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Around SBN: Can Tebow Say No To Anything?

Rebellin played the sucker bet

No way should Rebellin have helped Valverde for one second during the last 30K of LBL.

The first question posed to Reb' had to be this:
Under which circumstances are you likely to beat V'verde in a sprint?

The answer: Absolutely none! There are no circumstances in which Reb' wins a sprint over that guy!!

When the last Schleck fired on Sunday, Reb' said he agreed to work with Val to bring 'em back. Dave proved that instead of a cold blooded assassin with ice-water, blah, blah, blah..., he is an extremely talented fop (you're going to have to use the obsolete definition for that word, which is "fool," because it makes the sentence sound just that much better)!

Davide has never learned to gamble in these situations, and has paid the price his entire career. Except for his purple-patch a few years ago, he has been on far too many podiums and far too few top steps.  

Had Dave chosen to sit on Valverde instead of working, he could have expected two scenarios: The first and best, was for Val to tow Dave up to Frank and then possibly a fresher Dave could have beaten them both in the sprint (actually, I think Val still might have won; but it was, by far, Dave's best shot.) And the second scenerio was to hope for a regrouping if Val decided to sit up once Frank was gone. Rebellin had a better chance in a more chaotic sprint where he could have attacked while Bettini and Valverde watched each other.

What's your opinion on this?
Are you one of those who believe that some kind of honor is gained by towing (probably) the best uphill sprinter in the world to the line? Is it better to get a look at the line (even though you know you can't sprint, and have lost on numerous occasions in just such a scenario), than to gamble and take yourself out of the race?

Remember when Horner sat on Chav' in a Tour stage a few years ago? How do you think Chris sleeps when he thinks about that one? What about Kelly on Argentin in Sanremo? If you haven't seen it, Youtube...

Never work with a sprinter!!!!!!!!

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That my friend
is just good advice.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it"-Upton Sinclair

by ELVISGOAT on Apr 29, 2008 1:20 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

"Never work..."is good advice
but the answer to the question "Under which circumstances are you likely to beat Valverde in a sprint?" is : Sometimes after a tough 260km race. Rebellin isn't such a poor sprinter himself, and Valverde was pretty cooked in the sprint at Amstel, so it might have been a reasonable gamble by Rebellin. Better certainly that sitting there looking at each other while Schleck powered away to victory.

That said, Valverde was always going to be  the favourite in the last 300 m so I personally  think Rebellin should have done what he's done in many races this spring: ride aggressively. If he and Schleck had played the one-two on Valverde one of them might have had a shot.

by Jens on Apr 29, 2008 3:26 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah I think that's a fair point
Rebellin isn't a complete slouch in a sprint. And maybe he was punting on Schleck - who has by far the worst sprint of the three - trying something in the final km, and trying to use that as a springboard. As happened though, Schleck just sat on (hoping for what exactly?) and Rebellin was left to respond to Valverde.

by Rothko on Apr 29, 2008 6:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sometimes the simplest explanation
is the right one. Both Schleck and Rebellin have stated that they were to fried in the final km's to try an attack and took their chances in the sprint, hoping that Valverde would be too tired to sprint as well as normal.

by Jens on Apr 29, 2008 7:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

After Andy was brought back
neither of them tried to get Valv.Piti to go to the front at all.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it"-Upton Sinclair

by ELVISGOAT on Apr 29, 2008 7:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the cynic's Paul Harvey
who's to say that the second half of that conversation between Valverde and Rebellin didn't start with this:

How much ya want for the win?

by R Mc on Apr 29, 2008 12:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Boonen vs. Cancellara
Curious, was there a similar thread about Boonen playing the most successful rider of 2008 for a rube by slapping his ass at the Paris Roubaix red kite and making him assume the position?

by humboldt on Apr 29, 2008 2:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Late coming but
I'll add: I thought it was an intriguing sprint, made more so by the Roche aux Faucons hill. Your analysis proved right, but at the time I wondered if even Schleck still had an outside chance, based on how tired the other guys were. Valverde looked least fresh, but not by enough to lose in the end. Rebellin has won on the Ans climb before, so he couldn't be dismissed either. But Valverde... he's a fast little sandbagger, isn't he?

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2008 2:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He is indeed
I was thinking after Frank tried to drop them twice that he should try it again with help from Rebellin, but clearly he was as cooked as Frank and hoping Valverde was too. You pays your dime and you takes your chances - Balavderde just had enough left in the tank finish it off.

Unlike Boonen, who managed to open a 1/2K gap on Cancellara / Ballan in the span of 20 meters. He had plenty left.

"Only those who are in top condition can say that the Ronde is not hard. For everyone else, it's the Way of the Cross." -Andrea Tafi

by Drew on Apr 29, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Horner sleeps fine at night
Horner said he and Chavanel were both going for the win.  Neither wanted second place and sometimes the bunch catches you when you are playing cat and mouse.  But he seemed to have no regrets, very much like Rebellin.

by brunopitton on Apr 29, 2008 2:59 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

_
My point is that Horner sleeps well, but Davide doesn't. I realize that Horner hasn't won that kind of races that Reb has, but Horner IS an assassin. I guess that's what I'm trying to heart. (Please excuse the "heart thing; I'm just trying to fit in around here.)
Never, ever, work with a sprinter.

by Put 'Em in the Gutter on Apr 29, 2008 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Failed rider agreements
I remember Tricky Ricky Viernque and Axel (I'd like to buy a vowel) Merckx riding together on Bastille Day, with a decent enough gap on the peloton to clinch the stage win, apparently TR needed the points that day to sew up the Polka Dot Jersey, so Axel was doing the majority of the work dragging TR up the mountains, supposedly in exchange for the stage win.  But Uh Oh, on that last climb Richard took one look at Axel over his shoulder and he powered off alone, (leaving Axel in the dust) to take the stage win and the Polka Dot Jersey

Moral:  Never make a deal with a Frenchman on Bastille Day.

If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague

by bethie on Apr 29, 2008 4:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Or
trust a Sicilian when death is on the line.
"Only those who are in top condition can say that the Ronde is not hard. For everyone else, it's the Way of the Cross." -Andrea Tafi

by Drew on Apr 29, 2008 5:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Or
trust Richard Virenque with anything, under any circumstances. I still don't understand why he's Drew's all-time favorite rider.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2008 5:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I will
kill you.
"Only those who are in top condition can say that the Ronde is not hard. For everyone else, it's the Way of the Cross." -Andrea Tafi

by Drew on Apr 30, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's strange that some people like Virenque
Well the heart wants what the heart wants I suppose.

 I don't know Drew but perhaps he's a similar type of rider and that can explain his man-love for Virenque

by Jens on Apr 30, 2008 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is Chris' way
of twisting my tail. As soon as I started following cycling (1999) I was on to Virenque as a rider. I kept asking myself how the guy in the spotted jersey kept finishing 20th when a stage finished on a climb. Then I started reading the back stories about the Festina scandal from '98 and my opinion of him took an even deeper dip. Then Jaja started winning the KOM at the Tour and that pretty much put the nail in Virenque's coffin.

And I remember the TdF stage well with Axel (have it on DVD). He was pretty fucking furious with the way that turned out.......

"Only those who are in top condition can say that the Ronde is not hard. For everyone else, it's the Way of the Cross." -Andrea Tafi

by Drew on Apr 30, 2008 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And for the record
I can't climb for shit - I'd be like Aldag chasing Virenque in "Overcoming" and being ridiculed afterwards for it by Zabel :-)
"Only those who are in top condition can say that the Ronde is not hard. For everyone else, it's the Way of the Cross." -Andrea Tafi

by Drew on Apr 30, 2008 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The danish commentors when Aldag was dropped:
There's Aldag, planted, like a tree in the Harz.... (german forrest)

by Jens on Apr 30, 2008 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He didn't do too badly,
2:24 for 2nd on the stage and he did take the Polkey jersey for a day. But I don't think it was worth the ribbing he took from Ete.

"Each one of these spots cost me a year of my life."

"Only those who are in top condition can say that the Ronde is not hard. For everyone else, it's the Way of the Cross." -Andrea Tafi

by Drew on Apr 30, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mmm, tactics.
Never work with a sprinter.  Yes, this is certainly true under two scenarios.  If you are in a break that is well-established and there is little chance you will be caught by the main field, don't work with the sprinter.  Either attack the crap out of him/her, try to sit on, or take fakey weak little pulls that save your legs as much as possible.  If you are in a break early in a race, don't work with the sprinter either.  Try to force him or her to work.  If you fail, you might as well allow the break to get caught and reshuffle the cards.

But deep in the finale of Liegi is another story altogether.  Rebe faced two scenarios whose odds he had to calculate: Baby Schleck off the front and Baby Schleck chasing.

Baby Schleck off the front.  
Here, Rebe had two problems to resolve.  Young Andy was killing the climbs one after another.  His move there at 'round about 20 km to go (I didn't re-watch this, so my highlight reel might be a little off) had the look of a winning move.  From my couch, it certainly looked like he could go all the way if given half a chance.  Rebe had to ensure he wasn't given that chance.  

But Rebe also had to consider the chase at this point.  Though working with/for Valverde was less than ideal, allowing the chase group containing the screaming fast Cunego to catch would have only made matters worse.  With Andy Schleck off the front until the Saint Nicholas, we saw Rebe working, Val sorta kinda sometimes working, and Franky sitting on.  Here, Rebe is making the best of a not-so ideal (like, totally not ideal, actually) tactical situation.  He doesn't  necessarily want to go to the line with Valverde, but he can't give the race away to Andy and he definitely doesn't want to sprint against Cunego.  Pick your poison.

On to Andy Chasing.
On the St Nicholas, Andy is caught and Franky predictably counters.  So totally textbook right there.  Rebe has a new dilemma, a dilemma created largely by the double-teaming from CSC.  He must know that Franky nearly won Liegi last year with a move right about here on the St Nick.  If he hesitates, he loses, giving the race away to Franky.  He also must have hoped that he could go with Franky, leave Val behind, and win the two-up with Franky.  Perfect ending for Rebe.  Things are looking up.  But Val the cagey bluffer had the legs to follow, and it was all back together.  At this point, you say, Rebe should have stopped working, and forced Val to finish the deal.  

But still there is Andy to consider.  Watch the finishing shots again, and he is within the view of the camera behind the sprint.  He never got that close to getting back to the front threesome, but he was close enough that a wise rider could not ignore him.  You never really want to allow a team mate to make it back on to the break, especially not that close to the finish.  Doubly so in this case, because Andy was quite possibly the strongest rider in the race on Sunday.  Rebe certainly does not want to reach Ans with a pair of Schlecks and Valverde.  If both Schlecks had made the finish, it's almost certain that one of them would have won, even against two superior sprinters.  The advantage of a team mate in a sit. like that is huge.  

So again, Rebe is forced to calculate among unpleasant alternatives.  If he doesn't work, there's a good chance Val won't either - certainly Rebe knows Val's rep for wheelsuckage-wait for the sprint tactics as well as we do.   Then, Andy catches and Rebe almost certainly doesn't win.  If he does work, he will likely keep Andy from re-joining the group.  He knows in a three-up he can certainly beat Franky, so by working, he gets at least second.  And since he's no slouch himself in a sprint, he knows he has at least a chance at beating Valverde.  So, he works.  It's not the ideal scenario - Rebe must have been wishing that Andy would flat or temporarily drop off the planet, since the other chase groups were long gone by this point.  But with Andy chasing, Rebe is short on options.  He works to keep the threesome away, and hopes that Val has left his sprint somewhere in the neighborhood of La Redoute.

Perhaps it was a mistake for Franky to sit on at Ans and wait for the sprint, rather than going early the way he did at Amstel.  Rebe covered him so quick on the St Nicholas, though, he must have thought he had little chance to get away again in the last km.  He also may well have been out of legs, having played his last card on the St Nick.  Only he knows for sure.

For me, Andy was (yet again) the revelation of this race.  He made those climbs look so easy.  But also impressive and maybe overlooked at tad, was a top ten finish from Nibali who came in right behind Bettini.  I like that guy more and more.

I so heart the Ardennes.  

by gavia on Apr 29, 2008 5:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

_
I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I think we all enjoy this so...

The thing I think you are missing is that Reb had to gamble in order to win, period.

I don't see where anyone should be able to call Dave even a mediocre sprinter. I think I can remember one race over the last few years (again, his purple-patch aside) where he won a sprint that surprised me--although I can't remember the name of the race.

And as far as the Andy problem goes... I don't believe that was really such a problem at all. It didn't matter who of the three (Andy, Dave or Frank) attacked; Val should have been forced to do all of the chasing in the last 10K. Had Andy returned to the front near the finish, I don't believe that would have automatically hurt Reb. Tactically, the CSC cards were only good until 1K to go. Once they were all on that last climb, I don't think any sort of lead-out would have been effective. What are you gonna do, send one brother up the left side of the road and another up the right?

The bottom line for me is this: Rebellin had to gamble in order to win and he didn't. He didn't gamble, and he didn't win. He played the race completely straight and he came out looking like an idiot (to me)--again. If you are not willing to lose a race by gambling, then you have to be the strongest on the day. If the strongest always won in cycling, I wouldn't watch. It's why I don't much care about the Tour.

Never, ever, work with a sprinter.

by Put 'Em in the Gutter on Apr 29, 2008 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

holy crap...
sorry, that ended up really long.  really, you should probably start charging me by the word or something ;-)

by gavia on Apr 29, 2008 5:59 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That'll be
$100. Payable to DS Little Bear.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2008 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sweatheart...
When you write as well as you do, Chris should be paying you for every word you write!!!

I love Andy and I so would've loved to have seen Frank attactk a bit more and CSC allowed Andy to rest a bit more as I think he could've won it with  final kick on that last incline. I heart him!!!

Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want. -Randy Pausch

by nikki on Apr 29, 2008 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and that was
so supposed to say SWEETHEART!
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want. -Randy Pausch

by nikki on Apr 29, 2008 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ha!
Promise I showered after my ride, really ;-)

by gavia on Apr 30, 2008 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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