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Super-Besse! How's It Gonna Play Out?

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Stage Six- Alright!

Super-Besse 

Images and quote from CyclingFever.  Thanks!

Its been a most interesting Tour and its (possibly) about to get even more interesting with stage six and the final climb to Super-Besse. After witnessing a couple stages with small climbs that selected out the die-on-any-hill sprinters, we now get a stage with a mid-course cat 2 climb and another cat-2 final climb that will remove any doubts that the winner here is an all-rounder or climby specialist:

...not the most difficult climb, but one of the second category. The statistics say it’s a climb of eleven kilometres at 4.7 percent. The side that the riders climb today, from Lomprat, is more difficult than the better known side that starts in Besse en Chandesse.

From Lomprat the first four kilometres of the climb have an average of 4.9 percent. When at seven kilometres from the finish Besse et St-Anastainse is reached, the riders will pass through the town with a percentage that should be about 6.2 percent (the profile published by ASO is not correct, I guessed it’s an altitude difference of 116 metres in 1850 metres). The road rises until 3.7 kilometres from the finish line, where a short plateau and descent follows. With some more guessing it goes from 1080 metres to 1200 metres over 1.45 kilometres (another 150 metres in kilometre 5 from the line until 3.7 kilometres from the line is 1450 metres), which gives it an average of 8.3 percent.

The riders had a short opportunity to catch their breath, before they have to attack the last 2000 metres of the stage. This is the most difficult part of the climb. The second last kilometre has an average of four percent and a little math learns us that the last kilometre should have an average of 8.4 percent. The profile published by ASO however tells us the last 1.5 kilometres have an average of ten percent. That leaves us guessing and confused, but I tend to believe more in math than in the profile of the ASO.

Finish_medium 

So what's gonna happen?  There are a few scenerios I can imagine:

1) Conservative. Yeah the flatlanders will get weeded out but all the rest will eye each other too closely and decide that this isn't a day to attack- especially the GC hopefulls. Oh there will be an exciting finish but a bunch sprint amoung the non-sprinters is not all that exciting: like seeing Mark Cavendish in slo-mo.

2) Breakaway of the unimportant riders. There are various all-rounders in the field (I'm looking at YOU Jens!) who have no GC aspirations who might take a flyer here. Guys like Pozzatto perhaps or Hincapie who could stay away. Current yellow jersey guy Schumacher could will contest here. As long as no GC threat goes with them all is cool and those guys all ride across the finish together- or close to it with no big time gaps.  Think Bosisio from the Giro, or Gerdemann from stage 7 last year. What might be interesting here is if any of the most climby of the sprinters (Freire and maybe someone else) can hang.

3) Release hell. I think its a given that the Pozzattos and Schumachers will contest this stage. But if a GC guy goes though things could get hairy. More time gaps will appear. Kirchen has already said he's going on this stage; it fits him well I think. Evans is no slouch in these type of hills either.  Ricco, both Schlecks, Valverde... there's several GC guys who could bolt. The question will be if they can open up a minute on their rivals or will they neutralize each other.  It could also be interesting to see the teams play this out: who helps whom. It will also be interesting to see who is realy thought of as a GC threat. For instance, is Kirchen regarded as a true threat by Evans?

Or something entirely different might happen.  What do you think?  

2 recs | Comment 54 comments

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I don't think this is hard enough to make a big difference

I think that this is pretty much just an ant hill for the GC types. Without time bonuses, there won’t me much in the way of gaps between the favorites. I bet that Jens! goes and Millar goes with him. But if it comes back together, Valverde, Kirchen, etc. will give it a go.I don’t think that Cadel will care. I think he’ll stay close and not worry about the stage win. At this point, he doesn’t want the yellow and a stage win isn’t on his agenda at this point. I look for him to care about the long ITT at the end to put the wood to everyone. This won’t decide anything really, just a chance for a punchy climber to win a stage.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 9, 2008 5:06 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Recipe for losing

If what you say happens Evans wins the Tour easy. To win, Kirchen, Valverde, everybody else except maybe Menchov and Sastre have to become DiLuca’s. That is, they have got to attack tomorrow, and on every other intermedidiate climb, getting 20 seconds here or there. They will never win otherwise. They probably won’t win anyway, but their best chance is to attack. I’ll go out on a limb and say if Evans doesn’t attack himself tomorrow he loses at least a half minute to several other contenders. The fact that Evens knows that barring disaster he’s not losing minutes means he will lets half minutes or 45s go and the other guys need every second.

I actually think the tour somewhat failed so far in its plan in that the lead TT guy is ahead of all the other contenders (ok Kirchen, and he could be the DiLuca of this tour, ) by significant amounts instead of being even or behind. I think Cunego, Sastre and Valverde did a really crappy TT – no way should they be losing a minute in 30K with a tailwind the last 10. Having a day to think about it it was quite a disappointment. Except for Evans of course!

by Markk on Jul 9, 2008 6:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes except that

Evans isn’t going to give away 30-45 secs here and there. He’s going to save his strength for when it matters, the high mountains. He will save every ounce of energy he can there and limit his losses. He’s a smart bike rider. He’s got a huge engine and knows when to fire it up. He’s good as limiting losses and clawing his way back. With an obviously less doped peloton this year, he has every reason to be confident. Look at his riding this year. He looks like he’s attacking more, but that’s only because it’s easier to stay with everyone else when they aren’t doped to the gills. I say that he watches the group and only matches the accelerations that he needs to. Give Valverde or Kirchen a stage. A yellow jersey is greater than the sum of the parts for damn sure.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 9, 2008 6:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Few things

First, thank god you did this; I’d been agonizing over the lack of a Super-Besse post while I did data entry.

Second, I think it’s pretty obvious that this is a stage to hunt for stage wins and a few seconds, at most. Nobody important will get shelled. Maybe Ricco can start climbing back into the White Jersey. Also, that’s a decent amount of KOM points, so you can expect that battle to kick off.

I’d say either Kirchen in more of a climbers’ bunch sprint, or maybe Jens! on a longer move, which could even get him into yellow, except Schumacher would probably hunt him down. Cunego, Ricco and Valverde are all superior closers than Kirchen, but I think the latter will be more motivated, unless Ricco goes KOM hunting.

"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."

by Chris... on Jul 9, 2008 5:14 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but...

Ricco doesn’t like white ;-)

kidding, kidding. I’m looking forward to this one!

by gavia on Jul 9, 2008 5:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Normally I would say yes

But his sprint against Hushovd showed crazy closing speed. I think positioning will be key with him.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 9, 2008 5:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Breaks

it will be interesting to see if they let Millar get a gap. But I think Columbia will turn itself inside out to get Kirchen into yellow/green. I really looks like Thor is going to have unexpected competition for the green jersey.

by Hons on Jul 9, 2008 5:17 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yep KOM hunters will be coming out in earnest

curious to see what DiGregorio does on this one.

by lyne on Jul 9, 2008 5:20 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

This is what I invested in DiGreg for right here… stage like this (4catagorized climbs) he should strike if he wants to take TV out of the Dot Jersey.

"I won! I won! I don't have to go to school anymore." -- Eddy Merckx, after winning his first bike race

by ELVISGOAT on Jul 9, 2008 8:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have no clue

but if some team is interested in leaving a small field we could see some surprises.

by King of Doping on Jul 9, 2008 5:23 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed

There’s plenty of road there for trouble-making, if someone has the interest. Good day for a Jens! escape, though I’m not sure it will be allowed ;-)

by gavia on Jul 9, 2008 5:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it could be a stage for tough guys!

but the mountains competition guys will wait for the first Pyrenees stage. Di Gregorio, Piepoli, Moreau, Chavanel, Voeckler?

by King of Doping on Jul 9, 2008 5:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed

The KOM kids probably won’t go on any long escapes – though really, I haven’t done the math on this stage. But that final climb is hard enough to suit a good climber. It looks like a great stage for a classics type rider. A stage that Cunego could win, if wanted to show his hand early. Good finish for Valverde too. Interesting to see who rides – whether the break sticks or a team decides to drill it. It’s a good stage for a strong team to turn the screws, like say, CSC, but it maybe be too early in the race for anyone to play especially aggressively.

LOL, I’m glad ursula wrote the preview on this one – I really can’t imagine what the kids will do with this. Only that it should be fun watching!

by gavia on Jul 9, 2008 5:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agree with the sentiment of this string of comments

I think you are going to see all the teams with no real GC hopes try to blow this race apart knowing that this is as good as opportunity as ever to grab the yellow jersey temporarily. The questions is, in my opinion, is what does Cadel do? Who does he mark and who does he let go up the road. I think it will be a very nervous stage for Silence Lotto trying to figure out who they can let get away, and how far they can let them go.

If I’m CSC Sexy Back, I’m bringing out the doublemint Schlecks to wreak havoc on the first cat. 2 and then sitting sastre on Evans wheel. If Evans chases then maybe sastre can attack on the second climb and take back the time he lost in the time trial. If Evans sits back, then you have both schlecks bust ass to the finish line and see how much time they can gain.

by PopUp Rolen on Jul 9, 2008 5:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Interesting

I think a stage like this suits Cadel as well as anyone. I don’t see Popo letting anyone get too far away. I think Evans marks Sastre and lets the others go. I’m sure that Evans isn’t really too afraid of many in the Tour. Realistically, he knows what he can do and that he is the one that everyone else needs to worry about. He’s got the biggest !@#$ in town this year and he knows it. He knows that all he has to do is stay relatively close. Also, since he’s coming on form, he will be able to stay with almost anyone on a classics type course like this and maybe even put in a dig of his own if he feels like it. And with no time bonuses, there won’t be much in the way of gaps. I think Evans and co. have a good idea of what they want to do and who to follow. He’s a savvy, experienced bike rider. If Levi and Contador couldn’t break him down last year, I doubt this year’s group of riders can.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 9, 2008 6:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cadel will have issues tomorrow.

He’ll do fine, personally. But his team is going to get shelled. Sexy Back, CDE, Columbia, and Euskaltel will try to send their 2s and 3s up the road, while teams like SDV and Liquigas may send their aces.

The other teams will force Lotto to drive and control the peloton, which they have never had to do before. Popo’s talent is wasted if he is asked to do that, and he doesn’t start GTs well anyway.

We’ll see soon what VanSummeren, Cioni, Brandt, and Aerts have to offer. They’re not bad; maybe they’ll surprise me.

by Mr 60 Percent on Jul 9, 2008 6:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Yes that's always a possibility

But if I’m Cadel, I don’t worry about SdV, Liquigas, or Euskatel. I just let them go up the road. There is nobody on any of those teams that Evans has to worry about, certainly not Ricco. A smart move would be to make a deal with one of those teams prior to the start of tomorrow’s stage. They go up the road and collect the stage and your team doesn’t have to do anything. Kirchen can’t win the Tour and it’s doubtful at this point that Valv Piti can win either so I wouldn’t worry about those guys really.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 9, 2008 6:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i don't think the Big Guys

will attack in 2º category!! Maybe in the last climb, i bet in this last 2km only, Kirchen, maybe Valverde want win the stage and It is too early to big efforts.

by semprenaroda on Jul 9, 2008 8:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's going to be chaos and really fun

My guess is that a bunch of secondary GC threats will launch an attack on the first Cat 2, linking up with the earlier break, and no one team will be strong enough or committed enough to put the hammer down.

Guys like Pereiro and Zubeldia will end up the road with people like Montfort, Trofimov, Lovkvist, and some of the KOM suspects. Several of them will end up ahead of Evans, Cunego, Valverde, Menchov, and company. Think the first uphill finish in last year’s Vuelta, when way too many people gained time on the favorites.

by Mr 60 Percent on Jul 9, 2008 5:43 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Total speculation

but VV is the only favorite who really has strong climbing support. One could imagine him sending OP & friends to the front on the first climb to put the hurt on the helpers from the other teams.

Hard to say. VV and IB tend to be much more conservative then that, so I dont’ expect them to throw down on the first climb, but their depth is one clear advantage.

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Jul 9, 2008 5:44 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Illes Ballears

I’m stuck in a time warp, I should have said C’dE for Caisse D’Epargne

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Jul 9, 2008 7:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Valvder will most definitely attack

And might win the stage, but the time gaps to Evans and Menchov won’t be great, especially with no time bonuses. If he does attack, it’ll just be another little bit of the reserves he needs to survive the 50+K sufferfest at the end of the Tour used up on a stage win. At this point, he needs to play it conservatively for now and wait until the big mountains if he has anything left by then. At this point, a high GC place is the only thing that will matter to his DS, almost guaranteed.

If I just had one more gear, I...

by SpunOut on Jul 9, 2008 6:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pereiro and CDE

Since he rode so conservatively last year, people forget that Oscar Pereiro spent three years getting in every break away in the Tour. He drank a lot of mineral water to do that.

Say what you want about him, he’s still the only guy in the Tour to finish in the top-10 each of the last four Tours.

Last year CDE put Arroyo and Gutierrez in every breakaway, which helped in the team classification but didn’t really help Valverde. So this year I’m sure they’ll let loose OP.

by Mr 60 Percent on Jul 9, 2008 5:47 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

All your speculation is interesting...

but the hardnosed and cynical traders on the betting exchanges provide a better guide as to who will prevail. Here are the latest (best) odds on winning this stage :
Valverde pays 6 to 1
Kirchen 8
Ricco 8.4
Cunego 12
Schelck F 20
Moreau 30
Chavanel 33
Sanchez 36
Piepoli 36
Evans 40
Menchov 40
Jens 50
Schleck A 55
Wegmann 65
De La Fuente 75
Astarloza 75
Efimkin 85
.
.
Cavendish 1000
Very open this stage, pity internet gambling is banned for most of you guys, some of you could certainly win at this lark..

by Rapscallion on Jul 9, 2008 6:38 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Shoot, I wish I could figure out about copying images

but there are two pix on the CSC website that are really touching to me. Mother Bjarne with Fabian meeting the press after the ITT. They’re the last 2 on p. 8 of the TdF Gallery.

Link to site http://www.teamcsc-saxobank.com/gallery_start.asp.

by NE Observer on Jul 9, 2008 6:40 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Its the OTHER cat 2!

The way I see it the winning move will take place on the 1st cat-2 climb. Columbia will positively be involved in it and probably it will be Kirchen. These hills are not the mountains so a couple of the GC riders will understand that they won’t have to save themselves till the last climb. There will probably be a couple groups ahead of the peloton.

by ursula on Jul 9, 2008 6:42 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But do you really think

that the other GC types will let him go?

by Hons on Jul 9, 2008 7:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No but...

This is where the numbers game comes into play. I do expect several attacks. I also expect those attacks to come from multiple CSC and Columbia riders. To me this stage is tailor made for the spring Classics CSC strategy of using the team to wear down the enemy. Sending O’Grady, the Schlecks, Sastre, Kirchen, Hincapie etc on the attack will definitely let some of these guys get away. CdE will join in on the fun.

I think SpunOut makes a great case for an Evans GC win; I also think every team sees the same thing. The other teams will ignore Popo and keep sending numbers ahead and those numbers especially on this stage and the next will be bolstered by the likes of Ricco and Pozzatto so those breaks will have a good chance to stay away.

Of course Evans can counter these breaks tomorrow. If he does though eventually there wil be a day when he can’t.

by ursula on Jul 9, 2008 7:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You have no idea

how much I hope that you are right.

by Hons on Jul 9, 2008 8:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ricco

Ricco had a brief post-stage comment today. He said tomorrow, he’s going for it. He thinks it’s a good finish for him, though he doesn’t know the climb all that well. He’ll give his all for it.

After Valverde’s crash, he might be a bit behind it tomorrow. I don’t think Frank Schleck has the speed to win this – I suspect it’ll be a decent sized group at the finish.

by gavia on Jul 9, 2008 7:24 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

as a side note...

Ricco is down another team mate. After losing Gomez, today Aurelien Passeron is out. He’s the guy that collided with the spectator. He has a fracture in his t10 vertebrae. Someone who’s physiology knowledge is better than mine can explain the significance of that… Anyway, only seven guys left at saunier.

by gavia on Jul 9, 2008 7:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Basically any fractured vertebrae

is not a good thing – a Thoracic (mid back) vertebrae that is fractured would be pretty freaking painful to ride with, if at all. Not surprised that he’s had to pull out, shame that it had to happen this way.

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

by Drew... on Jul 10, 2008 10:21 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

grazie!

i’m not good at that sort of thing.

by gavia on Jul 10, 2008 1:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

si

i’d like to see him contest this thingy – especially if he wins it!. we’ll also get a chance to see what kind of legs Monfort is bringing to the party.

heh. is it tomorrow yet?

by gavia on Jul 9, 2008 7:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ugh

And I have to be at work tomorrow morning until 1 pm, Pacific. Time to crank up the Tivo.

by ursula on Jul 9, 2008 7:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

awwww :-(

that’s the opposite of what you want… lol, you want to have to go to work at 1.00 pm pacific. but at least you can watch it on tape.

by gavia on Jul 9, 2008 10:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've found this detailed profile from a spanish forum

Friday’s stage is also interesting. A typical belgian wall near the finish:

link

by King of Doping on Jul 9, 2008 7:24 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Samu!

Sam-San! Sam-(in)san(e)!

"If writing too much about the Classics is wrong, I don't want to be right."

by Chris... on Jul 9, 2008 11:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cadel waiting

for a early breakaway, or in the categorie 2. This is the best for him because others teams have to work, he not. If was a guy like Millar or Voigt, or maybe Euskatel guys, Astarloza…better. Cadel Evans don’t will make a big effort tomorrow.

Evans will loose 10,15 seconds at maximum for Valverde, Cunego because of this last 2km puncheur.

I think gerolsteiner will work hard, this is not a big mountain stage and if Schumacher his good at seems, he can hold the yellow.

by semprenaroda on Jul 9, 2008 8:20 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think you're right about Gerolsteiner.

They will chase any threat hard, the yellow jersey is the biggest prize the team has known in any tour they’ve ever raced. I would expect to see a very select group contesting the last 2k as the pace will be high in the effort to protect the jersey for another day.

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana. - G. Marx

by flying dog on Jul 9, 2008 9:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

si...

and they need a sponsor. defending the yellow looks really good on teevee, even if ultimately meaningless in terms of the race, and gets headlines. they have to defend.

by gavia on Jul 9, 2008 10:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

meant to say...

agree also that garmen will be looking for a break, as will a French rider like Chavanel and potentially digregorio. interesting to see if gerol can get the right break to go – there are a fair number of stage hunting teams who will want this one to stay away, and cadel and a few of the other gc riders might be willing to play along. too bad we won’t see that first hour of racing, could be pretty intense stuff.

by gavia on Jul 9, 2008 10:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yep

Gadret. crap. I just made a KOM graphic and I left him off. Bah.

Maybe I fix tomorrow.

I wonder if they save him for the high mountains? That dude can climb!

by gavia on Jul 9, 2008 10:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ag2r have a strong team in the mountains

some of them will be there, at least in the first breakaway: Valjavec, Efikim, Gadret or maybe Riblon.

by semprenaroda on Jul 9, 2008 11:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You guys are all crazy

Voekler is going to get in the break and take the win.

by Hons on Jul 9, 2008 10:42 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol, i would smile to see it :-)

and i wouldn’t be surprised to see him in the break tomorrow at all!

by gavia on Jul 9, 2008 10:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This was posted at 4:42 CEST

I now know this is “Happy Hour where Hons lives”. Good to know.

by Jens on Jul 10, 2008 4:40 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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