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Evans vs. Sastre: Tale of the Tape

Letour-sq2_1__mediumThis unbelievable Tour de France is coming down to a two-man showdown for yellow, and one that promises to be historically close. On Saturday it will be Evans vs. Sastre for all the marbles... barring a strange event that sees one of them disappear or another rider from a crowded top ten somehow make the leap. Evans is virtually tied with the two riders separating him from Sastre: Frank Schleck and Bernhard Kohl. Evans should easily distance them -- possibly even passing both on the road -- and neither of them is likely to challenge Sastre, aside from Cadel of course.

Predicting who will win is dicey -- mostly you have to go on past performances, which are never perfect predictors but will have to do in the absence of data from future performances. But there are a few other things to think about WRT this matchup besides old times, and they're examined on the flip.

[Feel free to add any other relevant evidence; I'm sure I haven't thought of everything.]

Star-divide

Here's a table showing the last five performances by the two contenders in Tour de France time trials exceeding 50 kilometers. Numbers are their respective deficits from the winner, which neither of them has ever been. Yet.

 

EVANS

SASTRE

’05 St Etienne

+ 2.06

+ 3.10

’06 Rennes

+ 1.49

+ 2.10

’06 Montceau

+ 3.41

+ 4.42

’07 Albi

+ 1.14

+ 4.01

’07 Ang’leme

+ 0.51

+ 3.24

AVERAGE

+ 1.56

+ 3.29

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There you go.

The averages suggest a very close race, which means Sastre wins the Tour corrected: Evans wins by an average of 1.35... enough to win the Tour by a single second.. But they also vary pretty wildly, and in the most recent edition Evans crushed Sastre by over 2.30 each time -- more than enough to capture the booty. If you flipped the chart upside down, I'd say Sastre's time trialing was getting better, and he's home free. Does anyone remember why Sastre had such a lousy Tour last year? And why this year might not be the same?

Other Recent Time Trials

Sastre got killed by Evans in the Dauphine ITT, 3.32 behind Evans. In the Pais Vasco Sastre lost 1.43... in only 20km. Prologues aside, Evans hasn't finished worse than 11th in a time trial in two years. But Sastre's fitness and motivations can be pretty unknown outside the Tour, around which his season revolves. Meanwhile, in the first chrono of this Tour, Sastre dumped about 1.24 in 30km.

Course Details

Johan Bruyneel was just on Versus saying the course is somewhat hilly. Profiles are notoriously useless, but I suppose you can get a little sense:

Profile20_medium

Of course, Evans won't be hurt by the hills, but the CW is that Sastre would have been at a disadvantage over board-flat roads, so any incline or downhill is one more stretch where Evans doesn't have a huge advantage.

The course is somewhat SE>NW in orientation, except for the starting and finishing sections. This is significant, because it suggests that there could be a headwind... a problem for smaller climbers generally, and for making the course feel even longer and exaggerating the gaps. Current forecast is winds out of the NW at 7mph. Might get Evans a few seconds?

Motivations

Evans is primed to win, but Sastre is holding yellow. And as we all know, the yellow jersey tends to give the bearer a boost of adrenaline. Sastre has waited a long time for this day. He's got to be pumped. Same could be said of Evans too. Oh, and don't ask Laurent Fignon about this supposed boost. Didn't help him in '89.

Who's Got the Legs?

Final factor comes down to who's simply feeling better Saturday. Sastre should have recovered from his massive effort Wednesday. Sastre seems to have engineered a late peak. Evans, meanwhile, has looked fine throughout, but I don't think of him as better than he was when the Tour started.

Tale of the Tape:

Factors favoring Evans: recent time trials, recent TdF long time trials, wind direction.

Factors favoring Sastre: possibly fresher legs? hills on course, being in yellow (theoretically).

Others are a push. My pick? Carlos hangs on.

1 recs  |  Comment 153 comments

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Good summation, I hadn’t seen those earlier numbers recently. One other important advantage of the yellow jersey is starting order. Sastre will know where he needs to be on his time gaps and should better be able to mete out his effort.

by bryan_e on Jul 25, 2008 4:15 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Evans wins

He takes 2:30 from Sastre.

by Crazy D on Jul 25, 2008 6:48 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I see this as very likely

Not like I like likely but like like probable likely…

"I won! I won! I don't have to go to school anymore." -- Eddy Merckx, after winning his first bike race

by ELVISGOAT on Jul 25, 2008 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

(leaving room again)

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 25, 2008 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are the stats correct?

Shouldn’t Sastre be about +3.29?

by Sabino on Jul 25, 2008 6:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Fixed

I had the seconds correct but somehow still loused the minutes conversion thoroughly… Thanks

"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."

by Chris... on Jul 25, 2008 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't really see any rational factors in Carlos's favour

The smallest comparable gap occurred in -06 when Carlos was fighting for a podium place while Evans was i n no mans land without much room to move up or down on the GC. He needs to hope and pray that Evans has mechanical troubles or lands himself on the asphalt when trying too hard.

I could see Evans perhaps trying too set a hard pace early to scare the bejeezus out of Carlos on the early splits which could be a bit dangerous. Sastre can’t really get any advantage from going last, he will absolutely need to go flat out start to finish to have a chance.

by Jens on Jul 25, 2008 7:06 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Evans takes yellow into Paris with a 23 second gap.

Thus reversing last year’s loss. I think the headwinds will play a role. Evans can power through them, Sastre will be troubled by them just that little bit that makes the difference. If the weather reports are wrong and there is no headwind, then it will come down to a matter of a handful of seconds, but I still expect Evans to win. 53 Km is a long way, even if it is somewhat downhill.

by pigilito on Jul 25, 2008 7:07 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think Sastre can do it.

The man has been working and fighting for years to wear the Maillot Jaune.
Right now he’s got it, and once you consider his age there really may never be another chance for him in the future.
I’d say that guy is going to hammer beyond anything he has ever done before in his entire life and he is going to pull it off and Evans will become the new Ulrich/Beloki for the next couple years.

Oh and Chris, you forgot one variable; the DS.
I’d say Sastre has one of the best guys in his ear during the TT, and that may just be the little bit needed to get him across the line holding the lead (by .000025 secs).

by Ryan_Liles on Jul 25, 2008 7:32 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I hope you are right.

Cattle as the new Ulrich will be great. Esp. given his retro whiny paranoid Lemond tendencies.

"I won! I won! I don't have to go to school anymore." -- Eddy Merckx, after winning his first bike race

by ELVISGOAT on Jul 25, 2008 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know? He was a lot nicer when he was riding dirt.

Honest!
I mean, he has always been a prodigy from Oz, but when he was younger he seemed to really loved what he was doing so much more.
Neurotic yes, but still a nice guy.
I can hardly recognize him now; he is so much different then he was back then.

by Ryan_Liles on Jul 25, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's the pressure cooker

The other races this year, he raced out of his skin and won some good ones. But there didn’t seem to be any pressure on him to win then. He just won because he could, not because he had to.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Evans to win

...but I doubt he’ll catch Schleck and Kohl on the road like you suggest. Evans is fast but – unless he is lapping them – Schleck and Kohl will finish in the same way they started: behind him.

Indeed, it might even be an advantage to Sastre to have a couple of ‘bunnies’ up the road to set his sights on. He should out TT Schleck and having this rider ahead of him might give a real moving target for his legs to chase. Evans is chasing Menchov and VV and – even if he wins – is unlikely to catch either, IMHO.

by kisdm001 on Jul 25, 2008 8:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think Sastre can hang on

But it will be difficult. He has the advantage of knowing how fast he has to go.

He’s a master of economy and timing his form, so he’ll arrive in the starting house with the best chance of winning he will ever have. If he rides on the red line from start to finish, I don’t think Evans can take too much time from him.

by KevinK on Jul 25, 2008 8:28 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No way that Carlos maintains 1.34 over Evans over 50K+

Sastre’s TT might have gotten better, but so has Evans’. He is truly one of the elites these days. If he lost 1.24 in 30K when Evans wasn’t on form yet, he’s gonna lose big time in this TT. Of course Sastre wasn’t on form yet, but I still don’t see it. Also, if Fignon, a TT specialist couldn’t maintain his lead against Lemond over what, like 34K, while in the lead, there’s not much hope for Sastre. When he talks you don’t hear the voice of a confident leader. Also, Riis is already giving out the “well at least we tried” kind of interviews. No, Carlos will lose about 2.00 to Evans.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 8:54 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Interesting piece of logic.

Fignon, a TT specialist couldn’t maintain his lead against Lemond over what, like 34K, while in the lead, there’s not much hope for Sastre.[...]

Following this argument, Cavendish would not have won a single stage against Hushod.

Carlos can hang on.

by Chainring on Jul 25, 2008 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What?

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok... some more data for y'all to chew on...

... after looking this over, I’m not sure that we have a clue beyond “Cadel is better”. Sastre has always been behind Evans going into every ITT that they’ve showed up in during various Tours… and in 2007, Sastre was already 6 minutes back on Contador going into stage 19, so what’s the point of really grinding it out. Anyway… here’s the spreadsheet… it’s a graphic though, sorry… can’t build tables in comments that I can figure out…


Clickety pop for better resolution (I think)

Ricco stole my marbles.

by crashdan on Jul 25, 2008 10:42 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

that make 2:00 min look about right

"I won! I won! I don't have to go to school anymore." -- Eddy Merckx, after winning his first bike race

by ELVISGOAT on Jul 25, 2008 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rolling terrain => advantage Sastre

From the table you can see that flat and downhill have, in the past, benefited Cadel by more than 1:34.

On rolling terrain (tomorrow’s stage), Sastre has never lost more than 1:04.

Sastre takes the maillot jeune.

by Chainring on Jul 25, 2008 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You can always go by the numbers

and a lot of the time they’ll prove you out. This is one of those times that I’m going with a feeling that Sastre is fresher than Evans and will eek out enough time to keep the jersey.

But anyway you slice it the GC positions 1-6 should get yet another good scrambling after the stage. It’s really been a great tour for race fans.

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 25, 2008 11:15 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Strategery

Evans riding before Sastre makes for interesting strategy.

Should Evans come out hard and scare Sastre with impossible splits? Or should he just ride his own race and not play any head games?

by Softie on Jul 25, 2008 11:18 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

re: Evans and TT strategy

I’ve heard him say quite a few times in interviews that the only strategy for a TT is “start, ride as hard as you possibly can, finish” ...

by guidemd on Jul 25, 2008 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's the way I've always heard it described

Get up to speed straight away and maintain the fastest pace you can to the finish.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, a negative time split is always the best way to go.

this has been well documented in running, as well as cycling as being a far more effective method in achieving the fastest possible times.

by Ryan_Liles on Jul 25, 2008 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, but it's hard to keep enough in reserves

To finish faster on the return leg without keeping too much in reserves. If you don’t time in right, in the case of Cadel, you lose the Tour. While it may be correct, I’m sure than Cadel knows what he needs to do pretty well.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cadel has been doing TT's longer then most anyone in the Tour this year . . .

.. . they’re called mtb races!
Hahahaha!

He knows how to manage himself and has shown that for a long time.
That said, I still think Sastre is gonna win the overall.

by Ryan_Liles on Jul 25, 2008 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's exactly what MTB races are...

ITT’s

"I won! I won! I don't have to go to school anymore." -- Eddy Merckx, after winning his first bike race

by ELVISGOAT on Jul 25, 2008 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Sastre keeps the jersey

It will be one of the biggest upsets in quite some time, yellow jersey or not. Cadel’s time splits won’t help Carlos much because the pace Cadel will be maintaining will be a pace that a rider like Sastre would be motorpacing behind. If he does lose less than 1.34 it will be SO VERY CLOSE. Basically, Carlos will have to ride the TT of his life and then some.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 11:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yup

Carlos will be trying to ride his race, not Cadel’s. They will have crunched the numbers and figured out what pace he needs to maintain his lead and then try and stick to it. The ‘sticking to it’ will be the painful part.

Taking personality and previous history out of it, I will be fine with a win from either guy as I both think they’ve worked their nuts off to be in this position. Carlos has done a nice job of coming through when his team gave him the chance and Cadel has ridden as hard as possible for a guy with no team. He may not be the flashiest guy but what he’s done to stay close and cover so many attacks is the hardest thing a cyclist can do. You wouldn’t believe the physical toll it takes on you in even one race. Add up a few consecutive stages and it grows geometrically.

So whoever wins (even guys not named Carlos and Cadel) will have earned it in my book.

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 25, 2008 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right you are

If Evans wins, he needs to DEMAND that the team gets proper support riders. A rider of his stature and quality deserves that. No amount of money is worth riding for a complete sheit team like Lotto. I know they are a Belgian team and want notice in Belgium, but wouldn’t a yellow jersey get them TONS of notice? I think so. If Carlos wins, CSC will deserve it just as much as Evans will deserve it if he wins. Notice the differentiation.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Evans wins

won’t Lotto say, it ain’t broke? Gotta assume they’re still deeply interested in building more of a classics squad.

"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."

by Chris... on Jul 25, 2008 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe, but it might also mean that

Cadel’s contract gets bought out by somebody with a team. There’s no way that the DS of Lotto can possibly think that they have a team worth a damn. Hell, they can’t even win a classic!

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Where would be a good home for Cattle?

"I won! I won! I don't have to go to school anymore." -- Eddy Merckx, after winning his first bike race

by ELVISGOAT on Jul 25, 2008 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Columbia maybe? I don't know

Somewhere with a bunch of little Spanish guys that go uphill REALLY fast.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Scott

if they still exist. Got some salary freed up too.

"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."

by Chris... on Jul 25, 2008 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They don't have the best history with little climber guys

Not to mention, he needs to go somewhere where there are some English speakers. Rumor is that when he was on T-Mobile they didn’t understand his Aussie ways and thought he was weird. Go figure, they go to pot and he might be winning his first Tour. Karma’s a bitch.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

harhar

T-Mob… what a train wreck.

"I won! I won! I don't have to go to school anymore." -- Eddy Merckx, after winning his first bike race

by ELVISGOAT on Jul 25, 2008 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Little?

Sastre: 1.73 m, 61 kg
Evans: 1.74 m, 64 kg

BTW “little” riders can also time trial:

Levi Leipheimer: 1.7 m, 62 kg

by Chainring on Jul 25, 2008 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dude, what are you talking about?

Nobody ever said that little guys couldn’t time trial. I was talking about Cadel going to a team with little guys to help him in the mountains.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 26, 2008 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here's the thing

Their classics squad sucks too. So there motto is “How much money can we not spend to not win our most targeted races”. And if Carlos wins then Lotto would have succeeded spectacularly.

And if Evans wins I think he should demand even less support next year, just to show the rest of the peleton that he’s the strongest rider. Imagine if he shows up with himself and 8 guys to support the sprint? That would be awesome.

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 25, 2008 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That would be pretty awesome

Another awesome thing would be to leave RobbieMac at home and bring VdB next year. The way he rode in the Giro could definitely have helped Cadel in the Tour.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Robbie signs with someone else for next year

His days of Green are over and Lotto would probably like to fill his place with another Spring rider who can help Hoste for the first 50K of Flanders before dropping out and then riding a truly anonymous Tour.

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 25, 2008 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Carlos hangs on

That’s my pick.

Its interesting to see how across the board people are in these predictions, particularly in regards to Sastre. A bunch of us predict based more on who we like and that probably goes with the TV guys too.

Personally I think the numbers Chris posted above are skewed as IMO the difference between performing in the 1st TT and the last TT in the Tour is big. The last TT comes after three weeks of racing hard and with a win or high placing on the line- if the rider cares atthat point- and without the win many riders don’t. So for me including the 1st week TT is misleading. In fact I think 3rd week time trials of less than 50km are more relevant than 1st week TTs of any length.

by ursula on Jul 25, 2008 12:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

3rd

is definitely more representative, for a host of reasons.

"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."

by Chris... on Jul 25, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

True

However, as tired as a rider like Evans might be, Sastre has to be tired as well. Couple that with the fact that Cadel is a TT specialist and it actually adds to Cadel’s advantage. Then factor in the yellow jersey (which just allows Carlos to go last and get time checks) and the supposed wings that the maillot jaune gives its wearer and Cadel still looks better for the win. Maybe not a 3+ minute schelacking, but still the win. I wish there was a formula for that.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cycling

has no formulae. There’s power, road, winds, heat, and a few million more variables.

"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."

by Chris... on Jul 25, 2008 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well we know that but it would still be cool to have a formula

To factor in everything like fatigue, etc.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Now you're talking chaos theory

And we all know how predictable that is. What happens if just as Cadel starts a butterfly 20K up the road flaps it’s wings? This could have monumental reprecussions (sic).

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 25, 2008 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes the wind from the wing flap

Could spiral out of control tsunami style and wind up as a tornado by the time it hits Cadel.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sporza asks "insiders" for their picks

http://www.sporza.be/cm/sporza.be/wielrennen/Tour_2008/verslagen_2008/1.346974

even though it’s in Dutch, it’s pretty easy to figure out … 11/16 pick Evans to win, 1 pick for Menchov (from his teammate Tankink, by 1 sec), 4 pick Sastre (including the *Lotto team owner, always great for one’s confidence eh? also Frankie A, the CSC doctor, and ex-pro G.Solleveld). The biggest gap is predicted by Evans’ bodyguard at 53 sec, the closest is Rabo’s PR guy at 0.5 sec.

by guidemd on Jul 25, 2008 2:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Did you say that CSC's doctor is predicting a win by Carlos?

That doesn’t sound too good if you know what I’m saying. I think maybe he should have refused to answer that one, might not look good (just kidding, or am I?)

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the original lists him as "arts CSC"

which Google translates as “CSC doctor” ... hadn’t thought of it like that though, perhaps he shouldn’t have commented ;-)

by guidemd on Jul 25, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe the sponsor of Lotto shouldn't have spoken either

Being that it is a PHARMACEUTICAL company. Especially when he too is predicting a Sastre win. Yikes!

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

McEwen seems to have no doubts

http://tdf.sbs.com.au/tdf2008/ – click on “Stage 18 Robbie McEwen rates Cadel” (it’s a pre-stage interview)

McEwen “if they (CSC) don’t do anything in the next 2 days, then they’ve ridden themselves into a bit of a corner, and they’ll be crapping themselves about the time trial on Saturday”

by guidemd on Jul 25, 2008 2:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Robbie needs his own TV show

Maybe we can pair him and Jens!, make them next door neighbors or something.

"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."

by Chris... on Jul 25, 2008 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"One of them loves riding hard for 200 kilometers.

The other loves to ride hard for 200 meters. Together – they’re the Odd Couple (of Cycling)!”

There are so many ways we could go here.

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 25, 2008 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Please Hollywood

This has to happen.

"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."

by Chris... on Jul 25, 2008 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That would be so damn funny

Jens could tell Robbie about how his spring is tightly coiled ready to explode and Robbie could give him that wtf look as he turns around to go back in the house, feeling completely violated.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, Jens=Jens!

Won’t happen again.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

When they go on rides together

Robbie sits on all day and sprints for all the town limit signs… Jens! gets increasingly pissed but continues to pound away while screaming at Robbie who continues to sit on his wheel…

"I won! I won! I don't have to go to school anymore." -- Eddy Merckx, after winning his first bike race

by ELVISGOAT on Jul 25, 2008 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That would be funny for sure

But as soon as the first little hill came into view, Jens! would just dump Robbie and TT home.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well..

there’s that…

"I won! I won! I don't have to go to school anymore." -- Eddy Merckx, after winning his first bike race

by ELVISGOAT on Jul 25, 2008 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And the next day

they do it all again exactly the same way.

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 25, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll bite.

Since I stuck my neck out on an earlier thread in which I stated whoever had Yellow after leaving the Alps would win, I’ll stick to my guns and go with Sastre for the win. As good as Evans may be against the clock, I don’t think there is any way to quantify the transformative power of wearing that jersey. Carlos starts last, and he’ll know exactly how hard he must ride; it will be damn close, but I’m guessing he ‘ll pull it off.

by The Team Chef on Jul 25, 2008 2:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Just don’t tell that to Fignon. He’s the one negative example.

"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."

by Chris... on Jul 25, 2008 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

And he actually could ride a good TT. Carlos, not so much. I don’t know if the MJ will help him that much.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I need to support Carlos a little here...

He’s not the top TT’r but the man CAN TT. He doesn’t suck at it.
Add a determination to leave it all out there, and I believe (and I’m hoping) that he can keep it.

"The most wasted day is that in which we have not laughed."

by nikki on Jul 25, 2008 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Compared to the other climbey guys he can TT but we're comparing him to

One of the specialists here, not Andy Schleck. Rest assured, as determined as he might be, so is Cadel.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes I agree with you

that the “Sastre’s prepared for this for so and so long…” is bs. It’s not like Cadel has been sitting on a beach dreaming of becoming the fourth member of the BeeGees these last years. I imagine he’s been gearing up for this moment too.

by Jens on Jul 25, 2008 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am just trying to support Carlos in that it's possible.

I think it will take the ride of his life to keep yellow but I still believe he has a shot.

I am also cheering for C to have the ride of his life as well. I think the podium is a long shot but I believe there’s that slight chance. So much can happen in a TT. Mechanicals. Spills. Bad Days. But then GREAT DAYS too!!!

I’m super excited for it and for just personal fun fanship – I hope Carlos hangs on and C pedals up to 3rd!!!

"The most wasted day is that in which we have not laughed."

by nikki on Jul 25, 2008 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm with you on C and I do like Carlos

I just hate to see a guy lose a Tour that he should win because of a crap team. Nothing against Carlos, but CSC will be the true winners of the Tour if they win. But if Evans wins, it will pretty much be his victory alone.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

should win?

The only rider that should win a tour is the rider that wins the tour, and whoever that is major kudos.

by lyne on Jul 25, 2008 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1 :-)

I like Carlos but I will not be jeering anyone who wins this Tour this year.
Best Tour watching in a very long time and I’m happy for them all!!! Great stuff!

"The most wasted day is that in which we have not laughed."

by nikki on Jul 25, 2008 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Obviously you're missing the point, so don't bother responding

If Cadel loses this Tour, a good bit of that will be because of his team. Don’t respond just to be a smart ass. I was responding to Nikki, not you.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

so sorry to be butting in your private conversation on a public website

and obviously my feeble brain didn’t get your subtle point that Cadel should win.

but one thing I do get is your lack of politeness. you should try it some times.

by lyne on Jul 25, 2008 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I will be polite when warranted

Your question came off as a bit of a smart ass question. When questions are posed in that manner, the response that I gave is the one that you will get. If you weren’t being a smart ass, I apologize but if you were, well then the response stands.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jim -

I think I can speak for at least a few here…
Politeness goes a LONG way. This is a pretty happy go lucky place for most of us and we like it so much because we respect each other. We all have our favorites and opinions and many of us give each a heap loads of shit but we don’t make it personal. I think many of us want to hear your opinions but you’re turning us off – at least me – by being rude and making your digs personal.

I think it was even you that commented on media being polite to the riders. Well how about you being a little bit more polite to the really great people here at the Cafe? Many of them do amazing work at bringing us stories, pictures, and news. They deserve some respect.

You’re going to be you but I personally think you’re ruining a fun place at times with the personal digs and insults. I am interested in what you have to say but once you become rude, I quit reading.

"The most wasted day is that in which we have not laughed."

by nikki on Jul 26, 2008 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My digs are not personal and not intended to be

I responded to what I believed to be a question posed in an uncalled for manner. I’m sorry if I come off that way or if you or Lyne are taking it that way. That’s what I was trying to say in my response to Lyne. It said exactly that, but I can come off a bit harsh. That’s a critique that I’ve received before but that’s not really my M.O. Again I am sorry.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 26, 2008 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I will be rooting for CVV, Millar, and Pate the whole time

I bet they could all three go top 10. That would be sweet!

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That would be awesome!

VS is supposed to be in car with C’s ride tomorrow. I was hoping C’s dad would be there and now with a camara too.. I’m already laughing. (John gets “animated” during C’s rides and it’s an awesome sight!)

"The most wasted day is that in which we have not laughed."

by nikki on Jul 25, 2008 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Poor Fignon.

I actually think Fignon’s effort in that final TT was worthy of the win. Had he used aero bars, I’m not sure Lemond would have won that Tour. I’m not begrudging Greg the win, as he is one of my all time favorites, but Larry did put in the TT of his life. Unfortunately, it’s his ass whipping we’ll always remember, even though he turned himself inside-out to win.

by The Team Chef on Jul 25, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1, ROFLMAO at the "his ass whipping" comment

Funny stuff.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll always love Fignon

It was the flapping ponytail that did him in. But he won the Tour twice, was nicknamed The Professor, and was hated by the French press and constantly fought with them. What’s not to love?

Had he not been plagued by knee injuries he might well have won another Tour.

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 25, 2008 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

True, he had style, if that's what it's called

I hear that Lemond and Fignon are friends and go golfing when Greg is in Paris, but never talk about that dark day. I wonder why?

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing much to talk about.

I’ve seen Fignon interviewed about it that Tour in general. I believe the stage or two stages before the TT was an uphill mt. top finish in which Fignon attacked Lemond and Delgado to get away and take the stage and the win. He said when he attacked he couldn’t open up more time between them because he was going into a headwind, and 25 seconds was all he could get. He said he did his best and it just wasn’t enough, but no hard feelings.

He struck me as very classy in defeat.

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 25, 2008 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

'89

Boy did Fignon attack a lot. Can’t totally fault LeMond, seeing as how he didn’t have a team. But picking the moral victor is hard.

"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."

by Chris... on Jul 25, 2008 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fignon, part deux

‘89 was not the first time The Professor got burned in a final Grand Tour TT. It happened in the ‘84 Giro when Moser used all the latest aerodynamic advantages to claim victory in the final stage (along with a tailwind created by a following helicopter). Fignon lost that Giro by only 1:03, but the lesson he learned obviously didn’t stick..

by The Team Chef on Jul 25, 2008 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The finish we remember

but the whole race was a three way see-saw battle with Mr Whiny Paranoia, Le Prof and The Special Spanish Masking Agent. It was riveting stuff, one would be flying one day and then crumpled the next only to rise again and dish out another “Ass whuppin’” to the other two.

I look back in awe of that scenario now…

"I won! I won! I don't have to go to school anymore." -- Eddy Merckx, after winning his first bike race

by ELVISGOAT on Jul 25, 2008 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The good old days.

It’s too bad that Roche never recovered from his injuries; he would have certainly added another dimension to that epic battle.

by The Team Chef on Jul 25, 2008 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's easy to attack when you have a team

That’s the part about Cadel that so many are missing. Let me see them race by themselves and attack a team and see how far they get. Like Lemond, if Cadel wins this, it will be because he was the best and nothing to do with his team.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sastre will definetely know how fast he has to ride

but the question is, can he ride that fast.

"I won! I won! I don't have to go to school anymore." -- Eddy Merckx, after winning his first bike race

by ELVISGOAT on Jul 25, 2008 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

okay the cold hard numbers do give the advantage to Evans but

there is a lot more to racing than just the numbers, thank goodness because it would be boring if outcomes could be predicted. So I’m going with the untangible and picking Sastre – why?

But I won’t begrudge Evans if he does pick up the yellow jersey.

And I hope the CVV has the TT of his life too.

by lyne on Jul 25, 2008 2:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

doh why?

because I like that little Spaniard.

by lyne on Jul 25, 2008 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

"I won! I won! I don't have to go to school anymore." -- Eddy Merckx, after winning his first bike race

by ELVISGOAT on Jul 25, 2008 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"I don't have to understand the computer Bjarne. It's smarter than me"

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 25, 2008 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i so heart carlos

what the fuck do you want me to do? either ride the bike or don’t ride the bike. so priceless.

his press comments today were funny too, in that dry deadpan sastre sort of way. “it will be necessary to suffer very much.” he also said he was tranquilo and not overly stressed about the crono. he said he’d just ride with everything and do his best. hopefully, he’s not too tranquilo ;-)

by gavia on Jul 25, 2008 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

I get the feeling if one understood spanish fluently he’d be an amazingly funny guy. Even in limited English he comes across funny.

Love the Bjarne quote. It always makes me laugh.

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 25, 2008 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i think he's hysterical

so understated.

and yeah, bjarne freakin’ in the car was so funny. one of my fave parts

by gavia on Jul 25, 2008 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He just gets so exasperated

Like when he yells at Basso to move to the front of the group when it’s splitting in the headwinds – “Basso move the fuck up!”

And his whole pleasure pain experience with Jens!

“What he did today was not right. That boy is nuts”

“Well, wherever he’s going he’s in one hell of a hurry.”

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 25, 2008 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yep

I’d love to spend a day in the car at a race with that guy. I’d probably wet myself laughing. Kills me.

by gavia on Jul 25, 2008 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Bjarne wants to raise money

he should auction that option off. If I were rich enough I’d pay $500K (or more) for a day in the team car. Easily.

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 25, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sigh...

not that i would ever have that kind of cash.

he’d just have to offer out of the goodness of his heart ;-)

by gavia on Jul 25, 2008 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, not the tranquilo comment again!

My stomach churns when I hear that. Stealing a line from somebody else here, but I hope he didn’t crap his pants a little bit when he said he was tranquilo.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The should fly Jacob Piil in overnight

so he and Carlos could psych out Evans with the bit they did on Hincapie:

- “So Robbie, what do you think of the race?”
- “I’m not Robbie , I’m Cadel.”
-” Ok Robbie, so what do you think…..”

by Jens on Jul 25, 2008 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My other favorite bit :-)

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 25, 2008 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Watching them laugh about it was the best part!

"The most wasted day is that in which we have not laughed."

by nikki on Jul 25, 2008 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Paris

So if Evans is ahead by say just 1 to 2 seconds, any chance we could see CSC doing a TTT into Paris :) now that would be fun.

by kimchi on Jul 25, 2008 2:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It might be fun but it's also flat

I don’t see a Belgian team letting a team like CSC ditch one of their riders on the flats. Not to mention, that would be as unsportsmanlike as you could get. I think Robbie would probably go looking for a certain Spaniard in the showers afterwards to boot.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unlikely, but not unsportsmanlike

I agree that it’s highly unlikely that CSC and Sastre could take even one second from Evans on Sunday.

I don’t agree, however, that it would be unsportsmanlike for a rider - Sastre, Evans, or whoever - who is a second or two out of yellow to try to take that time back on Sunday. The last day of the Tour is Sunday, not Saturday. The ride into Paris has in recent years generally been a victory parade with no effect on the GC, but that’s because the time gaps between first and second made a Sunday attack pointless. If any rider is within a second of two of the leader after the time trial, and doesn’t try something on Sunday, I’d be disappointed.

by Tifosa on Jul 25, 2008 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Totally

Look at Hinault – he broke away on the Champs stage (while wearing Yellow) to get the win. That guy never gave up.

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 25, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He was already in yellow

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

The lack of bonus seconds would make it even less likely to work this year though.

by Jens on Jul 25, 2008 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ask Levi about Vino's last day efforts...

I forget the year, maybe 2005? but didn’t Vinokourov bump Levi down a spot, out of the top 5, by scoring bonus time in the final Sprint one year? In fact I think that he even won the stage?

by muk on Jul 25, 2008 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes he did

What made it so bad was that there was confusion about whether there were bonus seconds on offer. They were told there wasn’t and then later, after it was too late, they found out that there were.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was raining

when the peloton came onto the Champs Elysses, and the race organizers announced that no time bonuses would be on offer because of the slickness of the cobbles. Later on in the stage it dried out and they announced that they would award the time bonuses, not everyone got the message and Levi lost out.

by bethie on Jul 25, 2008 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right, now I remember

Thanks for the reminder.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

See it how you will but aside from minor placings and stage winners

I think that it is bad form to attack the yellow jersey during his “victory lap”. But it doesn’t really matter because there is no effin’ wait that this going to happen.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

For what it's worth

Cadel certainly didn’t rule out attacking on the last day of the race last year when he behind Contador – not that Cadel ended up attacking , or that Disco wouldn’t have handled it if he tried.

by Katiek on Jul 25, 2008 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd love to see it

but they have the wrong guy. CSC can do whatever they want but no way does Sastre ride Evans off his wheel on the flats.

"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."

by Chris... on Jul 25, 2008 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+100

Time triallists tend to be pretty strong on the flats.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This could be the year

that no time bonuses for the intermediate sprints really come into play. Imagine Evans wins tomorrow by 1 second…....how big would those hot spot sprints (6,4 and 2 seconds) look if they were in?

That being said, I’m glad there are no time bonuses available on any stages. I never much liked them.

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 25, 2008 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

other way around...

So could it work the other way around with Evans getting back a couple more seconds on Sastre? Canc and Jens! unlikely to let that happen…

by kimchi on Jul 25, 2008 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Team Silence Lotto to change name

Team Silence-Lotto has announced that it is changing name to “Evans-Lotto.” Studies conducted during the development of the 2008 version of the Tour de France have determined that the incredible boring performance by Evans is 50% more effective in putting people to sleep than the sponsoring drug “Silence.”

Silence-Lotto officials were very excited about their new product: 2008 TdF videos featuring the Australian rider.

“We lost the 2008 Tour by 5 seconds to Sastre but we are very happy with the response we received from the fans which prompted the launch of this innovative new product to battle insomnia.”

Cadel expressed disappointment after losing the yellow jersey during the last time trial but was very happy at the prospect of great profits coming from sales of his his videos worldwide.

The “Silence” product will no longer be available as of July 26th, 2008.

by Chainring on Jul 25, 2008 4:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I thought Silence was the name of his 7 support riders

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 25, 2008 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So I'm guessing you don't like Evans?

Just a hunch.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's

+1 for you, and

by Sui Juris on Jul 25, 2008 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What about the mental factor?

Cadel hasn’t exactly looked like a well balanced individual lately. Either it’s a sign that he is superfocused on the job, and he has been getting the job done admirably sofar, or he is coming apart at the seams. Many commentators have been pointing to him looking less and less on top of things.

At the start of the Tour he looked almost Lance-like in his cofidence and composure but thats not the guy we 're seeing now.

by Jens on Jul 25, 2008 5:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

the last part should read:

At the start of the Tour he looked almost Lance-like in his cofidence and composure but that’s not really the same guy we’re seing now, is it?

by Jens on Jul 25, 2008 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The difference as we all know is that Lance actually had a team, so he didn't have to

Chase EVERYTHING down himself. I don’t think that any of that will come into play tomorrow. There’s no body else’s team to worry about, just a little Spanish guy whose legs he has to rip off.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

With Lance'like I meant mentally

He always appeared outward as he was on top of everything and everybody. The only time the facade crumbled was in -03 and then everyone smelled blood in the water. Cadel looked like that in the first week.

by Jens on Jul 25, 2008 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure much of that was a facade

Seems to me that Evans needs some lessons on how to manage himself in the public eye and how to hide that he’s hurting. He has the legs, just not the savvy of a guy like Lance. Oh yeah, he also didn’t have the EP Oh wait a minute, don’t want to wind up face down in a ditch somewhere.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

imagine the two nights, Carlos and Cadel

Carlos totally relaxed. Maybe watches some TV. Chats with family. Turns in early for bed. Sleeps soundly.

Cadel, completely wired, pacing the room, chewing his fist. Climbs into bed thinking “I need to sleep”. Stares at ceiling all night.

by KevinK on Jul 25, 2008 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why would either relax?

Cadel has to beat Sastre and Sastre has to survive the TT. I wouldn’t want to be either.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just a kicker...

But we almost ALL assumed Tony would win the first TT. Off days happen to the best of them.

"The most wasted day is that in which we have not laughed."

by nikki on Jul 25, 2008 5:36 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You know to me

Tony wasn’t my pick for the win of the first TT. Millar was. Cancellara mostly wins prologues. Against guys like Millar and Evans, he doesn’t have the best record. I think his WC jersey skews peoples’ views of his TT abilities.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 25, 2008 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

for who don't saw

Chris Carmichael made a good preview for ITT tomorrow:

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=6137&status=True

you too Chris, if this one second is really, than i bet in Sastre because of the little hilly ITT.

No…i don’t know anymore, lol. Sometimes riders fly with the yellow, but Evans shows that are a intelligent rider, perhaps the most, will see tomorrow

by semprenaroda on Jul 25, 2008 9:31 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

History proves Carmichael right

there are a few things working in Sastre’s favor. Stage 20 is not a pancake-flat time trial. Many of the best >time trial riders are able to go fastest when they can maintain a very high and steady pace. Rolling hills can >disrupt a rider’s rhythm and make it difficult to stay at his highest speed. If Evans struggles with the >undulations on the course and Sastre is able to attack those small rises, he may be able to maintain >enough of his current lead to hang on the yellow jersey.

Evans has never taken more than 1:04 on Sastre on a long TT with rolling hills.

by Chainring on Jul 25, 2008 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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