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Should doping be legalized? Discussion in "Le Monde"

French daily "Le Monde" has asked its readers if doping should simply be legalized.

Here are truncated translations of a few representative entries:

"Yes . . . Why criminalize a problem in the name of asinine purity and some sporting ideal dictated by people like Prudhomme who are self proclaimed censors instead of opening up a debate where medical questions could be debated and controlled instead of leaving it up to shady charlatans who administer dangerous drugs in the shadows."

"Doping could bring about serious harm to the riders, not to mention it wouldn't help the popularity of the sport."

"Yes. If everyone is on the juice, no one is."

"Yes. These activities (soccer, cycling, tennis) are there to help sponsors and organizers get rich just like in the days of gladiators when slaves were thrown to the lions to strengthen the power of the political class. In any case, the 'people' don't care if athletes are juiced, they want a spectacle and if there is blood, so much the better. So why so many scruples? The people want games, give them games and pull in as much cash as possible along the way."

"No. That would essentially force everyone, even those who currently don't dope, to take something thereby putting all the riders' health at risk."

The full discussion (and a cute cartoon depicting two competing soy beans[?]) can be found here: http://vidberg.blog.lemonde.fr/2008/07/20/faut-il-legaliser-le-dopage

 

Thanks to my colleague Scott for pointing this site out to me.

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I think a little therapeutic

-really - application of most of these drugs should be OK. If riding a GT makes you more anemic, it should be OK to take a little therapy. If you can recover better with a testosterone cream, why not?

Within the limits of what is healthy. You should not be allowed to take risks with your health. Just some agreed safe and therapeutic practices.

The search for purity is futile. An athletic contest is a measurement of some kind, but we’re not sure what. The best athlete? Then eliminate TTT, or even team tactics—make the whole tour a three week ITT. The best climber? Time trialer? The most courageous? Who knows what we’re measuring?

I could imagine some people wanting the contest to measure the athlete with the greatest natural ability. In that case we’d have to prohibit training.

You shouldn’t be able to raise your hematocrit to 60%, because that is dangerous. But if you’re interested in the “who’s the most courageous” measure, wouldn’t it make sense to level the playing field? Jon Vaughters supposedly had a naturually high hematocrit. What if Tommy Voekler’s is 40? Shouldn’t he get a handicap against JV?

BTW, I think it would be interesting to take JV’s hematocrit now, years after competition, and see just how natural his hc was back then.

by hughw on Jul 20, 2008 11:50 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Without getting in some kind of doping debate

I would just be concerned with my health if I were an athlete. Either you are or are not physiologically able to cope with a 3 week grand tour. If not, you shouldn’t be doing it. Doing drugs to make your body able to cope with it can’t be good. Not to mention, from a fans perspective, there’s nothing wrong with seeing athletes who are a special breed battle it out.

I would expect that you’re going to get a lot of negative reactions from others here on this site posting this kind of thing. If you were to read my rants, I’m generally one of those people. However, since this is an opinion thing, I won’t go off on a tangent. Cheating can be looked at in all kinds of ways. Even if everyone is on something, now you are pressuring those who don’t want to do it, to do it. That would be cheating that person out of their ability to be competitive if they didn’t want to use doping products.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 21, 2008 1:23 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"Without getting in some kind of doping debate?"

That’s kind of the topic?

Another thing we might be measuring in a bike race is a rider’s ability to ride despite any affliction. Here’s Vaughters in 2001 before he chose to take a shot of cortisone, and abandon the Tour:

Real bike racers woulda just spit some tobacco juice on it, I guess.

by hughw on Jul 21, 2008 1:49 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What a great way to bring in new sponsors.

It would be like watching the nightly news with all drug manufacturers names on the team kits. When the riders thanked their sponsors they would literally be thanking their sponsors.

I think I would lose interest though, I’d prefer to cheer for a human on a bike than the products that make one team less human than say an NFL player. And I’d prefer it if those drug companies were to focus more on preventing and curing serious diseases than worrying about how their guinea pigs perform in the Alps.

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana. - G. Marx

by flying dog on Jul 21, 2008 6:52 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

" . . . . Don't, criticize it. Legalized it, yea-ah yea-ah . . ."

I swear, I’m getting flashbacks of my college days . . . . .
While I devoutly agree that things should change, I really feel this is terrible idea.
That said, I do feel it is only slightly better then the scam the WADA, IOC, and UCI have been promoting as our current regulatory system.

by Ryan_Liles on Jul 21, 2008 8:14 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But if everyone's on EPO

...,to get an edge you’d have to take HGH
But if everyone’s on EPO and HGH, to get an edge you’d have to take steroids
But if everyone’s on EPO, HGH and Steroids, to get an edge you’d have to take XYZ.
And then Tommy Smith dies on the top of a mountain with a cocktail of brandy and amphetamines in his stomach.

Blame my wife!

by sir eccles on Jul 21, 2008 8:34 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

exactly

legalizing it and “regulating” it has the same enforcement problems as banning doping and fighting it. You still have to monitor riders to make sure they are taking a safe amount of EPO and Testosterone and HGH.

Also, obviously as pointed out above, you force everyone in the peloton to dope, even if they don’t want to.

My main objection to “legalized” doping is that doped racing is really dull. I am fairly sure that we’re seeing a clean tour this year, and it’s fantastic.

If you legalized doping, we’d return to the contest of robo climbers and who has the best prepatore. Just dull stuff.

by KevinK on Jul 21, 2008 11:00 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Trickle-down

Once “legalized’ it will be seen as legitimate. I think this would encourage younger riders to get on the juice. And who knows what the long-term health implications are.

I’m not a fan of any kind of legalization.

by johnw on Jul 21, 2008 1:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

legalizing it...

It would kill the sport…that’s for sure…as much as I love my sport I wouldn’t watch it anymore …then it would truly be like pro wrestling…riders would still up the ante on levels of doping deemed legal to get an edge of course…besides, racing, after a ten year hiatus, has finally become exciting again…anyone wonder why differ folks are winning differ races this year? Watching a guy like Gerrans take a big stage as he did yesterday wouldn’t be happening…if you are going to allow doping just go whole hog…put the cyclists on steroids, then put horses on them, throw in a couple of junked up cheetas and crystal methed out camels and have a Dr. Doolittle style super inter-breed race for the mega stash at the end of the hallucinatory rainbow…ratings would certainly go up…

by cash05458 on Jul 21, 2008 1:29 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ayup

But I wonder, does the article talk about permitting doping at the Tour, or just removing the criminal sanctions? I think criminalizing doping is a waste of precious resources for most countries, who have far more important matters. But letting drugs into the Tour? Or throughout cycling? I’d shut this site down.

"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."

by Chris... on Jul 21, 2008 2:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm absolutely in favor of decriminalising

There are, as you say, far more important things for countries to be doing with their law enforcement and legal systems.

I’d also be up for injecting a bit of sense into the rules (see JV above, and jae below, for all the reasoning required). I’ve entertained, at times, the idea of just requiring disclosure and letting it be a doping free for all. But that, of course, would just turn it into a Roman circus, with plenty of poor bastards willing to be put through the grinder for the entertainment of the masses, only to end up like ex pro football players and boxers (used up wrecks of human beings). So yeah, no.

by Sui Juris on Jul 21, 2008 4:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Also, there wouldn't be any more scandals.

HU??
I think the guy that wrote the article may be on the juice..

If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when are you going to have time to do it again?

by CannonDowell on Jul 21, 2008 1:56 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There’s “legalized” and there’s “legalized.” Tolerating some things does not mean tolerating everything, just as having ultra-light, ultra strong carbon composites doesn’t mean that there’s not restrictions on what you can and cannot do in building your bike.

What bothers me in all of the anti-doping regulation and enforcement is that it’s a top-down enforcement model seems to be flawed. It doesn’t work, and I doubt very much that the calls for more testing, for greater and greater burden of proof on the athletes to demonstrate they’re ‘clean’ will do anything more than escalate the arms race between testers and the tested. Whether legalized, or regulated at some level, what seems lost is that an essentially outside organization (e.g. WADA) has a top down prohibition model that puts them as separate from the athletes. It very much comes across as a “we know what’s best and we can do what we want to make you prove that you’re doing what we know is best.” I suspect that it sets up a fundamentally adversarial relationship between the overseers and competitors and that sort of situation does not have a stable equilibrium. Upping the number of blood draws and cups pissed into and creating ‘biological passports’ changes this.

It’s a guess, but I suspect that those presently cheating, in no small part see themselves as against something other than their actual competitors. (I have always found it interesting that professional golfers have been known to turn themselves in for rules violations.) Trying to put one over on the old men with funny hats who have dictated the rules to you likely seems different to competitors than violating something that their fellow athletes have come to consensus on what constitutes fair play. And athletes are, I suspect, much more in tune with who is and isn’t playing fairly and it fosters more of a community where playing fairly is important because you’re no longer ‘cheating WADA’ but cheating your fellow riders.

Will there be cheaters? Probably (though I suspect that there will be less). Will their be things that would be ‘legal’ that presently aren’t? Probably. Is some of it going to be more dangerous than abiding by strict prohibition? Maybe (but there’s inherent risk in most sport anyhow). But I would rather those taking the risks could talk about and decide for themselves where those lines should be drawn and be given the power to figure out how those lines would be enforced.

At any level of tolerance in the gray zone (and it is a gray zone—I do no think that there’s any standard logic that dictates what gets written down as ‘cheating’ and what doesn’t) I would much rather turning over the enforcement and overseeing to the athletes.

by jae on Jul 21, 2008 2:36 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Class antagonism

I agree there is a lot of us-the proletariat rider-against them-the bourgeois Tour bosses-going on with the doping issue. It’s similar to the problems seen in Major League Baseball where there has been a lot of mistrust between owners and players. For more on this history of this antagonism in the Tour, see an article I wrote last week on my blog .

Re golfers turning themselves in, this may have as much to do with the history of the sport (its upper class origins) as with the fact that players are involved in setting the rules. That said, I very much agree that the riders need to be taking the lead in setting up rules governing doping. They need to be their rules if there is any chance they will be respected.

by SportsAcademic on Jul 21, 2008 3:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Eventually, it might come to this

If the choice is the sport continuing as it is, or legalising doping, then I think I’d have to favour legalising doping. The sport is in a horrible situation, and if pretty much everyone good is doping anyway, we might as well bring it above board and stop banning all the stars.

The possibility that exists, that makes the current disasterous situation worth enduring, is that the testing might be starting to work and the peloton may be getting cleaner. I’d like to believe this is so, and I certainly don’t want to give up now.

But in 10 years, if nothing has changed, we still have to treat brilliant performances as evidence against the rider who achieves them, and half the stars are all banned, then it’ll be time to start thinking seriously about throwing in the towel and just letting the riders, and the doctors, just get on with it.

by William H on Jul 21, 2008 4:23 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It was legal... once...

Until 1965 in France, doping was technically legal, and it wasn’t banned in the Tour until several years after that. Granted, the kinds of drugs they have now are better at enhancing performance, but when it was okay to take them (a “free for all”), cyclists took as much as they could and they died young, sometimes during the Tour (Tom Simpson in 1967).

Even NASCAR, a border-line blood sport, requires restrictor plates and harnesses to keep their drivers safe. Doping policy is similar and should, with the cyclists’ accord, set healthy (but not unreasonable) limits.

by SportsAcademic on Jul 21, 2008 10:16 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

how is setting limits

any different than an outright ban?

The same enforcement mechanism is required.

by KevinK on Jul 22, 2008 11:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

limits

by limits I mean a guy with a bee sting in his eye should be allowed to get a shot of cortisone, for example.

by SportsAcademic on Jul 22, 2008 12:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

For that I totally agree.

There was no mistaking what he needed it for and there should be a way to allow it.

"The most wasted day is that in which we have not laughed."

by nikki on Jul 22, 2008 1:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That is a completly differant situation.

It was clearly recognized by the Medical car in that race JV had this issue, but there were, and are, limitations as to what that doctor can prescribe to the rider. Simply allowing the doctor in the medical car a greater freedom to manage the health of the athlete is completely unrelated with creating regulations on how much EPO, or whatever, a rider is allowed to use as there is no medical reason for the use of EPO to aid in the athletes health.

by Ryan_Liles on Jul 23, 2008 6:11 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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