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Foul Fowl Fouled Fairly

If you were wringing your hands about ~:>'s summary expulsion from the Tour, you can breathe easy now:

Danish cyclist Michael Rasmussen, who was kicked out of the Tour de France for evading doping controls, had traces of a blood-boosting substance in his system when tested during the race, the French sports daily L'Equipe reported Friday.

from: laykeep

[editor's note, by chris] See also Eurosport

0 recs  |  Comment 14 comments

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This makes me happy
I think I read this elsewhere - EPO, apparently

by BDBrian on Sep 28, 2007 2:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

dynEPO
i.e rEPO from human rather than animal cells, and therefore not catchable in the urine test.

Cycling news blurb says the French lab has seen ten blood tests indicating dynEPO in the past year.

I assume this means high reticuloctye count and relatively high hematocrit/hemoglobin combined with a urine test negative.  That would be no more a chargeable offense than low reticulocytes/high hemoglobin for autologous blood doping.

so what does the lab get to announce, oh, by the way, rasmussen was positive for dynEPO? what about the others?

one could say something similar about the weird test results for diluca and company at the giro --if there is no specific violation, what lets uci announce it?

by Mr 60 Percent on Sep 28, 2007 3:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Wow
Let's see... evading controls, two minute improvement in his time trialling... who knew? For once, though, it's nice to close the book. Imagine if he'd stayed in and won, and now this came out? Disaster!

by Chris... on Sep 28, 2007 3:44 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

technicality...
http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/breves2007/20070928_082618Dev.html

''Mais, problème : si médicalement, ces tests sont positifs, juridiquement, ils ne le sont pas. La Dynepo et ses avatars sont parfaitements connus des laboratoires antidopage, et leur signature repérable, mais ayant été créées bien après que les critères de positivité ont été élaborés, ces hormones ne peuvent mener, en l'état actuel de la législation, à une déclaration de positivité.''

If I'm reading this correctly, the gist of it is... There's a problem.  Even if the tests are positive, they wouldn't be judged so.  Dynepo is well-known among the labs, but it was created well after the anti-doping criteria were established, so this test result can't lead to a positive declaration given the state of the rules.

Cycling is so weird.

-Greg

by gregm on Sep 28, 2007 3:51 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes...
You are reading it correctly.

The science guys can detect the substance, but the lawyers are lagging on defining what constitutes a rules violation.

And yes, cycling is wierd.

by gavia on Sep 28, 2007 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dynepo
My understanding is that because Dynepo is derived from human cells it is difficult to distinguish it's use from naturally produced ... 'blood stuff' [I ran out of big words to use].  

by Hons on Sep 28, 2007 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Confused
I am not a scientist and the report at cyclingnews is a bit confusing to me.  Here are the parts I find interesting:

While legally not a violation of the anti-doping code, Danish rider Michael Rasmussen was found to have taken Dynepo  in the 2007 Tour de France.

...the WADA criteria of positivity of a test [for Dynepo] are not yet adapted to the advances in the pharmaceutical market.

It sounds like it is impossible to have a positive test from taking Dynepo because there are no standards for what constitutes a positive sample.

Could they create a list of approved supplements?

by John.. on Sep 28, 2007 4:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Uh...
You want them to be able to take EPO?  The substance they found is human-derived EPO, which works just like the other kind.  I can't say I'd be cheering for legalizing it.

If I have time later I might have a look see at the full article.  It is possible to download the paper edition of laykeep as a pdf for 1 euro.  Maybe the full article has some more info about the test and whathaveyou.

by gavia on Sep 28, 2007 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Slippery Slope?
Then why ban Autogulous Blood Doping?
Racing for Victory and Free Beer!

by DemonCats on Sep 28, 2007 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe I wasn't clear...
Not in favor of legalizing at all.

Now, if the science guys could just find themselves a way to test for autol other than by the on-off thingy.

by gavia on Sep 28, 2007 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No such thing as a dumb question?
Is this dynepo (human derived EPO) as potentially harmful to the athletes as the artifical/animal EPO?

I'm not OK with doping...but when do they need to draw the line?  Caffine, ginsing, high altitude tents, etc.?
Does anyone remember the quote from one of the Dick-Pouning-anti-doping-crusader who said something to the effect that they wanted to ban "anything that gives an athelete an advantage".  (Would that include hard training, recon of the course, good nutrition,rest, better equipment, etc.?)

by Keithfbcyl on Sep 28, 2007 5:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

EPO, testing, etc.
The cut-off for any medical test is artificial, in some sense.  There's a trade-off between "false positives" and "false negatives."  Usually, a test doesn't go on the market unless that balance is achievable and definable.  

For medical purposes, the cut-off us commonly set so that either the total error rate or the "false positive" error rate is slightly below 1%.  When doctor's say "the test could be wrong" or "we want to do more tests," that's where the uncertainty comes from.  (It's also why, if you take your healthy pet to the vet, and the vet talks you into doing 50 tests "just to see if there are any hidden problems," there's a pretty good chance that one will come back positive...cost you lots of cash tracking down the problem...and turn out to be a false positive.  But I digress.)

Anyway, a doctor can recognize that results are truly, freakishly outlandish, in terms of absolute numbers, but not have an official cut-off (because the doping agent is new enough that they don't have a strict cut-off for false positives and false negatives.

The legal issue is again separate:  How much alcohol can you have in your blood, and still drive?  Depends on where you are.  Are you functionally drunk at that level?  Depends on where you are, and on who you are.

On a separate issue, my understanding (because I have not seen the original lit) is that at least part of danger from EPO has the same source as the benefit of EPO, namely, proliferation of red blood cells.  When the heart is going all-out, having RBC sludge for blood is useful.  When the heart is at rest (and for elite athletes, that's a very low heartrate indeed), the blood-sludge just doesn't move enough.  

What the body senses when you feel breathless isn't oxygen deprivation, it's excess CO2. (I should say, that's what it senses acutely and directly. That's why if you pop up to high altitude, you can pass out if you don't remember to breathe.) I'm guessing that RBC sludge doesn't alter removal of CO2 all that much (CO2 dissolves fine in blood).  If that's true, any means of suddenly boosting RBC's way, way past their normal level would be about equally dangerous.  (Altitude / tents would be less sudden, and presumably allow the body to excercise some feedback control.)

I'm just hypothesizing, but with supportive evidence to back it up. For example, lower levels of EPO are used all the time, for example in cancer patients following chemo...and they are not usually in stellar physical condition, by that point.  So the EPO per se is presumably not the problem.

Same with other "boosters." Sure, pro cyclists beat hell out of themselves.  But so did the hunters, subsistence farmers, messengers, etc. in our past.  We've had a lot of selective pressure to optimize our biochemical functions.  As a result, anything that we can use to artificially boost function, short term,  will probably "take down our fitness" in the long term.  And I mean that in the sense of "live less long, less healthily, and /or interfere with reproduction."  Like, for example, boosting our risk of dropping dead.

P.S.  Thinking about it...I'm betting alcohol or other relaxants don't help, either, when you're at the edge.

--JFS

by JFS_PGH on Sep 28, 2007 8:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Why take the lab's word for this?
Not even WADA, whose standards are on the low side, has approved tests for this substance yet.  

by ghisallo on Sep 29, 2007 10:20 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Makes my blood boil!
Must say I got very angry when I heard this news.

It's the same as always with the French, the Chatenay Malabry lab and L'Equipe. The lab director blabs to a reporter and just happens to mention the name Rasmussen.
Oh, why not? He's down and out, so why not kick him some more?

I just hate this kind of news. Not because of the fact that it's about doping, that's life. Some of the riders do. I can accept that, they get banned when caught.

There should be rules to this kind of 'publishing facts'. I'm not defending Rasmussen, nor any other rider, but I just think you can't come out calling a name and saying that there's nine more without revealing their names too. Then consider the fact that they can't even test for DynEPO, just because a test isn't developed yet to make sure of usage of the product. So, are they guessing that something's wrong, or what? And they take themselves seriously as a laborotory?
Now it looks like ASO did the right thing when they didn't have any clue, but just didn't like the situation at that time.

I, for one, will never buy a L'Equipe paper. The way people take part in a selective slander campaign, captained by monsieurs Prudhomme and Clerc, executed by L'Equipe and the infamous lab makes my blood boil, even without EPO!

by DZI on Oct 3, 2007 6:59 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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