Paris-Tours... LIVE!
Man, talk about a war of attrition: 250km over some slightly rolling terrain, in mid-October. Obviously Paris-Tours is an important race, and the sprinters haven't had much fun in a while, save Paris-Brussels, so there will be some pretty keyed-up racing. If they can get to Tours intact, this race will come down to a bunch sprint for glory. But the conditions are ripe for a breakaway, and there's a pretty solid history of such tactics working. The result: about 30km or so of a really good chess match, with at least half the teams involved.
Teams desperate to maintain order: Liquigas (Bennati); Quick Step (Boonen, Allan Davis); Rabo (Freire); Silence (McEwen); Milram (force of habit).
Teams looking for a free ride from the teams in the first category: this category consists of teams who can win in a bunch sprint but probably won't feel overly compelled to do the work, if only because they KNOW the names of 4-5 teams who are sure to take over. Reason number 4,238 to love cycling: the way every team's strategy is in part a reaction to the strategies of at least five other teams. Anyway... Columbia is in here: with Eisel stepping in for Ciolek (ill), they can stick someone else on the front for a change. Garmin, I suppose I'd like to see them focus on getting Tyler Farrar in the final sprint, but like Columbia they won't have to chase down breaks for that chance. Euskaltel (Fernandez), AG2R (Usov), Cred Ag (Renshaw) and Gerolsteiner (Haussler) will be looking for an escort to the last km too.
Teams bent on madness: This is the list of teams which can and should be looking for the right escape: Cofidis (Nuyens), FdJeux (Gilbert!), Lampre (Ballan), CSC (pick a name); Tinkoff (Ignatiev?) and well, everyone else.
Should be fun. Video at Eurosport, probably other sources. Check Cyclingfans.com ASAP!
Comments
I kinda love this race.
I just searched YouTube for some video of Dicky V winning in, what was it, 2001? I swear that moment lives for me right alongside the miracle 8 second thing on the Champs in ‘89 and I didn’t even get to see Dicky’s ride—just read about it on CN! Anyway, I didn’t find video of the 2001 race.
But this race proves that riders make races, and hills sometimes make riders afraid to race (unless your name contains an allusion to the color green)… Check the list of winners for Paris-Tours. There are a few chumps, and Eddy never quite got over, but the list is pretty. Riders like Tafi and Dekker, Sorenen, Museeuw, Durrand and Tchmil. The sprinter’s classic? Maybe, but also a race for the very hard.
I’ll be rooting for Senor Flecha.
Vive la Paris-Tours!
Never, ever, work with a sprinter.
by Put 'Em in the Gutter on
Oct 12, 2008 4:05 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Zabel's riding?
another last race
by cyclingchallenge on
Oct 12, 2008 4:53 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Gilbert will win, or i'm happy for benna or pippo
or bring on ummmm so many choices
by CycleGirl on
Oct 12, 2008 6:41 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
oh ps
when I called Gilbert for Worlds I actually meant Paris-Tours ;)
by plinytheelder on
Oct 12, 2008 7:16 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Five riders 10’05" up the road after seventy klicks. Lucas Euser and David Zabriskie (Garmin), Sebastien Delfosse (Landwouwkrediet), Cyril Lemoine (Credit Agricole) and Tom Veelers (Skil).
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on
Oct 12, 2008 7:22 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on
Oct 12, 2008 7:24 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Race Poster - classy

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on
Oct 12, 2008 8:07 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
live vid soon
alfa sport has a runner that says PT live after tennis
by Choo Choo on
Oct 12, 2008 9:05 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
link?
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on
Oct 12, 2008 9:09 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
live feed
anyone noticed that the tennis match on eurosport has just started….that’s not a good sign
by bradBordeaux on
Oct 12, 2008 9:12 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
i've got tennis (france) and there's monfils in the final...don't think they'll be paris tours for me
by bradBordeaux on
Oct 12, 2008 9:14 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
hmm. is that live tennis?
That match is scheduled here after cycling, recorded
by Bruce Suomi on
Oct 12, 2008 9:16 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
real life pong
i was hoping KUN would win 3-0 or maybe one of them would concede out of boredom
by Choo Choo on
Oct 12, 2008 9:18 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
a link (bad quality)
http://www.justin.tv/widgets/jtv_live.r9763.swf?channel=azoto
i got it from here,
http://www.myp2p.eu/broadcast.php?matchid=20729&part=sports
by King of Doping on
Oct 12, 2008 9:20 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Cycling audio just started here on eurosport
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on
Oct 12, 2008 9:22 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
and video here
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on
Oct 12, 2008 9:23 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Oscarito!!!!!!!!!!!!
"I won! I won! I don't have to go to school anymore." -- Eddy Merckx, after winning his first bike race
by ELVISGOAT on
Oct 12, 2008 9:27 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Hi, good morning, all. Thanks for the early updates.
Backstedt is commentating on ES and says that Dave Z is racing in his TT skinsuit today, laughing at his quirkiness.
by Ruthann on
Oct 12, 2008 9:29 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Skinsuit worked for Nicole Cooke at the Olympics
by William H on
Oct 12, 2008 9:40 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
in '96
this was first classic i ever saw on the old OLN…remains one of my favs
by Choo Choo on
Oct 12, 2008 9:30 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
ad for vaca in mexico
must be real value for euros
by Choo Choo on
Oct 12, 2008 9:38 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Mornin all!
So, looks like we have a while to go still…
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 9:40 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Anyone else think Dave Z will go for it
when they hit the 50k to go marker?
by Ruthann on
Oct 12, 2008 9:40 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Wow, beautiful scenery, sunshine, road furniture...
I want to enjoy this, as it’s going to be hard going cold turkey next weekend :-) I haven’t seen Ballan yet, was that him near the back? Too much pixellating on my link to see…
by Ruthann on
Oct 12, 2008 9:48 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Hm
looks like the sprint teams aren’t taking too many chances today.
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 10:04 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Also
Justin.tv isn’t the smoothest operation on the planet is it?
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 10:05 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
just - in
i’ve seen better coverage from them, may be their feed
by Choo Choo on
Oct 12, 2008 10:06 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
There is a Paris-Tours Espoirs (179 km)
race that just finished – won by a French guy
by cyclingchallenge on
Oct 12, 2008 10:13 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Ha! We knew he was going to do that :-)
Looks like DZ has started growing his off-season facial hair again.
by Ruthann on
Oct 12, 2008 10:16 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
it looks like he is hoping
that just one or two will join and share
by cyclingchallenge on
Oct 12, 2008 10:15 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
BTW, off-topic, Bruce, but how wonderful to hear of
Martti Ahtisaari’s Nobel Prize! Congrats to him! Big news!
by Ruthann on
Oct 12, 2008 10:22 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Thank you!
That was huge for him (and us)! :)
by Bruce Suomi on
Oct 12, 2008 10:24 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
minor names
Remember Pronk in Paris-Roubaix? Have not noticed him since.
Bert Roesems… finally healed, after endless injuries?
Makes me look forward to the spring.
by JFS_PGH on
Oct 12, 2008 10:27 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Marc Madiot - manager de la Française des Jeux:
“la course n’a pas encore vraiment commencé.tout le monde est encore frais. La course va se débrider dans les kilomètres à venir.”
The race hasn’t tsrated yet. Everyone is still fresh. The race is going to “take-off”(?) in the next few kms
by cyclingchallenge on
Oct 12, 2008 10:31 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
voeckler will work
i expect bunch sprint
by Choo Choo on
Oct 12, 2008 10:32 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
3 hills between 8 and 4 kms to go
could be interesting then
by cyclingchallenge on
Oct 12, 2008 10:33 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Tjallinghi and Tommy V
trying to bridge up to LeMoine.
by Ruthann on
Oct 12, 2008 10:32 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Who is the Columbia rider?
Is that Kolobnev in there?
by Ruthann on
Oct 12, 2008 10:34 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
who's the L&BOUW rider?
if that is L&bouw?
by JFS_PGH on
Oct 12, 2008 10:34 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
yes but may take a little
out of QS at the next hills
by cyclingchallenge on
Oct 12, 2008 10:36 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I guess something important is happening in the tennis match
gone to elongated split screen
by JFS_PGH on
Oct 12, 2008 10:36 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
odd tactic...
with the hilly bits to go.
by JFS_PGH on
Oct 12, 2008 10:39 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
boonen
jumps ahead of peleton?
by cyclingchallenge on
Oct 12, 2008 10:38 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Eurosport commentators
pick Bennati
by cyclingchallenge on
Oct 12, 2008 10:44 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
They must be mistaken
He isn’t among my preferred riders
by OctaBech on
Oct 12, 2008 10:45 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
the crash/corner really cut the peloton half
by Bruce Suomi on
Oct 12, 2008 10:45 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
any sprinters miss?
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 10:46 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
i'd love
to ride this route. Looks positively lovely. I suppose the Loire Valley gets its rep for a reason.
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 10:46 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
My coverage says "proudly a "cricket free" channel" on the
top of the screen. No Paulo allowed here? :-) Or is that some reference to some obscure techie think I don’t understand?
This is getting exciting now: very twisty, turny narrow roads with lots of road furniture.
by Ruthann on
Oct 12, 2008 10:47 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
QSI
they’re planning a full train, aren’t they?
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 10:47 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Down goes Freire???
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 10:48 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
no a name I can't pronounce
by cyclingchallenge on
Oct 12, 2008 10:48 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Could kick the Eurosport commentators
They made my heart jump, yelling Oscar like that
by OctaBech on
Oct 12, 2008 10:49 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
go oscar!!!!
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on
Oct 12, 2008 10:49 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Ballan and gilbert
both patrolling the front. hmmm
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 10:49 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
why for? did you expect michigan to win football games this year?
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on
Oct 12, 2008 10:53 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Gophers bringing home jug this year!
well I’ll still believe it when I see it but hey it looks possible
by plinytheelder on
Oct 12, 2008 7:13 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Pretty well lined out
nuthin doin today
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 10:51 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
kids playing independently
how can I be this lucky?
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 10:52 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Oscar and Boonen both well placed
by cyclingchallenge on
Oct 12, 2008 10:52 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
freire looked good there when
Gilbert tried to attack
by cyclingchallenge on
Oct 12, 2008 10:54 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
oscar a little frisky today
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on
Oct 12, 2008 10:55 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
who was the fourth?
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on
Oct 12, 2008 10:54 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
4km
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on
Oct 12, 2008 10:55 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
gilbert looking good
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on
Oct 12, 2008 10:56 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
suspense!!!
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 10:56 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
freire gone?
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on
Oct 12, 2008 10:56 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Pippo away again???
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 10:56 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
3km
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on
Oct 12, 2008 10:57 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Kuyckx leaking oil
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 10:57 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
dang buffering
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on
Oct 12, 2008 10:57 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Nice tactics fdj
If Gilbert wins, the over/under on major publications calling him French is 4.
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 10:58 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
back
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on
Oct 12, 2008 10:58 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
2km
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on
Oct 12, 2008 10:58 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
my guess
boonen
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 10:58 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
1km
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on
Oct 12, 2008 10:58 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
still a small gap
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on
Oct 12, 2008 10:59 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
wide and straight
hard to hold off the pack
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 10:59 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
500meters
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on
Oct 12, 2008 10:59 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
the catch!!
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 10:59 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
gonna be close
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on
Oct 12, 2008 10:59 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
gilbert !!!
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on
Oct 12, 2008 11:00 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
NOOO
no catch!!!
GILBERT!!!!!!
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 11:00 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
lombardia on ctv on saturday
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on
Oct 12, 2008 11:00 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
RAI
not to be missed, if that’s possible.
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 11:05 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
oh, thanks for that!
ES shows it too, at least I hope so..
by Bruce Suomi on
Oct 12, 2008 11:06 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Kuyckx 2nd
Bweeg 3rd
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 11:01 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
lovely, lovely, lovely!
And kuyckx must have been shamming the oil leak.
by JFS_PGH on
Oct 12, 2008 11:01 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
check versus paris-tours coverage later today
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on
Oct 12, 2008 11:01 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
zabel 7th on his final paris-tours
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on
Oct 12, 2008 11:02 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Farrar 5th
wins the sprint of the sprints
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 11:02 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
And the Frenchman
wins at home.
d’oh!
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 11:03 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
He is Belgian :D
The discount version of French
by OctaBech on
Oct 12, 2008 11:28 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Oh!
and onto table tennis now. Man, I could spend the whole day here. Shall we switch to the live ping pong open thread?
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 12, 2008 11:06 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
yes both are on my
Virtual Pong team
by cyclingchallenge on
Oct 12, 2008 11:07 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
the cycling was cutting onto the Ping Pong
no podium photos
by cyclingchallenge on
Oct 12, 2008 11:06 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
What an exciting finish!
What a great win for Gilbert! He’s going to *Lotto next year, isn’t he?
by Ruthann on
Oct 12, 2008 11:08 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Thanks for the updates
Farrar 5:th!? How awesome is that! Big things next year……….
Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets
by Jens on
Oct 12, 2008 11:15 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Worth noting how Delage buried himself on the last 2 kms
to help his teammate win
by cyclingchallenge on
Oct 12, 2008 11:32 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Not much of sprinters' classic recently. Humph.
Arrived home hoping for a Benna win, but hey, I like Gilbert too so congrats to him! Are you happy CycleGirl?! (stupid question!)
by Albertina on
Oct 12, 2008 1:12 PM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
A very good prediction indeed
Was it a lucky shot or should one consider to bet money on her predictions?
by OctaBech on
Oct 12, 2008 1:19 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Loved seeing Philippe win, and yes i'm so happy!! Doing the victory dance LOL
I just say bring on the Podium Photo’s, ohh we will get to see that smile…I’m excited,
by CycleGirl on
Oct 12, 2008 1:40 PM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Just watched today's Versus coverage of Paris-Tours via TiVo
I was pleasantly suprised that they did a 2 hour “as live” show considering Saturday they did a one hour Vuelta recap show. 3 weeks of racing in one hour! Eh? It was awful. Today’s P-T was quite enjoyable. Been awhile since I’ve seen same day as live cycling on my TV.
Good for Gilbert. He’s French right?
(just kidding. Belgian, I know.)
by ZoeRochelle on
Oct 12, 2008 11:12 PM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
It was a nice show; I taped it and watched it last night.
The scenery was amazingly beautiful. I noticed that Ballan is quite recognizable in the overhead helicopter shots of the peloton – a much bigger target to spot than Bettini, that’s for sure :-)
by Ruthann on
Oct 13, 2008 12:20 PM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Philippe is from Belgium, but he is a Wallonian.
Walloons (wŏlnz`), group of people living in S Belgium who traditionally spoke a dialect of French called Walloon, but who today for the most part speak standard French. The Walloons, numbering some 3.5 million, reside mostly in the provinces of Hainaut, Liège, Namur, Luxembourg, and Walloon Brabant, in contrast to the Dutch-speaking Flemings of the northern provinces
Just an interesting Philippe fact..
by CycleGirl on
Oct 14, 2008 6:54 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Which province
is PG from?
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on
Oct 14, 2008 5:19 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
yeah I know it,
my grandma was a Walloon, so I have a special place in my heart for Ph.G. But hey, the Belgians are the Canadians of Europe, so I made him an honourary Canadian! ;)
by plinytheelder on
Oct 15, 2008 5:02 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs











