Ricco caught on EPO

by Bruce Suomi on Jul 17, 2008 6:45 AM EDT Comment 111 comments

and has been asked to leave the Tour. No news yet about the rest of the SD team.

What a huge blow this is, even though I don't like the guy, this is truly sad. Makes one think what the rest of the team is up to.

update: The Saunier Duval-Scott team has voluntarily withdrawn from the Tour and gone home. Sad day indeed.

Source, l'equipe

Update by Gavia A few more details. The positive tests date from the time trial at Cholet. According to l'Equipe, Ricco tested positive for a new form of EPO, Continuous Erythropietin Receptor Activator (CERA), which has only recently come into use. This may explain his confidence that he would not be caught out by the authorities, as he likely believed that the authorities could not yet detect this variant. The other two positives of this Tour de France also used this same variant of EPO, according to Pierre Bordry, President of the AFLD. If indeed CERA was not previously detectable, we may well see more positives in this Tour and some surprise abandons, especially since these three positives announced so far date from so early in the race.

Saunier Duval DS Joxean Fernandez has also suggested in a press comment today that the team will stop racing altogether as a consequence of the Ricco positive. No confirmation just yet of that, however.

Update.Ricco was arrested before the start of the stage, and has been held for questioning by French authorities, and is currently in French custody with an interpretor and lawyer for company. It is not known when he will be released. The Prosecutor, Antoine Le Roy, will give a press conference at 18.00, about the legal status of the rider.

Update. According to a brief summary of the prosecutor's press conference, a preliminary investigation has been opened against Riccardo Ricco, and it seems, Team Saunier Duval. French authorities stopped the team bus near the département de l'Ariège at 17.50. Presumably, the police searched the bus, and it remains unclear whether the team has been allowed to continue on its way.

Update. More details from the press conference. The prosecutor explained that Ricco will be charged with possession and use of a prohibited substance which carries a pentalty of up to two years in prison and a monetary fine. He is currently being held in Mirepoix, but tomorrow will be transferred to Foix, where the investigation is based. The hotel of the team is currently being searched for evidence. Ricco has so far denied using the drug, and claims he is innocent. One report suggested that the team bus has been seized, though I have not seen further confirmation.

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Comments

i'm tired

I am so tired. This is never going to end. Maybe it’s time to apply life bans for this sport. The whole Saunier Duval smells like shit. I’M TIRED, WE ALL ARE.

by King of Doping on Jul 17, 2008 6:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

+1

by Bruce Suomi on Jul 17, 2008 6:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i'm pissed off!

never liked the guy but this sucks.

i am master of my fate, i am captain of my soul

by randie on Jul 17, 2008 8:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i'm so sad today

Honestly i never imagine Ricco with doping but other SDV was almost a evidence….

by semprenaroda on Jul 17, 2008 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right on

This is just terrible. There is no other way to say it. As a fan, I am crushed. What the fuck is wrong with these idiots? Throw em in jail for a few years!!!

by EuroPeloton on Jul 17, 2008 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Whoa!

by itswells on Jul 17, 2008 6:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He wasn't worried a couple of days ago.

What, me worry?

It’ll be interesting to see his rebuttal.

by itswells on Jul 17, 2008 7:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

SD is out of the race too?

by Bruce Suomi on Jul 17, 2008 7:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

answering my own question

yes, the team decided not to race anymore…

by Bruce Suomi on Jul 17, 2008 7:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

good

by King of Doping on Jul 17, 2008 7:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Woa!

Um . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .ahhh . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I need a drink.

by Ryan_Liles on Jul 17, 2008 7:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

predictable

My brain thought he was probably on the juice, but I so wanted him to not be doping.

by kimchi on Jul 17, 2008 7:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I just hoped has was genetically mutant douche.

If his B sample is confirmed, that will probably the end of SD also.

by Ryan_Liles on Jul 17, 2008 7:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd been waiting for Ricco to do himself some serious damage.

He seemed to me to be trying too hard to emulate Pantani, His story had to become a tragedy but I guess I was giving him too much credit, he had no need to come to the Tour this year. It’s like he was just begging to get caught, he could have stayed home and no one would have thought any less of him. Now we can have the next two years to ourselves to forget Ricco, he never was or will be Pantani. He’s just a loser.

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana. - G. Marx

by flying dog on Jul 17, 2008 7:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

+1

by Softie on Jul 17, 2008 8:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is awful

As a person I never liked him but I loved his style of racing. If any big star dopes it’s terrible but Ricco’s young and exciting. I guess doping isn’t just limited to the older generations as we’d so love to believe. What a class A idiot.

by Albertina on Jul 17, 2008 8:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

SD is looking for a new sponsor too,

this might be the end of the team, hard to think they’d get a new sponsor now…

by Bruce Suomi on Jul 17, 2008 8:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Yup . . .

. . . the team was built around that kid and he was their main selling point to a new potentail sponsor.
I’m pretty sure they’re dead; which at teh end of the day is real shame in all of this.

by Ryan_Liles on Jul 17, 2008 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who called it?

Was that Nikki who called it on Ricco a couple of days ago. Someone mentioned his soigneur, Ricco said he uses him only for massages when he’s back home.

by spokejunky on Jul 17, 2008 8:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hand up

I called bullshit on SDV on Hautacam.

"I won! I won! I don't have to go to school anymore." -- Eddy Merckx, after winning his first bike race

by ELVISGOAT on Jul 17, 2008 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah many of us did

It’s pretty easy to spot bullshit, especially when that bullshit just flies away time and time again.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 17, 2008 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

right you are

"I won! I won! I don't have to go to school anymore." -- Eddy Merckx, after winning his first bike race

by ELVISGOAT on Jul 17, 2008 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fixed link

Ricco said he uses him only for massages

by spokejunky on Jul 17, 2008 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

massaging his ego

"I won! I won! I don't have to go to school anymore." -- Eddy Merckx, after winning his first bike race

by ELVISGOAT on Jul 17, 2008 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

he's always had a shady rep

even among Italian fans. not an especially popular rider there, as he had lots of troubles with the authorities as an amateur.

i’ll check around later, but there should be some more deets readily available about his past escapades now.

by gavia on Jul 17, 2008 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have to confess

that I love a good train wreck.

181 & 165

by callmecayce on Jul 17, 2008 8:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

you got some problems for saying that

obviously not a real cycling fan

by EuroPeloton on Jul 17, 2008 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i am totally a real cycling fan

i love when they catch dopers.

181 & 165

by callmecayce on Jul 17, 2008 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Organic rubbing compound

Ricco…this is my special organic rubbing compound. I used it for Marco and you see what it did for him? I set you up for a big win. Ciao.

by spokejunky on Jul 17, 2008 8:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Not to ruin the Ricco-bashing session but...

anybody got a Stage 12 thread going?

by itswells on Jul 17, 2008 8:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

No sign of it yet

Chris must be crushed by the Ricco news… another fork into Team Unibrow.

Looks like the break just got caught though…

"I won! I won! I don't have to go to school anymore." -- Eddy Merckx, after winning his first bike race

by ELVISGOAT on Jul 17, 2008 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

self correction

looks like the break Little Sammy D and some other French guy are still out there

"I won! I won! I don't have to go to school anymore." -- Eddy Merckx, after winning his first bike race

by ELVISGOAT on Jul 17, 2008 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

can some of you english speakers set a live thread up...

the word demand is annoying.

by Bruce Suomi on Jul 17, 2008 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

this does make me think that maybe

Liquigas and Barloworld should quit the tour.

181 & 165

by callmecayce on Jul 17, 2008 8:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

same here

by Bruce Suomi on Jul 17, 2008 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

nikki

I am taking to nikki via phone. she has no internet connection. She is speechless… Other than so sorry Drew

by rose on Jul 17, 2008 8:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Live thread is live

Sorry guys, commuted in by bike today and was immediately stunned by the Ricco news. I’m so fucking pissed off right now I can’t even type straight.

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 17, 2008 8:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Thanks Nikki

I’ll survive :-)

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 17, 2008 8:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Survive yes, that I know.

But, I was still very sorry to hear this news and I still (even after a couple days) feel bad after just having asked you about him. I wanted to believe he was a freaky climber and I for one am just pissy with the whole retardedness of those still trying to do it. However, I am finding some comfort in seeing them catch them and getting it addressed quickly, even with new uses low on the rador. I’m hoping that is sending an even louder message in saying they are trying there damndest to stay in front of the cheats.

"The most wasted day is that in which we have not laughed."

by nikki on Jul 20, 2008 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So

does this mean that everyone that we think is doping is? Is everyone that who is having a great performance is doping?

sigh

by Hons on Jul 17, 2008 8:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm not prepared to go that far yet

If only because if I do, I’ll spiral down the rabbit hole completely. And I don’t wanna do that.

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 17, 2008 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

by Bruce Suomi on Jul 17, 2008 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fuck

fuck, fuck, fuck, FUCK!

I never liked Ricco either (just didn’t like his attitude), but this just sucks.

I was really hoping the Hautacam suspicions were wrong, but clearly they were correct.

Sometimes you have to give luck a kick in the balls - Jens Voigt

by mikelpearce on Jul 17, 2008 8:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

and now i question some of his 'talent'

i don’t have a lot of love for bigmouths, but ricco just confirmed my feeling that he is indeed a jackass!

"Race radios in Cat 4?"

by gravel road on Jul 17, 2008 9:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Are Barloworld riders "taking a dive"...?

Gutted about Ricco, but as others mention, not overly-surprised. Would have loved his performances to be genuine, but can easily believe they were not…

But, as a 4th Barloworld rider falls off a bike and has to leave the race, i’m starting to wonder if that may be the new approach to avoiding being caught doping. One of their team gets caught for a strain of substance that people didn’t believe could yet be reliably tested and then half the team fall off and have to abandon… ...??

Is that too cynical? :-)

Not sure, if i really think that, but am starting to wonder. Not that i’d personally be willing to dive onto tarmac at 25mph for anything…

by grim grimpeur on Jul 17, 2008 9:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I wondered the same thing

by Hons on Jul 17, 2008 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Look on the bright side...

There’s one less self-obsessed dickhead in the Tour, and the tests are catching the dopers.

Worse would be if there were no positives and all the dopers continued getting away with it (presuming there will be someone who feels the need to cheat this way).

At least he was rumbled promptly so no topsy-turvy post-race situation as in 2006 or the chicken forced out of the race while wearing the Maillot Jaune, as last year.

All said and done, there are still a load of other guys giving it their all every day for our entertainment. When the floc is removed from the surface hopefully the water beneath will be clear and clean. Despite its troubles I still love this sport, there’s nothing to match it IMHO.

by ruralwales on Jul 17, 2008 9:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

+1

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 17, 2008 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The tests aren't catching French dopers

because, apparently, le Tour is doing its best to avoid testing French riders:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/jul08/jul17news3

Concern has been raised over doping controls held at this year’s Tour de France, with a manager from an un-named team contacting the UCI in relation to the selection of riders and the actual method of gathering samples.
The AFLD [French national anti-doping agency] has been appointed by race organiser ASO to carry out the tests in the aftermath of its split from the UCI. According to the team manager, only about fifty riders were tested thus far, with several being tested more than once. The Spanish are being examined most frequently, while testing of French riders was said to ‘rarely occur.’

He gave an example of a lack of testing of a French team, saying that of the Crédit Agricole riders, only stage winner Thor Hushovd was tested since the start of the race.

MJB

by MJB on Jul 17, 2008 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Look at the top 20

Why bother to test the French riders? :-)

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 17, 2008 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Heh -- but there has been a French stage winner

I think the general concern is lack of accountability. ASO/AFLD arbitrarily decide who to test or not test. There is no outside authority even verifying that the result of every test is reported as positive, negative, or inconclusive… so who’s to know if some positive test results are reported while others are not.

To respond to gavia’s comment below: That is a possibility, but it still indicates a different approach to French riders. For example, there are rumors that Moreau withdrew under pressure because of suspicious previous test results. So perhaps they threatened to test Moreau during the Tour in order to motivate him to withdraw under the pretext of injuries—whereas they didn’t just threaten to test Ricco; they tested Ricco four times in ten days. That would mean there is one set of rules for French riders and a different set for everyone else, which is exactly the concern that the team director expressed to UCI in the passage excerpted in my comment above.

MJB

by MJB on Jul 17, 2008 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: French Stage Winner

Surely to god all stage winners are tested including French stage winners. If French stage winners were not being tested that would be a news story in itself and the sporting press are
asleep on the job if that has not been made public.

I disagree with your logic. Ricco was tested as many times as he was because of his stage results and his holding of the Polka Dot jersey. If French riders are not being tested as much its because they were not preforming in the same way. You are suggesting the French are doping and getting mediocre results all at the same time. Doesn’t say much for French cycling now does it.

by bikenik on Jul 17, 2008 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

I thought every stage winner was tested, as well as the maillot jaune and several other riders each day. After all, that’s how Landis was caught. Had he not won stage 17 that year, we’d never have been the wiser…

by Le Comte on Jul 17, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm saying that we have no idea...

... we have no idea which French riders are doping and which are clean, if they are not tested.

Makes sense that Ricco would be tested after winning a stage, but according to ASO he was also one of the riders targeted for extra testing. (Can’t quarrel with targeting Ricco, but are only non-French riders targeted? Again, that was the original point here.)

As for riders doping and getting only mediocre results: Happens all the time, if you believe what certain riders (including former dopers) have said. Some guys have to dope just to elevate their performance enough to make their team’s squad for the Tour; some guys have to dope just to survive within the outer time limits on the mountain stages. In past years, when the only riders tested during a grand tour or after a major race were in the category of winners/jersey holders/podium finishers, back-of-the-pack riders had little fear of being tested.

And it sucks because we want to believe in great stories. We want to believe in a guy who rises from obscurity to finish on the podium at a grand tour… but that might be another Raimondas Rumsas, whose wife was busted with a car full of PEDs the day after Rumsas stood on the podium in Paris. We want to believe in people like Dara Torres. But when we do we feel like Charlie Brown running up to kick the football that Lucy is holding.

MJB

by MJB on Jul 17, 2008 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

a few points here

You are looking for a conspiracy where none exists.

First, the French federation has bio profiles for all the French riders. Their levels are known and closely monitored. This monitoring includes foreign riders on French teams, also. Consequently, there is no need for extra testing of French riders by the afld – they already know what they need to know. The French teams also closely monitor their riders and will withdraw them from competition.

To be sure, all of the names mentioned in the context of extra testing are non-French. At the same time, they are all riders who would likely contend for stage wins or the classification, which is to say, they are prominent riders in the race. In the absence of bio information from the UCI, the AFLD can only test and re-test to establish the levels on these riders. We do not know exactly why, after all, these riders have received extra scrutiny.

As for the warnings, yes, we know that 20 riders (sorry, i mis-reported this previously as 10, but the reports kept changing) received letters notifying them of abnormal levels. Though some speculation has occurred as to who are among the 20, we do not know who they are. We do know that Moreau was previously suspended from racing for several weeks in March for abnormal cortisone levels, but so far no one has been able to confirm that he had abnormla levels at the Tour, or even that he was among those warned.. One other French rider, John Gadret left the Tour abruptly also. No news has surfaced as to why, but we can be sure that if he was among those notified, his team would have withdrawn him immediately from the race, as AG2R has very strict internal anti-doping rules.

What we do not know is how the teams of the other 18-20 riders with abnormal notifications reacted, or even who they were. But given the absense of mass abandons, we can assume, that they did nothing. After all, an abnormal level is not a doping infraction, and only the French teams and riders will suspend themselves on these grounds. Riccardo Ricco may well have received such a warning; certo, he was among those subjected to extra testing. But if he did, he continued to ride apparently confident in the belief that his drug of choice, CERA, was not detectable.

As for daily testing, the yellow jersey, the stage winner, and two randoms is the norm. However, in this Tour, they appear to be calling more randoms. It is hardly a new departure that the randoms are not always random.

by gavia on Jul 17, 2008 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

I'm trying to think of French riders on non-french teams

Now that JaJa and DuDu have retired, they are harder to come by. Caisse D’Eparne hired a few when they brought a French sponsor on to replace Illeas Balears. There is a French young hopeful on Garmin, but I don’t think he came to le tour this year. Who else is there? Any French basques on EE?

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Jul 17, 2008 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

interesting

though i suspect part of the answer lies in the fact that the french authorities already have information on the french riders.

by gavia on Jul 17, 2008 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

sorry but

stories like this always appear when there are these events. Smells me like a pure speculation, no more…

Everyone knows that italians and spanish are the most problematic.

by semprenaroda on Jul 17, 2008 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Only 4 frenchies on C.A.

So not a great choice there.

by Rothko on Jul 17, 2008 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Everyone knows that italians and spanish are the most problematic.

As a percentage of Top riders the US has their fair share – see Landis and Hamilton for example

by cyclingchallenge on Jul 17, 2008 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Si.

Mos’ def’

by gavia on Jul 17, 2008 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Whoh!

The one day I decide to sleep in a bit! Really a sad day! The hints were there of some extra juice because of the way he zoomed up the mountains, but you really hoped it was just pure talent. In the end just pure stupidity!

by Veloki on Jul 17, 2008 9:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Phil not a spokesman for green power, eh?

by Sui Juris on Jul 17, 2008 10:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

oops, wrong thread

by Sui Juris on Jul 17, 2008 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Imagine

having to go to jail in this outfit, with a little arrow on your pants?

by Katiek on Jul 17, 2008 10:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

And crocs too

I would have thought an Italian would have had the sense to stay away from those things.

by .cjb. on Jul 17, 2008 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ricco doesn't have any sense at all,

fashion or otherwise….

by Albertina on Jul 17, 2008 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

As Tim Gunn says

They look like hooves. Bad judgement there. Just like his doping. And

by BDBrian on Jul 17, 2008 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Where's Spunout?

He’s gonna have a field day with this shit.

"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."

by Chris... on Jul 17, 2008 10:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Right here Chris

Of course I am not shocked about this whole thing. What makes me pissed the most is not that he denied others of the wins, but that he crushed the hopes of people wanting to believe that what they were seeing was real and not a fantasy. There are many here who believed that he was just a talented kid and maybe actually did have the talent he was displaying. I may have made some comments that made those people mad and irritated at me and for that, I am sorry. But I was apparently right in my suspicions and I think many people felt the same. I’m pretty upset and angry about this whole thing but I just can’t seem to put together a tirade at this point, maybe later.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 17, 2008 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well put

You were right; a lot of us were wrong.

"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."

by Chris... on Jul 17, 2008 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

RR was easy to spot

"I won! I won! I don't have to go to school anymore." -- Eddy Merckx, after winning his first bike race

by ELVISGOAT on Jul 17, 2008 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

there's no validated test for that

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/tour08/?id=/features/2008/tour08_micera_st12

by lucybears on Jul 17, 2008 10:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Interesting

I read the comments of Michel Audren on Cyclingnews as well. It concerns me a bit that he is supposed to be a leading expert on blood doping and consulted in creating the biological passport protocol and he knows of no valid test for CERA.

I’m all for catching the dopers, but not selling my soul to do it. Ricco doping is not hard to fathom, I am concerned a bit about the process. Both at the comments above about AFLD targeting Spanish riders and the lack of a valid test.

In the Audren interview, he makes the assertion that maybe they searched his room and found the product. That does not sound to be the case.

by John.. on Jul 17, 2008 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hincapie and Kirchen comment

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/riders_talk_at_start_of_tour_de_france_after_ricco_positiv_article_263705.html?aff=rss

says Kirchen:

"I can’t say it’s a surprise. There’s a high level at the Tour and when you see a rider cycle away like that you always get suspicious. You can’t prove it but there was a feeling that his performance was incredible."

(honesty from riders is refreshing, not just always “no comment”)

and Cav said it’s difficult to think about racing today …

by guidemd on Jul 17, 2008 10:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Didn't seem to stop him from winning

by Le Comte on Jul 17, 2008 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A few thoughts on Kirchen's comment....

“When you see a rider cycle away like that you always get suspicious….” So how suspicious were you, Kim, when half of the USPS/Disco team would “cycle away like that” on every mountain stage a few years ago?

“there was a feeling that his performance was incredible…” Sounds like Simoni’s prescient observation that Basso’s ‘05 Giro performance was “superhuman”, or the comments people were making about Rasmussen last year after his career-best time trial in the Tour. And, sadly, further proof that it is now reasonable to be suspicious about every extraordinary performance at this level of sport.

MJB

by MJB on Jul 17, 2008 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Doping is a lot like stealing cars

The thieves (dopers) are always trying to stay one step ahead of the theft alarm design companies (authorities) because for them, it’s worth the risk.

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 17, 2008 11:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

My tour flag is hanging even below half mast

Bastards

by cyclingchallenge on Jul 17, 2008 11:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

and tuttobiciweb just crashed...

time to reboot the servers…

by gavia on Jul 17, 2008 12:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

gavia,

if they open preliminary investigations against Ricco, and Team SD, then they must have found something???

thanks for the updates, keep ‘em coming

by Bruce Suomi on Jul 17, 2008 1:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

reasonable guess, yes

i’m taking off for a while, but i’ll stop back in later and post a few update thingies.

by gavia on Jul 17, 2008 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This must be a relief for the guys who are clean

Imagine being on a team with internal testing, riding clean and watching others who are rumored dirty ride away from you. It must be frustrating.

Today the clean riders received a big dose of validation.

Go Team Zoe!
Cavendish, Di Gregorio, Fothen, Kirchen , Kreuziger, Lowe, Siutsou , Ten Dam , Y.Trofimov and Vandevelde

by ZoeRochelle on Jul 17, 2008 1:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

For sure

but I still think they like us would prefer if these things were dealt with at any other time than the biggest party of the year.

by Jens on Jul 17, 2008 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Am I wrong in thinking that most doping happens around the time of the Tour?

Its the brutality of the Tour that has them doping – the length, need for 21 days of stamina and quick recovery and help just surviving is a big reason for the doping.

Please explain if I am wrong. I want to know where my logic is flawed. I also remember reading this somewhere a couple years ago. If this is logical there will be more positives at the Tour?

Go Team Zoe!
Cavendish, Di Gregorio, Fothen, Kirchen , Kreuziger, Lowe, Siutsou , Ten Dam , Y.Trofimov and Vandevelde

by ZoeRochelle on Jul 17, 2008 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No I guess you are right

The potential gains are so much bigger in the Tour and with that comes a bigger incentive to dope. And it’s all about the money ultimately.

by Jens on Jul 17, 2008 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Depends on the dope used

In the old days, round 1 of the EPO years, Mr 60% time, when the winner tended to be whoever had taken the most, they doped up for whichever races they were targetting. Maintaining that high haematocrit was too dangerous, as in will you wake up tomorrow dangerous, and probably too stressful to want to keep going for more than a few weeks at a time.

After they got the EPO test in c2000 everyone went to doping with their own blood. Then you had to plan your whole season around the transfusions, because just as adding a unit of blood makes you feel much better going up the Alps, so taking that unit out makes struggling up those same climbs in the Free Dolphin infinitely more miserable. It tended to happen then as the storage techniques they used only kept the blood fresh for a few weeks or so. You could move the bad period to earlier in the year by doing as Jorg Jakschke said Fuentes did, taking some out in the off-season then pumping that back and draining some fresh every few weeks. Even so, you only got the one boost when you put the blood back without taking more, so most tried to do that at the Tour.

Jaksche also mentioned an interesting technique that Fuentes was developing (but based on something the Americans had developed for the military in Vietnam, I think) of preserving drawn blood for up to a year. Once again you feel like shit whenever they take the blood, but then you can top up a lot more often.

I don’t think the brutality has a lot to do with it; the Giro is often far more brutal. The Tour is just a lot more important for most teams, sponsors, riders.

by Monty. on Jul 17, 2008 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

thank you for the info.

Go Team Zoe!
Cavendish, Di Gregorio, Fothen, Kirchen , Kreuziger, Lowe, Siutsou , Ten Dam , Y.Trofimov and Vandevelde

by ZoeRochelle on Jul 17, 2008 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

For what it’s worth, I’ve spent the entire morning trying to figure out the testing that they’d use to detect CERA. It’s quite different from the recombinant EPO that had been used as a doping agent before. The EPO test is fundamentally flawed and the original paper documenting the test has data that do no match the written conclusions, mostly in that they say that there aren’t false positives though there are false positives in their data. As a therapeutic diagnostic, I suspect it wouldn’t pass the FDA guidelines, but forensics seem to hold a much, much lower stringency for acceptance.

CERA appears to be a substantially different molecule than EPO that delivers a much more sustained and prolonged boost. My best guess is that it should not only be easier to detect, but that the test shouldn’t be as clunky and haphazard as the EPO test.

by jae on Jul 17, 2008 1:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Which means

it’s a bad choice for cheating cyclists.

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 17, 2008 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Indeed. I suspect that anyone using thought that it wasn’t presently detectable and/or wasn’t being tested for.

By all medical reports I can find though, it is at least as effective as old AMGEN standard, if not more so (and likely a whole lot safer to use for those chosing the uh, “off label” application.)

by jae on Jul 17, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

From my quick perusal of the article

medically it’s a really nice breakthrough for people with severe anemia. Instead of the old method of EPO injections several times a week, CERA will be necessary in as little as once or twice a month dosages, as its affects last much longer (hence the attraction to cyclists).

The catch is it stays detectable in your system longer and also has that little give away for those who know what to look for.

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 17, 2008 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If the detection marker

is real, and not just misinformation from WADA meant to scare folks, then that is a pretty slick feature. EPO and this new stuff are truly lifesaving and wonderful medicines. I have several family members who have survived cancer and EPO is one of the drugs they used. Good stuff when used as directed.

by Jimbo... on Jul 17, 2008 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I doubt very much that there’s a detection feature purposely designed in for benefit of anti-doping detection. It’s more likely that the detection feature is that this is a synthetic compound in itself and the properties that give it its therapeutic properties Designing in a detection agent adds a variable to the human clinical trials. You’ve then got to show that your compound works and the secondary bit works, is safe, doesn’t interfere. It just seems unlikely that there’s anything intentional about the detection.

by jae on Jul 17, 2008 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

question on timing

If both Duenas and Ricco positives date from Cholet TT…and all positives of this Tour were the result of using CERA—why did we hear about Duenas yesterday and Ricco today? To put it another way…with tests occurring daily, why would results from the same post-Stage test be staggered? (I am just curious here.) Thanks.

by asg. on Jul 17, 2008 2:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Luck of the draw?

Maybe they tested Ricco’s sample the day after they tested Duenas’ sample? If they are controlling a bunch of people in addition to the normal pattern of just the stage winner, jersey holders, and two randoms, then they may be a little behind in their tests. The tests probably take some time to do and I doubt they stay up all night running the tests. Pure speculation on my part.

by Jimbo... on Jul 17, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lab protocols to be followed

Regardless of whether or not Landis was or was not taking performance enhancing drugs, the lab processing the samples did a disgraceful job of testing. The QC provisions in place were pretty crappy and it doesn’t look like they even followed their own crappy QC standard operating protocols. [Wanna hear the real scary thing? Criminal forensics labs are often no better.]

I’m not sure how long a test for CERA would take to run, QC, and rerun (ideally at an independent lab, but that’s the sort of thing that, while entirely sensible, almost never happens). One way to try to keep things clean and correct is to run smaller batches in randomized lots. This has the cost AND benefit of slowing down the results but it almost always means that there should be no expectation that samples received at the same time should be processed at the same time. Too much too fast is a recipe for mistakes.

One would hope that they’ve learned their lesson and actually make sure they’ve got their ducks in a row in reporting the results.

by jae on Jul 17, 2008 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

timelines

Hate to think of another Landis scenario… test results come out after the whole damn thing was over and everyone had gone home. Are there any drugs that could be taken the day/night before the final ITT that would help? Seems like EPO, of any form, takes longer to work its magic.

by phantom_51 on Jul 17, 2008 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

One report said

that not only one but several Ricco test were positive. Is it possible they waited to get more positive samples to make a better legal case?

by Jens on Jul 17, 2008 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

read that too.

by Bruce Suomi on Jul 17, 2008 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think they have 7 days to complete all tests

on the A sample – and there are actually several days worth of testing required – it isn’t just the EPO test. And I think there may be a bit of back and forth between the lab and AFLD where multiple suspicious results come from the screening w.r.t. which tests to confirm (because there isn’t enough urine to confirm everything if multiple issues are found) and TUE issues before the final results are known. So it isn’t quite so simple that the results should automatically all come out at the same time.

by Rothko on Jul 17, 2008 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What the hell... they're holding Ricco in Mirepoix?

... will they then move him to Mise En Place to be tried for Coc au Vin?

Ricco stole my marbles.

by crashdan on Jul 17, 2008 6:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

"Do you have any of them California drugs with you?"

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Jul 17, 2008 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ack, I screwed up both the Fletch quote and the posting. I suck.

You guys doing any illegal drugs you brought in from California?

Just a little beaujolais.

What’s that?

It’s a pretty popular drug…made mostly from grapes.

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Jul 17, 2008 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Stop it

I’m getting hungry

by Jimbo... on Jul 17, 2008 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Riccard Ricco held in Mirepoix...

... he stewed in the can for roughly 35 minutes at 85 degrees before being transferred to an ice bath to preserve the freshness of the sample. Obviously the subject has become a hot potato within the peloton and it is being determined whether the future aspirations of team Saunier-Duval are cooked. Regardless, many of the riders were pretty steamed about it, while some begged the public and fans to just let the subject rest, “Lettuce Leaf this sad day behind us. Being a Proteam racer right now is like being in a pressure cooker” said one rider who requested anonymity. “I’m Hoppin’ John Vaughters efforts to crack this bunch of nuts will be recognized” exclaimed another.

Truly, it may be said that this story is only half baked currently, with questions being raised as to the veracity of the tests. Many people have a steak in the final outcome but it can, at times, be difficult to determine on which side the bread is buttered for various parties. At this point though, it can easily be seen that Ricco is no longer the cupcake of the Italian cycling world. Fans are boiling mad, growing frustrated at a sport that has, at times, loafed around trying to corral the doping issue. One things for certain, when it comes to doping at the Tour de France, the plot thickens.

Ricco stole my marbles.

by crashdan on Jul 17, 2008 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't suppose there's a hope in hell that the doping control agent was named...

Riki Tiki Tavi…

Ricco stole my marbles.

by crashdan on Jul 17, 2008 7:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Did anyone see the Baden Cooke crash?

I heard about it and then thought about the timing and what someone had brought up previously. Are Barloworld riders taking a dive to avoid controls? It sounds a little out there, but stranger things have happened.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 17, 2008 8:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Yeah it's a bit OTT

to be faked. “Stomach virus/food poisoning” is so much less painful.

by Rothko on Jul 17, 2008 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Piepoli

Dans un communiqué, la Saunier Duval annonce avoir licencié Riccardo Ricco et Leonardo Piepoli pour violation du code éthique. Piepoli n’ayant pas été contrôlé positif sur le Tour, la suspicion d’un système plus ou moins organisé dans l’équipe grandit…

by lucybears on Jul 18, 2008 9:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Such a great accomplishment, to win stages in all three GTs. /sarcasm

I think he’s the biggest fraud of all: think about all the great riders he’s worked for, all the riders he’s beaten going up a mountain. What a joke it all was….

One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor. - George Carlin

by Ruthann on Jul 18, 2008 10:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs