The Races That Mean The Most, Part One
by ursula
on Nov 6, 2008 10:26 PM EST
in Virtual Directeur Sportif!
And I have no idea when part deux will happen. This post is more to lay out the terrain or terrane, whatever.
But I've been mulling over in my head various things (besides Jennifer Grey):
- Of the top 15 VDS riders (you know- the list that doesn't include Greipel) only five of them spent any time at all on the Belgian cobbles.
-How did the God of Thunder earn 922 VDS points when I rarely saw him beat any of the top sprinters?
-Are there any races that attract the top riders that aren't in the VDS?
- And is sandbagging like porn- you can only define it by seeing/reading it?
So I looked at the races- VDS and various top other races to see who raced where to find how many of the top riders raced against each other. Look for the results on the flip but first, Jennifer:
And Jennifer:
via www.hbo.com
Okay.
So below I have a list of the races: all the VDS races and a bunch of the others, in calendar order. After each race I give a number which ,means how many of the top 31 VDS riders rode in that particular race and if space allows, the riders names.
Why the top 31? Several reasons. The top 31 includes every rider who earned more than 700 VDS points, meaning they were major factors in multiple races. These are the top riders of their teams. Also the top 31 riders have at least a couple of each type of rider, from goat to sprinter, chronomen and Classics guys. Italians and Spaniards. Even a French guy an American so I'm not favoring one category of rider here. In fact here are the top 31:
1. Contador 11. Sastre 21. Lovkvist
2. Valverde 12. Bennati 22. A Schleck
3. Rebellin 13. Gilbert 23.Van Avermaet
4. Evans 14. Gesink 24. Sanchez
5. Cancellara 15. Boonen 25. Pozzato
6. Leipheimer 16. Rodriguez 26. Devolder
7. Cunego 17. F Schleck 27. Zabel
8. Ballan 18. Hushovd 28. Pellizotti
9. Freire 19. Cavendish 29. Kreuziger
10. Kirchen 20. Menchov 30. Nuyens
31. Larsson
Oh yeah- I didn't include Ricco and SELLA! You really want to ask why? No? Good. Note: In the list of races below ( a long list) I would ignore the names of the riders at first glance and look mainly to see the number of riders. For those of you who's eyes glaze over when looking at lists and tables, commentary follows the list of races. To the races, VDS races in bold:
TDU- 1 (Gilbert)
Qatar- 2 (Boonen and Van Avermaet)
California- 9 (Boonen, Levi, Cancellara, Freire, Kirchen, Gesink, Cav, Lovq vist, Larsson)
Het Volk- 6 (Cance, Boonen, Gilbert, Hushovd, Nuyens, Devo)
KBK- 3 (Boonen, Hushovd, Devo)
Murcia- 5 (Contador, Valverde, Sastre, Menchov, Samu)
Castile y Leon- 6 (Contador, Menchov, Sastre, Samu, Cunego, Leipheimer)
Eroica- 3 (Cancellara, Ballan, Lovqvist)
Paris-Nice- 8 (Rebellin, Evans, Cunego, Gilbert, Gesink, F Schleck, Hushovd, Kreuziger)
Tirreno-Adriatico- 15 (Cance, Ballan, Friere, Kirchen, Boonen, J-Rod, Cavendish, Lovkvist, A Schleck, Pozzato, Devo, Zabel, Nuyens, Pellizotti, Larsson)
Milan- San Remo- 16
Dewaars-Vlaan...- 5 (Boonen, Cav, Van Avermaet, Devo, Nuyens)
E3- 8 (Cance, Ballan, Freire, Boonen, GVA, Pozzato, Devo, Zabel)
Crit. Int.- 6 (Valverde, Cunego, Kirchen, Gesink, F Schleck, Larsson)
Bra Pijl- 4 (Freire, Gilbert, A Schleck, Nuyens)
3D de Panne- 5 (Cavendish, Ballan, Boonen, GVA, Devo)
GP Mig Indurain- 5 (Valverde, Sastre, J-Rod, F Schleck, A Schleck)
Flanders- 11 (Cance, Ballan, Friere, Gilbert, Boonen, Hushovd, GVA, Pozzato, Devo, Zabel, Nuyens)
Pais Vasco- 11 (Contador, Rebellin, Evans, Cunego, Kirchen, Sastre, Gesink, F Schleck, A Schleck, J-Rod, Lovqvist)
Gent Wevelgem- 10 (Cance, Ballan, Friere, Gilbert, Boonen, Hushovd, Cavendish, GVA, Devo, Zabel)
Paris-Roubaix- 6 (Cance, Boonen, Ballan, GVA, Pozzato, Devo, Nuyens)
Klasika Prim. Amorebieta- 7 (Sastre, J-Rod, F Schleck, A Schleck, Larsson, Valverde, Cunego)
Scheldeprijs- 4 (Boonen, Cavendish, Pozzato, Zabel)
Amstel Gold- 15 (Valverde, Rebellin, Cunego, Ballan, Friere, Kirchen, Gilbert, Gesink, J-Rod, F Schleck, A Schleck, GVA, Zabel, Kreuziger, Larsson)
Fleche- 13 (Valverde, Rebellin, Evans, Cunego, Freire, Kirchen, Sastre, Gesink, J-Rod, F Schleck, A Schleck, Larsson, Kreuziger)
LBL- 15 (Same as La Fleche plus Menchov, Pellizotti, Gilbert, and no Kreuziger.)
Romandie- 5 (Benna, Cavendish, Menchov, Kreuziger, Nuyens)
Giro- 11 (Contador, Rebellin, Levi, Benna, Cavendish, J-Rod, Menchov, Zabel, Larsson, Nuyens, Pellizotti)
Dunkerque- 2 (GVA, Hushovd)
Catalunya- 4 (Cancellara, Ballan, Sastre, Hushovd)
Dau Libere- 7 (Valverde, Evans, Levi, Sastre, Gesink, Hushovd, Samu)
Luxembourg- 4 (A Schleck, F Schleck, Cancellara, Kreuziger)
Suisse- 14 (Cance, Cunego, Ballan, Freire, Kirchen, Gilbert, F Schleck, A Schleck, Lovkvist, GVA, Pozzato, Devo, Larsson, Kreuziger)
TdF- 20- Lots of people.
San Sebastian- 10 (Contador, Valverde, Rebellin, Cunego, J-Rod, Menchov, A Schleck, Samu, Kreuziger, Pellizoti)
Olympic TT- 9 (Contador, Cance, Levi, Evans, Kirchen, Gesink, F Schleck, Menchov, Larsson, Samu)
Olympic RR- 18
Eneco- 4 (Boonen, Devo, Gilbert, Benna)
GP Plouay- 7 (Cunego, Ballan, Gesink, GVA, Pozzato, Nuyens, Pellizotti)
Deutschland- 4 (Lovqvist, Larsson, and barely Hushovd and Menchov)
Vattenfall- 4 (Cance, Larsson, Lovqvist, Pellizotti)
Poland- 9 (Cance, Evans, f Schleck, A Schleck, Lovqvist, Samu, Pellizotti, Larsson, Nuyens)
Vuelta- 17 (Contador, Valverde, Rebellin, Levi, Cunego, Ballan, Friere, Sastre, Benna, Gilbert, Gesink, Boonen, J-Rod, GVA, Pozzato, Zabel, Nuyens)
Ireland- 1 (Cavendish)
Missouri- 2 (Cavendish, Kreuziger)
Britain- 1 (Kirchen)
Worlds TT- 3 (Levi, Devo, Larsson)
Worlds RR- 20
Copa Sabatini- 5 (Evans, Gesink, Pozzato, Larsson, Benna)
Emilia- 5 (Rebellin, Evans, Cunego, Gesink, Nuyens)
GP Beghelli- 4 (Evans, Cunego, Gesink, Larsson)
Piemonte- 4 (Ballan, Larsson, J-Rod, Benna)
Paris-Tours- 11 (Ballan, Friere, Benna, Boonen, Gilbert, GVA, Pozzato, Devo, Zabel, Nuyens, Samu)
Lombardia- 7 (Evans, Cunego, Ballan, Gesink, J-Rod, Samu, Larsson)
Okay, comments and notes, completely at random:
- Cobbles. Yeah, most of the stars avoid 'em and you can see that in all sorts of ways. Paris-Roubaix is the Monument with easily the fewest top riders due to its freakish course. No surprise there. Flanders has its share but some of the lesser Flanders prep races are avoide d: I'm talkin' to YOU Het Volk, KBK, Dwaars, Brabantse Pijl, 3D, and Scheldeprjis!
To be fair though, notice the riders listed for Flanders and Pais Vasco. Starting with the Criterium International and E3 respectively, you have a split in the peloton with Belgians and sprinters favoring the cobbles and more climby/Ardnennes types going to the Crit then heading south to GP Big Mig, Pais Vasco and often the Klasika Prim. Amorebieta before heading up to the similar Ardennes triad.
- But in saying that you see (if you didn't know already) that the Ardennes trio are the culmination of the early season for the Grand Tour GC men.
-Speaking of splits, notice how many more stars go to Tirreno-Adriatico rather than Paris-Nice and Suisse rather than Dolphin.
- That the Tour is the most popular race for the big boys is no surprise. That the Worlds RR ties it is a surprise- though the course this year again favored those Ardennes/climby types while enticing the sprinters who aren't allergic to hills just enough.
- But look how much more top 31's the Vuelta attracted than the Giro. Contador winning the Giro sort of underscored how Italian focused that race is compared to the Vuelta. To me that's because so many riders rest up after the cobbles and Ardennes before prepping for the Tour, thus skipping the Giro. Relatively few ride in May- look at the low numbers for Romandie and Catalunya.
The Vuelta though, even though it has a lot of competition, and a lot more than the Giro has,- races overlapping with it are Deutschland, Poland, Britain, Ireland, and Missouri- attracts the big stars, even if many of them don't finish in prepping for the Worlds.
-Speaking of Poland, its tied for the most big names of the non-VDS races. Considering that Deutschland isn't racing next year, perhaps we include this race even though no Americans will probably see it? And the race its tied with with the most big names is California- more than 19 of the 37 VDS races. Any chance at all Chris?
- Veering wildly, the Hushovd question- how did he get so many points? is answered by the fact that he rarely went up against more than one top sprinter. KBK, Paris-Nice, MSR, Flanders, Catalunya, Dunkerque- all of these don't feature much in the sprinter category. Most have only one top sprinter like Freire or Boonen. He's usually facing the likes of Duque or Steegmans as his main competition.
Pictured: Duque, sometimes spelled Dookie in the foreground:
- Now sandbagging. I see two things. First are the quotes various riders put out, playing down their chances in some big race. Those quotes are fun and all but I can;t believe anyone takes them seriously. Check that. I can believe people, including some other riders, take them seriously because some folks are dumb as a bag of hammers.
The other sandbagging isn't really sandbagging but using races for training. The rider's form isn't at its peak though he is trying hard-usually, with notable exceptions being Freire (California this year) and Sastre (Free Dolphin). Otherwise look at say Menchov in Romandie this year: he didn't quite have the form he showed at the Giro but he still tried to win the race.
I'm bringing up sandbagging/training because some of the races listed above are used for training purposes for the bigger races by the big stars.
Note: I tried to google image 'bag of hammers' and what I got was (among various hammers) Kay Bailey Hutchinson. Truly scary image there and so I won't post it.
That's it for today. Anything hit you from these figures?
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correction: Cav rode 3D of De Panne
He won two sprint stages.
AND Thanks for compiling this Ursula. I don’t have the patience for it.
by brunopitton on Nov 6, 2008 10:53 PM EST 0 recs
Oh- and fixed the Cav thingy
Thanks for the correction.
by ursula on
Nov 7, 2008 1:04 AM EST
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Right
but he didn’t finish it, which may be how he slipped through your dragnet first time.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris... on
Nov 7, 2008 12:39 PM EST
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About T-A vs. P-N and Swiss vs. Dolphin
Looks like the extra numbers are mainly sprinters and big-guy non-climber types that go to T-A and Swiss, a lot of the riders seem to overlap. There must be less climbing, perceived or actual, in those races. Thor must be bravest sprinter because he is willing to ride those bigger mountains, like Ventoux in P-N and the Cols of Dolphin?
by brunopitton on Nov 6, 2008 11:09 PM EST 0 recs
The Dauphine is harder than Romandie?
I always just assumed, without any real look, that the terrain was tougher in Romandie.
by dheadrick on
Nov 8, 2008 10:32 PM EST
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thanks
This clearly took a lot of work and was rather enlightening.
+1 on adding TdC
Thor seemed to be sick a lot this year. Hopefully that wasn’t just an excuse and he’ll be stronger next year. It will be interesting to see how Cervelo supports him in the Spring
by jsallee00 on Nov 7, 2008 12:45 AM EST 0 recs
Shows stats limits
To me this shows that the number of top 31 VDS guys in a race is not a real good statistic about the stature of the race or what kind of riding to expect. Aside from the fact that in some of the races there are riders just there to get miles in, if you looked at post tour crits you would would get much higher numbers of names than many of the name races. Does that mean they are higher class races?
Cycling is NOT like NASCAR. There is no overall season title, and there can’t be a meaningful one as long as the riders aren’t juiced. You can’t be peaked for the whole season, and thus there will be different sets of riders at different season points and regional races. The cobbles are different and people who won’t score points to make the top 30 VDS will be the contenders (barring a few) there. If you are aiming to peak for the Giro for example you cannot be peaked for the starting classics.
by Markk on Nov 7, 2008 12:46 AM EST 0 recs
Interesting comment about NASCAR
I guess what I didn’t explain very well was I am trying to find out which races do more riders point towards as highlights of their seasons. You are absolutely right that riders can’t peak for the whole season (and I don’t think NASCAR teams can truly do that either) so given that what races do they peak for, or what races do more of the team leaders, talismans for their teams, peak for since we are talking about most of the team leaders here.
Much of what I am showing here is not really news. Monuments and Grand Tours get more love than 2.HC races. Duh! But I’m trying to eventually see further into the pecking order, beyond the hype as it were. The broad outline of the season for the peloton in general is actually simple:
- After the very early (pre?) season races in southern France/Italy, Spain, California, Australia, Qatar, and South Africa (a nice group of places to visit), the peloton sort of splits in two: the Belgian cobbles series and the southern Europe series. The top races in both areas can pull riders from the other circuit but less so than I might suspect given that, in my mind, similar riders are successful in both circuits. There is one thread of races that holds a certain group of riders- the T-A, MSR- Flanders prep (Dewaars, E3, 3D), culminating in Flanders itself. The Boonen series one might call it. Some of those Boonen series riders go on to Paris-Roubaix, some don’t. That race favors a certain type of rider as Chris has pointed out.
- The two circuits stay largely separate until the Ardennes Classics, though the reality is that the cobbles racers mostly take a rest at that point while the southern European riders move north. But with the “united circuit” the number of top riders or team leaders in the Ardennes Classics is larger than the earlier Belgian cobbles Classics.
- After the Ardennes a large number of team leaders take a hiatus and that hiatus extends through Romandie, the Giro and Catalunya. The riders need a break and so those races have 2nd line leaders and young prodigies and Italian teams.
- The big boys start coming back with the Dauphine Libere, but particularly the Suisse Tour in prep for the biggest race of the year, the Tour de France. That I am sure surprises no one here as the race, regardless of Lance’s (and America’s) fixation on it, is the highlight of easily the majority of the team leaders (and secondary leaders too.) At the Tour you see the union of the big Belgian cobbles guys with the big Ardennes guys, plus any goat that missed the Ardennes (most don’t though). CQ is right to give the Tour more weight in its system than the other Grand Tours.
- Naturally then the races afterward show a decline in top level talent. Many of them are, as you say Markk, are riding the post-Tour crits, which aren’t a huge tax on their systems. But the crits aren’t races; we all know that. But then the Vuelta/Worlds combo shows up and they rival the Tour for top talent: another peak to the season is upon us.
- Finally, and I find this interesting, is that post-Worlds, participation goes down even though there’s a late season series of delectable mainly Italian races on the slate and as we see from this year, their team leader participation rate is about at Belgian cobbles/southern European circuit levels, though its just one circuit here. In other words, the season sort of dribbles to a close even with the presence of one final Monument.
So that’s the year in outline. What I want to know more about is what I said above, why certain riders go to one race and not another when they could do well in the other. For instance, I think that more top riders could successfully race Flanders than we see. Why is that? That’s one of many questions I want to answer this winter.
by ursula on
Nov 7, 2008 2:12 AM EST
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In other words, the season sort of dribbles to a close even with the presence of one final Monument.
Isn’t that partly due to the season stuttering to a start with the likes of the TDU, ToQ and ToC? It was hard enough to find riders racing March through October, now we’re looking for riders to race January through October.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on
Nov 7, 2008 9:59 AM EST
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Probably true
Yeah the season starts, not with a bang but with a dribble. We may have a Het Volk countdown clock here but there’s no reason these days to point to that race as indicative of the start of the season.
But I wonder if Lombardia and the end of the season were hurt this year due to the Olympics draining various one day riders before the end. Cancellara couldn’t make it to worlds even while the big names at Lombardia other than Cunego just didn’t have it in them to mount a serious charge. Paris-Tours didn’t end in a bunch sprint- was Gilbert so good or did the peloton just not have what it had earlier in the season to keep him in check?
by ursula on
Nov 7, 2008 11:09 AM EST
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Blame Oz!
Why can’t these people race in summer like everyone else?
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris... on
Nov 7, 2008 12:42 PM EST
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Like the Claifornians you mean? :)
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on
Nov 7, 2008 12:50 PM EST
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two more bits
The peaking issue, natch.
But race selection – and peaking throughout the season – are determined as often by sponsor demands as by rider fitness and race importance. If not, more so. A race that is important to Liquigas might not be important to Lotto. Many of those delectable Italian races do not receive teevee coverage outside Italy. So, the Northern European teams aren’t interested in working especially hard at them, or showing up at all, since their sponsor-market won’t ever see them. TMobile never really cared about the Giro. Why? They didn’t sell anything in Italy. The Spanish teams were for a long time no-showing the Giro, also. Why? Spanish teevee and the RCS got in a fight, and the Giro did not appear on Spanish teeve.
Riders maybe skip a big race like Flanders, even though they could do well, in order to have fresh legs for a race that may be less prestigious, but matters more to their sponsors.
by gavia on
Nov 7, 2008 12:42 PM EST
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Reading the Anquetil book recently it has a story about him losing a Giro partly because his sponsor was actually in conflict with their Italian counterpart and didn’t want them to get the publicity.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on
Nov 7, 2008 12:52 PM EST
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"anquetil book"?
There’s an Anquetil book? Is it in English by chance?
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris... on
Nov 7, 2008 12:55 PM EST
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Sex, Lies and Handlebar Tape. Paul Howard. Yes, in English.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on
Nov 7, 2008 12:58 PM EST
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I've wrapped up my latest books.
Is this one worth getting and reading?
"The most wasted day is that in which we have not laughed."
by nikki on
Nov 7, 2008 2:07 PM EST
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If you need a solid English-language intro to Anquetil, yeah, it’s worth it. It takes it pretty much a year at at time. Has some good interviewees. Pilippe Brunel in particular. I mentioned he following story elsewhere, but here it is from the book, in Brunel’s words:
"Anquetil won the grand Prix de Lugano seven times, I think. After he’d won it six times, the organiser said to him it would be better if he didn’t come back next year, as he was finding it difficult to get sponsors because Anquetil kept winning. Then in the winter, he changed his mind and said he could come after all, as he was a star, a important rider, but if he were to let Baldini win, it wouldn’t be a bad thing. ’I’ve got nothing against you. It’s for the good of cycling,’ the organiser explained. Anquetil said, ‘OK, but you have to pay me at the start. I don’t want to wait around after to be be paid and have to face the journalists. And it’s double the normal rate. If not, I won’t come.’ It was all agreed, but when he arrived he went to see Baldini and said, ‘Listen, don’t say anything to the organisers, but if you want to win today, you must give me your appearance money.’ Baldini agreed and gave him the money up front, so he took all three fees, and he went and won the race. Just for a laugh. It was just a game to him. He got on really well with Baldini. they were very good friends. In fact, Baldini is still a god friend of Jeanine. it wasn’t about the money for Anquetil. It was about having fun. Anquetil just wanted to have fun."
Stories like that, that’s what I want in a cycling book, old or new.
It’s also got a great bit about his Dauphiné Libéré / Bordeaux-Paris double. Not just teh time line of, but also how they got him to agree to doing it (his wife told told him the couldn’t, wasn’t up to it, so he insisted he could, and did).
It also gives over quite a bit to his ‘family arrangement.’
Coulda done with more context in the racing years, I felt, a wider look at the sport. Maybe that’s just me being too picky, wanting too much. Overall though, yeah, a good read.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on
Nov 7, 2008 2:52 PM EST
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I remember thinking about getting it earlier this year
but I thought it wasn’t in english so I passed on it. Maybe I got that thought mixed with others that I know were in other languages. I’m going to check it out. Winters are great reading times.
"The most wasted day is that in which we have not laughed."
by nikki on
Nov 7, 2008 3:49 PM EST
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Nailed it
Well, don’t ask me about NASCAR, but where you say that races are special for different riders, you’ve identified the subjective factor that explains why we have a lot of cobbles stuff, or the Giro dell’Emilia, in there, while the Tour of Poland wasn’t. I think this is a valuable exercise and the statistics have value, they just aren’t the whole story.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris... on
Nov 7, 2008 12:41 PM EST
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This year's statistics alone might be a little misleading.
I’m not suggesting you do more of this excellent work but instead referring to the early season battles between the UCI and ASO. Paris – Nice would have had a larger showing had it not been for McQuaid threatening to take away rider’s licenses if they rode any unsanctioned races ( those run by ASO). And ASO not allowing Astana to race in their races for the whole year is another example.
I googled it, it must be true.
by flying dog on Nov 7, 2008 7:32 AM EST 0 recs
Oh yes
I quite agree. One year’s worth of statistics is not enough.
That said probably every year is unique because of injuries, doping scandals, and DS decisions.
But it would be good to do this for several years, keeping in mind that the forces that guide the racing calendar constantly change. For instance the beginning of the season keeps getting pushed earlier and what with the AEG/ASO alliance I fully expect California to grow further in prominence with better and better fields. To go another way, Deutschland’s ending creates a vacuum- how will it get filled?
But I’ll try to go back and get more years.
by ursula on
Nov 7, 2008 11:13 AM EST
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Great round up/analysis
Is someone missing, though? Menchov is listed at both 20 and 21.
by majope on Nov 7, 2008 7:40 AM EST 0 recs
%#%&%&*^@!!!!
Damn! Let’s see…. ah, I forgot to put Pellizotti on that list. Corrected. And it looks though like I did put Pellizotti in the race list. Okay. All fine there- thanks for the catch.
by ursula on
Nov 7, 2008 12:07 PM EST
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YOU LEFT OUT PELLIZOTTI?
After dredging up a photo of the real Jennifer Grey?
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris... on
Nov 7, 2008 12:43 PM EST
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Yeah I know
So ironic that I skipped over him. As penance I will get my hair permed today.
by ursula on
Nov 7, 2008 1:39 PM EST
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That is dedication.
Please do post photos when it’s over ;-)
by gavia on
Nov 7, 2008 1:58 PM EST
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Yes. Photos please. This I gots to see.
"The most wasted day is that in which we have not laughed."
by nikki on
Nov 7, 2008 2:09 PM EST
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Let Google rank the races
Tour de France (OR Tour of France) 14,600k
Giro d’Italia (OR Tour of Italy) 2,870k
Vuelta a España (OR Tour of Spain) 2,280k
Tour de Pologne (OR Tour of Poland) 1,520k
Deutschland Tour (OR Tour of Germany) 998k
Tour of California 806k
Olympics – Road Race 743k
Gent-Wevelgem 631k
Paris-Nice 604k
Vuelta Castilla Y León 526k
Olympics – Time Trial 505k
Monte Paschi Eroica 492k
Tour Down Under 385k
Paris-Roubaix 358k
Tour de Suisse (OR Tour of Switzerland 339k
Amstel Gold (+ race) 329k
Tour of Missouri 323k
Tirreno Adriatico 267k
Ronde van Vlaanderen (OR Tour des Flandres OR Tour of Flanders) 255k
Tour of Britain 234k
Tour of Ireland 213k
Giro di Lombardia 192k
Milan – San Remo (OR Milano – Sanremo) 167k
Paris-Tours (+ race) 140k
Eneco Tour 137k
Liège Bastogne Liège 128k
Tour de Romandie 114k
Flèche Wallonne 100k
World Championsips Road Race 98.1k
Het Volk (+ race) 95.6K
World Championsips Time Trial 93.8k
Giro del Piemonte 79.4k
Clásica San Sebastián 72.5k
Critérium International 71.6k
Vattenfall Cyclassics 62.6k
Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré 52k
Giro dell’Emilia 48.6k
Tour of Qatar 47.7k
Volta Ciclista a Catalunya (OR Volta a Catalunya) 41.4k
GP Beghelli 36.7k
Scheldeprijs 36.5k
Coppa Sabatini 35.4k
Kuurne Brussel Kuurne 34.4k
Dwars door Vlaanderen 33.8k
Tour de Luxembourg 29.1k
E3 Prijs Vlaanderen 26.4k
4 Jours de Dunkerque 24.1k
Vuelta Ciclista al País Vasco 21k
De Brabantse Pijl (OR La Flèche Brabançonne) 19.3k
GP de Plouay 15.3k
Klasika Primavera 12.1k
Vuelta Ciclista a Murcia 11.3k
GP Mig Indurain 11.3k
Driedaagse De Panne – 8.2k
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Nov 7, 2008 8:55 AM EST 0 recs
I don't understand the K numbers.
Could you explain? Hopefully, its not too simple. Are they votes?
by brunopitton on
Nov 7, 2008 11:08 AM EST
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The number is the number of pages Google returned for those search terms. k = 1,000.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on
Nov 7, 2008 12:36 PM EST
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Ha!
In a million years I would not rank Qatar above Plouay, on any scale.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris... on
Nov 7, 2008 12:45 PM EST
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uh, no
I can’t believe you had the patience to punch all of those into the Googler, fmk.
by gavia on
Nov 7, 2008 12:46 PM EST
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Weirdly, neither can I. I blame Monty for giving me bad dreams last night.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on
Nov 7, 2008 12:53 PM EST
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Not me
I guess it’s the Union Flag that’s really doing it.
by Monty. on
Nov 7, 2008 5:12 PM EST
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One point on the logic of Ursula’s ranking. Using VDS ranked riders to rank VDS races seems somehow wrong. It seems like a logic loop of some sort. Particularly by only looking at the top slice of the VDS riders.
Maybe if you really wanted to rank the races based on VDS points, you’d take every rider’s VDS score and got back to the start list of every VDS race and work out the total VDS ranking for that race, on a day by day basis, and somehow come up with an average per-rider score for each race.
There are other issues that need to be taken into account.
Races aren’t always open to the best of the best. The likes of the Tour of Ireland and the Tour of Britain have a limit on the number of top teams they can invite, don’t they? Plus you have to account for the fact that some of these races are local races, there’s more of a premium in the organiser inviting local teams with just enough top teams to give a PR boost. This also cuts the other way – your sponsor dictates your race choices.
You have to account for the way races compete with one and other, taking place within days of one and other or even taking place at the same time. Het Volk was March 1st. KBK March 2nd. Tirreno Adriatico starts in the middle of Paris Nice. The first third of the season is top heavy with races. Come the Olympics and the Worlds and the calender has been all but cleared.
Then there’s that different races suit different riders. What’s the cross-over between Paris Tours and Giro du Lombardia?
Ultimately, we, the fans, we’re looking for a great all rounder, someone who can win Flanders and the Tour. It’s remarkable who rarely we get such a rider though.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Nov 7, 2008 9:56 AM EST 0 recs
One possible quibble I see
is that while I have the top 31 riders as they finished the season I don’t have what the pre-season top 31 riders are. Or to put it another way, when the teams figured out their season last winter they may have prioritized other riders who didn’t come through- at least enough to make the end of season top 31. Bettini is one obvious example. Gerdemann is another possibility. Thomas Dekker. Kloden.
But in my mind that isn’t important. The season plays out as it plays out, which is never according to how the teams’ DS’s think it will play out. Did Liquigas think Kreuziger would blow up like he did? Did Rabobank think Dekker would cave or whatever he did? There are many such examples both with the top riders and the rank-and-file. Each season plays out and that’s the fun of watching.
But to answer some points you brought up-
I picked a top 31 to get a flavor of all the types of riders because I specifically wanted to take away the schedule conflict problem in the sample set. Yeah, T-A and Paris-Nice conflict- so how did that play out? What I called the Boonen series included T-A and its the major series in a spring that has many conflicts- though not the only series.
Vuelta, Deutschland, Poland, Missouri, Ireland, and Britain conflicted in various ways. How did that play out? The Vuelta sucked the air out of the other races. Britain didn’t get many top riders because they were busy elsewhere. Curious they didn’t get Cavendish. Deutschland featured mainly prodigies, not the establishment- and now its gone.
So yes, I did take into account race conflicts as that’s one of the things I wanted to highlight. Obviously each race had its compliment of riders and teams but its clear that some races are not favored by almost every team this year. To me the whole stance of RCS- who they were inviting to their races- was about trying to get the top riders. They didn’t invite Astana and High Road and Credit Agricole and Bweeg! for the same reasons- those teams had a history of not providing much in the way of quality. RCS was able to get High Road and Astana to select better riders that they would have as a result.
Finally , “Using VDS ranked riders to rank VDS races”- I see no problem with that since we are talking about the best riders and races in the world. I do agree that it would be better to take every rider’s VDS score and see how the races play out. In fact I will try to do that eventually. But one thing- these top 31 take a huge share of VDS points easily. But I will come back with a more comprehensive score with all riders- eventually. In the meantime I’m interesting in seeing what the top 31 tell us- and they tell us a lot if one wants to look.
by ursula on
Nov 7, 2008 12:28 PM EST
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One of these days!
Pow! To the moon Alice, to the moon!
by ursula on
Nov 7, 2008 1:40 PM EST
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But RCS didn't invite Astana to none of their races until
Giro?
Klöden was the defending champ of T-A, that didn’t make any sense why they excluded them from ALL their races as ASO did…(until Giro that is)
by Bruce Suomi on
Nov 7, 2008 1:47 PM EST
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Poland
I am open to including Poland.
The standard we set, without looking it up, is to find the races that feel like they matter the most. Obviously rider participation is the #1 factor. But as you demonstrate, after the monuments and grand tours, the peloton starts splitting up into various factions for the rest of the races.
Next factor was history and subjective quality. For example, Emilia got in because it’s old and the palmares list has a hall-of-fame sound to it. Cali didn’t get in because too many guys are just training (and because the VDS submission period was still open).
The last factor was regional balance, which is just a way of spreading the possible points around the peloton factions, which largely break down on nationality lines. Actually, I’d be interested to see whether we awarded points equally to Spaniards, Belgians and Italians… but that was the plan. Just because I’m a slave to the cobbles doesn’t mean you should be able to win the VDS by picking 20 Belgians. Incidentally, we (I) agonized over which Spanish regional Tours to pick, settling on Pais Vasco and Catalunya. The latter sucked this year and appears to be on thin ice, despite its history, so we’ll be in the market for another Spanish week-long race.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris... on Nov 7, 2008 12:53 PM EST 0 recs
race wise, Poland is crap.
The conditions the riders faced again this year, so late in the season, were not pretty. Added that live feed was very limited because of those weather conditions, I’m amazed why this race can have a PT status, they just get the riders sick there with very bad organizing, as the protests are pretty regular by the riders every year….
by Bruce Suomi on
Nov 7, 2008 1:58 PM EST
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hm
OK, this will require some debate later.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris... on
Nov 7, 2008 2:48 PM EST
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+1
Poland struck me as a labor dispute / lockout in bad weather, with incidental bicycles. Bad for all concerned. Do not include, please.
by JFS_PGH on
Nov 13, 2008 7:04 PM EST
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"Actually, I’d be interested to see whether we awarded points equally to Spaniards, Belgians and Italians"
Yeah I’m interested in that as well. I’ll get to it next week.
Yeah, the only reason I bring up including Poland is that they might become a bigger race with Deutschland folding and it being a pro tour race. ( Imagine Poland benefiting from Germany’s demise.) If Deutschland had continued there would be little reason for including Poland.
And, to be clear (which I’m not) I don’t advocate eliminating any cobbles races. Doing so would be beyond silly.
Spanish regional races- There’s several factors here. Most of the early season are almost totally Spanish rider orientated. I’m not sure picking Castile y Leon or Murcia would be wise as they just don’t have the pelotons.
Then you have the two one day classics around Pais Vasco. I could imagine including them, or at least one of them, Amorebieta the more likely though Big Mig is also good. That Basque week of those three races has history in itself as well as leading directly to the Ardennes triad.
That leaves Catalunya and I keep going back and forth on this one. That’s one of the things I was looking for- what do the top riders do in May if not the Giro? Basically they are off training and sunbathing I guess- at least last year. The big names that did Catalunya used it for training it seemed leaving it to be much like Deutschland, a place for prodigies and French guys. I guess May, after two (plus) months of hard racing for everybody, can’t support more than the Giro. Riders are tired and all three Grand Tours suck the air out of the peloton when they run, even the Vuelta.
by ursula on Nov 7, 2008 1:59 PM EST 0 recs
At any rate
my main intention is not to debate on which races to ad to VDS as any races that might be added are marginal. Its not like there’s a MSR out there… lurking….
by ursula on
Nov 7, 2008 2:03 PM EST
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May?
The guys who rode hard on the cobbles are taking a break, and getting ready for the Tour.
The Tour guys generally ride the Ardennes, then go scout mountains and do training camps before hitting the June pre-tours and their July peak.
The Giro riders are natch at the Giro, then they try to hold form for one of the June race – Daffy and Suisse – and then go on vacay during July. Lots of the Italians who aren’t riding the Tour take July off, maybe head to Austria, then gear up for the later season races. Pretty much true of guys who aren’t riding the Tour during July, too. They’re prepping for the next big events, either Vuelta or one day races or both.
by gavia on
Nov 7, 2008 2:05 PM EST
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oh, sorry ursula,
Thanks for the great work again! Very good!
by Bruce Suomi on Nov 7, 2008 2:10 PM EST 0 recs
Looks like the Tour of California should be VDS next year!
by dheadrick on Nov 8, 2008 10:41 PM EST 0 recs
Since many of us will be there, I think so... :-)
"The most wasted day is that in which we have not laughed."
by nikki on
Nov 9, 2008 12:54 AM EST
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Nope
It’s too much of a training race. Maybe my eyes will convince me otherwise. But then, we’d also have to turn in our team rosters two weeks earlier.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris... on
Nov 10, 2008 6:37 PM EST
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