Cooke, Cavendish and British Cycling
by fmk on Nov 23, 2008 10:10 AM EST
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PrintIt's cycling Sunday in the UK today, with the Absurder giving-over seven and a half thousand words, give or take, to Nicole Cooke, Mark Cavendish and British Cycling's management team. Three different journalists – Anna Kessel, Tim Lewis and William Fotheringham – looking at three different aspects of the sport in the UK. Not bad for a wet and miserable Sunday in November.
The Fotheringham piece is the easiest to get out of the way. Nine hundred words and nothing very interesting said. But when secret squirrels, odd shaped nuts and the amazing properties of cherry oil get more credit for the Beijing bauble haul than the actual cyclists did, it's the sort of piece you can expect. It's mostly about the fantabulous management structure of British Cycling and the brilliance of British Cycling's very own Peters Principle.
There's no real news in the piece. British Cycling's road squad – ANC Halfords-Linda McCartney Mk III – is targeting the Tour in 2010. Or 2011. Germany's Heiko Salzwedel – recently of Team Denmark – will be returning to British Cycling in January and ... well, actually, that's pretty much it. No mention of Roger Legeay. No mention of Scott Sunderland. No mention of riders to watch. A light and slight puff piece for the men behind the medals.
How about a woman with a medal then - what's Nicole Cooke got to say for herself? Well you can usually count on Cooke to say something about drugs in sport. Here's what she tells Kessel:
"There's awful problems in men's cycling now. I really can't understand the mentality they have. It's almost like they know they're going to get caught now because the testing is so good and yet they still do it. It's an historical problem. I think women compete because they love the sport, not for the financial gains or status there is in men's cycling."
Me, try as I might, I just can't get myself inside the heads of people like Tammy Thomas, Marta Bastianelli or Maria Isabel Moreno, all of whom have helped drag this sport through the mud this year.
On other controversial issues, Cooke's been there, done that and worn the t-shirt. While Dave Brailsford is a relatively new recruit to the fight for equality between men and women at the Olympics – men: eleven events; women: seven, with all the disparity happening on the track, where the men get to race seven events and the women only have three – Cooke's already fought the good fight, having served on the Women's Commission at the UCI. But as she tells Kessel, that episode proved to be a bit of a waste of time and energy. The other women on the commission simply didn't feel the disparity was a problem.
But how about the disparity between track and road within British Cycling? There Cooke clams up a bit: "I don't want to make enemies." Pressed on the issue by Kessel Cooke does acknowledge a gap exists between the two disciplines: "It is true but then Dave Brailsford would admit that. Because they thought that medals were easier, or more likely to get on the track, and so they invested on the track." Which prompts Kessel to ask Cooke if that means track cycling is less competitive than road cycling: "You might have to be careful how you write that. Do some research, find out how many riders were on the start list for the women's sprint and then find out how many riders were on the start list for the Olympic road race." According to Kessel's research, that means there's more competition on the road, by sixty-six to twelve.
That's about as far as Cooke is willing to take that issue though. Mark Cavendish on the other hand, isn't pulling his punches and British Cycling comes out of his interview looking a little bruised and battered.
"At first after the Olympics, I was pissed at Brad," he tells Lewis. "But if he's made to train for 4k, for sure he's not going to be good at 50k. And they [British Cycling] were all about the team pursuit and he just had to train at 4k. In training, they would just ignore me while they timed the team pursuiters going round. They trained so much for that that they forgot the Madison - well, they didn't forget the Madison, they didn't give a shit. That's not fair when I've given that much commitment to it. I left the Tour de France - the biggest bike race in the world - when I was fighting for the green jersey and I could have potentially won on the Champs Elysées, and it makes me bitter that they didn't give back what I'd given to them."
Not that British Cycling are just going to stand there and be a punching-bag for the Manxman. Chris Boardman seems only too happy to jab back at one of the stars of British cycling, dissing Cav's post-race interview style – "he can be a bit of a dick sometimes" – and trying to blame the Manxman for his own Madison miseries: "Mark's goal for the year had to be the Tour de France and that meant that we had to take whatever was left. Afterwards, he had to take a break for a week when the other guys were on a training camp. Then he wanted to capitalise on it and ride some Criteriums around the world and then he just wanted to do some training on his own in Manchester. And all this time the other guys were on an Olympic camp, doing specific preparation for the Games. So I don't think that helped massively."
Across the three pieces, you get an interesting picture of British Cycling, I think. Cav can afford to criticise them, Bob Stapleton pays his salary, not Dave Brailsford. And come the worlds, come the Olympics, come the launch of Team GB Reach For The Sky+ Box (or whatever it'll be called), British Cycling will come calling on Cav's services regardless of his criticisms. British Cycling need Cav more than he needs them. Cooke, it's the wins she'll get in a Team GB jersey that matter more than the ones in her new Vision1 colours. Cooke needs British Cycling at least as much as they need her. And British Cycling? They'll just go on and on an on and on, slapping one another on the backs and taking as large a share of the credit for their cyclists' successes as they can.
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Cav
is going to win this argument. I can’t really say who’s right, of course, but as odd as it seems, the guy who’s winning Tour stages handily is likely to convince a lot more people than Dave Brailsford. When LeMond used to ridicule USA cycling, I don’t remember thinking for a second that there was another side to the story.
Love the Boardman quote though.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 23, 2008 10:27 AM EST reply actions
judging by the success
of British Cycling this year and Cav’s tantrum history, i’d say both that Boardman makes good points and that Cav may not have quite the audience he thinks. reading some of what the Brit fans have had to say over the season, it seems to me they have been just as attuned (if not more) to what Cooke et al did at the Olympics and the successes on the track than what Cav has been up to. and Brit fans don’t have alot of tolerance for whining.
Steve Peters has my dream job…
Would you class is comments as whining? I just see him as a guy speaking his mind. He feels a little bit let down by British Cycling. Given the way British Cycling has treated others in the past – Charlie Wegelius’ banishment, for instance – you do wonder if there wasn’t a bit of petty-mindedness going on in British Cycling when it came to the Madison, simply because Cav stayed in the Tour longer than he was supposed to and then went and rode a few Crits when it was done.
Boardman’s comment about him being a bit of a dick in some of his interviews – true as it might be thought to be by some, I’d personally prefer a dick like Cav to the boredom of Boardman’s post race comments. A part of Cav reminds me of Robert Millar’s responses to some of the dumber questions asked of him in his career. As for the comment that Cav’s focuses weren’t conducive to Madison success… well even Boardman is forced to acknowledge that it was British Cycling’s gamble on Wiggins that was mostly at fault for their Madison mishap, not Cav’s preparation.
The way I see it, Cav had a choice – he could go the Wiggins route, give his career over to British Cycling and let his road career slide, going from team to team every other year and not winning a lot on the road. He could abandon British Cycling totally, the way people like Dan Martin have. Or he could try and make room for both. In Team Columbia I think he found an employer who was willing to let him do the latter and he gave it a damn good shot. In British Cycling though I think he found management that resented his lack of whole-hearted dedication to the cause of Team GB. In Team GB – as with Shayne Bannan’s comment below – it seems to be all or nothing at all, with that all being committed to the least competitive events, not the most competitive ones.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
what i think is...
that Brit fans could easily construe Cav’s remarks as whining in the context of other successes in British cycling. i do think Cav has some growing up to do, and at the same time the Madison was a a let down for all of us, including Wiggins, who has, in my view, shown a greater degree of maturity in spinning it for the press. it’s a combination of things that doesn’t seem to warrant getting polarized about, but as people seem to like polarizing, my point was that i didn’t see Cav as necessarily getting the knod for having the right point-of-view. the single-mindedness and whole-hearted dedication among the current British track stars, including the drive to succeed in 2012 seems to be one of the secrets of their success – i think it could be hard to drop into that from Cav’s current world, and so both sides of the debate could feel the difficulty in fit.
Wiggins has shown greater maturity? Running around Boulder carparks nekkid after skulling back free beer hardly counts as mature, now does it? :)
I think your point about Cav is more or less the same as mine – that it’s a question of track Vs road and it’s clear where Cav’s heart really lies. Me, I have no problem with Cav favouring the road, it’s the more competitive environment and he’s a competitive guy. And he did at least try to gve something back to Britsh Cycling. Even if he does insist on wearing an IoM jersey come the Commonwealth Games and not a Team GB one.
Maybe British sports fans in general don’t really care and only want to count the medal haul, and don’t rate highly a dozen and half wins on the road in one season. But it’s people like Cav who are going to be essential if Team GB Reach For The Sky+ Box (or whatever) is ever going to achieve it’s aim and win the Tour within a decade of of 2012. But you have to wonder if this is achievable if the apparent schism between trackies and roadies is as large as it looks, if it’s actually possible for British Cycling – with its current mindset of buying success – to succeed at both track and road or whether they can only be good at one or mediocre at both.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
you have checked your sources...
more thoroughly than i :) i’m just going by what Wiggins said later about Cav and the disappointment, etc. – seemed pretty honest and like he took responsibility for the loss and made it clear that Cav was not the culprit.
i have no problem with Cav favouring the road, either. i wonder if the schism (of whatever dimension) will iron itself out a bit as they realize that it’s counter-productive.
Monty mentioned Wiggins’ beer-fuelled streak on another thread and CFA linked to it – here’s the story. It was just part of a Garmin initiation ceremony.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
That you say Brad took responsibility for the loss and made it clear that Cav wasn’t the culprit is where I find humour – cause clearly in Lewis’s piece Boardman is trying to lay the blame at Cav’s door. What I find funny – unsettlingly so – is that a senior member of British Cycling’s management structure is dissing one of the stars of British cycling, particularly so publicly. As management styles go, it seems to be more stick than carrot, and not likely to engender confidence or commitment in the riders. Though I suppose they’ve got Steve Peeters there to try and massage that speed bump out of the way.
Is that really to be British Cycling’s approach: when a rider wins, downplay the individual cyclist’s role and take the glory for the management team; and when an individual cyclist loses, publicly reproach them for not giving their all to the cause of spending the stupidity tax on buying British pride? (Obviously Shanaze Read’s loss still showed she was giving her all, given that she was trying to take her opponents out when she lost her shot at a bauble.)
The schism between the road and the track is just one part of the problem here for me. What’s worrying me about British Cycling at the moment is how the management team seem so eager to blow their own trumpets. I’d have absolutely no problem with Cooke, Wiggins, Hoy, Cavendish or whoever blowing the management team’s trumpets. But when the managers are the ones doing it themselves? When Nicole Cooke’s victory in Beijing is being claimed for the management team’s choice of tyres and their talking her through the final corner before even she’s had time to change out of her racing kit … it’s like the management team are saying that the cyclists are just a cog in the wheel, as easily replaced as a blown tubular, busted chain or torn jersey.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
David Walsh in today’s Sunset Times with more on the Peters Principle.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Track Vs Road, Team Vs Country
Australia’s cycling boss Shayne Bannan seems to be declaring war on road cyclists and blaming their selfishness for Oz’s piss-poor medal haul at Beijing:
“Representing Australia and winning an Olympic Games gold medal has to be the No.1 focus that every athlete on the Australian team must have – no compromise, absolutely no compromise. Once we start compromising with individuals or ProTour teams, whatever the case, it puts us in a case where it’s not in our control. We do have to put ourselves in a situation, structurally, where we provide an environment for that mindset to happen – actually, that should be No.1, No.2 is the commitment.”
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
It's so selfish to want to make a living for your family!!!!
Is he gonna pay the riders what the PT teams are paying?
Nationalism is as ugly in Oz as it is anywhere else…
Never, ever, work with a sprinter.
by Put 'Em in the Gutter on Nov 23, 2008 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
Where does Oz’s money come from? The problem with the British money is that because it’s the stupidity tax, it’s really only the Olympics and Worlds that count as far as success is concerned. Piffling little events like Paris-Roubaix or the Tour don’t count when doing the ROI calculation. Cav’s eighteen wins don’t score anything in that calculation.
Even the three days a year the lottery-funded athletes are supposed to give over to good causes is seen by some coaches as being too much to ask. So I don’t see how the requirements of a commercial sponsor can be met as well. Peter King has dismissed Andy Burnham’s plan to raise a piddling GBP79m (USD2.37) from commercial sponsors like Sainsurby’s as being an “absolute non starter.” And that’s just when commercial sponsors are being asked to pony up less that 15% of the total budget.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
I think the problemn there is the sponsor clash
I’m still puzzled by exactly what sponsorship Halfords gave last year. In January there was lots of talk of Nicole Cooke riding for them on a Boardman bike etc. etc. yet when the Worlds came round the only name on her skinsuit was Sky, who were meant to be sponsoring the track team. So what did Halfords get for their money?
Isn’t there always going to be a sponsor clash though? The national team has one kit sponsor, the individual athletes might be signed up for a different kit manufacturer.
The Halfords deal – no idea, either about the January deal (which was the road team) or the March deal (which was supposed to be kit sponsorship). Sky does seem to have elbowed them aside.
As for riding Boardman bikes – you’d have to wonder how that isn’t a conflict of interests of some sort, given his role in the management team.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Them and Us?
There must be a bit of gang mentality thing going on with the pro road teams and Team GB too. I know Cavendish can come over as a whiner, brat or whatever but that’s not really the issue. If Team GB didn’t like Mark’s focus/itinerary/whatever they should have given him some kind of ultimatum or deal: you’ve got to be here or do such-and-such for this medal lark to work. Mind you, it wouldn’t have mattered anyway as Beer Boy Brad let him down on the day.
I’m a bit of sceptic but I am far from convinced that Team GB can do on the road anything remotely approaching what they’ve managed on the track. Squirrels they may have, but the opposition have been riding the pro peloton week in week out while they’ve been going round in circles (or ovals). TBH I think the management could do with a little less of the limelight. Credit where it’s due but they do get an awful lot of airtime.
Maybe Bannan has a point, though the words sour and grapes come to mind. If riders want to earn a living on the ProTour then team commitments will naturally come first. Cavendish says bluntly, Winning the Olympics will do fuck all for my cycling career.
One reason Vicky P is a bigger pull than Nicole is because UK mags completely ignore women’s road racing (no mention of Emma Pooley’s silver in the TT while talking Olympic medals) but the ladies of the track get plenty of space come the Worlds or the Cup. It helps that VP scrubs up well.
Thanks for posting the links fmk. I used to be a regular ‘zerver reader but I got bored. It’s full of hot air (trendy not-so-lefty high’n’mighty journo/celeb opinions) and not much news. Found I was chucking away whole sections and supplements unread.
I think some riders have spoken of Team GB’s gang mentality. You’re either in or you’re out, and if you’re out, you’re on your own. That’s partly how we got Dan Martin. So I guess I shouldn’t criticise it too much :)
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Britain's Gone Bonkers For Bikers
Even the Indy’s going over to cycling. Three papers in two days – this must be some sort of record for November. And it’s Nicole Cooke again. And she’s ‘whining’ about not being picked for the Olympics eight years ago in Sydney:
I was the best rider in Britain at the time, I definitely deserved to go. It wasn’t just that they made the decision, it was that they didn’t have the right. It says in the Olympic charter that age should not be a barrier, in fact a local lawyer heard about the story and got in touch. He was all ready to take up my case. But there was too much bureaucracy involved.
And again she’s distancing her discipline from the men of the road and their apparently unique predilection for pharmaceutical enhancement (it’s this year’s in-thing to do I guess, from Chris Hoy to Niels Albert):
I wouldn’t feel bad about that [being beaten by a junkie] because I wouldn’t have lost against a better rider, would I? Besides, there are very few [drug cheats] compared to men’s cycling, because the men have to be strong as juniors, then pass to an Under-23 team, and if they don’t get through that they’re not going to be a pro. At each stage they’re being funnelled in, and they’re desperate to make the next step. And the temptations are much greater. Women’s cycling is more about the love of the sport, because there aren’t the financial rewards. But even so, there are people who do cheat and I can’t imagine how they feel. It’s a betrayal of themselves first of all.
Remind me again – how many cyclists got busted at the Olympics :)
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Historical convergence?
Why is it that when I read all the coverage and, justifiably, glory mongering, in the papers does a little number come into my head…………………1966.
I'm not sure they're comparable
English football fans have been trading off the 1966 win ever since (I’m guessing that’s what you are referring to). It’s hardly comparable with a solitary favourable result 42 years ago, never since repeated, in the country’s national sport. The GB cycling squad are winning, dominating their sport and crushing the opposition right now. I don’t see the connection.
It’s a pleasant shock to see so much coverage but then if the athletes are so successful then the writers are going to want to fill their pages with good news, for a change. The GB Olympic medal tally would be much poorer without the cyclists.
Compare it with the amount of space devoted to HWMNBN in the media over the last month or two, now that’s what I call unbalanced.
Well said and well taken
Of course the GB squad ‘have’ dominated…all I was trying to suggest was that the media attention and expectations are beginning to approximate the same that always, and as we’ve seen, wrongly apply to the footy and hence result in a national ego lobotomy. Let us not confuse the achievement of ‘that guy’ and the GB team, it’s apples and oranges.
Perhaps, dominance is in the hands of the holder and hence fleeting.
I’ll go you one further, did the GB team beat everyone, or did everyone else loose? I’m not sure which side time will land on.
by bradBordeaux on Nov 24, 2008 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Strictly Come Sprinting
Cav’s in the Comic on John Sergeant and SCD (*):
He was hopeless, wasn’t he? I wouldn’t have voted for him. […] I can’t watch it. It’s too frustrating. I mean, how difficult can it be? You see these useless men who can’t dance. Even a simple Waltz. I mean, how hard can it be? The guy with dark hair, what’s his name? [Tom Chambers, the actor in Holby City] is good but Austin [Healy, the rugby player] isn’t as good as he thinks he is. His footwork isn’t right.
Cav, as you’ll by now know, was a ballroom dancer in his younger days (I can’t help thinking of him as being like Paul Mercurio in Strictly Ballroom). His father talked abut it briefly in yesterday’s Lewis piece in the Absurder and it’s been mentioned here and there before. But it would seem that Cav isn’t the only sequine-shirted hoofer in the peloton, as he pointed out to the Comic:
One or two riders have taken the mickey but I am not embarrassed at all. [Paolo] Bettini used to dance. I went up to him during the Giro and asked him about it and he thought I was taking the mickey. Then I explained that I used to dance and his face brightened up and we had a little chat.
Ah, ain’t that just soooo sweet? I wonder if they compare favourite dance-related songs? McCartney’s Ballroom Dancing Vs Ballroom Blitz.
And, it would seem, other old pros have appeared of Continental equivalents of SCD – Mario Cipollini in Italy; Nico Mattan in Belgium; and Jesper Skibby in Denmark. Somehow, I feel there’s almost a whole thread in this …
(*) I think I’ll leave it to Albertina to explain to people who don’t understand the whole John sergeant / SCD thing. Suffice to say, it was the only news this past week.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
John Sergeant and SCD? Where does one start?!
John is an esteemed political broadcaster of ours who somehow managed to make it past week 9 of Strictly Come Dancing simply by being awful. Cav says it all really. Better dancers kept getting through each week because the public, either through genuine affection or a desire for further laughs, kept saving him. Then he pulled out when he though he may actually reach the final and the country went completely bananas. Financial crisis? What financial crisis? He was on the front of ALL the broadsheets. And the main news headline. And don’t get me started on the letters pages…..“Sergeant was bullied!” " Kill the judges!" " This show is out of touch with the ordinary people!" " He gives hope to all us two left footers!" " I’ve never actually watched the show but how dare those evil judges do that?! "
Those of us who pointed out that it’s actually a DANCE competition got trampled all over. So tedious now, the whole thing. But as long as Tom Chambers wins, I’ll be happy :-)
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45220000/jpg/_45220367_sergeant512.jpg
They have this stuff all over the world
Dancing with the Stars, or Ballando con le Stelle, or something similar. I suspect they all have had a fat bloke who the judges just can’t get rid of at some point.
I once caught a few minutes of that Human Tetris show from Italy. Unsurprisingly all the competitors seemed to be fit young girlies in bikinis.
A few minutes monty? Purely for research purposes, I suppose :)
But I guess that’s Italian TV for you. Looking for video of Mario dancing, I found this. Check out the hostess at the start.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Here you are
3 minutes 31 seconds of research, an dyou should get a prize of some sort if you manage to make watch all 3 minutes and 31 seconds. The trouble is that Italian TV has been throwing barely dressed women in water since the early nineties. And that show aired during the hour between when schoolkids get home and when their parents get back from work. When we still had Bernard Cribbens on Jackanory and Blue Peter.
We had RTÉ as well, so had Wanderly Wagon, and later Bosco.
Didn’t the BBC do that Tetris thing recently? I’m sure I saw it mentioned in a newspaper somewhere. Saturday nights? It sounded bizare at the time, like Celebrity It’s A Knockout but clearly it’s part of a programme swap, the Italians take SCD, the BBC takes Tetris. I don’t recall mention of the contestants being nearly nekkid though.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
NINE weeks!?! Bugger me, I hadn’t realised it was that long. For some reason I’d guessed only four or five weeks, not more than two months already.
I do hope Sergeant is starting a trend here and cycling is paying heed. I’d love to see stage 15 of the Giro and LA calls a press conference to say he’s pulling out of the race, the joke’s gone too far and he’s in danger of winning the thing if he’s not careful.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Yep, Saturday was week 10 believe it or not! Flying by.
It’s quite sad, the extent to which this thing dominates my winter ;-)
As it's Fashion Monday ...
… how about offering some advice to Brailsford and Boardman:
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Boardman has clearly worn and washed his a few times more oftener than Brailsford has. Maybe Brailsford just goes through new pairs quicker than Boardman.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Yo!
Stay out of my dad’s closet!
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 25, 2008 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
Wow... DS Little Bear learned how to sign in as Chris.
"The most wasted day is that in which we have not laughed."
win or lose?
did the GB team beat everyone, or did everyone else loose? I’m not sure which side time will land on.
I’m not sure quite what you mean.
BTW the ladies were still doing it (winning) in Melbourne last week. Or is it everyone else’s fault for not wanting those medals enough? “After you.” “No, I insist, after you”…
oops
The above response should have been directly under bradBordeaux’s posting titled Well said and well taken further up. Pah! I need some sleep.
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