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Tour de France Positives: What Now?

Catching up with the Dopers
A Special Report from the Gossip World Headquarters

D_medium Right on schedule, the French and UCI anti-doping authorities delivered the first three CERA positives from this year's Tour de France. Double-triple special tested with all the latest and greatest sciencey bits. Leonardo Piepoli (expected), Stefan Schumacher (mostly expected), and Riccardo Riccò (redundant) are the leading trio in the latest doping scandal to hit cycling. Predictions call for seven more by the end of this week. At this point, we have little reason to doubt the accuracy of these predictions. Watch out for that tsunami. Objects in this mirror may be closer than they appear.

Wednesday Update. There are a few updates in today's press worth noting. Rather than starting a whole 'nother thready on this topic, I'll drop an update here.

Gazzetta dello Sport reports that the authorities will announce one more positive today or tomorrow. The positive rider is of the top level, but not a major star. Whatever that means. Christian Prudhomme, the Tour de France director, says today that he expects one to two more positives, not more, and together with the UCI he criticizes the press for speculating. Bad press, very bad press. We feel suitably chastised. No, really.

• Pierre Bordry tells us two new tidbits today. First, the labs are working on samples from 3, 4, and 15 July. The testing is not yet complete.

Second, according to Bordry, 30 riders have anamolous blood levels that could indicate blood doping. This news repeats Bordry's original announcement about the re-testing - that the blood tests from about 30 riders raised suspicions and would be re-tested. This number grew in the telling to 40, and shifted wildly between being the re-test pool and the positive pool. It's clear from a careful read of Bordry's own statements, though, that the 30 riders are under scrutiny for abnormal levels. The labs have now tracked down the cause of three of those anamolies: CERA. "Soon, we will have the ability to prove autologus blood doping [doping with one's own blood], and we will re-test the samples," Bordry told German television channel ZDF. In the same interview, Bordry reiterated that there are currently 30 riders under scrutiny for abnormal blood parameters, though he declined to identify them "until later." He also noted that one of the riders who showed abnormal levels in the testing in Brest where the Tour began, one reverted to normal levels in subsequent testing. Bordry commented that they were surprised by how much this rider's levels changed during the race and how poorly he performed.

• Riccò is now confirmed positive for CERA on four occasions. Apparently more is better.

• The samples from the Olympics in Beijing for all sports will be re-tested for CERA.

• The Luxembourg ADA is continuing their investigation into the relationship between Fränk Schleck and Dr. Fuentes. Though not strictly related to the Tour positives, we can keep the story going here, since so far, there isn't much story out there. In a hearing held last week, Schleck admitted to paying Fuentes, but claimed never to have doped. The ADA, acting on information from the German authorities, are examining whether sufficient evidence exists to confirm a doping violation from Schleck. The Germans have suggested that there is. The Luxembourg ADA will reconvene and deliberate the case, once their investigation is complete. It remains unclear at this point, if the Luxembourg ADA is simply doing due diligence in the case or if real evidence confirming Schleck's use of Fuentes's services exists. We await more information.

End, Update. Read the original post below the fold.

Star-divide

Adverse Findings. If there's a positive side to the deepening spiral of scandal, it's the collaboration among the world's anti-doping authorities to catch up quickly with one of the newest doping methods. The collaboration began following the Giro when authorities in Italy found, but could not identify, a new and suspicious substance in some of the samples from the Giro. There followed much head-scratching, until first a urine, then a blood test for CERA emerged. Two labs, using two related, though distinct methods, screened this week's positives, before declaring an adverse analytical finding. The UCI lab in Lausanne and the AFLD lab at Chatenay-Malabry both certified the results. Cooperation among the Initial People. Perhaps the rapprochement between the UCI and the ASO really does mean peace in our time.

Betrayal! Oh woe, Oh woe! "We have all been betrayed by this man," said Holczer, DS of the soon-to-be disbanded Gerolsteiner team. Holczer has complained loudly and often about doping, but plainly could not keep his own house in order. Watch out for falling stones, Herr Holczer. The German Federation announced Tuesday that they had received the information about the Schumacher case, and would seek at minimum a 2 year ban for the German. They are also seriously considering a fine.

"Nonsense!" The German Olympic Committee, meanwhile, may also seek a reimbursement from Schumacher of his travel expenses from the Olympics. A round trip ticket from Germany to Beijing could be rather spendy. And I doubt very much Schumacher traveled coach. According to a Tuesday statement, Schumacher certified to them that he had never used doping. He lied to us! Shocker! If the Schumacher case stands up under the lawyers' scrutiny, the German Olymplic Committee will in all likelihood line up for its pound of flesh. Schumacher, who returned the positive tests at the start of the Tour in Brest on 3 July and in Toulouse before stage 9 on 15 July, said that he had "not undertaken doping" and called the charges "nonsense." Stefan, I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Denkpause. Elsewhere in Germany, the national television networks, ARD and ZDF, are again making their usual noises about ending their Tour de France coverage. Another day, another scandal, another threat of boycott. Do we believe them this time? Look! Over there! A wolf! Peter Danckert of the German Bundestag, called for an end to state funding for the German Cycling Federation. Danckert, a member of the Social Democratic Party (SPD), argued that cycling was "still not strict enough against doping." Thomas Bach, a vice president of the IOC, called for a "denkpause" for cycling, a temporary exclusion of cycling from the Olympics. The credibility of cycling is "null," he claimed.

A Nail in the Coffin. German riders, well aware of the threat the new scandal poses to their livelihood, reacted with disbelief. Because, really, they never could have imagined anyone would use doping, could they? Linus Gerdemann was "shocked" by the newest scandal. "Words fail me," he said. Jens Voigt, whose name has surfaced in the recent rumorage, commented that he hoped that this latest scandal was not the "final nail in the coffin" for cycling. We hope that also, Jens, and we hope even more that you are not going to help nail the coffin shut, mmm? Sebastian Lang, a team mate of Stefan Schumacher, recounted that the team "celebrated" the news of the CERA test. All, that is, except Schumacher, who became "quiet and withdrawn." Truth or fiction? You be the judge.

Share and share alike. Suspicion has quickly turned to Bernhard Kohl, who roomed with Stefan Schumacher during the Tour de France. It's not a good time for room-mates: Riccardo Riccò and Leonardo Piepoli now joined in the CERA scandal, also shared rooms during the Tour. Contacted for comment, Kohl said he did not want to say anything until the news became official. He also criticized the speculation that has animated the press over the last week. Rumor continues to predict that a rider at the highest levels of the classification is among the forthcoming positives. Which one? As if we know that. Who do you think we are, Clair Fucking-Voyant?

Run away! Run away! Run away! In the meantime, Patrick Lefevere has proven quick to disavow Stefan Schumacher, whom he hired to ride for QuickStep next year. We have only a provisional contract with Schumacher, he explained. It does not go into effect until 1 January. "At the moment, Schumacher has nothing to do with the reality of QuickStep," asserted Lefevere. In the words of an anonymous Italian commenter, "Mamma mia, such hypocrisy!' Not so excited about Schumacher any more, are we now Patrick. And that sound you hear in the background? That's Paolo Bettini, laughing his ass off. Careful there, Paolo, don't spill your Brunello.

Che sera sera. In Italy, the reaction appears muted next to the hand-wringing and doom-speak in Germany. After the positive tests of Riccardo Riccò, the news that Leonardo Piepoli had his hand in the same CERA cookie jar is not the stuff of revelation. Nor, it seems, is the news that Riccò tested positive twice more, on 4 July in Brest and 15 July in Pau. Funny how they both tested positive on exactly the same days. Ha! Ha! CONI will treat the additional positives for Riccò as part of the same offense: same race, same dope, different day. The Modenese will not receive an additional sanction.

TGIF? For his part, Piepoli has a meet-and-greet with CONI on Friday at noon. CONI already had an interest in Piepoli, after Riccò named his team-mate in an effort to shake loose a shortened sanction. He only partly succeeded. Though Piepoli carried a Monaco license, CONI is taking the lead in his case so far. The decisions of the Monaco Federation seem unlikely to matter. So far, they've warranted no mention in the press. Anyway, should any disagreements arise, a quick trip to TAS should resolve them. Mauro Gianetti, DS of Saunier Duval, declared himself "disgusted" by the actions of Riccò and Peipoli. "I hope that they do not return again to the bunch," he said.

Now What? What ever do we do now, you ask? We wait. And hit refresh a lot. The next seven positives are due later this week. Some riders are probably still not sleeping well. Snarky, that Pierre Bordry. In his most recent interview with France 2, Bordry declined to comment on the names involved. When pressed on the question of late withdrawals from the World Championships, he said nothing. But he did look like he knew something we don't know. All things, both good and bad, come to those who wait. In the meantime? Let's go for a bike ride.

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More from Podium Cafe

Comparing The Grand Tour Teams

Apr 2009 by ursula - 95 comments

Comments

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Excellent summary

Of all the news I’ve read and websites I’ve visited in the last 48 hours, this brief piece right here sums us exactly what has happened, is happening and expected to happen.

Well done gavia.

by PopUp Rolen on Oct 7, 2008 2:10 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yay!

thanks – that was the goal :-)

by gavia on Oct 7, 2008 2:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+ many

as usual

"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."

by Chris... on Oct 7, 2008 2:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

great summary as usual
Let’s go for a bike ride.

it’s really the only solution

by cyclingchallenge on Oct 7, 2008 2:11 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol, yeah

unless there’s surf. then, i might have to go surfing instead ;-)

by gavia on Oct 7, 2008 2:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

cool

waterproof camera? (as I demand photos)

by cyclingchallenge on Oct 7, 2008 2:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol, no

‘fraid not. And I don’t think I’m talented enough to shoot and surf at the same time :-P

there are some peeps doing some fab stuff with water photog these days though. pretty sweet. there are some great shots here.

by gavia on Oct 7, 2008 2:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

still caught up in my cleaning frenzy

which strangely matches the happenings in the cycling world…mmmm

by lyne on Oct 7, 2008 2:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

when you're done

wanna come over to the gav shack? gaaah, this place needs a cleaning.

by gavia on Oct 7, 2008 2:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol, yeah

or, i’ll just forget about the cleaning and go ride my bikey. much better, no?

by gavia on Oct 7, 2008 3:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hmm, yes

I try to avoid letting her see anything like that.

Gav <—- not so tidy

by gavia on Oct 7, 2008 6:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I then had a presentation, complete with visual aids,

designed to educate me in the cleaning of said bath. I mean it’s not that I don’t know how to clean it……I’m a busy person!!! Gargh.

by Albertina on Oct 7, 2008 6:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

right there with ya

life is too short for such things

by gavia on Oct 7, 2008 6:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Really

Clean up the house, and six months later you’ll just have to do it again.

by majope on Oct 7, 2008 6:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

absolutely not

Priorities… priorities.

by hkbirke on Oct 7, 2008 9:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not when you clean the bike in the bathtub…

Besides when I clean I can’t find a freaking thing.
Fred (also not a tidy freak. Sorry ladies.)

by Fred Marx on Oct 8, 2008 12:51 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

my bike is cleaner than my bathtub

well if you’d stop cleaning your bike in the bathtub like you’ve been told before that might not be the case.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 8, 2008 3:25 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Perhaps

some of the maintenance crew at Gossip World Headquarters could help? Or maybe not.

by Katiek on Oct 7, 2008 3:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

we seem to have a shortage

of applicants for maintenance duties at the Gossip World Headquarters. I can’t imagine why that would be. Maybe the vast quantities of gossip bits and pieces scattered around the place. Interested parties are encouraged to apply.

by gavia on Oct 7, 2008 3:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, good plan.

But I want my new bike. Which I probably can’t have for about 3 weeks. I also ordered a nice new saddle two weeks ago and has it come? No. So irksome.

by Albertina on Oct 7, 2008 6:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you're waiting for a new bike too?

i think we’re in about the same time frame :) kinda the wrong end of the season to making such a purchase, but opportunity has knocked and spring is just too far away!

by nickel17 on Oct 8, 2008 10:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes! Can't wait until the spring-nasty weather will not deter me from riding :-)

I don’t know for sure which one to go for yet. They’re going to get a couple in for me to try but one of them isn’t even in the warehouse yet (waiting for 2009 models!). Am currently very annoyed as the new saddle I ordered is out of stock. It took them TWO WEEKS from my initial order to tell me that!!!

by Albertina on Oct 8, 2008 11:27 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

good help is hard to find...

mine is being put together for me by a couple of Symmetrics guys, so i feel lucky :)

by nickel17 on Oct 8, 2008 11:35 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Literary prose

You make it out like a greek tragedy. Goal for Gavia. Bravo.

by spokejunky on Oct 7, 2008 2:25 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Che CERA, CERA!

Bad Germans, Austrians (presumably), Italians, and Italian-Monégasques!

…and ’tis funny how the Spanish never dope and yet ride like banshees for for the whole of the season! Almost too good to be true, one might say!

Lastly, is Jens is found to have doped in these last few years (what he may have done in the late 80’s/early 90’s is a matter for the State’s conscience), then I think I quit!

by phawley on Oct 7, 2008 2:32 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

che cera, cera...

now that gave me a chuckle :)

by nickel17 on Oct 8, 2008 10:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Christian Prudhomme
“Police seem to be ahead of thieves, which is something we could not have imagined a few years back. Those who have cheated must tell themselves that they will get caught. I imagine there could be one or two more cases but we are a long way from the list announced by some.”

Via Reuters.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 7, 2008 3:20 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Prudhomme Can't Hide His Pride. Or Refrain From Kicking the UCI.
“It’s very good. It allows us to confound the cheaters What’s being done at the Tour de France has never existed in the world of sport, in no competition. People in the street ask me: ‘How did that come out so late?’ In July, the process wasn’t legitimate at the time … These tests are of a new type. It’s clear that those who have cheated, we’re not going to consider that they won. We are not the ones who do the rankings, but I can’t see how they can stay.”

AP

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 7, 2008 5:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

IOC VP Thomas Bach's comment (extended mix)
“This is a hard blow for the credibility of men’s road cycling. Obviously, the riders have not changed their mentality. They had a chance to do so, but they did not and this makes it even worse. I hope that now these stakeholders realize that they have to join this program and work seamlessly together. They have to react. The credibility of men’s road race cycling is at stake. I am confident that UCI will react and will call upon the other stakeholders to join and to work hand in hand. They have made an effort, but it’s not enough if you have no real collaboration and co-operation. The UCI has to be the leader.”

link

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 7, 2008 3:23 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

UCI Rabid Response

Pat McQuaid to AP:

“It is completely unacceptable for Thomas Bach to be saying this. I don’t like talking about other sports, but there are other sports with persistent problems. Instead of firing guns at cycling he should fire guns equally at them as well. These athletes are killing cycling in Germany and damaging it around the rest of the world. That doesn’t mean the whole sport should suffer. Why should they be threatened because of a few bad apples? We are weeding out the bad apples, make no mistake about it. No one can say the UCI and cycling authorities are not doing their utmost to find cheats and get them out of the sport. This is a low point, there is no doubt about it. Our resolve is to completely get rid of the cheats from cycling.”

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 7, 2008 3:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thanks

for all the updates. This is getting very, very interesting.

"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."

by Chris... on Oct 8, 2008 6:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that one is more or less what he said in august in beijing when fahey said cycling and weightlifting could face the drop. so unoriginal in the uci. there’s 50 ways to love your leaver but they have only one way of saying you’re not kicking us out of the olympics.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 8, 2008 7:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bach on Beijing Retests
“They have to check what was the substance used in the Tour de France, and what was the method being applied to detect it. They then have to compare it with the testing in Beijing and decide whether it makes sense to open (the samples) now.”

AP

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 7, 2008 3:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The IOC is interesting

Stalling there, from Bach it seems, though he’s quick to call for the expelling of cycling from the olympics.

by gavia on Oct 7, 2008 6:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think he’s back-pedalled on banning us from the Olympics.

Odd that he’s German. You’d almost imagine this soundbyte was manufactured for a home audience and not an Olympic one.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 8, 2008 3:26 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ioc to retest all beijing doping samples for a blood-booster drug

"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind

by umwolverine on Oct 8, 2008 9:48 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This Bach dude clearly needs a good kicking.

The AFLD retests a dozen or so samples, catches a few junkies and what do we get? Cycling is dirty, kick em out of the Olympics.

The IOC calls to retest all 5,000+ samples, presumably in the expectation of cacthing someone, and what do we get from Bach?

“This clearly demonstrates the determination that there is zero tolerance, and that we will use all the means available to catch the cheaters.”

They do, it’s zero tolerance. We do it, we’re dirty.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 8:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

UCI Claims The Glory

UCI press release:

The UCI congratulates the AFLD on the excellent work it carried out during the Tour de France. The collaboration with the AFLD shows that cycling as a whole rejects any kind of doping and is committed to eradicating cheating.
The correspondence of the results obtained by the AFLD with the information gathered under the biological passport system confirms the reliability of the latter. The biological passport was introduced this year and will soon be fully operational.
A thorough approach and the deployment of all possible means are vital if we are to safeguard the interests of those riders who are clean, who make up the great majority of the peloton. Such rigour applies to all concerned. In this respect, the UCI was extremely disappointed to learn of the allegations made recently by several media organisations regarding a number of riders, whose names were mentioned, completely unfairly, in this context.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 7, 2008 3:29 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Can we please have the scene

with him tuning the screws on Valverde, with the cinnamon-bun hairstyle: “Give us the location of Fuentes secret rebel-base or else……………”

Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets

by Jens on Oct 7, 2008 4:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Or an old wrinkled Pat McQuaid in a robe to Riccardo Ricco:

“As you can see, my young apprentice, your friends have failed. Now ,witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational biological passport program!”

Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets

by Jens on Oct 7, 2008 4:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Or an old wrinkled Pat McQuaid

That’s probably about how long the soon in the UCI’s comment about the passport coming on stream really implies.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 7, 2008 4:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

bahahahaha

I really enjoyed that one. Just saw it when I came in. Heh.

These talking heads, so funny.

by gavia on Oct 7, 2008 5:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LADA Refuses To Sweep Schleck Under The Carpet
The Luxembourg anti-doping agency is expanding an investigation against Frank Schleck, one of the stars of this summer’s Tour de France. […] But the agency ruled on Tuesday it was insufficient to declare him innocent and said in a statement it will widen the probe.

AP

Fränk , Fränk , what teh hell have you gone and done Fränk ?

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 7, 2008 4:49 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Heh, the AP report sounds very ominous

The l’equipe report sounded more routine. Ie, we’ve talked to Frank, he said he paid for training, but never doped. We are doing supplementary investigation – the German authorities are of the opinon that Schleck may have committed a doping infraction. Once we’ve done the investigation, we’ll reconvene to deliberate. Huh, I guess that’s the same as the AP anyway.

by gavia on Oct 7, 2008 6:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nice post as usual Gavia

This latest fiasco is like one of those powerpoint presentations with pictures of people that died in car crashes. You are afraid to look, but you can’t help but want to see the faces of the accident victims laying 10 feet from the bodies they formerly belonged to. Bring on Friday!!!

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Oct 7, 2008 5:31 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks...

… now I’m too scared to drive home. Guess I’ll be sleeping under my desk…

by Noah on Oct 7, 2008 5:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol

I’m sure Dominoes will deliver.

by gavia on Oct 7, 2008 6:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

'What ever do we do now, you ask? We wait. And hit refresh a lot'

Yes. I feel my forefinger may be slightly overworked this week. I mustn’t give myself RSI.

by Albertina on Oct 7, 2008 6:20 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ja

The auto-update thingy just isn’t fast enough, is it. I must keep hitting refresh…

by gavia on Oct 7, 2008 6:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Were there any control samples?

From the standpoint of accurate science and checks on procedures … I’m curious about the samples that were sent to the French lab from the Swiss lab. My understanding is that a rider is positive only if both labs find evidence of CERA in the blood. But what was/is the procedure for these tests?

I can think of two obvious ways it might be done:
1. The Swiss lab sent the French lab a dozen samples, with a message equivalent to “We found these samples to be positive – could you check them for us?”
2. The Swiss lab sent the French lab twenty or so samples, with a message equivalent to “We think some of these are positive. Could you check all of them and let us know which ones you think are positive?”

To me, there’s a very clear distinction between these two processes, and I am really only comfortable with the analysis if the second procedure was used (and if both labs agree on which samples are positive and which ones are negative). I’d like to see all of the dopers gone, but I’m appalled at the sloppiness that seems – by all accounts – to be pervasive in the testing labs. If the first procedure is being used, I think there is substantial pressure on the French lab to find all of the samples positive, increasing the risk of a false positive and hence of running someone who is innocent out of the sport.

So the presence or absence of double-blind negative controls (all samples are coded, and the French don’t know which ones are negative before they do the analysis) is crucial and I wish some reporter would ask about it and report it.

by GreylockGrinder on Oct 7, 2008 8:23 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Third option...

My understanding is that entire pool of suspect samples went to both labs – not the process of elimination you suggest here. At the outset they announced that samples from 40 riders would be re-tested because of anamolous findings. It was unclear at the outset just what made those samples anamolous – so, given the new test for CERA, they would be checked for CERA. So, the French lab tested the 40 samples their way, the Swiss lab tested the 40 samples their way, and if both found a positive, voilà a doping violation.

I curse the Landis lawyers for creating this impression that the labs are sloppy, though at this point, that is the least of Landis’s sins.

by gavia on Oct 7, 2008 8:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yep - my understanding is that the first tests done pre/during the Tour showed some anomalies

those tests were done on urine. Now they have Cera tests that can be done on the blood samples, also taken from the same riders at the same time.

by lyne on Oct 7, 2008 8:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

anamolous-ness

I believe they tested a pool beyond the suspicious urine tests and went also after the blood samples with anamolous levels.

by gavia on Oct 7, 2008 8:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

mmm, interesting

okay will need to re-read the French articles on this one

by lyne on Oct 7, 2008 8:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is also worth remembering that the B samples have yet to be tested for this round of positives, killing on of Kohl’s criticisms of the process.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 8, 2008 3:30 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i think

it was in the reporting in the original articles about re-testing, i think. remember, they said they were pulling blood samples from outside the tour, also? certo, they did not have 40 possible positives off the urine test – that makes no sense to me. i understood the re-testing as both: they were testing suspicious urine tests with the new blood test, and they were targetting riders with anamolous blood levels to see if CERA was involved.

could have misunderstood though. you’re the french speaker and stuff ;-)

by gavia on Oct 7, 2008 8:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, but ...

Here’s the quote from CN:

The French Anti-Doping Agency (AFLD) said it will be re-testing several blood samples taken during the Tour de France this July. According to the Associated Press, the lab found results of urine sample tests from several riders “inconclusive” based on initial testing in Lausanne. “I have decided that we will retest – with blood testing – all those who showed up as suspicious during the urine samples,” said Pierre Bordry of the AFLD to the AP. “When we did the urine samples of those athletes, we had a serious suspicion that there was CERA [third generation of the blood boosting, performance enhancing drug EPO – ed.]. "The laboratory could not say definitively. The same analysis will be done, but in the blood samples,” he said." Samples will be returned to France, where the tests will be conducted at the Chatenay-Malabry lab. The AFLD declined to name the cyclists who had produced the suspicious samples. bq.

Which sure seems to me to imply that they have targeted specific samples that the Swiss lab (Lausanne) found inconclusive and the French lab is re-testing those specific samples – not the whole set (making it all the more important to have some double-blind negative controls!).

By the way, I’m not relying on the Floyd Landis procedure alone for my judgment of sloppiness – there’s also the report from the Netherlands, plus the recurrent leaking to the press (Damien Ressiot’s private line to the AFLD) before a B sample has been tested and the frequent violation of WADA’s own rules (such as the provision that re-testing should not be done by the same technician).

I agree that dopers are being caught and that they shouldn’t get off on procedural grounds, I just think the amount of obvious lab sloppiness is going to put cleaning up the sport at risk. The standard drug industry drug testing procedures in the workplace (or even those of the U.S. military) are much more tightly controlled than anything coming out of the French labs. Arrrgh! I want a clean sport, and I fear that one instance of a clearly demonstrated “dirty test” will set us back 10 years. We can’t afford that.

by GreylockGrinder on Oct 7, 2008 8:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes, this is part of the story

That the suspicious urine samples would be re-tested with blood tests. But there were actually in Bordry’s initial statements more riders subject to scrutiny because of anamolous blood values. I dunno, the AP and CN may not have picked up the full story – it wouldn’t be the first time.

by gavia on Oct 7, 2008 11:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it says "samples" not "those samples."

Could mean all, some, or “only the suspicious ones.” I have no problem with the assumption that some of the blood tests should be positive. (Heck, what better positive control could you ask for than Ricco???) Because of references to “a single positive from either lab” not being counted as positive, that means both labs must have access to the same set of samples; not that lab #2 only gets access to the ones that lab #1 finds positive. Finally, because the blood tests are based on either urine or odd stats (the info that is or will be used for passport purposes). I don’t think anyone assumes that CERA is the only dope out there. So I’d say the wide net creates a supposition that some of the samples should not be positive for CERA, even if they are suspicious overall.

by JFS_PGH on Oct 8, 2008 5:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not sure what you mean here:

I’d say the wide net creates a supposition that some of the samples should not be positive for CERA, even if they are suspicious overall.

Bordry has stated quite clearly that it is only CERA that is being looked for.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 8, 2008 5:12 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that's my point.

Say 20 people were flagged for blood testing because they have “odd values”—not related to any hint of CERA in the urine tests. Say 11 more were added to the blood testing pool based on the urine CERA test. And toss in some duplicates to make 40 samples. (This is total guesstimate.)

Now, unless you think that CERA is the only dope out there, why would you expect to return 40 positives for CERA, even if you were a cynic and thought that all of the suspected riders were doping SOMEHOW? You wouldn’t. You would expect some to have CERA in their blood, and some to have a different mystery substance in their blood, but not CERA.

So the tester would expect some CERA positives, and some CERA negatives. Does this mean some dopers may go undetected, because they found yet another doping product? Mais oui. But it makes this particular testing regimen (for CERA) more fair to non-dopers (and to non-CERA dopers) than it would otherwise be.

by JFS_PGH on Oct 8, 2008 5:19 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The test results on Ricco's samples are . . . .

. . . . what? 4 out of 10?

And how many tests did they need to do in order to get 4 that apeared the way they wanted?
You guys are all aware that the WADA has the right to repeat their tests on samples as many times as they want until they get the results they choose to accept?

Now, we all know Ricco admitted to the use of CERA, but in 3 months the WADA has only improved their effectiveness of detection from 1% to 40% using a methodology which I would question if it is even within the scope of the the scientific method.

Honestly, I don’t trust a damn thing they say regarding their data until they can provide an AQL that is within the standards utilized to make Jello which is between 92.74% to 99.999996%.

by Ryan_Liles on Oct 9, 2008 6:14 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That doesn't mean 6 negative samples

It’s just that they don’t reckon the other 6 are positive enough to stand up in court. All the evidence I have seen suggests that they are being very conservative in what they claim (wasn’t Damsgaard complaining a few weeks back of having seen some very dodgy results that WADA wouldn’t count as positive) but then target those riders who don’t fail but whose samples don’t seem to be what you would expect from a clean rider and hit them with more tests.

by Monty. on Oct 9, 2008 6:51 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, the other 6 should stand up in court . . . .

. . . . they need to show the test has a flaw, and they need to identify this flaw so they can improve the test.
If it is not a clear positive, it actually needs to be recorded.
If the same sample is tested more then once, all tests of that sample need to be documented and reported.
At this time, the rules that govern the procedures of an accredited lab used by the WADA do not do this.
They merely present the tests that reflect their previously conceived ‘hunch’.

Look, this is basic testing methodology we are talking about here and if the WADA is using a test that statistically cannot repeat the same result and then is not willing to completely present its’ findings then they are just shooting in the dark hoping to hit something.

by Ryan_Liles on Oct 11, 2008 7:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have no scientific experience

but surely it must be better to have a test that sometimes fails to detect a drug for whatever reason( quality of sample, time elapsed or whatever) than no test at all or a test that produduces false positives?

Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets

by Jens on Oct 9, 2008 7:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No false negatives? Let's hope that's true.

But do note the sneering that goes on whenever a cyclist tries to claim that a test might have returned a false positive. Me, I once had the Red Cross tell me they were chucking the blood I just donated because I’d tested positive for hepatitis.

Loooong sleepless nights before the campus health center told me that no, I didn’t have it. But because I didn’t get that in writing, I’ve never been able to donate blood again. To the Red Cross, I’m forever the one who refuses to admit she’s got hepatitis.

So yeah, I do wonder sometimes whether every single positive the doping labs come up with is justified.

by majope on Oct 9, 2008 7:19 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well if Schumacher insists that he's innocent

we may see a legal evaluation of the CERA-test.

Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets

by Jens on Oct 9, 2008 7:31 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the cut-offs are intentionally skewed the other way for things like blood donation

They are rightfully far more worried about false negatives than false positives. Whether or not it is possible to avoid false positives AND false negatives depends on whether there’s overlap between negative and positive values. (For example, if 99.9% of negatives run from 5 to 12 in some arbitrary scale of reactiveness, with most clustered around 6 to 8…and 99.9% of positives run from 18 to 25 on that scale, then setting a cut off is no problem. But if the 99.9% cut-offs overlap…and the 99% cut offs still overlap…and the 95% cut offs overlap… you have a decision to make. If you want a safe blood supply, everything in the gray zone is “dirty.” If you need to prosecute a case successfully, everything in the gray zone is “clean.”

It isn’t that your health center necessarily used a better, more sensitive test than the blood bank, or got a different physical result. They had different guidelines for interpreting the test. And that, presumably, is part of the reason why the blood bank is not at all interested in revising its position on the state of your blood, unless you provide considerable supporting data.

by JFS_PGH on Oct 9, 2008 8:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it's not that the labs are super sloppy...

they’re just not so super tidy!

Racing for Victory and Free Beer!

by DemonCats on Oct 7, 2008 8:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sort of like my house

oh wait, that is super sloppy .

by Katiek on Oct 7, 2008 9:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

so is it 7 riders or 40 riders?

or 7 out of the forty?

Is the team list that was floating around a week ago still relevant?

by humbug1 on Oct 7, 2008 11:05 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

late last week...

The reports from France, late last week, said that there were 10 likely positives total, with three announced between Friday and Monday, and the remaining 7 announced late this week. I believe the team list represented the pool of riders subject to re-testing on the grounds of anamolous blood values – but the team list came from Gazzetta dello Sport, and I’ve never been sure where they got it. The five riders from CSC, 2 from AG2R, blah blah was a Gazzetta story, I don’t recall seeing any French original for that. Maybe Celestin or Lyne can help me out – did either of you see a source ever for that story? As of now, I think that team list gives us too many riders – that is, that was the re-test, not the positive, list. That’s my read based on reading the available news, not confirmed.

The 40, that came from Bordry’s original statement published in l’equipe, and it was actually 30 – un trentaine – that he said. That was the number of riders who could be involved – the linky for that is here somewhere, I can pull it up tomorrow, if you want – he did not say they were positive, only that that many riders were under further scrutiny.

In the course of the various re-postings and re-translations, this story has gotten really confusing. In the main, because machine and sloppy human translations tend to drop conditionals and maybes, and turn them into declaratives. The Gazzetta story was a good example of that – they wrote that the testing could result in many positives; it got picked up elsewhere as will result, or indeed, have already found many positives. Confusing shit, anyway.

We’ll see soon enough.

by gavia on Oct 7, 2008 11:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Where are the other 41?

Prudhomme has said: "we are a long way from the list announced by some."

The UCI says they “extremely disappointed to learn of the allegations made recently by several media organisations regarding a number of riders, whose names were mentioned, completely unfairly, in this context.”

I think it’s clear that the mass hysteria of last week and all the speculation that ensued is now being downplayed.

Damn those speculators. Thank god no one of PdC speculated. Oh no. We just sat patiently by our puters waiting for the news to break.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 8, 2008 3:34 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

there's a difference between wondering out loud on a blog...

and jumping to conclusions under a formal or semi-formal byline. Sure, some of the PC posters here are better than most pros. Some of them are (probably) pros in real life. But here? They’re individuals.

by JFS_PGH on Oct 8, 2008 5:13 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I really need that irony font face soon.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 8, 2008 5:48 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well.... I did read it as irony...

and wondered what, exactly, was being skewered.

by JFS_PGH on Oct 8, 2008 11:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

they're shocked, I tell ya! shocked!

lol, the UCI, just trying to catch up with the story.

The 30 number is still relevant in the context of the blood doping suspicions – and that was in fact what Bordry said at the outset. That around 30 riders had suspicious blood values – not that they were positive.

by gavia on Oct 8, 2008 11:35 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Only saw a gazzeta...

….story about that.
As for the rest of the numerous announcements, it’s getting really complicated. Me confused plenty.
But we know, you’ll sort it out.

by Celestn on Oct 9, 2008 9:00 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Confused? Si.

My inadequate little brain is slowly frazzling.

by Albertina on Oct 9, 2008 9:05 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

cool, thanks

I was pretty sure that was a Gazzetta thing. Sometimes their unsourced stories are dead-on, other times, not so much.

by gavia on Oct 9, 2008 11:30 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

cool thats all I needed to keep it straight...

I assume the three are SS, peeps and Ricco.

So….crap….yeah….seven more? huh. Shit.

by humbug1 on Oct 8, 2008 12:01 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that was bordry's prediction, yeah

today’s reports say one more. not sure if that means that’s all, or if there will be more.

then, yes, there’s the blood doping thing and the Olympic re-testing.

by gavia on Oct 8, 2008 11:32 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We've got a winner.

 To big to typ an article myself so..

Hold your chair..

Sastre, Kohl, Kirchen, O’Grady en Cancellara. Ouch!

Source
I try to find the Gazzeto dello sport

Some say the best things in life, are one the inside.

by Frinking on Oct 8, 2008 5:39 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think all that’s being said by the original source for that piece is that these riders might be among those being tested. Not that they are guilty.

Come on frinking, we’ve been trough this for more than a week now, and ought be able to differentiate between facts and wild speculation by now.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 8, 2008 5:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What's Happening

Bordry: “The tests are still underway, they are not all done yet. We are testing samples from July 3, 4 and 15. They are all tested by the Chatenay-Malabry lab, which is the official AFLD lab, but also in Lausanne, as a guarantee.”

Prudhomme: “I imagine there could be one or two more cases.”

Via Reuters

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 8, 2008 6:21 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can't see the specualtion thing in this. Not anu question mark

So why isit speculation an not the truth?

Some say the best things in life, are one the inside.

by Frinking on Oct 8, 2008 6:40 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Stand by your refresh button

The print version of Gazzetta says that another positive is expected today. According to tuttobici it is a top level rider but not one of the grandissimi.

Or even better, go and do something more constructive and look back later.

by Monty. on Oct 8, 2008 6:22 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Something more constructive?

Yeah, but hitting referesh is so much more interesting than working!

by Albertina on Oct 8, 2008 8:46 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

According to

Eurosport, Prudhomme imagines there could be “one or two more postives”

by Katiek on Oct 8, 2008 10:49 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bordry says next up: retests for blood transfusions
The head of the French anti-doping agency AFLD, Pierre Bordry, told German state network ZDF on Wednesday that a new method to detect blood transfusions is currently being developed.

He said that samples from around 30 riders, who had abnormal blood levels at the start of the July race, will be retested.

‘We have already received strong hints of blood doping cases. We won’t be able to say until a later date whom that involves,’ Bordry told ZDF.

‘Soon we will be able to detect blood transfusions and we will then conduct retests.’

link
another article in German

by majope on Oct 8, 2008 8:33 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"Sometimes it's hard to be a doper, giving all your blood ................"

Cheaters beware, the vampires are closing in. If this is true it would be great news. Not riders testing positive but the added deterrent of yet another method being detectable.

Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets

by Jens on Oct 8, 2008 8:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bad news for my already shattered nerves

But great new for the sport, gotta love the French for being so damned French.

by OctaBech on Oct 8, 2008 10:25 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

with apologies to Peter Gabriel and Stephen Biko...

but this tune keeps playing in my head….

July 17 ‘08
Super Besse was far behind
It was business as usual
In police room 609
Oh Ricco, Ricco, because Ricco
Oh Ricco, Ricco, because Ricco

Now Saunier-Duval is American Beef
And Schumacher’s in the tank
When he bonked in the Olympics
We knew those Tour wins stank
Oh Ricco, Ricco, because Ricco
Oh Ricco, Ricco, because Ricco

You can blow out a candle
But you can’t blow out a fire
Once the flames begin to catch
The wind will blow it higher
Oh Ricco, Ricco, because Ricco

And the eyes of the world are
watching now
watching now

by nickel17 on Oct 8, 2008 11:25 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Never do that again!

My ears start bleeding when I read this. :(

by OctaBech on Oct 8, 2008 12:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Who got a letter??

…so according to this quote from Bordry those who are being tested would have been the recipients of a letter during the Tour about concerns over their blood values…

******

"It’s about 30 riders who had abnormal blood values, and they all got a letter from me during the Tour. Det er disse ryttere, der nu testes", fortæller Bordry til sporten.dk. It is these riders who tested now, "says Bordry to sporten.dk.

******

According to Brian Nygaard at CSC SaxoBank these letters were known about back during the tour and they asked all their riders whether they’d had one or not and they all said no. Soooo either Nygaard is lying (which would be very dumb), the riders lied at the time (also dumb but possible), the letters got lost in the post so they weren’t lying but possibly were sent one OR the riders from CSC are in the clear

I’m now more confused than before (if that is possible) – it would be helpful to know at the end of this process who has been cleared by these tests as well as the names of people who are being caught..

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=da&u=http://www.feltet.dk/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search3Fq3Dfeltet2Bdk26hl3Den26sa%3DG

by Gemma on Oct 8, 2008 12:49 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol, yes, it's all very confusing

The existence of the letters was reported during the Tour – but we’ve never known exactly who got them.

In relation to CSC, the only thing that is clear is that their riders were subject to intensive testing during the race. Does that mean they were among the “Abnormals?” The team statements have denied the possibility. But suspicions have continued all the same. There remain 30 riders with abnormal parameters who may be subject to further scrutiny. Their identities have not been confirmed – just the speculation you’ve seen everywhere in the press.

by gavia on Oct 8, 2008 12:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This person who has a "well informed source" says this:

“Anyway they are now down to another 2-4 tests to be done the next two days. I won’t contribute to the rumour mill by naming the names, but let’s just say that the two names I got did well in the mountains and one of these two did not make it to Paris.”

Hmmmm, any guesses??

by Albertina on Oct 8, 2008 2:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

AFLD Autologous Blood Test

Sadly, this one is going to run and run and run. Bordry has said 30 suspicious riders. Sadly, the test is at best months away:

We are looking for a new test. It is in the process of being put in place. It does not exist with precision. We will get there. It is within our capabilities. The researchers need to complete (their work). Either way, they are highly motivated. But it (a new test) is not very close.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 11:37 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But now WADA are saying the test is already at the validations stage:

“We do not indicate when a test is ready, so as not to warn athletes. We are looking for specific methods to reveal autologous blood transfusions, but as of today these methods are not implemented – they’re still at the validation stage. But [a test] is coming.”

And could WADA be about to outflank the UCI with its own athlete’s passport system?

“Until now the analysis of blood or urine samples has been like looking at a single picture. But the passport is more like a movie, where you can follow the movement of the parameters. The athlete therefore becomes his own point of reference. With the passport, if there are abnormal variations then we can target the athlete for testing. But we are also discussing with our legal teams how we might penalise the athlete based not on a positive test but on such abnormalities, which would indicate doping.”

Gruaniad

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 7:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the rider who didn't do well but had supicious values before tour?

say what you will about speculation, but there were 2 contenders that started way too fast, mixing it up in sprints and then fell off the face of the race. hmmm

by humbug1 on Oct 8, 2008 3:13 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Did well in the mountains but didn't make it to Paris = Juanjo Cobo

I can’t think of anyone else who hasn’t been caught who would even remotely qualify for that distinction.

As for the guy that did well in the mountains…for all I know, Marco Velo put it all on the line so he could finish a bizarrely high 40th on GC this year.

by Mr 60 Percent on Oct 8, 2008 3:59 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cobo is a good guess for the DNF

2nd place finish on Hautacam, withdrawn with the rest of Saunier Duval.

As for who else might remotely qualify, I cross-referenced riders who didn’t make Paris with the lists of top-20 finishers on the five mountain stages, and came up with 2 other possibilities: Moisés Dueñas (finished 19th on Stage 9 and 11th on Stage 10) and Damiano Cunego, (9th on Stage 9, 18th on Stage 10, 14th on Stage 16, 18th on Stage 17).

Dueñas was ejected for doping, so he’s a strong possibility—another reconfirmation like Ricco, not a whole new case. Some reports at the time said he was caught for good ol’ fashioned EPO, but Bordry later confirmed it was CERA. So if his blood is being tested, it logically should be positive for CERA.

As for Damiano “I’m Doping Free” Cunego, I would say he was the longshot here, but who knows anymore?

by majope on Oct 8, 2008 4:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd hate

to think Damiano doped to get the TDF that he had this year.

by Katiek on Oct 8, 2008 4:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cunego’s the most obvious choice. He had such a shite Tour, you’d have to think he was off his meds.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 8, 2008 6:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol

okay, i’m slowly but surely deciphering fmk dry sarcasm. well-worth it :-)

so funny.

Bordry commented in the German teevee interview that one rider had abnormal parameters – no specifics on exactly in what way – at the start, but his levels fell over the course of the race, as did his performance. On that one, I’ll take Valverde, though Cunego would fit also.

by gavia on Oct 8, 2008 7:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agree with Valverde. Sooo obvious, So there’s a finisher and a non finisher. Not that we’re speculating. Oh no, that’d be bad. We’re just … pondering the odds.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 8, 2008 7:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

oh, actually i meant

That Valverde was a candidate for the rider who showed up with abnormalities, but got scared clean and dropped to normal levels in subsequent tests, and whose performance showed the effects of the drop.

The other positive – went well in the mountains – heh, I think not Valverde. If he had ridden the Tour on CERA, he would have won by several time zones. He’s that talented.

by gavia on Oct 8, 2008 7:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and...

not that i’m speculating, because that would be bad and irresponsible and stuff, but i’m still feeling less than confident in Kohl.

by gavia on Oct 8, 2008 7:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

after kohl’s comment yesterday, i know what side of the fence i think he’s sitting

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 8, 2008 7:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

uh-huh

that definitely didn’t help

by gavia on Oct 8, 2008 7:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and then there's this

from a buddy of mine with a mind like a steel trap:

You might be able to throw Devolder into that mix. He had a good race through the Col d’Aspin stage. Then lost time several minutes on the Tourmalet/Hautacam stage. Did okay in the flattish stages before the Alps and then dropped out on the next mountain stage. On the first mountain when the pack was supposedly not going very hard.
 
He would also fit the mold of an ex-Postal rider getting busted. That’s kind of a tradition.

by phawley on Oct 9, 2008 8:39 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, true that, about his performance.

There are probably several who would fit the mould. They might not necessarily be particularly big names of course. My grasp of these various sources is getting rather addled but did someone not suggest that they were good riders but not stars, these other two? Of course, that in itself is probably pure speculation….

by Albertina on Oct 9, 2008 8:50 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

si...

Yesterday’s reports said good riders, but not stars.

Heh, Devolder. Forgot all about that guy.

by gavia on Oct 9, 2008 11:31 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol, mixing my replies

I’m not sure really what they mean about the next positive being a high level rider, but not a star. Like, wtf? Can I get a ruling on that?

Dev does fit the didn’t make it to Paris requirement, though.

by gavia on Oct 9, 2008 12:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Now what is the definition of a 'star' we ask?

They should have given us their categorisation criteria I feel. ;-)

by Albertina on Oct 9, 2008 12:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Quite.

I suppose they’ll say something like ‘he isn’t worth enough VDS points so he’s officially NOT a star’. I feel sure they use our criteria to judge these things.

by Albertina on Oct 9, 2008 1:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've been worried about that.

I really enjoyed Flanders. Heck, I enjoyed him throughout the spring. But he was, indeed, crazy, amazing good. Except when he was incredibly, terribly bad. I hate having that be suspect. Well, not the bad ride with the TT chamberpot, that was wonderfully terrible, regardless. But I would really, really miss him if he were gone next spring.

by JFS_PGH on Oct 9, 2008 8:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He wasn't much better than last year

his riding style and teamtactics just payed off better.

Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets

by Jens on Oct 10, 2008 1:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A non-negative by Kohl

Would be a giant slice of suck, IMHO.
sigh

by marian on Oct 9, 2008 1:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My money's on Valv.Piti

…and has been a looooong time coming!

by phawley on Oct 8, 2008 9:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

okay, okay...

…my buddy just pointed out that my valv.piti prediction is based more on my wishful thinking than the odds. ;)

by phawley on Oct 8, 2008 11:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don't you jinx Valv. :(

Had it not been for him and Sastre then this year’s Vuelta wouldn’t have been much fun.

by OctaBech on Oct 9, 2008 2:01 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Please not Valv.

I know he’s dodgy territory but I can’t help liking him!

by Albertina on Oct 9, 2008 6:24 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but don't forget that av might have a had a bad day (or 2) in the pyrenees, but did quite well in the alps

"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind

by umwolverine on Oct 9, 2008 1:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no positive

No – not unless the first sample is eventually tested for blood doping and comes up positive. As of now, though, Bordry’s comment was more to the point that someone got scared straight and it noticeably effected his performance. As his levels re-approached normal, his performance became increasingly ordinary.

by gavia on Oct 9, 2008 11:33 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"a bit dodgy"

valv.piti has been a bit dodgy looking ever since his barely obfuscated name turned up on the Fuentes blood inventory list!

Can some cycling mag please hire a freaking detective to find out the names of the pets of the ProTour? sheesh. Maybe CycleSport…they seem to have a chip on their shoulder with the whole anti-doping movement.

by phawley on Oct 9, 2008 3:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"a bit dodgy"...hm, maybe that was good old English understatement on my part ;-)

But I confess I do like him, always have done. Could all end in tears…

I personally can never understand why a cyclist would be stupid enough to name their blood after their dog. I mean, isn’t it a bit see through? Perhaps it would be a little safer to go for a dog they had at the age of 3, but their current dog? The minute they’re overheard shouting “Birillo!” or “Piti!” across the park, the game is up! Mind you, if they’re stupid enough to fill bags with blood in the first place I guess anything’s possible….

by Albertina on Oct 9, 2008 5:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cobo

Agreed – good in the mountains, didn’t make it to Paris. Not a bad pick.

The other? Who knows really.

by gavia on Oct 8, 2008 6:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not Cobo. With not making it to Paris

You don’t mean anybody from SDV. Or I suppose it isn’t insunuating that. Or just hope.. Probably is Sio a more likely guess. Sorry. May not say that

Some say the best things in life, are one the inside.

by Frinking on Oct 9, 2008 10:17 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks Gavia!

there hasn’t been much news (as opposed to speculation) today, but as always you’re summary of the situation in the update is great.

by amarone on Oct 8, 2008 4:18 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Schumacher

House searched and fraud charge being considered. Holczer also subject of investigation.

I do hope there’s gaol time for a fraud charge. It’s about time a cyclist went to gaol.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 10:01 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

very determined, the German authorities

I doubt very much they found anything at this point.

Interesting to see, actually, if the French press sporting fraud charges on these riders.

by gavia on Oct 9, 2008 11:35 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nah, Holczer’s clean. Stupid but clean.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 5:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Piepoli

hearing pushed back to Oct. 22. CP

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 10:07 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe he needs more time

to look for the perfect outfit. It’s hard to live up to the standard set by Ricco

by Katiek on Oct 9, 2008 10:10 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

indeed

very important the fashion decision

by gavia on Oct 9, 2008 11:34 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nicole Cooke, Geraint Thomas and Tom James could have their Beijing samples re-tested

I love the way local news outlets put their own spin on international stories.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 10:09 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

“Titanic sinks. No Welsh people on board.”

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 10:47 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pendleton
“Out of competition testing and this sort of thing has got to be done if sport is going to get clean.”

Uuuummm … maybe someone needs to explain to Pendleton what OOC testing really is. Maybe she just hasn’t experienced it yet.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 11:50 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not sure what the testing drill is on the track

but I recall Marianne Vos saying something about woman riders not getting tested nearly enough on the road

by Albertina on Oct 9, 2008 12:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Vos

Yes, she said when she was world road champion – and actually double world champion that year – they never showed up to test her out of competition. If they aren’t testing her, well, they’re pretty much testing no one. It’s possible that during the Olympic year things were more strict, as national federations tried to ensure against embarassment. But no way of knowing. The testing in women’s racing is pretty disgraceful, really. They deserve better.

by gavia on Oct 9, 2008 12:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Whoever’s responsible would probably claim that the women are not in the same league as the Tour and not subject to the same temptations. Is funny to see how quickly some cyclists can run from the Tour. Chris Hoy was on the Beeb yesterday putting as much distance as he could between Tour riders and him. Catharine Pendrel (4th in Women’s MTB at Beijing) was quoted doing something similar in one of the wire reports (“I do think that mountain biking currently is cleaner than on the road. There hasn’t been the same amount of people testing positive or quite the same history.”).

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 12:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

which is patronizing crap

LOL, the argument I mean, not you :-)

There is plenty of doping in women’s sports, and cycling is no exception. But eh, testing is expensive, and the pressure from the press and sponsors isn’t there in the same way as it is on the men’s side.

by gavia on Oct 9, 2008 12:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the argument I mean, not you

I’ve been called worse. I told my mother never to speak to me again.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 1:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Beijing Retests Roundup

 post unto itself, so I’ll just drop them here. Some are worth considering and may have been missed in the initial wave of reporting:

IOC statement on retests:

"The IOC intends to further analyse the samples collected this summer during the Olympic Games in Beijing. Substances that will be analysed across all sports include EPO CERA. All samples are currently being repatriated to the WADA-accredited laboratory in Lausanne where Olympic samples are usually stored after the Games. The details of the procedure, such as the number of samples to be further analysed and the timeline, are currently being discussed with WADA."

"As part of its zero-tolerance policy against doping, the IOC is storing samples collected during the Olympic Games for eight years. This allows the IOC to analyse samples retroactively should fully validated tests to detect new substances/methods become available."
"’Our message is very clear. The IOC will not miss any opportunity to further analyse samples retroactively. We hope that this will work as a strong deterrent and make athletes think twice before cheating,’ said IOC President Jacques Rogge."
"Some 4,770 doping tests were carried out in Beijing in the framework of the largest ever testing programme for an Olympic Games. The tests included 3,801 urine and 969 blood tests. Urine tests included 817 EPO tests, and blood tests covered 471 human Growth Hormone (hGH) tests. All the tests covered the 29-day period from 27 July until 24 August 2008. Athletes qualified for the Beijing 2008 Olympic Games were tested by the World Anti-Doping Agency and BOCOG under the authority of the IOC. As a general rule, all top five finishers, plus a further two, were tested."

According to IOC spokesperson Emmanuelle Moreau, the IOC did not test for CERA during the Olympics. The new test had not been sufficiently validated. Of the retesting procedure, Moreau’s reported to have said:

"We will initially retest blood samples based on intelligence we have."

WRT cycling’s future in the Olympic movement, Moreau said:

"The IOC will continue to support the UCI – and any other international federation – as long as it is deploying meaningful and credible means and efforts to fight against doping."

Patrick Schamasch (IOC medical director) said:

“We have indication of other substances." He said that the testing "will be based on intelligence, on information we receive and many other parameters. Once we decide how many tests, and who to test, then it will not take long. We’re not pushed by anyone. We will do it when we are ready.”

Arne Ljungqvist (IOC medical commission chairman) added more information:

“You don’t do it just by random. You have to base it on some suspicion. A number of blood samples were taken in Beijing. We will look into where we may have some suspicious parameters. Endurance events are of particular interest. Our hope is to have this done during the coming few months. Since we store the samples and have them at our disposal, we will not hesitate in doing further analysis. This is a message to people who are tempted to cheat that there may be something coming up soon or later.”

Some comments from various talking heads:

Christiane Ayotte (Director, Institut National de la Recherché Scientifique, Canada):

"There will most definitely be some athletes who thought they could escape being caught because they thought the test would not be ready. We knew it came to the market just before springtime last year and if there were positives in the Tour de France, then we think there will be positives from Beijing. […] Why the technique was not put into place in Beijing, I have no answer to give you. But we’re not missing anything. The opportunity to have those samples retested one or two months later is great. […] Some people were cynical at the end of the Olympics, saying out of 5,000 tests there were only nine positives, how could that be? But the testing is not over. The athletes who doped should not sit back and say: ‘Oh, I was never caught. I’m O.K.’ No, they should still be worried."

Frédéric Donzé (WADA spokesman)

"WADA is confident that the process will withstand any potential legal and scientific challenge."

John Fahey (WADA president):

“There’s a distinct possibility that the retesting will bring out cases that weren’t otherwise thought possible to detect. WADA believes that this is a very strong deterrent against any athlete who may be tempted to cheat. […] We suggest that athletes who may be tempted to cheat keep this reality in mind, and we believe that retrospective testing will serve as a strong deterrent.”

Michael Ashenden (Science and Industry Against Blood Doping):

“It wouldn’t surprise me at all if we had more athletes caught. CERA is more easily detectable in blood than in urine. If there are some athletes that showed indications of it in urine, anticipate there will be even more of it in blood.”

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 11:21 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Christiane Ayotte

Some may remember Ayotte from 2005, when she was one of the voices rolled-out in criticism of L’Équipe’s LA exposé. At that stage she questioned how long EPO was stable in frozen samples:

"I have been instructing everyone at all of the organizations not to expect to reproduce an EPO adverse finding if more that two or three months has elapsed since the sample was originally taken."

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 11:26 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmm, interesting that.

I may have a little look on Medline and see if I can turn up anything about this. I think it will pass as work for the purposes of my boss :-)

by Albertina on Oct 9, 2008 12:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Can't find anything on time delays meaning more negatives but the American Journal of Hematology from March

does have this to say about bad care of samples potentially contributing to false positives:

“At present, the test adopted by the World Anti Doping Agency is based on a combination of isoelectric focusing and double immunoblotting, and distinguishes between endogenous and rhEpo. However, the adopted monoclonal anti-Epo antibodies are not monospecific. Therefore, the test can occasionally lead to the false-positive detection of rhEpo (epoetin-) in post-exercise, protein-rich urine, or in case of contamination of the sample with microorganisms. An improved preanalytical care may counteract a lot of these problems.”

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/116327230/abstract

So much more interesting than my proper work :-)

by Albertina on Oct 9, 2008 1:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ayotte seemed to dismiss the false positive hypothesis:

If there’s residual EPO after five years, it was properly identified.

Jacques de Ceaurriz said similar:

"One of two things happens. Either EPO, which is a protein, degrades as time passes and becomes undetectable. In that case we have a negative test result or, as in this case, the EPO persists as it is. We have therefore no doubt about the validity of our results."

Christ, we’re turning into TBV.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 1:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

TBV? I'm being thick...

I’ll have to dig out the journal and see how they came to this conclusion. Another excuse for not doing my real work :-)

by Albertina on Oct 9, 2008 5:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Trust But Verify, the perpetual Landis retrial blog..

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 5:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

EPO has a very short half life in the blood.

Because it passes easily into the kidneys and is excreted in large, detectable quantities in urine. That’s why the PEG is added to give it a much longer half life. EPO+PEG=CERA. Thus CERA is NOT excreted well in urine until the molecule starts to degrade, and the PEG gets lost. Instead, it stays lovely and stable in the blood, where it is effective for weeks, and easy to detect for weeks (months?) even in unfrozen samples. And presumably far, far longer in frozen samples.

by JFS_PGH on Oct 9, 2008 8:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Today's date is 10-9-8...

Perfect countdown timing for the other shoe to drop.

"The world is a mess and I just need to rule it." Dr. Horrible

by bethie on Oct 9, 2008 1:04 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was just going to comment.

It’s tomorrow now. Where’s my next positive. Sheesh, these people really need to get a move on.

by gavia on Oct 9, 2008 1:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No kidding

I can’t spend more than 5 or 6 hours a day hitting refresh, after all.

by Katiek on Oct 9, 2008 1:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My finger is getting tired...

This is going on far, far too long.

by gavia on Oct 9, 2008 1:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ditto

Click, click, click, click……zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

by Albertina on Oct 9, 2008 1:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

gav, how are you going to cope waiting months for the ioc tests to come through and months for the afld to magic up a test for blood doping? you’ll be a bag of nerves by christmas.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 1:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Today's date is 10-9-8...

It’s 9-10-8. Stop foisting your weird date formatting on us.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 1:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm married to a Brit

You may taunt me to your heart’s content, but I have won this argument already. :-)

"The world is a mess and I just need to rule it." Dr. Horrible

by bethie on Oct 9, 2008 2:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually it's 081009......................

Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets

by Jens on Oct 9, 2008 2:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

geek

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 3:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yep

"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind

by umwolverine on Oct 9, 2008 3:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Giro Says No ...

… to retests. The dirty little Italian wusses. Or is Angelo Zomegnan just being a cheapskate and letting the ALFD do all the heavy lifting and even heavier spending?

“The Giro d’Italia has already made the necessary checks. The labs and the UCI have told us these tests were done, and nothing was found that could be taken as suspect. It’s useless to ask for more [tests]. These tests, I’ve been told, began during the Giro. To me, it seems excessive to ask for more. Each organizer takes care of its own event.”

ESPN

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 2:49 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh, I'm stunned. I never expected that attitude.

Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets

by Jens on Oct 9, 2008 2:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fitting image

One would think that Sella and Ricco would have inspired them.

by OctaBech on Oct 9, 2008 3:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah, but they’re already caught.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 3:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah and it probably wouldn’t have spawned any positive tests :( as well dressed Ricco already explained, he only used CERA to regenerate because of the the short notice he had before the Tour.

by OctaBech on Oct 9, 2008 3:17 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

regenerate

Ricco’s a Timelord? Respect!

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 6:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He used to just reverse the polarity of the neuron flow or something like that. God knows what Rusty Davies puts it down to these days.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 6:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ouch

And I even asked an Irish person(remind me never to do that again) over messenger if ‘regenerate’ could be used, parts of the answer must have been lost in the mail. blush

by OctaBech on Oct 10, 2008 2:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Schumacher: The Tests Are Flawed

Michael Lehner:

“Stefan Schumacher’s blood levels at the entry check for the Tour de France on July 3 and at the check on the rest day July 15 were not only each without complaint, but rather in an absolutely inconspicuous area. The A samples analysed immediately after both doping checks were negative, without a doping finding. Under which circumstances and which blood tests have allegedly tested positive for CERA three months later in a laboratory in Chatenay-Malabry is, according to the information available up until now, completely unclear.”

What an original defence plea.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 6:18 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

CN adds that Lehner is advising his client to plead the fifth:

Lehner added that he would not again advise a client to “tell all,” as he previously did with Jörg Jaksche and Patrik Sinkewitz, neither of whom has found a new team, “Nobody says officially: ‘We don’t hire traitors.’ But in the end that’s the way it is.”

Meanwhile, Schumacher’s manager saying his letter from the ALFD during the Tour must have got lost in the post:

Also, a first draft excuse due from Schumacher “today or tomorrow.” Come on, bets – whiskey? Twin? Dehydration? A big boy did it and ran away?

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 7:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The twin excuse is so 2004

I’m going with “identical cousins”

by Katiek on Oct 9, 2008 8:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

innovative. sweet.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 11:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Are you my mummy?

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 11:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, those Frenchies have never gotten over being whupped in the Franco Prussian war.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Oct 9, 2008 11:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I"m surprised we still haven’t heard anything, I thought we would by now. The anticipation has led me to start speculating who the riders are.

This is what I originally heard:

Some rumors from the newspaper Gazet van Antwerpen concerning 14 riders who is under “investigation” for drug use in this years TDF. The distribution looks like this: two from Ag2r-La Mondiale, three from Saunier Duval-Scott, two from Columbia, [b]five from CSC-Saxo Bank[/b] and two from Gerolsteiner.

It has since been rumored that only 10 of these riders are still being investigated, in terms of testing samples.
ous.

In regards of the results from Sella in the Giro, we had a general consensus at this forum, that his performance looked suspicious. It was not the fact that he almost won 3 stages and the mountain jersey, but more because of the way he did it. In spite of being in a long hard breakaway in the first stage he won, he didn’t show any sign of tiredness for the next 2 difficult stages where he also turned out to be the strongest one. As we learned 2 months later, UCI tested Sella positive for CERA, and thereby confirmed our suspicion. The essence is, that it was not Sellas results starting our suspicion, but a careful evaluation if his string of results -and how they were achieved, could really be possible without doping.

Of course we are all entitled to have our own opinion about what looks suspicious and what is looking normal. As stated earlier, I just think its very seldom that we can use the results by them self, to decide whether or not a performance of teams/riders are suspicious. All the doping/antidoping related circumstances and facts surrounding a team/rider, are much more important subjects to look out for. But since we are now having this interesting discussion, when to deem time trial results as suspicious, I would like to highlight all the important factors to take into account.

to take into account when judging results from a Tour de France ITT:[/b][/u]

[i]* Only 40 riders in a TDF time trial is going with full speed (corresponding to those believing they have a chance to get a top10 result plus those riders believing they have a chance of top20 in the overall). All the other riders are “relaxing”, to save power for the next stage.

  • Teams with a potential ITT-winner/GC-favourite will typical ask 3 of the other riders at the team to go full speed, in order to gain important experience from the course, that can be reported back to the later starting favourite. Thats why a natural dominance of some teams become likely.
  • Teams like Garmin, CSC-SaxoBank, Columbia and Gerolsteiner are well known to have signed a lot of the best time trialers in the world. Thats why we can also expect it to be natural if those teams are showing a more dominant performance in this specific discipline.
  • Teams with many ITT specialists, also have more training, wind tunnel tests, and investment for best equipment, compared to other teams.[/i]

Those factors above are extremely important to take into account, before deciding whether or not any ITT results from the Tour is looking suspicious. You can’t necessarilly base anything on a TDF TT. The main reason why the results dont show us anything, is because of the tactical decisions being made, that only a few riders are going full speed, while the rest are saving forces for the next stage. To eliminate such tactical factors, it would be far better to look out for the results from a dedicate ITT “one day” race. We only have 2 such races on the calendar, where all the top level riders are riding, and that’s of course the WC/OL ITTs. Again we should however remember, that even though the tactical factors are not disturbing the picture at those events, we still have the 2 other important factors to take into account, that those teams/nations having hired/invested in the best ITT athletes, also will show a tendency to be dominant, without this being suspicious by itself.

why did I then became suspicious about the 4 T-mobile riders in top10 at the ITT time trial from Tour de France 2006?[/u][/b]

Most important reason, was of course the Freiburg case where Werne Franke highlighted that he had proofs about at least 5 riders from the team having recieved blood doping at the Tour. I have to admit, that I didnt became suspicious about the result itself during the Tour. Next piece of information was a report from the official Lausanne Lab from last year, that aprox.50% had been blood manipulated in 2006, and that a different pattern of suspect samples had been discovered in 2007. The Lausanne Lab pointed out, that in 1996-2005 there was a tendency of certain teams having [u]all[/u] their riders submitting suspect samples, while in 2007 it was more a pattern of some teams “collecting” on a handful of doped riders.

When further looking at the results, I also became suspect that the allegations from Werne Franke was correct, since I not only found 4 riders in top10, but more importantly those 4 riders were also all posting a superior time, being max.3% slower than the winners time.

from the TDF time trial 2006 (that were all max.3% slower than the winner):[/u]

01 Gonchar (T-Mobile): 1.01.43 = 50,55 km/h
02 Landis (Phonak): +1.01 = 49,73 km/h
03 Lang (Gerolsteiner): +1.04 = 49,68 km/h
04 Rogers (T-Mobile): +1.24 = 49,43 km/h
05 Larsson (FDJ): +1.33 = 49,30 km/h
06 Sinkewitz (T-Mobile): +1.38 = 49,23 km/h
07 M.Fothen (Gerolsteiner): +1.41 = 49,19 km/h
08 Klöden (T-Mobile): +1.43 = 49,17 km/h
09 Menchov (Rabobank): +1.44 = 49,17 km/h
10 Posthuma (Rabobank): +1.44 = 49,16 km/h
11 Evans (Davitamon-Lotto): +1.49 = 49,10 km/h
12 Karpets (Caisse d’Epargne): +1.51 = 49,07 km/h

When looking at the results from 2008, we dont find any team dominating within the magic 3% of the winner time. Of course we cant use this fact alone to rule out, that some riders/teams might indeed still have been doped, but at least it looks like the time differences was not with one team being superior above the rest. [;)]

from the TDF time trial 2008 (that were all max.3% slower than the winner):[/u]

01 Schumacher (Gerolsteiner): 1.03.50 = 49,82 km/h
02 Cancellara (CSC-SaxoBank): +0.21 = 49,55 km/h
03 Kirchen (Columbia): +1.01 = 49,04 km/h
04 VandeVelde (Garmin-Chipotle): +1.05 = 48,99 km/h
05 Millar (Garmin-Chipotle): +1.37 = 48,59 km/h
06 Menchov (Rabobank): +1.55 = 48,37 km/h

We already know that Schumacher was doped, so now lets look at the others from the 2008 race as suspects.

I’ve always maintained that we will not know the sport has been completely cleaned up until the overall average speeds at the tour start to come down from their unreal times from the last decade. We’re starting to see that a little bit, but even a look at the above times show that there are still riders who are posting speeds that are hard to accept as being natural. I’m referring to the riders with times above 49 kph. Look at how the times slowed from a couple of years ago overall. Not as many riders seem to be doping. But a quick look at this years results, combined with the rumors of teams we’ve heard lately tells us that it is possible that Cancellara and Kirchen are likely suspects, as they are both still riding at what appears to be a unnatural level in respect to their competition. VandeVelde is right there not far behind, but his team is not involved in any rumors. Was VandeVelde the rightful winner of this years TDF time trial? We’ll find out soon.

by The Long Emergency on Oct 10, 2008 11:50 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow. Thank you, TLE.

That’s a very thought-provoking post.

by NE Observer on Oct 10, 2008 12:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, thanks for that. Interesting.

I only looked at l’Equipe about 6 times this afternoon which I thought was quite restrained of me. When the heck are they going to tell us?!

by Albertina on Oct 10, 2008 3:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply