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Puerto Revived: Schleck Suspended from Racing

D_medium Added by Gavia: Team CSC-Saxo Bank has provisionally suspended Fränk Schleck from racing (technically, on "inactive status"), pending further developments in the investigation of his dealings with Dr. Fuentes. According to available evidence, Schleck paid Fuentes 7000€ in March 2006. No evidence of further payments has yet surfaced. Schleck denies having ever used doping products, and claims he did not know Fuentes's true calling as Doping Provider to the Stars. On the advice of friends, he said, he ended the contact with Fuentes. Schleck has offered to provide a DNA sample, in the effort to prove that none of the blood still in Spanish custody belong to him. Exactly how such a matching would take place has never been tested.

Over the last two days, Schleck has met with the Luxembourg Anti-doping authorities and the UCI. It remains to be seen what decisions the authorities may make in his case. For now, Schleck remains suspended from racing with CSC-Saxo Bank.

Read the CSC-Saxo Bank press release, below the fold.

Star-divide

CSC issued a press release earlier today.

Team CSC Saxo Bank has received a thorough briefing from Fränk Schleck and awaits the Luxembourg Anti-doping committee's ruling and further information from the UCI.

The Luxembourg Anti-doping committee has had a preliminary meeting with Fränk Schleck on the basis of which it will be decided whether or not to open disciplinary proceedings concerning his proclaimed involvement in the Operacion Puerto. Fränk Schleck has also had a meeting with the UCI in order to explain himself.

Fränk Schleck has supplied the team as well the Luxembourg Anti-doping committee with the following information and evidence.

* He never used or attempted use of a prohibited substance or a prohibited method.

* He has confirmed that he has made the bank transaction to the Swiss account in march 2006, in order to receive training advice by experts who presumably worked with some of the biggest names in the sport. At the time, Fränk Schleck had no reason to believe that this was not the case. There was no suspicion on his behalf of any unlawful action. He interrupted the contact after taking advice from his father and his near friends.

“For the moment, Fränk has to concentrate fully on this case and we will await further information from both the Luxembourg Anti-doping committee and the UCI in order to make an assessment of our further actions in relation to this. Together with Fränk, we have made the decision that he doesn't enter our race programme until we have had the chance to evaluate the outcome of this. We have given our main sponsors a full briefing of this matter and they fully support our actions in relation to this. We would like to express our sincere hope that Fränk comes out of this case in a way that is acceptable to him and to the team and we will do our utmost to make the most reasonable and sound decisions for him and for the team”, Riis continues.

 

There's much more, so read the whole thing.

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Together with Fränk, we have made the decision that he doesn’t enter our race programme until we have had the chance to evaluate the outcome of this.

Nice, PR-friendly hardline approach. Though pretty meaningless with just a couple of races left to run.

He is fully prepared to give a sample of his DNA to relevant authorities to prove that he has not stored blood in Madrid or elsewhere in order to make use of illegal performance enhancing methods.

A wise move. If he’s innocent, it shows how much faith he has in his innocence. If he’s guilty, he’s betting the blood bags will be destroyed sooner than handed over the the UCI.

His full bank statements show no further transactions to the Swiss bank account.

All the better. €7k really isn’t going to buy you a doping programme. And a money trail seems the more likely route to catching cheats than waiting for DNA samples and blood bags.

His blood values from then and now show no indication of any tampering, manipulation or anything that could suggest the use of illegal substances or methods. This has been confirmed by Dr Rasmus Damsgaard, Bispebjerg University Hospital who has analyzed the values.

Damsgaard bigs up his abilities to spot oxygen vector doping, so this reads like a clean bill of health.

"We were very disappointed to hear that Fränk has been in contact with people who have done great harm to the sport and ruthlessly tarnished the most important principles that we all should adhere to in the fight against doping. His behaviour has been irresponsible towards himself and his team."

Does Riis now denounce Cecchini?

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 3, 2008 6:44 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was writing my comment before I saw yours

Do you interpret the “experts who presumably worked with some of the biggest names in the sport” to mean Cecchini?

Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets

by Jens on Oct 3, 2008 6:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cecchini

Depends on which version you want to believe. If Schleck acted on his own, then no, not Cecchini, as he’s too closely linked with Ris and CSC. Fuentes was connected to quite a few dodgy doctors and trainers. It’s as likely Schleck, if acting on his own initiative, would get the tip from a current / former rider.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 3, 2008 7:02 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"Irresponsible behavior, great remorse, serious blunder..."

That’s laying it on pretty strong if Bjarne accepts Frank’s explanation that he was contracting for a training program only. Sounds as if BR is speaking from the opposite assumption.

From the CSC website:
"We were very disappointed to hear that Fränk has been in contact with people who have done great harm to the sport and ruthlessly tarnished the most important principles that we all should adhere to in the fight against doping. His behaviour has been irresponsible towards himself and his team…. He has shown great remorse in his attitude towards this serious blunder and he is fully aware that he has not been acting in accordance with the rules of the team", says Bjarne Riis who together with the management of the team will await further news about the case.

by NE Observer on Oct 3, 2008 1:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OK, if he wants to be forgiven

for this lapse in judgement (if we assume this is the truth) I would very much like to hear more from him.

Who are “these people”? He hasn’t met Fuentes but presumably someone else, no? You don’t just transfer 7000€ to someone on a whim.

Where does one get the tip that you can get training advice from “these people”? Presumably someone referred him to them. Who?

Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets

by Jens on Oct 3, 2008 6:51 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well British Cycling’s Max Sciandri tipped St David of the Slipstream to talk training with Cecchini. There’s loads of tipsters out there, many in very respectable jobs.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 3, 2008 6:59 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think Riis recommended him to Fuentes or associates.

Unfortunately, as much as I like Bjarne, I feel that he must have known what was going on. First Basso, now Schleck and in ’04 Jorge Jaksche was on CSC and had a good year at that.

by brunopitton on Oct 3, 2008 11:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm more inclined to believe

Riis————> Cecchini / Mr X -——> Fuentes

Riis is very vocal about not ever having had anything to do with Fuentes which I tend to believe. That doesn’t mean to say he hasn’t recommended his riders to seek “training advice” from someone else, who in turn has had dealings with Fuentes (perhaps unbeknown to Riis).

Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets

by Jens on Oct 3, 2008 11:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yep

I agree with this view. I don’t believe that Riis had direct dealings with Fuentes.

by gavia on Oct 3, 2008 11:59 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And yet SDZ say they have a witness who saw him and Basso meeting Fuentes in Madrid.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 3, 2008 12:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yep

I know, I read those articles too ;-)

Just not sure how it all fits together.

by gavia on Oct 3, 2008 12:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Does anyone know how much of a public figure Fuentes is?

Would anyone in Spain recognize him? If not, it seems like you have to know quite a bit of the behind the scene stuff to recognize Fuentes, Basso and Riis. Or having a very good memory, remembering faces that you saw a long time ago.

Bork, bork, bork!

by TheFigurehead on Oct 3, 2008 12:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, he was known in 1985, if this old El Pais story is to be believed. And he was responsible for the 1992 Barcelona Olympics squad. Oh, and his office has his name outside it too.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 3, 2008 12:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And yet SDZ say they have a witness who saw him and Basso meeting Fuentes in Madrid.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 3, 2008 12:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Newspaper reports of confirmable money trails I believe in

Newspaper reports of : “I know a guy who has an uncle who says his haidressers husband saw a gangly fellow and a bald guy outside the doctors office” – I don’t believe in.

Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets

by Jens on Oct 3, 2008 1:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

I think that’s about where I’m at with that report. I also tend to think that link from Schleck to Fuentes was Basso or Ceccho, not Riis directly.

by gavia on Oct 3, 2008 1:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yep

Makes sense to me. Wonder if Lombardi was at the meet and greet with Fuentes. That would make more sense to me than Riis actually.

by gavia on Oct 3, 2008 7:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

All that and...

Why wait this long? That is, if he knew he made a payment to Fuentes, and presumably he’s known for like 2 years now that this was a very bad thing, why not come clean sooner and get it over with? I guess he figured, like Valverde, that no one would press the issue. l’oops. Now, he looks stupid and guilty.

by gavia on Oct 3, 2008 11:47 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yep, this explanation is lacking.

Schleck paid 7000 euros to a doctor who provided doping products and services to at least two other CSC riders (Basso and Hamilton), and he did it at the same time that Fuentes was providing doping services to his teammate, Basso. That makes it a bit difficult to accept, without further details, that someone coincidentally told Schleck that he could receive training advice that had nothing to do with doping (but was worth 7000 euros) from Fuentes.

The fact that Schleck apparently made no additional payments suggests that he was never on the full Fuentes doping program, and his willingness to give a blood sample suggests that he never got to the point of storing blood. But, that doesn’t mean he didn’t get some sort of doping products or services from Fuentes. Tyler Hamilton’s records show that Fuentes provided more than just blood doping. Sure, 7000 euros probably couldn’t buy the full program that Hamilton and Ullrich were getting for their much larger payments, but Hamilton and Ullrich were highly-paid, big stars. Maybe a 7000-euro “starter program” was all Schleck could afford.

I’d like to believe there could be some innocent explantion for Schleck’s payment to Fuentes, but it’s going to take a better explanation than we’re getting so far.

by Tifosa on Oct 3, 2008 11:48 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

right there with you

To believe that Schleck never did anything wrong, I’d like to know more about this 7000 euro payment.

I also think it’s too bad that this thing is still going on, and the almost purely random way in which some riders get caught, while others don’t.

by gavia on Oct 3, 2008 12:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah some riders with their names on bags are still racing and winning

others were suspended and some are now being caught. But what is better, given the political nature of the ‘investigation’? catching a few while letting some go? or just shutting it down at this point?

by lyne on Oct 3, 2008 12:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmmm

I’ve tended to think for the last season or so that shutting it down is better – Shutting it down, that is, and using the information in that 5000 page report to target test the riders known to have used Fuentes services. That is, use the information to catch them red-handed, rather than indirectly through the politicized Puerto process. But eh, they do what they want.

by gavia on Oct 3, 2008 12:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets

by Jens on Oct 3, 2008 1:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

catching a few

is a better deterrent than catching none. It’s a bummer that the OP consequences are so random, and that this is being dragged out for so long, but I still think the investigations should continue. It’s pretty obvious now that doping was/is so entrenched in professional cycling that for some riders, the fear of getting caught is the only thing likely to deter them from doping. What this Schleck case tells doping riders is that they won’t be able to breathe easy if they just get through a race without testing positive, they’ll also have to worry that two or three years later, a paper trail could bring them down.

by Tifosa on Oct 3, 2008 12:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

makes sense

I guess I just have Puerto fatigue. Like, can we just get it over with already?

But I agree with your point – the more who get caught, the more deterrent there is. So eh, keep ’em coming.

by gavia on Oct 3, 2008 12:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Puerto fatigue

I hear that.

I still haven’t gotten over the disappointment of Basso and Ullrich’s OP involvement, and the thought that other favorites of mine could still be implicated is not fun.

by Tifosa on Oct 3, 2008 12:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Si...

That, and the constant ambiguity that goes with the evidence the case churns up. Since the press has been the one to press the issue consistently ahead of the authorities, we get bits and pieces of the evidence that are difficult to add up to a whole. I get really frustrated with that.

by gavia on Oct 3, 2008 12:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It is very frustrating and I waffle with wanting to shut Puerto down or keep it going

as I get frustrated when I see some riders winning and others, who I’ll have to admit that I enjoyed watching race, caught and sidelined in what seems purely random manner. And sometimes my frustration is exacerbated by media and fans taking hook, line & sinker some of the PR put out by teams.

But then I try and take a step back and agree that catching some is better than catching none, and that hopefully the randomness of it all will become a deterrent.

by lyne on Oct 3, 2008 12:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it’s too bad that this thing is still going on

You can’t the genie back in the bottle. The Spanish police screwed up by not checking whether any laws were being broken before they raided the place. But with the investigation file out there and circulating quicker than one of Greg LeMond’s phonecalls, this one will just run and run and run until we declare an amnesty.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 3, 2008 1:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So here's the perfect clip to describe Puerto

just imagine Peter Sellers is Operation Puerto and all the pashtuns represent cyclingfans around the world.

Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets

by Jens on Oct 4, 2008 3:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

spot on

Excellent analysis Tifosa.

by PopUp Rolen on Oct 3, 2008 12:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He has nothing to be forgiven for, see what speculation causes..

Just glad to finally read what happened…

I’ll still yes to marrying you Frank, i never doubted you.. Mwuuaaahhh

by CycleGirl on Oct 3, 2008 7:18 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

SCHLECK THE NEW BASSO?

Haven’t we heard this one before?

See ya in two years!

Hope we don’t see Andy involved too!

Racing for Victory and Free Beer!

by DemonCats on Oct 3, 2008 7:34 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, he can't be the new Basso

Because Fänk is ready to provide a blood sample and apparently there’s no money trail.

by OctaBech on Oct 3, 2008 7:59 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

IT Factory to make Damsgaard's data more easily available?

From CN:

IT Factory plans to create the first web-based anti-doping control system, “available to all cyclists and the general public alike. Our aim would be to make it more equal to the journalist, the critic and the public to get information about riders and teams. We’ve been talking to laboratories and specialists that welcome the initiative.” [It Factory’s CEO Stein] Bagger explained that the participating riders’ values from the laboratories would be published on a website, accessible to all. “We could imagine a dashboard graphic with a green, a yellow and a red area and a meter that tells you whether a rider is good to race or not. We’re used to simplifying very complicated things, as we work closely with business intelligence. I’m not saying it’s an easy task, but we’ll try to create something that would make it possible to look at every individual team and have the same way to compare them. By measuring their rider’s values, you could measure the teams. That would also mean getting the information faster to the media.”
Asked whether he thought many riders would want to collaborate in publishing their medical data, the IT Factory CEO replied, “Maybe not all values, because some of them might not be interesting to the media. But if the cyclists don’t want doping, and the teams don’t – why wouldn’t they? We’d like to put up a system free for everybody, accessible from all over the world. Any rider who would like to join it is welcome and will be helped.”

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 3, 2008 8:28 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

IT Factory's CEO is named Stein Bagger?

Bag of Rocks?

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.

by crashdan on Oct 3, 2008 1:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

a shame...

He was the strongest rider at Lombardia last year before he Schlecked.

by samboo on Oct 3, 2008 11:16 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Frank has a good support network around him,

his father Jonny who raced in the 70’s? He must have seen some awful stuff. Not to mention that he may feel he is a role model to Andy. I hope these things are what prevented him from making worse mistakes.

One other thing, how dumb are these cyclists? Most other criminals (if they are criminals) use cash because you can’t track it. Everyone knows this. Drugdealers don’t make transfers from bank accounts.

by brunopitton on Oct 3, 2008 11:46 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Drugdealers don’t make transfers from bank accounts.

Another reason to believe this wasn’t drug related?

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 3, 2008 11:53 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not another reason to believe it wasn't drug related.

But a reason to believe they’re idiots. Jan’s transfers were drug related, Schleck’s might be too. That’s like me writing a check for the 50 kilos of cocaine that just flew in. It’s a stupid way to do shady business.

by brunopitton on Oct 3, 2008 12:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

right

And the Lux authorities have said that there are no criminal charges pending against Schlecky. He just has to answer the sporting authorities.

Hmm, I think once all is said and done, he’s back racing. Unless, of course, there is more evidence than the 7000 euro.

by gavia on Oct 3, 2008 12:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Luxembourg Banking Secrecy

isn’t what it used to be.

Me and Fabian use Swiss accounts

by cyclingchallenge on Oct 3, 2008 2:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Irish banks are 100% state guaranteed. We’ll take your money.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 3, 2008 6:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Did that actually happen already?

I thought they were just talking about it…

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.

by crashdan on Oct 3, 2008 6:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Signed and passed into law. We move quicker than Congress :)

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 3, 2008 6:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow...

… I read an article yesterday that said the concept of that was, essentially, going to destroy the Euro as a currency.

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.

by crashdan on Oct 3, 2008 7:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That makes some of the doping speculation seem positively well informed. We’ve guaranteed six banks. The UK nationalised one bank last year, effectively 100% guaranteeing its deposits. There’s been a couple of other banks nationalised on the European mainland. Yes, there are mutterrings in some quarters. But there’s always muttering in some quarters.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 4, 2008 4:18 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Presumably they never expected anyone to investigate, no one ever did in the past

After all, in their minds, they weren’t doing anything wrong.

Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets

by Jens on Oct 3, 2008 11:54 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he will not be the last either...

when “they” (whoever they is) coin it the “era” (whatever that is) we should just admit to ourselves that the sport is/was rotten to the core of cheaters. Always has been.

They all did it. Positive or not. I can not think of one rider that is not implicated in one way or another with either use of illegal methods or tied to a doctor/team of organized doping. Not a single one.

by humbug1 on Oct 3, 2008 12:49 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mouncoutie?

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 3, 2008 12:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Did Frank use a "Code Name"? Name of his dog, favorite fjord, pet wombat?

Seems like most of the Puerto buggers all used crazy kooky names like piti….

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.

by crashdan on Oct 3, 2008 1:25 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I thought he was Tranquilo? Now I’m getting confussed.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 3, 2008 1:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They're all Tranquillo

They have nothing to hide. They have nothing to fear. They will cooperate fully and shall be proven clean. Yada yada.

by sylvan on Oct 3, 2008 1:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

All of em?

So Tranquilo is like Spartacus?

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 3, 2008 1:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Basso?

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.

by crashdan on Oct 3, 2008 1:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ha!

He does look a bit like a Linguine. But Barillo is actually a blue robot cartoon character. And his dog.

by gavia on Oct 3, 2008 6:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A wombat

could never live in Luxembourg. Silly crashdan.

by australopithecine on Oct 3, 2008 3:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Looking back,

F. Schleck did have an amazing season in 2006…
Whether his Fuentes connection played a part of it, I don’t know, but color me skeptical after the press release today, what a joke, do the riders really think we fans are idiots?
He paid money for training advise to someone he did not know, yet his team is known for it’s great training, testing, team bonding etc. practices, so why did he go outside? and claim he never heard of Fuentes, who was fluiding half of the peloton, also his teammates… gimme a break.

by Bruce Suomi on Oct 3, 2008 3:25 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why only 2006?

He also had an amazing later half of 2005 where he ended as no. 13 in the Pro Tour.

2007 wasn’t half bad either where he always was to be found in top 10.

And it would be sad to call 2008 a bad year, he did after all perform better in the Tour, became champion of Luxemburg a second time and he became second to Damiano in Amstel.

by OctaBech on Oct 4, 2008 7:36 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You guys are killing me

Done nothing wrong….C’mon he paid some known dope doctor for “training”?
No laws were broken…. Spanish laws? Give me a break.
No blood stored…Dumby got popped before he could make a deposit.

This guy is as guilty as ANYONE else. Period.
If you want to put Hamilton, Basso, Ullrich, etc. in a black hole and throw away the key; add this guy to the list. And enough with the old generation line of crap, this guy was what..26 when this was going on.
GUILTY, GUILTY, and oh yeah GUILTY

Wake up, folks
Have a good weekend, though.

If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when are you going to have time to do it again?

by CannonDowell on Oct 3, 2008 3:56 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ewwwww

Why is it narrow minded people always think they are so damned smart and righteous? :(

All existing big names in the sport can in some way be linked to doping because too many have closed their eyes allowing doping to become a culture, what’s important is that the sponsors are beginning to award teams for fighting doping, for taking responsibility.

Blind hate is not going to help the sport in any way, we can’t just shut down teams because we have a vague suspicion without solid proof to back it up. The court system was created to prevent the “we only came down from the trees yesterday” mentality.
Fact is that there’s no link between Riis and T-Mobile style organized doping, actually there’s the direct opposite in Jörg’s testimony.
And we can’t decided if Fränk was planning to dope without having heard his testimony and the names he has mentioned, the prosecute and sponsors will obviously ask for better answers if these aren’t satisfying!

Yes Fränk may not be telling the entire truth and did intended to dope, but there’s no evidence that he got that far. Now should we penalise a young man for almost making a mistake(who will throw the first stone?) while letting everyone else go free or reward him for staying clean since?

The same with Riis, there’s all this blind hate because he admitted having doped without getting caught(in reality most hate him because his team beat their favourite teams :P).
Should we really just forget all the initiatives he has been taking in the fight against doping which is more than can be said about most other sports directors who some seem to prefer because they never came clean?

What we suspect happened in the past is of less importance than what we know is going on today. Or at least that’s my opinion and I honestly believe the sport stands to lose more if we kill off all the big names like Valverde(What a boring Vuelta it would have been) who seems to ride clean(no longer climbing at Lance Basso pace) than a muddy past ever could do to the sport.

by OctaBech on Oct 3, 2008 4:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ease up a wee bit there...

Focus on the content of a members comment… not their personality or motive :) I think you’re post above is perfecto ’cept for that first sentence…

Carry on… welcome to the Cafe…

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.

by crashdan on Oct 3, 2008 6:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is rather embarrassing, sorry

But please believe me when I say that though my post clinch very well with CannonDowell’s it was intended to be directed at the debate in general.

Not being fully accustomed to this board’s way of aligning posts, I actually thought the “Post a Comment” box was placed in alignment with the topic post. :( Don’t even remember pressing the ‘reply’ button in his post.

Shrug It was never the intention to make my début in a serious topic with a personal attack :) I hope you can forgive me, CannonDowell.

by OctaBech on Oct 4, 2008 4:18 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no worries

To put a post at the very bottom of the thready, just scroll all the way down to the very bottom to reply box that’s sitting down there. If you hit a reply linky, it will thread your reply after that specific message. LOL, sounds more complicated than it is.

And welcome to the party :-)

by gavia on Oct 4, 2008 12:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh, no problem

Hope you find your time here fun! I do. Lots of great perspectives. In all fairness, I was a little brash.
Happy Trails.

If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when are you going to have time to do it again?

by CannonDowell on Oct 4, 2008 1:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol

How do you really feel about that?

Me, I’ve always thought Schlecky was the most likely fit for amigo di birillo, so it doesn’t really surprise me at this point. Lombardi? Why would he bother at that point in his career? Mazzoleni, well, he clearly had his own thing going on. But it is true that Schlecky did not break any law, so there’s no criminal prosecution possible. And the sporting authorities are going to have a hard time nailing him at this point – they’ll need more than a payment to Fuentes for that. It was a long time ago, after all. With the level of evidence at this point, at most the Lux Fed can give him a slap on the wrist type sanction – 3 months maybe, during the off-season – like Diluca got for visiting Santuccione.

I’ve never known what to make of the Riis connection. I tend to think it doesn’t exist. But eh, been wrong before. Basso, Lombardi, Ceccho, these seem like the most likely links for the Amigo to Fuentes.

We’ll see soon enough what happens.

by gavia on Oct 3, 2008 7:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Podium Cafe 101

Don’t attack other members.
But since we started…Is it narrow minded and righteous to think a guy is guilty from a known payment.

Let’s just say that i paid a hooker 15 bucks for whatever and she happens to be an undercover cop, Guilty according to law.

I agree with all of your other points and BTW, i really don’t care if Riis doped, i like him.
Cheers,

If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when are you going to have time to do it again?

by CannonDowell on Oct 3, 2008 5:02 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sorry it wasn't meant to be personal

I’ve tried to explain my mistake in a post above. :)

by OctaBech on Oct 4, 2008 4:21 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Whatever Fränk did or didn't do with Fuentes,

the PR CSC put out todaywas just ridiculous.
I seriously doubt Fränk is so stupid that he paid 7000 euros to a stranger for a training program?
Does someone seriously believe that?
I don’t and I don’t like being treated as an idiot.

by Bruce Suomi on Oct 3, 2008 5:18 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well...

Take out who was involved for a moment… to me… €7000 for the elite training for someone at the highest levels of a sport = ~$10,000 (although that’s 2008 dollars) sounds about right. If I were to keep the same schedule with my trainer (which I wouldn’t be able to afford) of meeting three times a week for basic core and strength training I’d be paying 1/3 of that price over the course of a year and neither he nor I are anywhere near “elite” so… either I’m getting screwed on price or maybe Frank got a deal?

Maybe he actually got trained?

Nah…

(the angel of “wait for proof” vs. the devil of “cynicism” are wrestlin’ on ma shoulders right now)

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.

by crashdan on Oct 3, 2008 6:07 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If there was training involved, there should be, I don't know...

a training schedule from Fuentes & co, designed for Frank?
an eating and sleeping chart?
meditation tapes?
some recorded measurements?
some evidence of being in the same place at the same time for more than 10 minutes?
I have no intrinsic problem with 7000€ paying for something legal. But not something legal, unrecorded, invisible and instantaneous. So…a bit more detail, Frank, please.
  
Might be that Frank was trying out some fancy mixed supplements, and thought he might have strayed over the line. Didn’t want to get himself tested officially by the team, or by any legit lab. Soooo… they found a doc reputed to walk on both sides of the line to check him out and find out if he popped up “dirty” or not. That could well be 7K worth of tests and annonymity. He’d only need one work-up to confirm that “super muscle booster with whey protein” was not “super T enhanced”…at least, not to the point of showing up on the tests. (Sure, you could test the supplements, but what you most want to know, presumably, is not whether they are detectably dirty, but whether they make you detectably dirty. Plus, I’m pretty sure that in those days, the dirty sports docs were the first to know about any new test.) Anyway, that would be embarassing enough to try to keep things “tranquilo” for years, without being “doping” in its own right.

by JFS_PGH on Oct 6, 2008 6:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Does anyone know how much LA paid Ferrari?

or Dekker paid Cecchini (while he was still with him)? I’d be curious to know the fee of these doctors – not that we’ll ever know.

by lyne on Oct 3, 2008 8:31 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

there was just chatter about this somewhere recently

According to eh, maybe Simeoni, Ferrari had a graded fee schedule. I want to say that it started around 10-20 000 euro and went up from there.

In the Basso and Ullrich cases, Basso paid Fuentes at least 40 000 euro for the year 2006.

by gavia on Oct 3, 2008 8:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

meant to add

There was an interview a while back – Italian rider, and I really do think it was Simeoni – who talked about how Ferrari worked.

by gavia on Oct 3, 2008 8:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no problemo

the 7000 struck me as bizarrely small relative to what i’ve seen about these other cases.

hard to say, though

by gavia on Oct 3, 2008 8:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Armstrong testified in court

That he paid Ferrari in excess of six figures over 9 years but less than a million dollars. Of course that testimony is the biggest bunch of BS you will ever read. I’d bet he paid him a very large sum. On a side note, it’s interesting that Armstrong said his relationship with Ferrari was suspended while Ferrari’s legal prosecution in Italy was continuing. Ferrari’s case was later resolved without guilt due to a statute of limitations issue. Has anyone asked Armstrong specifically if he is still working with Ferrari?

As for Schleck, I guess it could be possible someone used him to settle a debt with Fuentes. It’s also very possible that Schleck was just starting to work with Fuentes and stopped after Puerto broke. As for CSC, I’m not naive enough to believe doping is still not continuing in the team after performances like Voigt’s in the GIro. I do believe Damsgaard’s program has mitigated it’s frequency a good bit.

by mysterion on Oct 4, 2008 2:46 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not convinced by the Schleck bit

OK if it was some 18 year old stagiaire then maybe, but Schleck should have known of Fuentes reputation by then and have got his “friend” to do his own transfers. Go and listen to the interview with Betsy Andreu over at competitorsradio.com Even the wives knew who the dodgy doctors were.

by Monty. on Oct 4, 2008 5:23 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's only speculation about the Giro

Remember Voigt was the only rider specifically mentioned in public by Jaksche. Jorg went out of his way to call out Jens as "humanly unacceptable " (when translated). I think what Jens did in the Giro was just about as suspicious as Schumacher in the Tour or some of the CSF guys in the Giro.

by mysterion on Oct 4, 2008 3:42 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I chose to take comfort in Jens' suggestion

that UCI made a forced DNA bank for all riders who want to participate at an elite level, so the authorities can compare the blood of all riders in cases like OP, even those who aren’t under suspicion..

But yes, Voigt is inhuman. I love watching this family man giving everything he has gasping after air for then to give away a clear(most likely) win to a young rider who isn’t even from the same team.

by OctaBech on Oct 4, 2008 5:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jaksche's point

Was that Voigt is a huge hypocrite when it comes to doping matters. I enjoyed what he did for Garate as well but that’s separate from doping stuff.

by mysterion on Oct 4, 2008 6:47 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pfff but

Jörg had no evidence nor did he to my memory claim to have seen Voigt dope.

So the accusation goes under the suspicion category and without anything else to back it up we got good old fashion slander which is impossible to defend against. :(

by OctaBech on Oct 4, 2008 7:17 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Didn't Jaksche say something like

Voigt came up to him and said “what did you do with your stuff? We buried ours.”

by Monty. on Oct 4, 2008 7:25 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He did.

Doesn’t mean I believe hime.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 4, 2008 7:27 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He also said it was a joke

And it does rather sound like one:

Jaksche said that when he talked to Jens Voigt, the rider said that someone from his team suggested to bury all the stuff along the race route and pick it up after the Tour. While Voigt does not remember details of the conversation he agrees that “we talked about doping all the time back then,” and thinks it’s possible he joked about something like that.

cyclingnews

by majope on Oct 4, 2008 7:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jaksche also said

he knew what Voigt was up to when they both rode for CSC in 2004. Anyway, I think Jens is good for the sport because he inspires such passion in fans but I think he might have been up to something this year as well. Hopefully none of the Tour re-testing will turn up positive but if it does I wouldn’t be surprised if a CSC rider is in the mix.

by mysterion on Oct 4, 2008 8:06 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Voigt was riding for Legeay at the time the Jaksche story is supposed to have place, wasn’t he?

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 4, 2008 9:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know. It makes Jaksche look so …

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 4, 2008 1:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you're hit the fan dilemna on the head

perfectly okay to speculate about non liked or unknowns but can’t go around speculating about a liked rider

by lyne on Oct 4, 2008 11:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When did speculating become the same as

accusing and demanding the rider’s head on a stick? It would be nice with a wall of evidence between that jump. :)

It reminds me of a funny observation a friend once made, on the net people often confuse “I think” with “I hope” and “I hope”.

by OctaBech on Oct 4, 2008 11:51 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I almost forgot

“I believe” because faith isn’t rational deduction :)

by OctaBech on Oct 4, 2008 12:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well..

There are no house rules here against speculation. If someone writes a post accusing a rider of doping without sources, then, yes, the editors would not smile upon that. But it would be nearly impossible to discuss these issues without speculating and without considering the he said-she said nature of the evidence, such as it is. Everyone can evaluate these things for his/her self. In this case, the discussion about Voigt is in part related to the public statements of Jorg Jacksche. You may not find JJ or the discussion credible. Fair enough, but others may disagree, and discussion is the point of a place like this.

by gavia on Oct 4, 2008 12:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Have all the Doctors declared their income

from these riders.

Remember how the USA caught Al Capone, Tax evasion.

by cyclingchallenge on Oct 5, 2008 1:47 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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