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How do past performances translate to future success?

After many posts and some thinking, I decided to post a topic for the first time.  The question is: How do past  performances determine future success?

It's a simple enough question. So what do you all think? A few factors that must go into this are below, in no particular order.

 

1. Past performances in other grand tours. There is one grand tour winner amongst the favorites, Menchov. He won the Vuelta twice, which is a far cry from the Tour. How much credit does he get for winning the Vuelta and does it trump progression in the Tour?

2. Progression. Most of the favorites are the same from several Tours now and the only person who has consistently progressed is Evans. How much does his experience in the Tour and his ability to grind it out count towards winning the Tour.

3. Team. We know that CSC has a super strong team, just like they've had for several Tours now. How much does having a strong team mean if you haven't been able to finish it off in the past? This many very well be Sastre's last real chance to win the Tour before Riis promotes one of the Schlecks. Is his team strong enough to make up for his shortfalls?

4. Time trialling or climbing. Which is more valuable to a GC man? We saw that even in the Giro with the super hard climbs that TT ability trumped all the climbing ability of Ricco and co. How does that carry over to the Tour? History tells us that time triallists have won more often than climbers in recent times, What do you all think?

I myself tend to look at history and past performances and am curious as to what everyone else thinks.

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Those are four excellent indicators

The only one I would add is intelligence. One of the most impressive attributes of successful grand tour champions is their ability to see red, and back it down to yellow before blowing a gasket. We all love risk takers, but loss limiters are equally as important.

I think this will be a huge factor for CVV. It’s inevitable, in my opinion, that he is going to get dropped at least once over the next two stages. I love the guy as a rider, but I just don’t see how he can continue to match wits against some of the best climbers in the world. I think if he rides his race, and doesn’t worry about keeping up with the Joneses, he could be in position to take the bottom step of the podium with a great time trial.

by PopUp Rolen on Jul 20, 2008 9:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the intelligent post

I agree with you. Knowing how to ride within yourself and limiting your losses is the key to climbing well if you’re not a true climber.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 20, 2008 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Okay I'll bite

1. Winning a Grand Tour trumps losing a Grand Tour.

2. Evans is the only contender who has consistently gotten better. Last three years going back: 2nd, 4th, 8th.
(Kohl has only been in one Tour, last year, finishing 31st.)

To me this shows that Evans is consistently a threat and he’s gotten a little better each year. The question is does this progression mean that he’s bound to place higher than previously or that he’s bound to place high? I feel more comfortable with the later than the former. At this point in the Tour one can make the case that any of the top seven are bound to place very high and that two of them- Evans and Sastre in that order- have the best pedigree. In finishing high in the final Tour standings.

3.I would say that CSC has easily the strongest team this year by a wide margin and that wasn’t the case in previous years. Maybe only in 06 did they have the strongest team. They also have their strongest team compared to years past. They are also more focused on winning- by whomever- than before.

4. TTing is huge. Evans is the best and he should be better than the rest of the competitors with Menchov and CVV being the closest.

BUT you have to be careful here in projecting to the final Tour TT. Two years ago Evans beat Menchov in that last TT by 52 seconds. Evans beat Sastre by only a 1:01. The closeness between Evans and Menchov is not surprising but Sastre? Maybe the info we tell ourselves has been wrong when it comes to the final Tour days.

Then last year in the final TT (only) 20km in the Vuelta, Evans beat Sastre by only 22 seconds (and CVV tied Sastre). And Menchov beat Evans in that TT by 7 seconds.

What does this mean to me? I would place Evans as the favorite but only by a small margin over Menchov and CVV and Sastre are not that far behind- not when they have something to ride for. As for F Schleck and Kohl, they have never been put in the position of a possible Tour victory on the line though they have only a mediocre history of time trialing. But if any of his competitors is a minute+ on Evans before that TT than all bets are off.

The thing is the next two stages will introduce too many variables still. Menchov may crack. Or not. The sample size is too small to tell. And of course he’s the only one to close out a Grand Tour against among others Evans. Kohl? We are in totally uncharted territory here. CVV is like Kohl even though he’s been around. F Schleck is still kinda young and he was never in a position to win the Tour before. Evans and Sastre are the most known- but even here the Podium Cafe (and Bob Roll’s) wisdom on Sastre and time trialing is wrong.

We do know CSC will keep attacking. Who will wilt? My guess is that this year these next two stages will tell more than the final time trial. Its wide open at this point.

by ursula on Jul 20, 2008 9:26 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Past performance for Evans not good

The last time Evans was the clear cut favorite as the leader in a grand tour he lost over 20 minutes on a stage. That isn’t good. On the other hand, it was some years ago now. The tour is decided on time trials often, and thus he is still the one to beat. We will get attack after attack though which ought to be great.

by Markk on Jul 20, 2008 9:26 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

What you mean to say is

That the last time Evans was the clear cut favorite, not his last performance. Last year was his last performance and he came 2nd. Is that what you mean?

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 20, 2008 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A favourite!

No, I don’t think so. Just happened to have ridden very well and taken pink – but I don’t think he was ever a favourite. That was one great bonk though, probably even better than Jan in 1998.

by Rothko on Jul 20, 2008 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

to be fair

Evans was NOT the clear-cut favorite in the ‘02 Giro.

He had just switched over from dominating the MTB scene and was only expected to provide help for Garzelli. That got mucked up when Garzelli got popped for a minuscule amount of probenecid—one of the great unexplained doping offenses, right up there with Frigo’s getting popped for what turned out to be bags of saline solution, but I digress.

Evans surprised everyone by hanging on for a while, but if you ever go back and look at the footage of that stage, he looked like he was about to pass out for the whole kilo before he cracked. Really, just staying upright was a commendable feat given how deep into the hurt locker he put himself..

by R Mc on Jul 20, 2008 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Spun Out

I forgot to say that I very much like reading your analysis!

by ursula on Jul 20, 2008 9:56 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Thank you very much, I appreciate it!

Despite all the crap we all give each other, I wouldn’t bother if I didn’t think everyone here was intelligent and presented good point-counterpoint.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 20, 2008 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We see that Team can only get you so far

CSC have had two mountainstages that have been as near perfect as you can get teamtactics-wise. The result of those two days: approximately 2 min gain for Schleck and 48 sec fo Sastre. Not bad by any means but also not enough to really give them a shot at winning. Of course there are more days to come but they need even bigger efforts from Sastre/Schleck if they are to win.

by Jens on Jul 21, 2008 6:45 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Progression

you have to look pretty carefully at improved placings. At least as far as the Tour goes, Evans is moving up largely because of all the names that have been eliminated for reasons beyond his control. A better indicator might be, is he beating (Menchov) now when he used to lose to him? Is he +30” on a 50km ITT whereas he used to be + 3.30? Useful. But Cadel’s progress has to do with the top 5 from 2005 disappearing; the entire 2006 podium disappearing (except Pereiro, but he’s a support guy); and the rest of the 2007 podium disappearing.

Obviously the rest of your factors are THE factors in any analysis I’ve ever done. I was thinking, they’re good indicators of the future performance you can expect to see over time, but not necessarily in the instant race. Fact is, there are a zillion factors in any moment that can determine things. But of course, I’ve long since glossed over this, so I don’t have to write post after post about how I have no idea who’s going to win. Joe Morgan does this in baseball, and his rward is a website called Firejoemorgan.com.

"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."

by Chris... on Jul 21, 2008 10:18 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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