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by Chris... on Jul 30, 2007 10:12 AM EDT
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Cue post-Tour scandal in three... two...
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Here you go . . .
German Antidoping investigator Werner Franke, has for a while been given full availability to all Operation Puerto documents. Today he explains to German Television, that there are clear proofs against Contador in the documents. AC is not only mentioned in document 31, but several other papers has listed this name. Werner Franke is able to proof that Contador was a client of Fuentes, and that he had a doping program including Insulin + Testosterone agent + Astma-medicine.
Werner Franke is accusing UCI for falsly deleting certain riders from the original list of implicated riders, and he speculates that UCI did a special deal with the legal court in Spain. He alledge that important political people in Spain has behaved very corrupt in this case. Finaly he explains, that he now sended all the court documents to the "BundeskriminalAmt" for further investigation by German police. There are also one fax from 2005, where medical treatment are described for Tour riders from Liberty Seguros, and here we again have Funetes writing the name AC. Today Jaksche confirmed to Süddeutche Zeitung, that Fuentes had a doping program for all Liberty riders, and that even U23 riders recieved Growth hormone + testosterone products.
www.zdf.de/ZDFsport/inhalt/25/0,5676,5579481,00.html
http://de.eurosport.yahoo.com/30072007/73/tour-de-france-groesster-schwindel-sportgeschichte.html
Links and english summary from a couple of posters on the team-csc website, one of whom notes he'll be very happy to see Sastre moved up to third, though I'm sure what a German prosecutor can do about a Spanish rider on an American funded team who just won a French race . . .
by ianmcw on Jul 30, 2007 10:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Blood evidence?
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/,tt8l3/sport/weitere/artikel/854/125664/
Germany's Sueddeutsche Zeitung reported on Saturday that Spanish authorities were allegedly in possession of a blood bag from the May 2006 raid with the initials A.C., which could stand for Alberto Contador. Contador is also quoted as saying (loosely translated), "why do I have to give my blood or DNA to someone? I don't have to prove anything to anybody for any reason because I am innocent." Anybody have a better translation?
Contador - Fuentes link NOT an error:
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-676968,36-940171@51-933069,0.html
A day before his victory here on Sunday, French newspaper Le Monde made claims that Contador's name was still linked to the Puerto affair. The Spaniard claims he is "100 percent clean". "I was in the wrong team at the wrong time and somehow my name got among the documents, but the UCI corrected the mistake and now I've got no link to Puerto," said Contador.
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-676968,36-940234@51-933069,0.html
"...the name of Alberto Contador was quoted in the file of the Puerto Operation, and not only by error, like it Süddeutsche Zeitung and Le Monde revealed."
And with the latest he dope on dope...
http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/13016.0.html
Franke claims "the greatest swindle in sporting history."
Further claims to have a detailed list of banned products used by Contador which appear in sworn statements following the raid on Fuentes' medical practice. "He took insulin, HMG-Lepori, a hormone to stimulate the secretion of testosterone and also a product for asthma called TGN - in brief I have before my eyes a protocol for doping," he told ZDF.
by Rydr1 on Jul 30, 2007 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Franke is Mayor McCrackpot in Looneyville
by Jens on Jul 30, 2007 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All you need to know
Sporting history? Credibility Auf'd.
by Chris... on Jul 30, 2007 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would AC have to give up TdF win?
Of course proof of the allegations would be very bad for AC but if there is no direct evidence tied to his 2007 TdF efforts, would he necessarily default the 2007 win or any other race results so far this year?
I'm not well versed on precedents but my sense is that when a rider is implicated for doping in prior years, only results in those races that would have been affected by the doping would be at risk.
by sawgrass on Jul 30, 2007 11:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It would be a first
I'm not sure what the German authorities could do in this case, even with full information. I suppose someone could take it to civil court, but I'm not sure what that would really accomplish.
I'd expect lots of blah blah in the press and heavy pressure on the UCI, but no action on this one. But things have taken some surprising turns lately, so who knows what will happen next.
One other tidbit: apparently Franke also has seen transcripts of a phone call between Contador and Fuentes. l'oops.
by gavia on Jul 30, 2007 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haven't seen it yet
Time to watch the German press for a bit here, I s'pect.
by gavia on Jul 30, 2007 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what to think?
Rasmussen rode away from everyone except Contador and Levi in the mountains.
Contador went through the Saiz school of cycling.
hmmm...
by KevinK on Jul 30, 2007 11:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sadly...
It's too bad, because he's clearly talented. He has a beautiful style on the bike. That kind of thing usually doesn't come entirely from the needle.
by gavia on Jul 30, 2007 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he should hurry
by KevinK on Jul 30, 2007 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Natural cause for suspicion?
* Miracle new climbing sensation potentially linked to Fuentes, a possible doping protocol, and possible blood bags.
Compare Contador's progression
* with that of Indurian, LA, Ullrich, Vino, and Basso's.
* with the normal progression of a Tour champion as described by his coach today...
Source: Carmichael Training Systems [newsletter@trainright.com]
"A top professional cyclist can have a career that spans 12-14 years, and sometimes a bit longer, but that time is often divided into phases. In their first few years, they're learning and gaining the endurance, skills, and confidence necessary to become champions. It takes time to even get to the point where you're racing three-week stage races. Before that, riders start out in shorter stage races, ranging from four to seven days in length, where they start establishing the racing and recovery techniques that will see them through longer events. Then they progress to one- to two-week stage races like Paris-Nice, the Tour of Germany, or Tour de Suisse. And then, typically, they get a chance to ride their first Grand Tour.
"The Tour de France is the hardest of the three Grand Tours (Tour de France, Tour of Italy, Tour of Spain). It's not that the course is more difficult or longer than the others, but that the intensity of the racing is higher and relentless. The Tour of Italy and Tour of Spain are better events for a young rider's first attempt at a three-week stage race, and like many other people I believe that a rider is fundamentally changed by finishing his first Grand Tour. It changes them physically, and most important, it changes them mentally. Finishing a Grand Tour is such a hard accomplishment that goals that once seemed far-fetched now seem more plausible.
"Cyclist's reach the peak fitness and accomplish their biggest feats during the second phase of their careers. Depending on the cyclist, this can be a short period of just one or two years, or it can be a long period of seven or eight years. And a lot of that comes down to the decisions individual riders make about their training, recovery, and race schedules. There have been countless riders who have won big races early in their careers and made bad decisions that shortened their tenure at the top of the sport. In recent years, we've seen a trend toward racing a little less frequently and focusing on a number of specific goals within a season. In the long run, I think this will help prolong the time that a champion can stay at the top of the sport." [quoted in part]
"You are not finished being amazed."
So here we go again, already on the second phase of his career, off the hospital bed and on to the top step of the podium of the Tour de France. 0 - 60 mph in 4 sec or less. Nice car. Even better training program.
by Rydr1 on Jul 30, 2007 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice Car Alright
by sylvan on Jul 31, 2007 2:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Teams with No Longitudinal Tests?
by KevinK on Jul 30, 2007 11:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Bahahahaha!
In all seriousness, no. I think I'd have a conversion experience if they did.
by gavia on Jul 30, 2007 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am joking
Germany is sour on the Tour, that's fer sure:
Bild reflected the disillusioned and increasingly disinterested mood towards the sport in Germany, publishing a crumpled photograph of Contador atop the podium on the Champs-Elysees, with the sub-heading: "Throw this winner's picture in the rubbish bin."
by KevinK on Jul 30, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Homerun?
Rough days for bike racing in Germany. "Tour without winner" is one of the headlines I saw. There are murmurings of troubles on the Tour of Germany front also. Not sure of the details on that though, as I haven't really been following it.
by gavia on Jul 30, 2007 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the only problem
I hope in future events, teams that don't subscribe to a credible testing program are flat out excluded. That would hopefully be an improvement.
by KevinK on Jul 30, 2007 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doubt the results will change
Any digging in the Puerto files will serve to discredit the winner and try to bar him from future racing.
Pending LLND finishing their stuff, the Tour is a done deal.
by gavia on Jul 30, 2007 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Benefit
My questions is - what should this testing catch?
by John.. on Jul 30, 2007 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends
In the case of CSC and Slippy, the testing protocol is more complete. They monitor hormonal levels or all sorts as well as blood values. The goal of full longitudinal testing like CSC, Slippy and the French federation is to establish baselines - a set of norms - for each rider. If any value varies from the norms the tests have established, the rider is pulled from active racing and subject to extra tests. Sometimes these variances might reveal doping, sometimes just physiological changes. At CSC, for ex., Arvesen turned up some unusual numbers; During the Giro, Damsgard threw every test in the book at him. D later said that Arv was probably the cleanest rider in the race, given the thoroughness of the testing he underwent.
CSC and Slippy are spending lots and lots of cash on this thing - like 500 000 euros a year in the case of CSC.
by gavia on Jul 30, 2007 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
blood doping, EPO
by KevinK on Jul 30, 2007 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This could be the end
That would be the good thing to come out of these allegations,if they turn out to be true.
The circumstantial evidence available seems to suggest a governing body going out of its way to cover up doping results.
(Not that this is at all unsurprising: track and field is in the same boat, and Football/soccer has a large yacht, otherwise they'd be in the boat too).
by R Mc on Jul 30, 2007 11:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What's the UCI motive?
Basso and Ullrich got whacked, why would the UCI have an interest in protecting Contador? What are the theories for the cover-up. I haven't heard any of this stuff, yet.
by KevinK on Jul 30, 2007 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point.
A proactive body would have taken steps, or allowed other entities to take steps to x-check the dna from those blood bags against current and former riders; would have pursued further action against Tyler Hamilton; you get my point . . .
My completely un-supported conclusion is that the rumored kickbacks from teams (or whoever) exist. It wasn't the UCI, after all, who busted Ullrich and Basso.
by R Mc on Jul 30, 2007 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
None
Jaksche's allegations sound worthless. When he says "they were all doing it," it sounds like he has no specific information about Contador, he's just assuming, which is a pretty crappy way of convicting someone. I'm not saying the connection isn't there: if Franke can point to a document that details what Fuentes was giving him, then there you have it. But the UCI theory is bizarre and Jaksche's allegations are reckless nonsense.
by Chris... on Jul 30, 2007 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guess we knew this was coming ....
http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap-vinokourovfired&prov=ap&type=lgns
by notaero on Jul 30, 2007 11:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
But IVino WAS the Astana
On the other hand (or in the other blood bag)next stop? Any guesses? Disco? TMob? Will he stay on the dark side or walk toward the light...?
America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed. -Eleanor Roosevelt
by ELVISGOAT on Jul 30, 2007 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree - I assumed we'd soon hear ..
Maybe Landis, Hamilton and Vino could revive the old Dean Martin, Jerry Lewis and Sammy Davis Jr. act?
by notaero on Jul 30, 2007 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sooner or later
by ianmcw on Jul 30, 2007 12:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
my guess is
I don't think it will pay to continue with the old school approach.
by KevinK on Jul 30, 2007 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
werner franke is a crackpot
Franke has nothing or else he would have kept his own copies. "AC nada o igual JJ" -- already public knowledge -- doesn't mean anything.
AC is in the Puerto file from last year (link below) along with the LS riders. But most of the initialized Liberty Seguros riders have attached docs detailing their (non-blood) doping programs. Contador doesn't have anything. Neither does Paulinho.
http://www.cycling4all.com/operacionpuerto06-2.pdf
Among Discovery signees, Allan Davis has docs prescribing EPO, HGH, and IGF-1. You might remember that Davis called a press conference to sign the UCI pledge before the Tour; he was the first Disco rider to sign. Probably he knew he was guilty of doping but that they didn't have his blood, so signing the doc would essentially clear him.
My guess is that Contador had a program similar to Davis. Insulin+testosterone+asthma TUE makes sense. But the blood bags were for estalished riders who had the money. I don't think Contador had his blood in a Fuentes bag.
by Mr 60 Percent on Jul 30, 2007 12:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Franke has claimed to have
by Jens on Jul 30, 2007 1:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
file this one in the sound & fury
by KevinK on Jul 30, 2007 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Saiz = Satan
by bike to live on Jul 30, 2007 1:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
I'm not saying that what the young dopers are doing isn't wrong. I just think that until the people with the money change it'll be difficult to rid cycling of the drugs.
by LD82 on Jul 30, 2007 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what choice for a Contador?
Guys like Vino and Jaksche had a choice -- they could have gone anywhwere but they went to Saiz for a reason.
But these working class Spanish kids can just hope to sign with a Relax, Kelme, or if they're lucky, Saunier Duval or ONCE/LS. A few of the Spanish are from middle class families like Sastre and Rubiera but most are poor, uneducated kids with no language skills destined for dead-end jobs. That was true of Indurain and Delgado, Heras, Mayo, Contador, and almost all the others.
Once they're signed up for Saiz, the lower-grade doping programs are assigned to them. Taking the step to blood doping is a personal decision, I suppose, but riding clean really isn't part of the deal. I imagine the same is true at Caisse, SD, and Euskaltel. Why did Astarloza get better when he came back from France?
I think some of the kids who leave that culture - from Sastre to Contador - deserve some slack. Maybe they're still doping but at least they broke away from a system that controlled them, where they had no real choice.
by Mr 60 Percent on Jul 30, 2007 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why did Astarloza get better when he came back fro
by R Mc on Jul 30, 2007 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting comment
Gerolsteiner team boss Hans-Michael Holczer was left exasperated at a meeting of team bosses before the race, by the lax attitude towards doping of some of his counterparts."A Spanish representative said 'we only take the medicine like other sports persons, that is not doping', I got up and left," he said.
source: http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/30072007/58/tour-de-france-cycling.html
by KevinK on Jul 30, 2007 1:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice summary of the ASO/UCI
by KevinK on Jul 30, 2007 2:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Finally
I would apologize to Prudhomme and Clerc for being wrong in this instance, but this is the first time I have seen any reference whatsoever to the regulations. ASO never seemed to explain why the onus was on the UCI to stop the Chicken. So they weren't wrong, they just did a crap job of being right.
by Chris... on Jul 30, 2007 2:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I still dont get it that Rass was taken out
by robin on Jul 30, 2007 2:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Looking for a comprehensive list
I was going to start a analytic study (for my own amusement) of what doping looks like, historically. By team, country, years as a pro, what event they were "caught in", % out of competition versus in-comp, type of PED used, length of suspension, etc.
Unless of course, someone has already compiled the analysis/dataset?
Thx.
by paolo on Jul 30, 2007 2:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's your list
by Rydr1 on Jul 30, 2007 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's another
by vitalizonal on Jul 30, 2007 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Found couple more
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operación_Puerto_doping_case
http://www.cycling4all.com/index.php?content=d_news13z.php (in English)
Like blood doping? Take a look at tomorrow's world of gene doping, courtesy of WADA. Let's keep our fingers crossed!
http://www.wada-ama.org/en/dynamic.ch2?pageCategory.id=529
by Rydr1 on Jul 30, 2007 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since this open thread - new topic ...
I think I've heard Hincapie, Leipheimer mentioned -- who else?
Do they have the sponsorship for serious '08 effort?
by notaero on Jul 30, 2007 3:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
3 confirmed
by Jens on Jul 30, 2007 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fix the problem, once and for all.
Let's face it, if OP guys had all been exposed, then none of those riders would have been in this year's Tour, as they would have been serving out their suspensions.
The solution to this mess is simple. The UCI needs to grow some stones, and root out the OP offenders. All riders should submit their DNA, and all the bags should be tested. If there is a match, your two year suspension starts on the date of the most recent blood bag. Also, if there is evidence, but not blood, then there is surely a date from which the suspension could be determined based on information in the documents. Any races won during the suspension period would be null and void. This could mean Vino's Vuelta, certainly Basso's Giro, and now possibly Contador's Tour, would be stricken from the books.
by Eric V on Jul 30, 2007 3:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Motherclucker, Iban Mayo busted for EPO
by Jens on Jul 30, 2007 3:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow...
Oh, and l'equipe has it this time ;-)
by gavia on Jul 30, 2007 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
on eurosport too
by roadside on Jul 30, 2007 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wim Vansevenant positive for valium
by Jens on Jul 30, 2007 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
by notaero on Jul 30, 2007 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like I picked the wrong week
by KevinK on Jul 30, 2007 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Might explain
by Rydr1 on Jul 30, 2007 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In non-Iban news, what happened to Spamnesty?
Does Contador's win effectively kill it?
Was the potential Puerto amnesty a reason for the UCI to quash any leaks on Contador's love of Eufemiano?
I'm getting to the point where I just want to see the UCI fold up its tent, go home, and give ASO a chance. If we'd done that years ago, 'The Flying Scotsman' could have been a longer movie, and my bike might be racing legal.
by Softie on Jul 30, 2007 4:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Question for everyone: how much EPO?
How does someone trigger the EPO test positive without also triggering the 50 hematocrit limit?
I know you need an 80% match on isoforms to be considered positive, but that 50% or higher is considered 'likely use.' That means a pretty large dose of EPO is needed to get caught.
If someone is triggering the 80% match, then their hematocrit probably is way up also....Seems likely that it would be over 50.
Does anyone know how much an 80% EPO match dose would increase hematocrit?
by Mr 60 Percent on Jul 30, 2007 4:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hematocrit
Thus hematocrit is not directly linkable to usage of epo.
by vitalizonal on Jul 30, 2007 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't know about the dosage
I wonder also if they aren't continuing to make the test more sensitive and adjusting the testing for previously "undetectable" variants of the drug.
The "trick" to using EPO as I understand it is to micro-dose yourself in the weeks-months before the big race to beat the test's sensitivity without also blowing your hematocrit into the red zone.
by Rydr1 on Jul 30, 2007 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Timing is the key
On the other hand the effect lasts up to half a year.
Try to catch those guys? And no wonder some endurance athletes like to train in remote locations away from testers.
by vitalizonal on Jul 30, 2007 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but there's a test for hemohes
Do cyclists still use hemohes?
by Mr 60 Percent on Jul 30, 2007 4:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
from Pez- Re:Bert
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=5174&status=True
America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed. -Eleanor Roosevelt
by ELVISGOAT on Jul 30, 2007 8:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So what
by Eric V on Jul 30, 2007 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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