On the Vick Media
[editor's note, by chris] Although I haven't promoted these kinds of stories which aren't about Cycling, I think there's a valid point here, and anyway it's a slow news day.
I'm watching ESPN and just about gagging.
Michael Vick plead guilty to participating in a dog fighting ring that tortured dogs to death.
Every commentator spent his time talking about how quickly Vick can get back to playing football, and wondering if he'll be in shape after he gets out of prison. What planet are these people from? I think there are some more pressing issues to discuss about this case--I guess it's a shock when the former "face of the NFL" turns out to be deeply involved in something so horrible:
According to the indictment, people betting on the fights established purses as high as $26,000, while dog owners and spectators made side bets. The fights lasted until a dog was killed or it surrendered. Losing dogs, along with those deemed unsuitable for fighting, were sometimes killed by drowning, hanging, beating, shooting or electrocution, the indictment said.
from: Bloomberg
I can wrap my brain around PED use, or recreational drug use, the random DUI, or reckless driving charge. I just can't get my head around this.
Peace summary of facts
Phillips summary of facts
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Bold statement
Those lines in the others' plea deals about Vick financing and participating in gambling will earn him a lifetime ban.
Especially in the context of Donaghy's plea in the NBA, the NFL will be hyper-vigilant about the gambling issue . . .
Hehehe
by Drew on Aug 23, 2007 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
ugh!
This dude killed dogs for entertainment--possibly with his own hands! That's not a mistake, that's evil. At minimum, he should be banned for life. Fuck him.
Attitude
When time comes, the first team that can, will hire him, Nike will release his shoe and all will be good.
As my boss said, "There have been murderers in the NFL. Do you think the NFL cares about some fucking dogs?"
Case in point, the Commission is running it's own "investigation".
also
NFL
by Waddy on Aug 20, 2007 9:37 PM EDT reply actions
I would say
by Peter Fontecchio on Aug 20, 2007 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
No problem
by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 21, 2007 7:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Prediction
I stopped following the National Felon league years ago! The whole league is an embarrassment to the planet!
To bring it back to cycling
You hear many ESPN commentators slam cycling for drug problems, but none of them worries all that much about this horror show--did the Falcons management know that Vick had animal cruelty as a hobby? If they did, that's many shades worse than a DS turning a blind eye to doping.
Systematic issues?
Either way, what I find stunning in this and the Giambi cases is the complete lack of responsibility and accountability. Giambi is an admitted cheater, probably on a massive scale (loser to MVP-level). He'd be a four-year absentee if he were in Cycling, automatically. Baseball? "he seems nice, let's forget it." Vick, we'll see, but the accountability starts with the media, who won't lift a finger til the fans speak up. In Cycling, all of that has happened. In football and baseball, the fans haven't said bubkis, so the media won't either.
I have a much larger rant about this, but it involves both politics and religion, so I'd better skip it.
by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 21, 2007 7:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd suspect
I cringe every time I hear Randy Jackson say Dawg, or hear of Calvin Broadus (Snoop Dogg)--cuz all of that comes from a culture that sees the fighting dog as some sort of weird cultural hero and role model.
Some comments I've read
I am guessing more of these stories will start to come out during the season. Vick was doing this for five years before he was caught by accident. I doubt it would have taken much effort to find if some reporter were out there digging around. My guess is there are several reporters out there right at the moment driving around looking for these places.
It's interesting to contemplate what the NFL will do if/when several players are found to be involved in dog fighting.
not so fast . . .
that's true, though
To frame it more generally, do teams and the league that they're in have any special responsibility for oversight of their employees off-field conduct? It's a tricky issue. Especially in this case--I am guessing that coaches and players in the Falcons organization knew that Vick was doing this, but they didn't fire him, or report him to the cops.
The NFL has been successful at deflecting players' criminal behavior away from the league and the teams.
I haven't watched ESPN with any regularity since
by Peter Fontecchio on Aug 21, 2007 6:31 AM EDT reply actions
Networks never mess with the NFL
And work it, they do
The new deal is that up to 11 games a week will be streamed online. Great news for the legions of fans who can't get the DirecTV satellite service or don't want to switch their TV provider just to have their choice of NFL games to watch on 17 of the 52 Sundays in a year. Right?Kinda puts Cycling.tv in perspective, doesn't it?Wrong. The deal is only good if you already subscribe to NFL Sunday Ticket, which, in the second most fan-unfriendly deal in North American team sports, is available for $269 but only to DirecTV subscribers. And! You also have to subscribe to the $99 add-on bell-and-whistle package known as SuperFan. Also, it doesn't work on a Mac.
I'm not the first
The cold truth is that more people
that's true
The dogs depend on their owners and handlers for food, water, etc... They have no recourse, and no escape. So, these guys, possibly Vick, derived joy from inflicting pain, and ending the life of a sentient being that depended on them.
I agree
Ugg. How depraved can you get?
It's revolting
Here's one of the more sane comments from Frank Deford at NPR:
There has been some muted protest that Michael Vick has been suspended too precipitously by the National Football League and unfairly stripped of his rich endorsements, before the indictments against him for dogfighting and dog-killing could be settled in court.However, given the heinous charges against Vick, it is difficult to imagine any public company -- yours, for example? -- that would blithely keep such an employee till the government had gotten round to working things out with him.
Not any different than doing the same to a
Here in Kansas we have been
Scruffy was shot with a pellet rifle, placed in a plastic bag, doused with flammable liquid, set on fire while still alive and beaten repeatedly with a shovel. The perpetrators videotaped the whole event.
and the weak sentencing that followed:
On June 27, 1997, four boys allegedly tortured, burned and beat to death a 12-year old Yorkshire Terrier named Scruffy.
Admittedly acting out of "boredom", the perpetrators recorded the entire killing and distributed the 6-minute videotape to their friends.
Jose Gutierrez, age 17
Admitted to videotaping the incident.
Convicted: animal cruelty, felony arson
2 years probation and psychiatric evaluation
Marcus Rodriguez, age 18
Convicted: animal cruelty, 1 year county jail.
Convicted: felony arson, 2 years, 3 months prison.
Eligible for parole after 2 years.
Richard Golubski, age 20
Admitted in court to choking and pouring a flammable liquid on the dog. Denied further involvement.
Convicted: animal cruelty, felony arson
2 years probation and psychiatric evaluation.
Lance Arsenalt, age 21 "the Leader"
Convicted: animal cruelty, 1 year county jail.
Convicted: felony arson, 1 year, 10 months prison.
Eligible for parole after 2 years.
If it had not been for the ability to bring the felony arson charges because they set fire to the little guy then there would have been little or no serious punishment available under the law.
As a Yorkie owner and animal lover I was physically sick when they showed clips (yes, actual clips of the torture) on the evening news. My first reaction was to do the same thing back to the guys that did it. If someone ever did something like that to my dog a literally do not know what I would do to them. I personally will never watch another game of NFL even if Vick does not come back because of their weak stance on allowing so many acknowledged criminals get away with the things that they do. It is no wonder that it seems like the younger generation at times has no respect for anything. Look at the examples they have paraded in front of them.
</Rant Off>
What to say?
Second... I'm exhausted with these Vick revelations. They are so awful... Vick's conduct has been so selfish... I don't believe that people are born evil but they sure can get twisted as both Michael Vick and his brother are.
Something I noticed in this that is similar to cycling occurred on the Sunday Night Football halftime show where they were discussing Vick. (This happened the night before the plea agreement.) Bob Costas asked Tiki Barber about the possibility of Vick "rolling over" on other players being involved and Tiki's eyes to me got real big and said no way will Vick out any other player as he knows that would make him the enemy of every other player in the league.... Omerta at its worst folks. Its in every sport and to honestly expect it to really end in cycling in a comprehensive way is not realistic.
I just don't know...
I do worry when dogs get more concern than humans. It isn't that the dogs don't deserve concern, but I can't see my way clear to prioritize a pet over a person. I can see how and why people do, but it still seems odd to me when cruelty to animals unites a nation when cruelty to humans is accepted as "just one of those things".
Again, I'm not criticizing anyone for helping animals or punishing those who abuse them, but something seems out of balance to me. Sort of like when people rushed to New Orleans after Katrina to rescue pets when people were still suffering, in danger, and in need. I fully believe that the animals deserved rescue, but never before humans. I guess there is just a limited amount of concern available and an unlimited amount of cruelty and injustice in the world. I choose to prioritize my concern for people above my concern for pets.
I guess where the rubber hits the road, I think that Vick's behavior toward animals in deplorable, but things like partner abuse or child abuse are unacceptable. When it comes to righting the wrongs of this life, people first, pets second. So I'm glad Vick is being held accountable for his actions, but I'm not going to make him out to be the worst sports villain ever. For example, Jonathan Boyer's (first American to ride the TdF) crime was much worst than Vick's.
One reason for prioritizing concern
"According to a 1997 study done by the Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA) and Northeastern University, animal abusers are five times more likely to commit violent crimes against people and four times more likely to commit property crimes than are individuals without a history of animal abuse."
I just grabbed that one off the internet, there are hundreds more like it that show the same type of statistics.
Agree with Koppenburg on the Katrina statistic, although I have to say there are organizations whose goal is geared toward animal advocacy. They have the resources to go in and rescue the animals, but may not have the resources to help rescue people (i.e., they have crates and leashes at their disposal, but no people food.) So they do what they can.
Yeah
If Vick had been raising pigs instead of dogs and eaten them after he killed them, we'd call him a farmer. I don't understand why it is ok to raise a cow, pig, or sheep for food in California, but not a horse or a dog or a cat. I'm not inclined to eat horse or dogs or cats, or even guinea pigs (cuy) which are the national dish of Ecuador. But I can't see why pet animals create a moral line that doesn't affect other animals.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't disagree that Vick should go to jail or that cruelty to animals is something that isn't in our common interest to punish. BUT I guess I see the concern we show for dogs over pigs, cows, and chickens is a cultural construct. I'm not sure I see a difference between killing a cow to make a brooks saddle and killing a dog in a fighting ring. Or rather I feel a difference, but I can't explain it logically. Since I can't logically explain it, I'm hesitant to crucify someone who sees things differently than I do.
Ding.
If Vick had been raising pigs instead of dogs and eaten them after he killed them, we'd call him a farmer.That is absolutely spot on. I'm a quiet vegetarian (that is, I'll almost never discuss the issue unless seriously engaged on it), but watching people flip out over what happened to these dogs (which is appalling) while being seemingly completely oblivious to what goes on in a meat processing plant is something that does tempt me to get going on the issue. All that said, I'm right there with you on prioritizing people over animals. See my link earlier in the thread.
It would be spot on
As for prioritizing people over animals; I'm not inclined to think that it's necessary to solve the injustices of the world in rank order in order to effect some progress.
I think the strong reaction to this case stems from the surprise that a star athlete is so thoroughly involved in something so toxic, and the general tendency for rich athletes to get away with heinous behavior.
There are differences
Vick will not go to jail for killing dogs, he's going for the inhuman manor in which he treated and killed dogs, along with gambling, tax evasion, and everything else that goes along with running an illegal business.
well
As another Vegetarian I will 2nd
As a vegan,
But, if folks need a more emotional experience of the the agribusiness/farming industry issue, watch the last 15 minutes of Fast Food Nation (the whole beginning bit is pretty crappy) or read the book of the same name (which is excellent). Or Omnivore's Dilemma. Or Diet for a Small Planet.
Also, check out organicathlete.com.
Ok, sorry, I'm done now.
oh
No argument...
Here's another resource: http://www.veganfitness.net/
Fast food nation was lacking in
and to echo omnivores
(Actually, if I lived next door to San Francisco's Millennium restaurant, I'm sure I could live a pretty damn good one, as a vegan.)
Understand, but
At least we know
by Drew on Aug 23, 2007 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions

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