"No more positives from Tour de France"
by majope on Oct 14, 2008 7:34 AM EDT
124 comments
I posted this in the Kohl Positive thread, but it probably deserves its own post. According to AFP:
Austria's Bernhard Kohl will be the "seventh and last" positive doping case from this year's Tour de France, according to sports daily L'Equipe on Tuesday.
Although it had been reported recently that France's national anti-doping agency was set to reveal a deluge of positive tests, L'Equipe said Tuesday the Kohl positive case "is the seventh and last positive, according to our information".
Haven't found the story online at L'Equipe yet, but will add the link when it comes up.
Now the post-mortem begins: how would the Tour have been different without the presence of these cheaters?
Update from Gav. Here is the linky to l'equipe.fr. The story originally appeared in today's print edition.
1 recs |
124 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
Well, at least now we can refrain from clicking refresh all day!
Until the next round starts of course…..
by Albertina on Oct 14, 2008 7:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
hey!
Official Podium Cafe policy: people should be here clicking refresh all day.
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on Oct 14, 2008 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well yes, I click refresh here a great deal!
by Albertina on Oct 14, 2008 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
excellent!
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on Oct 14, 2008 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But naturally!
It is of course the best website on the entire interweb. EVEN BETTER than Facebook! lol
by Albertina on Oct 14, 2008 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good news
So, should the official Tour de France site change the results on their web site?
by cyclingchallenge on Oct 14, 2008 8:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How the podiums (podia?) would have changed, part I
Just looking at results, not considering how the dynamics of the race itself would have changed:
Stage 1: Andy Schleck in white instead of Ricco
Stage 2: Andy Schleck in white instead of Ricco.
Stage 4: Revised podium without Schumacher’s “win” would be Kirchen, Millar, Evans, with Kirchen taking yellow.
Stage 5: Kirchen in yellow instead of Schumacher.
Stage 6: Without Ricco’s “win” podium would be Valverde, Evans, F. Schleck.
Stage 7: Without Schumi’s 2nd place podium would be LL Sanchez, Pozzato, Kirchen.
Stage 9: Podium without Ricco would be Efimkin, Dessel, Fofonov, Knees
Stage 10: Hautacam wins for dirtiest stage—check out the revised top ten:
1. Leonardo Piepoli (ITA), Saunier Duval 4:19:27 (36.076kph)
1. Juan Jose Cobo Acebo (ESP), Saunier Duval at at0:00
2. Frank Schleck (LUX), CSC at 0:28
4. Bernhard Kohl (AUT), Gerolsteiner at 1:06
3. Vladimir Efimkin (RUS), Ag2r at 2:05
6. Riccardo Ricco (ITA), Saunier Duval at 2:17
4. Carlos Sastre (ESP), CSC 2:17
5. Cadel Evans (AUS), Silence-Lotto 2:17
6. Denis Menchov (RUS), Rabobank 2:17
7. Christian Vande Velde (USA), Garmin-Chipotle 2:17
11. Moises Duenas (ESP), Barloworld at 2:27
8. Stephane Goubert (FRA), Ag2r at 2:49
9. Vincenzo Nibali (ITA), Liquigas at 3:40
10. Mikel Astarloza (ESP), Euskaltel-Euskadi at 3:58
After Stage 10, De la Fuente should have been wearing polka dots, and Nibali in white.
by majope on Oct 14, 2008 8:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Shouldn't Cobo
DQ on Stage 10 as well, or was he a later suspect..? I’m fuzzy on things that happened in July already.
by Fred Marx on Oct 14, 2008 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never tested positive
though, to me, that’s the most shocking news of the year so far. I’d be less surprised if the sun rose in the west tomorrow…
by Le Comte on Oct 14, 2008 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
clean-up in aisle 10!
no doubt the anti-speculation police will be after me for this, but 1 and 2…
by nicknorco on Oct 14, 2008 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How the podiums (podia?) would have changed, part II
Stage 11: De la Fuente KOM, Nibali best young rider.
Stage 15: Lang KOM instead of Kohl.
Stage 16: Lang KOM instead of Kohl.
Stage 17: Sastre KOM instead of Kohl.
Stage 18: Sastre KOM instead of Kohl.
Stage 19: Sastre KOM instead of Kohl.
Stage 20: Podium without Schumacher’s “win” should have been Cancellara, Kirchen, Vande Velde, with Sastre still in dots instead of Kohl.
Stage 21/Final: Sastre won KOM, Menchov should have been on podium for overall 3rd place instead of Kohl.
by majope on Oct 14, 2008 8:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm pissed about Stage 20, I was there wanting to see fabian No#1 on the podium.
I was ripped off…… and interesting fact, Fabian was tested on this day, when i was there after his race, he was taken to the drug tent… and with all the reports… My Boys are safe…. Yeah!!!!!
by CycleGirl on Oct 14, 2008 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
safe for now … once the afld magic up the transfusion test, it all starts again. and there’s also the ioc retesting to fret about.
:)
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Oct 14, 2008 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope not worried about the Boys anymore...
BTW they were having too much fun partying at Alpe d’Huez then to worry about that sh&t…
by CycleGirl on Oct 14, 2008 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps next year they’ll just get some good digital images of the riders ahead of time and all podium shots can be digitally produced and updated as future events unfold.
by jae on Oct 14, 2008 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
EPO?!? Beta-blockers I can understand, but EPO?
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Oct 14, 2008 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's for a masking agent, not for EPO
And unless they state the masking agent, we don’t know what else it can mask, nor if it has any other reasonable uses.
by JFS_PGH on Oct 14, 2008 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do beta-blockers...
slow their hearts….as in shooters take the shot between heart beats?
by Naffster on Oct 14, 2008 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
and yes. And this guy is not on EPO. That is just nonsense. My money is on this being a bad test. Now if the guy tested positive for an ESB blocking agent, as in Extra Special Bitter, now that would be more believable…
by Jimbo... on Oct 14, 2008 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bitter's as in for drinks?
"The most wasted day is that in which we have not laughed."
by nikki on Oct 18, 2008 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just bizarre.
It’s hardly an endurance sport is it?!
by Albertina on Oct 14, 2008 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on one's size
To some of us getting up from the couch can be an endurance sport in itself. (:
by OctaBech on Oct 14, 2008 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm. Getting up the stairs at work at the crack of dawn this morning was certainly an endurance sport for me...
by Albertina on Oct 14, 2008 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
:D Reminds me of something an old Danish TdF commentator once said
It’s hardly a surprised that professional riders get caught for doping considering so many ordinary people it necessary to dope to party.
by OctaBech on Oct 15, 2008 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've already subjected the people here to the
doping-liberal views of Mr Leth and they weren’t too impressed that time (or is this a Jörn Mader quote?).
I loveJörgen Leth, he is magical when it comes to portraying the emotional side of cycling but when it comes to doping his views are beyond moronic.
Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets
by Jens on Oct 15, 2008 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's a legitimate point that most of us go for "better living through chemistry"
Physically / pharmacologically, it’s a continuum. Heck, diet vs. vitamin vs. supplement vs. hormone is a continuum. Ask any woman who’s gone for more tofu products in the hope of bouncing up her phytoestrogens.
Now, I personally can’t figure the mindset that says “inject this and then use someone else’s pee to pass the test.” But if you already are on saline drips to rehydrate after killer stages, that’s got to put you in a very different frame of mind RE the sanctity of your skin barrier. Not to mention eating jars of nutella and losing weight [grin]. A lot of impossible things probably start to seem normal.
I’m not disputing that we nice clean lines drawn by the sports authorities (and some special dispensations for demonstrated medical need). And that those lines are to be respected not because they are obvious, but because that’s part of the contract.
(If the athletes don’t like where the lines are drawn, let the riders union take up specific items. And if we don’t like where “general public” lines are drawn because it interferes with their partying, or their rationally-considered self-medication…same deal.
by JFS_PGH on Oct 15, 2008 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, the line between taking pills against depression and direct doping can easily vanish
This makes me think of authors who smoking things to get inspired, perhaps AFLD should test J.K. Rowling too! :D
by OctaBech on Oct 15, 2008 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it was Leth and agreed, I too find many of his views/ideas.. quite provocative and out of touch with basic morals.
by OctaBech on Oct 15, 2008 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They were fun though
“planted, som et träd i Harzen” was always my favourite. :-)
(A quote from danish TdF commentator on Rolf Aldag being dropped by Virenque in a breakaway: “planted , like a tree in the Harz” , which is about how he looked by the way)
Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets
by Jens on Oct 16, 2008 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jörgen Leth
"Cycling is not a clean sport. It is an unhealthy sport, an extreme sport. And that’s how it is supposed to be. It is what I have always cherished about cycling. It is filled with amazing, oversize personalities, eccentrics and people jeopardizing their life. Anything else is based on a stupid illusion that the sport is clean and riders should be role-models for young people. It’s a crock of shit in my opinion."
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Oct 16, 2008 6:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the quote I posted
Charming isn’t it. He is an artist and prone to over-romantizising though. As I said, the man has many other admirable qualities, one being the ability to turn a three week race into a larger than life drama that captivates viewers. I doubt I would be a fan today if it wasn’t for his commentary.
Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets
by Jens on Oct 16, 2008 8:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we need people like him willing to actually say things like this. After all, it is what an awful lot of cycling fans believe. And he’s not too far from a few others. Hippocrates himself is supposed to have said that "the athletic development is not natural; much better the ordinary healthy condition of the body." And while I admire Blondin’s writing, I think I prefer the brutal honesty of Leth’s comment to the sweet romanticism of Blondin’s most famous passage:
“In a rider’s life, there are moments and places where circumstances require that he transcend himself. Each struggles to face up to that obligation […] As sports fans, we prefer to dream about angels on wheels, Simon Pures somehow immune to the uppers and downers of our own pill-popping society. There is, all the same, a certain nobility in those who have gone down into God knows what hell in search of the best of themselves. We might feel tempted to tell them they should not have done it, but we can remain secretly proud of what they have done. Their wan, haggard looks are for us an offering.”
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Oct 16, 2008 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
right--extreme exertion is effectively putting tiny holes in your heart muscles
Not to mention the doodsmakings, some of which have left people, well, “dood.” But I guess we can still divide it into “intrinsic” unhealthiness—same as it’s been since time began—and “unnecessary” unhealthiness—new ways to die in your sleep or on the operating table after doing unspeakable, novel things to your circulatory system. For starters, the human body has evolved some capacity to repair basic overexertion damage, as well as natural limits (passing out, cramping up) to prevent damage over the fixable limit. Jerk your body around to get past those barriers, and you set yourself up for real damage.
by JFS_PGH on Oct 16, 2008 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not gonna argue with you on that. I mean, I do actually fundamentally disagree with Leth. But he says what he says an awful lot better than a lot of other doping apologists.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Oct 16, 2008 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That I agree with
and I think it is a good thing to have balance against the “goody two-shoes”-opinion(which I’m sometimeson the side of) which tends to over-simplify complex issues.
Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets
by Jens on Oct 16, 2008 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hang on a minute....
it’s a misnomer to generalise that western society goes out and gets shitface to have a good time…..and that therefore we shouldn’t be surprised when athletes we admire turn to drugs to fuel their performance. A morning coffee and a bex for the odd headache is a world away from shortening your life by manipulating your blood values with inadequately researched pharmaceuticals that amount to little more than rat poison.
Maybe it is the gen Y’s doing that – routinely getting shitface, or maybe at 37 I’m just really old, boring and healthy! Even if that were the case, gen Y would have no trouble proudly telling you just exactly how they got shitface, so I don’t think that explains or justifies reliance on prohibited substances in sport. Doing to have a good time is slightly more innocent that doing it to maximise your market $ value.
I do agree though that there is something refreshing about Leth’s honesty. But the point is that the sport is not honest. If procycling is doped to the eyeballs then it’s keeping mum about it because to be honest about it means no cash. Take the cash out of the sport, not just for the riders, but for those that really reap the financial benefits, and that’d fix the problem.
At the end of the day I struggle with Leth’s view of the world, and Fanini’s allegations…because I still want to believe that there are some athletes that do it clean, to believe that occasionally there is the odd freak of nature who for whatever reason just happens to have a innate, natural skill or talent that has been honed through hard work and perseverance. I apologise to those outside of the cricketing universe but in Aus in the 1930s and 1940s there was a cricketer called Don Bradman and he was a batsman. His career average was 99.9 (that is average number of runs scored per match). No other cricketer in the world (albeit the bits of the world that are the former British Empire) has ever achieved an average anything like it. Now the naysayers will refer to the shear number of matches played in modern cricket and come up with a host of attempts at explaining why modern cricketers can’t match Bradman’s average. But at the end of the day, they can’t explain it away because the guy was just a rarity. A freak of nature.
And I guess that’s how I feel about pro-cycling and a couple of other sports that I love following.
I desperately want to believe that it is still possible on occasions for athletes to come along who push the boundaries of human achievement through nothing more than natural freakish ability, (legitimate) sports science, nutritional and training.
Go ahead….chuck stuff at me for my utopian naivety:)
by Naffster on Oct 16, 2008 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gen Y's and others are also taking (so-called) smart drugs
There seem to be a lot of young and not-so-young people using new(ish) drugs to stay awake ungodly hours, boost recall, deaden (legitimate) emotional response to stress. And there’s always the same old rat poison [wink] to thin their thick parts, thicken their thin parts, and otherwise boost their value on the job market and “mate market” (if I may call it that).
I’m not saying Leth makes that argument, but it is a natural extension of his argument. And unlike the “whooooo hooooo I’m shit-faced” crowd, most of this “grace of chemistry” living is pretty quiet, because it’s in the realm of supplements or off-label use.
P.S. Before I offend anyone, I want to point out that I’m not questioning legitimate use of antidepressants (for example). I’m questioning fine-tuning one’s chemistry instead of one’s life choices and habits.
by JFS_PGH on Oct 17, 2008 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It must suck to be Denis Menchov
He is the Rodney Dangerfield of the peloton. Vuelta by default when Heras is busted. Riding for the Chicken. Outdone for third by doper Kohl. Man, he gets no respect!
"The world is a mess and I just need to rule it." Dr. Horrible
by bethie on Oct 14, 2008 10:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is actually why I have a problem with Menchov
I’m sorry but if you train practically every day of your life, sacrifice and live like a monk, is this how you respond to the news that someone has cheated you out of your ultimate goal?
Menchov said he “did not know how to react” when he heard the news of Heras’s positive test
“I don’t know what happened and I don’t think anyone really knows. Well, obviously someone must know, but I don’t think we will ever find out what the truth is, nor who the guilty parties are or if it is simply an error. It’s all very strange,” said the Russian.
“There is a lot of difference between winning a race this way and winning it on the road. You can’t compare the two. I still don’t know what is eventually going to happen, but I believe it will be some time before the definitive conclusion to all this is reached,”
I know not everyone agrees with me on this but that answer is barely human.OK he’s not an emotional person but if he can truly be so cool about it he ranks right up there with Gandhi and Mandela.
Quotes from Bikeradar
Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets
by Jens on Oct 14, 2008 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
mmm....
the cycnic in me wonders whether neutral blah responses like that come more from the “better whatch what I say in case I’m next” camp than out of a lack of care factor…
by Naffster on Oct 14, 2008 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or maybe he just figures it’s not worth any emotional output on his part b/c he can’t change what has been done & the only person he has control over is himself & all that other similar 12-step-esque blahblahblah.
by marian on Oct 15, 2008 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never understood that
Does he mope around the peloton? Is he always being overly polite? What exactly is the problem?
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on Oct 14, 2008 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
cyclingnews: "Denis Menchov is certainly no quote-machine"
Thankfully for some, yellow jerseys aren’t awarded for charisma. If they were, it’s safe to say the only way five-time Tour winner Miguel Induráin could have got his hands one was by scouring eBay or mail order catalogues. The same, we’re afraid to say, now applies to Russia’s Denis Menchov…
cyclingnews, from last June—and rather entertaining it is, too.
by majope on Oct 14, 2008 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is the quiet man
Guy barely speaks, or so I’ve read.
by Jimbo... on Oct 14, 2008 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has to speak some
His spanish is awesome. Granted I’m not spanish but I can hardly detect a russian accent. And most russian immigrants have accents no matter how long they’ve lived in Sweden, USA or whatever.
Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets
by Jens on Oct 15, 2008 2:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And there was much rejoicing!
At least this isn’t dragging on anymore. Or touching the maillot jaune.
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on Oct 14, 2008 10:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Their are a few thing which worries me!
I know I told I never believe a word from the Dutch media but i don’t think they made this up.
A Belgian Professor quoted: After Epo, Nesp en Cera their is a fourth generation dope on the market, The black market(?). It’s called Hematide.
First thing what worries me.
Second he quoted: Cera was only in 2003 officially on the market under the brand name Mircera, but I think that since the early 2000 in the cycling peloton was used. Some riders performed above their average level and also showed strange blood records and yet signed negative for EPO. For insiders, there was only one explanation: "Cera
Google+little Frinking translation.
WTF. Since 2000 in cycling?!?! That’s 8 years ago… If that’s true it’s very sad. It means that the fourth generation, which is probably better, is detectable in about 12 years?!?!
Some say the best things in life, are one the inside.
by Frinking on Oct 14, 2008 11:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
sigh...
you had to go and spoil the party, didn’t ya ;-)
Yes, it’s been clear for a while that drugs are making it into cycling before they’re officially on the market. Creepy. The authorities seem to have a hard time cracking down on the trafficking side of this equation – though, no doubt the criminal authorities do have other things on their minds than preventing a few pro cyclists from buying doping products.
No doubt there’s a fourth generation and multiple versions of a second and third generation. I’m glad they caught the CERA kids. But certainly, they weren’t the only suspicious rides I’ve seen this year.
by gavia on Oct 14, 2008 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha yeah. Maybe I have to let it go
And only support my 100% dope free favorites :)
Some say the best things in life, are one the inside.
by Frinking on Oct 14, 2008 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
of course. all my faves are doping free, aren’t yours? ;-)
by gavia on Oct 14, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mine too.
Pineau, Voeckleur, Franzoi, Amorison, Uran, Martens, P. Velits, Cobo, Samsan, Breschel, Sivtsov and Nieve. How could possibly be on dope? (Ok Cobo but isn’t caught with all the retesting…. yet)
Some say the best things in life, are one the inside.
by Frinking on Oct 14, 2008 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's one of mine I really can't be sure about....you can probably guess who!
But…la la la la laaaa, I’m not listening!! Clearly though, nothing wrong with Benna, or Pippo, or Tommeke, or Igor, or Sammy ;-)
by Albertina on Oct 14, 2008 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aah Tommeke... Hasn't he seen to much white stuff?
Some say the best things in life, are one the inside.
by Frinking on Oct 15, 2008 6:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the other would be Franke.. Or..
Nah I wouldn’t drop names again
Some say the best things in life, are one the inside.
by Frinking on Oct 15, 2008 6:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's fine... don't worry, safe like my Boys...
Oh yes Benna, Pippo, Philippe and Tommeke are good.. Tommeke was just trying to fit into the dance crowd, and i’m sure he won’t do that again… Boys will be Boys..
by CycleGirl on Oct 15, 2008 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Embase, the best database for drug info, has just 37 mentions of this hematide and from the looks of the it's very much in the testing stage.
It must be very black market if it’s out there in the peleton (let’s pray it’s not obviously)
by Albertina on Oct 14, 2008 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hoo boy
I was poking around, looking at articles on hematide, and came across this:
Other substances not yet on the banned list but popular among athletes are breast milk and cobalt.
I will not have another child and move to Europe. I will not have another child and move to Europe. I will not have another child and move to Europe. I will not even imagine having another child and moving to Europe. Nope, not me.
by majope on Oct 14, 2008 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But (and I don't remember the details exactly)
when Rasmussen supposedly tried to smuggle some dodgy substance into Italy, he got it in the US. And wasn’t that the stuff that was only licensed for veterinary use, and then only in one country in the world, South Africa.
The hard-core cheats will always be miles ahead, but at the very least the bio passport seems to be persuading riders that they don’t need to dope because everyone else is.
by Monty. on Oct 14, 2008 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was a "next big thing" artificial blood that turned out to be risky.
It was being studied all over, maybe even pre-release, if you want to call it that, but as the side effects data started to come in, the risks only balanced out for human use in South Africa due to the very high HIV prevalence.
by JFS_PGH on Oct 15, 2008 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
CERA was thought to be in use at least three to four years ago. Look at the length of time that elapses between a drug going into testing and actually being made available on the market. We know that some athletes are only too willing to act as guinea pigs, if they think it gives them an advantage.
That some riders might already have access to hematide … not a surprise.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Oct 14, 2008 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there were other modified EPO's out there, but some could trigger nasty autoimmune stuff
esp. if used subcutaneously (see here / read down for eprex.) Nothing like having your body hunt down your own endogenous EPO, you know? “whoops, I guess I won’t be making any more RBC’s.” You get your stuff while it is not yet approved, you run some serious risks.
by JFS_PGH on Oct 14, 2008 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
way too cycnical...
but reading that brought to mind an Aust pro-cyclist who missed the TDF this year because he was recovering from glandual fever….
ok, smack my wrist…lots of people get autoimmune diseases….particularly those who regularly flog their bodies to the limit.
by Naffster on Oct 14, 2008 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, they yanked that stuff, I'm pretty sure.
It didn’t cause general autoimmune symptoms, as far as I can tell. If your immune system notices that particular modified EPO, your body would then make antibodies against your own EPO, and destroy your own EPO, so your RBC production would then plummet. Result? Anemia. If there are cyclists who retired 4 (or so) years ago (not really clear on the exact time frame) with pernicious chronic anemia, that might be fallout from the 2nd gen EPO.
by JFS_PGH on Oct 15, 2008 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since 2000
This is a recurring theme comment: cops need to stay ahead of the robbers. If you are naming hematide, presumably Anne Gripper knows about it too. Hopefully the tests are in development, as we speak. Whether the good guys can stay on top remains an open question, but at least I like to think they won’t be completely lazy about it. When there’s a known drug, there should be a response immediately.
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on Oct 14, 2008 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
cobalt is a mildly toxic heavy metal
biological activity and toxicity report here
by JFS_PGH on Oct 14, 2008 12:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Heavy metal is inspiring, dude
And inspiration makes you ride harder. Duh.
by Jimbo... on Oct 15, 2008 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Totes.
Nothing like a little Motörhead to get me juiced to ride.
by marian on Oct 15, 2008 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
a guilty pleasure at my old, loud gym
But no swimming pool. So now I listen to crap, or don’t go. And don’t tell me to put on headphones. If the music’s really working, you’re banging away way too hard for headphones.
by JFS_PGH on Oct 15, 2008 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've gone through nearly 25 pairs of headphones in 2 years now...
testing and rejecting and have finally found a pair that do NOT dislodge from my melon during heavy exertion… the Sony MDR-AS20J.
Current Cardio Mix:
Primus: Spegetti Western
NIN: Pretty Hate Machine
Metallica: The Small Hours
Cubanismo: Pa’Que Gozen
Black Sabbath: Tomorrow’s Dreams
Black Sabbath: Disturbing the Priest (really, is there a better name for a song?)
Megadeth: The Conjuring
Offspring: Gone Away
Motörhead: The Ace of Spades
White Stripes: I’m Finding it Harder to be a Gentleman Everyday
Metallica: The Wait
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.
by crashdan on Oct 15, 2008 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
White Stripes?
One of these things is not like the others, one of these things, does not belong . . . .
~
Lazywebs, I ask you to produce an iTunes/universal playlist exporting-importing function, and make a thread out of it on PodiumCafe.
Thankyou.
by Sui Juris on Oct 15, 2008 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know... it's strange...
The Small Hours is a really driving heavy metal beat (and it’s not lost on me that the two best songs by Metallica, The Small Hours and The Wait are both covers) and to go straight from that into the happy go lucky Cuban beat invariably makes me chuckle and I smile through the whole song… which distracts me from the 165+bpm I’m usually pushing at that point.
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.
by crashdan on Oct 15, 2008 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, see, I don't want to pay for this stuff, or even know about it.
(Except the white stripes.)
I want it to be there when I get there, make noise that infiltrates my muscles and makes my chest cavity vibrate as a counter-irritant to the muscle exhaustion of those last few reps, and never actually register on my brain as “music.” It’s a fantastically effective subliminal tool, not part of my listening pleasure.
Which is good, because my brain has decided to wake me up every 4 hours as a hot-flash sort of thing. Bad 70s pop, mostly. But I don’t think metal would make sleeping any easier.
by JFS_PGH on Oct 16, 2008 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about HGH?
Is there a test for human growth hormone yet? As I understand it, it doesn’t enhance performance directly, but does promote healing … (and that smooth, “baby” facial skin some cyclists seem to have?)
by GreylockGrinder on Oct 14, 2008 1:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They used a new HGH test in Beijing
A new test kit that can better track the trace of human growth hormone (HGH) was introduced into the Games, which experts expected to finally discover HGH users.
by majope on Oct 14, 2008 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nah. They won't. Will they?
Bordry also said samples from the 2007 edition — won by Alberto Contador of Spain — could also be re-examined, but that would be up to cycling’s governing body as it was responsible for testing on that Tour. “(The 2007 Tour samples) belong to the UCI,” Bordry said. “It depends what condition they are in, if they have been stored properly. If they have been, it’s possible (to retest them).”
by majope on Oct 14, 2008 2:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It could be never ending, this business!
Where does one stop?!
by Albertina on Oct 14, 2008 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
when
they run out of urine.
"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."
by Chris... on Oct 14, 2008 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And this is why god invented beer
so we would never have that problem.
Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets
by Jens on Oct 15, 2008 2:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or in the case of coors...
nah, I won’t say it.
by JFS_PGH on Oct 15, 2008 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know it struck me the other day that since Budweiser is the largest consumer of rice in the US...
That their beer… isn’t actually beer. It’s carbonated Sake. Which makes the taste of it make far more sense. (Not nearly enough sense to consume it… but it does explain it).
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.
by crashdan on Oct 15, 2008 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so it would taste better if I drank it hot?
by lyne on Oct 15, 2008 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a good question...
… you let us know how that works out for you…
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.
by crashdan on Oct 15, 2008 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
okay I'll put the can in the microwave and heat it up for a few minutes
by lyne on Oct 15, 2008 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You let us know how THAT works out for you...
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.
by crashdan on Oct 15, 2008 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
She enjoyed the fireworks and then had some smores.... or so I heard.
"The most wasted day is that in which we have not laughed."
by nikki on Oct 18, 2008 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WTF? Someone should read them the Reinheitsgebot.
Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets
by Jens on Oct 15, 2008 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now you guys are just baiting me...
freakin’ mid-week beer commentary… frickin’ personal trainer and his “you get one day a week when you can drink” methodology…
I’m gonna go drink some water… grumble grumble grumble…
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.
by crashdan on Oct 15, 2008 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And just think...
You’re paying someone to tell you not to drink. And if you do drink, then you are wasting your money. That’s a lovely catch that catch 22…
by Jimbo... on Oct 15, 2008 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes... paying money...
… so that JD can say inspiring things like “If you don’t finish this set I’m going to punch you in the kidney”, “this is going to be so tough it’ll hurt when you shit” and my personal favorite: “I’m going to pull your hamstrings out your asshole”.
I tell you, JD is a poet of the trainer vernacular.
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.
by crashdan on Oct 15, 2008 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jeesus
I hope you and JD have established a “safe word”. If not, you might want to consider it…
by Jimbo... on Oct 15, 2008 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL!!!
Well… yes… sort of a safe word… in involves whatever major muscle group I’m working on failing in pathetic fashion and me saying something like “Blurgghrrahbbbbmmmffffffrnff”.
There’s no way this entire topic doesn’t have a sordid overtone is there…
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.
by crashdan on Oct 16, 2008 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is NOT beer. And it should NOT make you want to drink.
Brush your teeth, maybe.
by JFS_PGH on Oct 16, 2008 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look Belgium, if you bought it
you fix it.
That’s the rule here in Pottery Barn land.
by Sui Juris on Oct 15, 2008 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The end? Or the end for now?
I’m a bit confused as to the current state of play. I thought Bordry had said they’d decided to stop CERA testing, implying the autologous testing was still going to happen, hsould a test become availble. But now it looks like he’s actually saying that the Tour de France is over and the 2008 samples are going into storage.
So – is it the end or just the end for now?
And if it’s the end, what encouraged the AFLD to drop its investigations so quickly?
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Oct 15, 2008 6:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re doping stored blood....
my thoracic surgeon, a very keen cyclist, reckons that the benefit you get is really minimal because of the body’s delay ability to uptake the transfued blood….
anyone done any reading on this?
by Naffster on Oct 15, 2008 7:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Here are some benefits:
It is highly effective and is estimated to improve endurance exercise performance at the elite level by about 4%
It boosts VO2 max (maximal oxygen uptake) and reduces lactate buildup
The ergogenic (exercise performance boosting) effect with blood doping is immediate, making it ideal for a pre-main event performance – making pre-event detection more difficult
It may be easier to regulate hematocrit (percent composition RBCs [red blood cells] of total blood volume) a tightly regulated ceiling is placed on this value and is used for detection of both blood doping (and EPO use)
It probably decreases the perception of effort during exercise allowing for improved performance
article here: “Blood Doping for Boosting Exercise Performance” by David Petersen
by majope on Oct 15, 2008 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hunh? Once the blood is put back in, it's there. No "uptake" needed.
I don’t get what “uptake” he is talking about. Lung capillary surface area for loading ("uptaking") the oxygen, maybe? As in, too many red cells is like too many trucks at the loading dock? (Not that it really works that way.) Can you ask for clarification?
by JFS_PGH on Oct 16, 2008 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"uptake" is probably just my vague paraphrasing of what he said since it's few weeks since I had my last consultation with him....
but the import of what he was saying was that it takes a fair bit of time for the body to access or use the reintroduced red blood cells…..does that make sense?
by Naffster on Oct 16, 2008 7:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nah, not really, so far as I know.
I mean, they’ll pick up O2 and release it right in the test tube, if you change the oxygen level around them. In fact, so will “naked” hemoglobin. So I’m not sure how you could stop them from doing the same thing in your bloodstream.
It does, however, take time for EPO to tell the body to make red cells, and for those cells to mature to the point where they carry oxygen. So maybe he was thinking about it being not much use to pump up on EPO shortly before a race. That would be absolutely true.
by JFS_PGH on Oct 17, 2008 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Podium Cafe
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recent FanShots
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
