The drugs don't work

by Luz Ardiden on Jan 10, 2008 2:09 PM EST

Drugs make you slower.

Just look at the Tour de France results (top 10 of each year) when Lance was riding. Almost all the people that managed to get close to beating him, plus significant people that rode for him - Basso, Vinokourov, Hamilton, Landis, Heras, etc. - have been implicated in scandal. And he beat them all. Clearly they just don't work.

[Riders have been caught, more or less]

2005 - Armstrong6, Basso11, Ullrich11, Mancebo11, Vinokourov6,10,12, Leipheimer6, Rasmussen12, Evans10, Landis6,13, Pereiro2

2004 - Armstrong, Kloden3,10, Basso, Ullrich, Azevedo9, Mancebo, Totschnig10, Sastre7,9, Leipheimer, Pereiro

2003 - Armstrong, Ullrich, Vinokourov, Hamilton11,18, Zubeldia, Mayo12, Basso, Moreau8,14, Sastre, Mancebo

2002 - Armstrong, Beloki5,8,9, Rumsas15, Botero7,11, Gonzalez de Galdeano9, Azevedo, Mancebo, Leipheimer, Heras7,11,17, Sastre

2001 - Armstrong, Ullrich, Beloki, Kivilev1, Gonzalez de Galdeano, Simon1, Sevilla7,10,11, Botero, Serrano7,11, Boogerd

2000 - Armstrong, Ullrich, Beloki, Moreau, Heras, Virenque8,14, Botero, Escartin7, Mancebo, Nardello

1999 - Armstrong, Zulle8,9,14, Escartin, Dufaux8,14, Casero8,11, Olano6,8, Nardello, Virenque, Belli8, Peron

(1) Just lucky! Huge breakaway on stage 8 of 2001 Tour.
(2) Tour win in 2006 has been followed by almost total obscurity.
(3) Kloden was keen to move from T-Mobile (where almost all of the team at the time had admitted to taking drugs) to Astana, just when they went clean, and just before most of Astana got caught.
(4) Oil for drugs case, Di Luca, etc.
(5) Beloki was implicated in Puerto, as was Contador (while they were with Liberty Seguros), but they have both since been cleared. Interestingly Isidro Nozal from Astana was cleared at the same time.
(6) Associated with Dr. Ferrari: Armstrong, Olano, Vinoukorov, Landis, Sinkewitz, Mazzoleni, Hincapie, Savoldelli, etc.
(7) Rode for infamous Kelme squad: S.Perez, Manzano, Zaballa, CG Quesada, Valverde, A.Gonzalez(banned after 2005 Vuelta), JE Gutierrez, D.Etxebarria, Sastre, Rubiera, Sevilla, Botero, Escartin, M.Serrano, Vicioso and Heras
(8) Fode for infamous Festina squad: Belli, Olano, Virenque, Beloki, Casero, Moreau and Zulle.
(9) Rode for Saiz at ONCE: Olano, Zulle, Gonzalez de Galdeano, Johan Bruyneel, Beloki, Azevedo, M.Serrano, Sastre, Jaksche, Nozal and Vicioso
(10) Totschnig rode with Bjarne Riis and Ullrich at Telekom. Joined later by Sevilla, Livingston, Kloden, Evans and Vinokourov.
(11) Caught by Puerto: Manolo Saiz, Fuentes, Zaballa, Jaksche, Manzano, Basso, Scarponi, Hamilton, Ullrich, Mancebo, Botero, Serrano, JE Guttierez, Sevilla, Casero, Heras, S.Perez, Vicioso, Gonzalez de Galdeano...
(12) Caught during 2007 TdF
(13) Caught during 2006 TdF
(14) Caught during Festina affair
(15) Caught during 2002 TdF
(16) Caught before 2005 Dauphine Libre
(17) Caught during 2005 Vuelta
(18) Caught during 2005 Vuelta

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Comments

Awesome!

This a fantastic way to display the notion of how riddled with dopers the TdF was during the Armstrong era. Brilliant!

by humboldt on Jan 10, 2008 2:45 PM EST reply actions

In the Soup

I've always taken the position that Lance isn't doing anything to implicate himself, but his problem consists of the circumstances of his wins, over which he has no control, and which have grown much dimmer in the last 3 years. I like Lance, I want to believe Lance... but the above is an illustration of simple, basic, and rather damning fact.

by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 10, 2008 2:51 PM EST reply actions

That

drugs DO work :(

by lucybears on Jan 10, 2008 4:22 PM EST up reply actions

Have you eaten yet today?

Racing for Victory and Free Beer!

by DemonCats on Jan 10, 2008 4:44 PM EST up reply actions

Right back

at ya

by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 10, 2008 7:23 PM EST up reply actions

With

Lil'MATT DeCanio
http://su13.us/

by lucybears on Jan 10, 2008 7:31 PM EST up reply actions

or

The new Astana team is "not a copy of Discovery Channel," said the new General Manager of the squad, Johan Bruyneel. "The general situation of the sport does not allow this."
The 'Bruyneel philosophy'
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/jan08/jan05news

by lucybears on Jan 10, 2008 7:39 PM EST up reply actions

Awesome analysis

Wow, that Lance was really good wasn't he...?

America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed. -Eleanor Roosevelt

by ELVISGOAT on Jan 10, 2008 4:48 PM EST reply actions

Unfortunately...

the ugly fact is that LA most probably was on just as many PED's as his competition.

Yeah, people will still say that he is an anamoly, his heart is 30% bigger than a normal heart, largest VO2 MAX ever measured, yadda yadda yadda, but the fact is that most likely he and all of the Blue Train were on something.

Like Chris Horner has pointed out that there is a reason that the Blue Train would arrive intact at the bottom of the last climb of a monster stage. Why did they never do that once Lance was gone and the climate against doping.

That plus the re-testing of his old samples some years ago, or plus the Andreu's testifying or chasing down Simeoni and accusing him of trying to destroy the sport by talking to the anti-doping authorities.

You may not want to, but I will...

Lance Armstrong you are a DOPEEE!!! And no statements to the contrary, or that you are the most tested athlete ever, or the fact that you never failed a dope test, will make me believe othewise.

I feel better now!

Racing for Victory and Free Beer!

by DemonCats on Jan 10, 2008 4:51 PM EST reply actions

correction--

Ed Coyle's articles (quoted in Walsh's from Lance to Landis and many other places) note the rather interesting anomaly that Armstrong's VO2 figures are not particularly impressive for world class athletes.

(And that the rumored post-cancer weight loss is a magnificent bit of smoke and mirrors . . .)

by R Mc on Jan 10, 2008 5:03 PM EST up reply actions

I always wondered...

why the Pro Peloton didn't drop EPO and just start using chemo and radiation therapies?

Racing for Victory and Free Beer!

by DemonCats on Jan 10, 2008 5:08 PM EST up reply actions

Leipheimer

was busted in the 90s. Supposedly an innocent mistake, but he probably deserves a footnote.

by Softie on Jan 10, 2008 4:57 PM EST reply actions

Strikethrough, not footnote

by Softie on Jan 10, 2008 4:58 PM EST reply actions

And lets not forget the

back-dated TUE for Armstrong.

Amazing how good the blue train PR machine was.... most tested athlete ?!?! largest VO2 Max ?!?

by lyne on Jan 10, 2008 5:13 PM EST reply actions

Hacked-off. Continually hacked-off.

That's what a small group of pro cyclist fans will be as they see Lance Armstrong's political career go forward with all the force of his Tour wins.

I say give it a rest. Its in the past and if he ever gets implicated (yeah, right) or not will not change any of our lives one bit. Lets see if we can clean up the sport now.

by ursula on Jan 10, 2008 5:53 PM EST reply actions

Ho Hum

Why not go back further than 1999? And why not post in your real name Luz Ardiden? Oh I see, maybe that is your real name.

by hcp on Jan 10, 2008 5:59 PM EST reply actions

You gonna call him/her

a "Surrender Monkey" next?

America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed. -Eleanor Roosevelt

by ELVISGOAT on Jan 10, 2008 6:07 PM EST up reply actions

real name

So you're a member of Lance's legal team, I take it?

by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 10, 2008 6:22 PM EST up reply actions

I can think of only a couple of people

in the whole history of the world that I admire as much as I admire Lance Armstrong. These are my assumptions. I think he used PED's when he was a young man, and I think that is what gave him cancer. I think once he recovered from cancer and decided to get back on the bike, that he found alternate ways to improve his performance that did not involve taking PED's. I think that one of the ways he improved his performance was not legal, but was also not detectable at the time that he was racing, and was also not a drug.

I also think that another one of the reasons that Lance won so many tours is because he rode his freakin' bicycle Every Freakin' Day. Year round. He lived, ate, trained Tour de France for seven years. I don't know anybody else who has that kind of dedication to a sport.

Those ASSUMPTIONS being made, I still have an extra ordinary amount of admiration for what he did on the bike, and what he continues to do off the bike. I could care less about who he spends time with, what he wears to nightclubs, or any other aspect of his personal life. I admire him and what he stands for, and all the assumptions in the world won't change my opinion of the man.

Don't tase me, bro

by bethie on Jan 10, 2008 6:49 PM EST reply actions

I think...

all of the above rode their bikes just as much. It's not like they're sitting around eating potato chips, take a shot and next thing you know, they are on the podium.

Racing for Victory and Free Beer!

by DemonCats on Jan 10, 2008 9:36 PM EST up reply actions

Yes, of course you must be referring to

Jan Ullrich, second runner up three times, who spent seven winters training and watching his diet. ;-)

Don't tase me, bro

by bethie on Jan 10, 2008 10:52 PM EST up reply actions

exception:

Ullrich rode the couch more than the bike some off-seasons and still landed on the podium.

by huy on Jan 10, 2008 10:59 PM EST up reply actions

Well said...

I want to believe, and Lance had enough factors in his favor to let us continue believing. He inspired me to get into this sport, so I'm not giving up hope.

by dheadrick on Jan 10, 2008 10:49 PM EST up reply actions

Sorry mutual admiration society

Just find postings like this tedious, and didn't realize that voicing this opinion wasn't welcome. Since Chris has made me feel so... welcome, off I go. Carry on...

by hcp on Jan 10, 2008 6:52 PM EST reply actions

Your opinion

is always welcomed. From the comments I'd think you can see there's a range of opinions here. But telling posters to use their real name isn't especially cool.

by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 10, 2008 7:31 PM EST up reply actions

I thought Julich was on the 2003 podium

Did you not include him because he's clean? (Then why Kivilev?)

Confused.

by NE Observer on Jan 10, 2008 7:08 PM EST reply actions

Oops, my mistake

and a dumb one. Julich was 1998, the Festina year -- I knew that.

by NE Observer on Jan 12, 2008 8:14 PM EST up reply actions

Merckx

Whenever I see this I get real suspicious about Lance doping, but then I think about people like Merckx who was so astoundingly superior. It happens.

Either Merckx took the same stuff as everyone else in the peloton, or he took mineral water and everyone else doped. Either way I think Eddy would have won...a lot. His margin over the peloton was that great.

I don't think it is even that rare that one person is so much above everyone else. It seems to happen a lot, in all sports.

So it is believable that Lance won against dopers while not taking dope. But what Ursula says...what's done is done.

by 12string on Jan 10, 2008 7:11 PM EST reply actions

Hey you can't leave yet . . .

we haven't even gotten to the minor detail that six of Armstrong's 99 urine samples came up + for epo. You can't leave yet--or perhaps you have to go help brief that other Texan role model for his congressional appearance . . .

by R Mc on Jan 10, 2008 7:15 PM EST reply actions

Lance, doped?

Surely he must because every other person he rode against zzzzzzzzzzzz.

Seems like we could just sticky this post 'cause it's come up every 6 weeks since before the '06 Tour.

Wake me for Het Volk, or anything interesting.

p.s., R Mc, Competitor's Radio has a great interview with Walsh, a two-parter good for long rides, that in my opinion is much better than his book. Although you can tell Walsh has a huge blind spot for his man Sean Kelly...

by 72andSunny on Jan 10, 2008 7:28 PM EST reply actions

thanks

got both of 'em (and the long interview with Lemond also).

My fave of all of the competitor's shows though is one of the Davis Phinney interviews where he tells the story of just making the time cut to Alp D'Huez as "his greatest victory."

by R Mc on Jan 10, 2008 8:39 PM EST up reply actions