New co-sponsor for Riis Cycling team
by Gemma on Sep 28, 2008 6:44 AM EDT
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PrintWhilst some people (I wasn't one of them) thought that today's announcement from Saxo-Bank and Riis Cycling would be that the bank were pulling their sponsorship, this has not turned out to be the case.
Instead, a co-sponsor has been revealed - Danish company IT Factory. The deal is for three years and the team will be known as Team Saxo Bank - IT Factory. When offered the chance to become a sponsor IT Factory wanted to do so only if they could be a main sponsor, Saxo Bank agreed to share and the new arrangement was born.
Danish companies now main sponsors for Riis (opens in new window)
Wonder what the new strip will look like? I like this season's a lot and hope it doesn't change too much...
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Ha! And all those who predicted the swift demise of Saxo Bank just cause a money trail might have been established.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
That was me and I'm still worried
The Fränk thing isn’t going away just because Bjarne has found new money unfortunately.
Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets
It’s not going away but it’s not just exploded on the scene either. It’s been reported for over a year now. Each report adds a new bit of evidence is all. But we’ve had plenty of time to get used to the idea. And nor is Riis’ past going away and the fact that it’s highly like CSC were doping before Puerto burst the bubble and Riis brought in Damsgaard.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
And with every new piece
it gets harder for Riis to maintain that the doping has not been systematic. I think sponsors and fans can accept that riders have been doping also on CSC but if there are indications of systematic doping with Riis’s approval as late as 2006, what then? Who will believe in the honest desire from Riis to run a clean team given that knowledge?
Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets
Who will believe in the honest desire from Riis to run a clean team given that knowledge?
I believe in it. Don’t you?
What I believe is this: Riis was one of the dirtiest junkies in the peloton. He rode for one of the dirtiest teams outside of Spain. When he became a DS, he applied the principles he learned as a rider. CSC were a dirty team. Probably one of the dirtiest teams outside of Spain. But. When Puerto broke, Riis was one of the first to see how the wind had changed. And cold and calculating as he was, he went the Team Clean way as a means of keeping sponsors in this sport.
Why not believe an honest desire from Riis to be clean post-Puerto? If you don’t believe Riis can run a clean team then how can you believe in an honest desire to run clean teams from Telekom’s Stapleton or a double-talking junkie like Vaughters?
What’s the real downside of this? Well here’s one: rather than merely having blind faith in Damsgaard’s programme, we might have to find out what it really involves, and how much faith it’s really worth investing in it.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
+1
CSC has been posting reports on test results online every six months or so. Here’s one of them—it explains how and when the samples are collected and what they test for. Says that 80% of samples are collected out of competition and unannounced, and each rider has been tested an average of 28 times, including 13 blood screenings. I’m no expert, but it’s interesting reading.
Double-talking junkie?
That is kind of harsh, don’t you think? “Double-talking” implies that you believe Vaughters is currently saying one thing while doing another, which is the sort of accusation you are going to have to back up with some evidence. Perhaps you meant that Vaughters is a hypocrite for running a dope-free program after having doped during his career?
Of course it’s harsh. And I say it as someone who likes Garmin. But try and read it in the context of what I said.
Is it false? No. He junked. But when you ask him him he says one thing on the surface another in the subtext. Double talking.
Is Vaughters a hypocrite for running a dope-free programme after having doped during his career? Well now that’s a challenging question. Is Bruyneel a hypocrite for bringing Damsgaard on board after all the years of innuendo about the Disco days? Is LA a hypocrite for bringing Catlin on board after all the innuendo about his past? What do you have to do to pass from the past to the present – to go from poacher to gamekeeper – without being a seen by someone to be a hypocrite?
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
I read it in context
And what I should have wrote instead of “harsh” was “unfair”. It’s bogus calling him double talking. I have read nearly every interview with the guy that has been published and watched every interview and he is remarkably consistent. He may dance around his personal drug use, but that is not double talk. That vagueness is part of his message. Or perhaps a polite way of saying “none of your f-ing business” to a reporter which I imagine is kind of tricky when you are hoping that reporter will write kindly about your crusade. And the term “junkie” just does not work either. Maybe junkie has a different meaning where you come from but where I come from, none of these guys are junkies. The ones who dope are cheaters, and they are liars, but junkies? Come on. That’s silly.
"dancing around" is as good a definition of "double talk" as any
Or rather, the word has two main definitions…
1. language that appears to be earnest and meaningful but in fact is a mixture of sense and nonsense
2 : inflated, involved, and often deliberately ambiguous language
The implication may involve deceit or lying, but actually it’s all about the vagueness and dancing around. Which, as you point out, Vaughters more or less has to do when talking about his own “history.”
Until a couple years ago, it is probable that most of the riders (most meaning "over 50%) were doping. Deal with that fact, whether or not you prefer to exempt specific favorite riders.
Riders who didn’t dope still worked with trainers who oversaw dopers, in teams that systemically encouraged doping, or with the help of teammates who doped. It basically touched everyone, in some way. (I’m pretty sure they didn’t pull Riis’s win because they knew they could work their way far down the standings without finding a cleaner, more deserving recipient.)
Short of having no DS, no docs, no coaches, no administrators and no sponsors with any pro experience, there is NO way to put together a team whose leadership is 100% personally above reproach or suspicion FOR THINGS DONE BEFORE 2006.
If you don’t believe ex-dopers, and even ex-doping DS’s can run non-doping teams, it would make sense to apply that stance uniformly. If you believe that people can change, you have to make individual arguments. Would Riis rather keep the team doping if he thought he could? Would he choose to play those odds? Is being a cold-hearted rat bastard automatically going to make him a more likely dope-friendly DS? Do you not trust him because of his cynicism? If he were that much if a jerk, could his team bond so nicely with each other, and work so well together? Or does working for a jerk make that happen, like army boot camp?
There are discussion to be had, here….
Crap
I hate it when I look up a word and realize that it doesn’t mean what I always thought it meant. In my mind, double talk is what someone who is “two-faced” would engage in.. saying one thing while doing another, or saying one thing to one audience while saying something totally different to another audience, which was my whole argument above that Vaughters is consistent, he has not shown any reason to be accused of being two faced, But yep, it looks like “dancing around” is what double talk actually means so I stand corrected. Apparently I am arguing with myself, which happens sometimes…
But don’t assume anything about my opinions regarding doping or make any assumptions about my level of naivete from my confusion of terms. I’m not saying that only the pure can lead. On a personal level, I’m fully aware, even comfortable, with the messy nature of the sport right now. I don’t care if Vaughters doped. Or if Riis doped. I am more concerned with their actions now. I have my eyes wide open and realize that few, if any, of the players have untarnished pasts. And if someone from one of the clean teams tests positive, I will not be all that surprised. Disappointed sure, but not surprised.
And the word Junkie… In the context of a discussion about drugs, junkie means drug addict (I looked it up since evidently my feeble brain cannot be trusted). Very, very few of these guys are drug addicts in that sense. EPO is not addictive like heroin is addictive. That is my argument against the junkie label…
I don't know what to think
but the only thing it comes back to for me (in terms of wanting to believe in the wanting to run clean) is that Damsgaard’s program sure as hell is not cheap to run (so even if done for pr reasons it’s a damn pricey way of doing it). Plus Riis doesn’t have control over the program so from that point of view it would like it’s not done just for the pr value
The UCI says that there is no direct evidence
Let’s hope there really is none. Fuentes exonerated Contador with a statement, but will he do it for Schleck?
My point of view is slightly different
I believe(d?) that Riis had the ambition to run a clean team well before 2006. He always talked about things he wanted to do differently as a DS from how it was done when he was a rider, I always assumed taking away the pressure on riders to dope and get results was one of them.
Attitude is the single most important factor, a “damsgaard-program” without the genuine commitment to clean racing from the teammanagment is worth nothing (as is commitment without backing it up with a testingprogram).
If it should turn out that Riis has been encouraging his stars to dope as late as 2006 I will certainly not cheer for that team ever again.
Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets
Well I suppose the good news must surely be that this money-trail if from Schelck’s own bank account and not CSC / Riis Cycling’s. Making it at least look like an individual’s transaction rather than systematic doping.
Attitude is the single most important factor, a "damsgaard-program" without the genuine commitment to clean racing from the team managment is worth nothing (as is commitment without backing it up with a testing program).
But I think Riis has that commitment. He doped when everyone else doped, he did what he had to. For sure he shouldn’t have and his victories will always be tainted. I find it hard to believe that as a DS he didn’t have junkies riding for him, not given the time it was and the strength CSC showed. And I find it impossible to believe Riis couldn’t have been aware if his riders were junkies, not given the output monitoring going on. But when he saw an opportunity to go clean, he took it. For that I for one am grateful. I won’t forget his past, but if he helps build a cleaner future, it can be forgiven. I will cheer him for helping this sport go clean.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
And also at that conference
Riis said that he thought that Schleck was clean, and that he (FS) has requested a meeting with the relevant Luxembourg authorities.
What would $7k buy you from Fuentes? An apsrin?
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
No idea
not sure what the going price of drugs, blood doping products are I’m afraid. But I’d certainly be interested to know what it gets (and I thought it was Euros).
I have to say that I’m not expecting anything but bad news out of that issue, as I just don’t see what kind of innocent explanation there could be, but I guess only time will tell.
Euros it is. My tpying. Shift+4 vs Ctrl+Alt+4.
Innocent explanation: my girlfriend is into vampirism and I wanted to give her a birthday pressie of a bag of blood?
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Ah ya gotta laff, don’t ya?
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
I think I’m just more cynical is all. I see a young Schelck in a Carrera jersey and immediately I’m doing the math to work out whether Ferrara was closed down before he was old enough to be sent there.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Don't know about confirmed
Legala auythorities in germany and Luxembourg have said that they have forwarded evidence of transfers from Schleck to an account that is known through OP to be connected to Fuentes.
Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets
lol
Both the Basso and Ullrich cases involved payments in the 20-30,000 euro range. I doubt 7000 got much of anything from Dr Fuentes.
A curious case, this money transfer. I’m inclined to believe it’s real, but I don’t know what sort of significance to assign it. In the context of Puerto, 7000 is pennies. Was this the only transfer? Heh, I have a lot of questions.
Maybe he was merely thinking of thinking of doping?
As opposed to Basso who was thinking of doping in the future and had to pay the larger amount.
Carlos Sastre - Tour de France winner - Born From Jets
lol, yeah
You know, funny you say that. But if the meet-and-greet between Schleck and Fuentes really went down, that may be right there the answer to the money transfer. I can’t imagine Fuentes gave his time for free ;-)
Impossible to know, though, until (or if) they tell us more.
More re the press conference
My own observation – I will say that given all that’s happened in the last couple of days I was a bit surprised the press conference still went ahead as they must have known it would be an ‘interesting’ experience.
Apparently the body language was a tad uncomfortable – to be expected given said circumstances. There were plenty of fierce questions apparently inc some asking why Cance, Stuey and Jens weren’t there at the World’s – whilst no real answer was given re Stuey, Riis pointed out that Jens always planned to end his season after Pologne & that Cance was tired after the combined Tour and Olympics efforts (plus I seem to remember there being mention at the end of Pologne that he was a bit ill – all that cold and rain having made him sick).
Not that I understand the fuss over their attendance or non-attendance. If they’re going to be unmasked as cheats or something it would hardly make any difference as to whether they were at Varese or not I would have thought…but that’s just me.
There are some interesting stats on days raced
over at the CSC forums. Top of the league is Jens who has done 96 days this year. Stuey is up near the top on 86 too. Not that it has anything to do with whether or not they doped.
Thanks for the link
I didn’t mean to suggest I thought badly of them – hell maybe I’m just totally naive, but I am totally willing to believe all the reasons they’ve given for not being there. They’ve all had long tough seasons and I can see why they would want a break by now, I certainly would!
Mind you
96 days still only comes to two days racing a week. Remember that Merckx at times was getting a win a week. Jens would have to win every second race he enters to match that.
Yeah well
times are different now and the sport has changed (I’m not talking about the drugs either) And the same could be said about pretty much any sport you care to mention in terms of how things probably aren’t as tough calendar wise as they used to be :)
Remember...
…by not racing at the worlds, they do not open themselves up to additional testing – that allows the comparison of values already recorded in previous tests.
by Chief Commissaire on Oct 1, 2008 2:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow. If only the UCI had a way of testing these guys even when they weren’t riding, and comparing their results.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Oct 1, 2008 4:14 AM EDT up reply actions
only comes to two days racing a week
Cyclists today, eh? Lazy little gits.
Opposite to Gemma, considering how drugs changed the sport, made it more balls out from the bell, it was harder to ride as many race days. As the effects of doping fade away, more riders will ride longer seasons again. But with teams of 25 in the Pro Tour teams and 20 in the Pro Continentals, even in a crowded racing calender, there’s not enough races around to put us back in the days of Merckx where riders were racing most every other day.
Plus, back in Meckx’s day, racing was what a lot of riders did for training.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
I don't think we do have the opposite views to be honest :)
I agree that drugs HAVE made a difference (but then who truly knows when it all started and just how far back it goes in some form or other) but I just wanted to look at something other than the drugs for a change :)
And the squad sizes nowadays is one of the things I was thinking of – as you say those team sizes (plus the fact that a number of events in the calendar now clash so you can’t ride them all) mean there just aren’t as many opportunites to ride now as there used to be
Didn’t so much mean it was the opposite view, or that only one explanation is possible. I think all the points made contribute to the explanation.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Don’t sweat it. I’m not here to pick fights and I don’t think others are trying to pick fights with me. Apps not necessary.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Plus I suppose we should consider the amount of travel involved these days. You’re racing on what … four, five continents?
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
It's always hard comparing the different eras
I remember a story about a soccer player looking for a transfer back in the fifties/ early sixties. The view of the chairman “They may be able to give him a higher salary, but can they get him as much plumbing work in the summer as we can.”
That is a very good point
and something that is only going to get more of an issue if the UCI have their way in setting up races in the likes of China and Russia
But now I think of it
those old riders got around a fair bit even though they can’t have been rich enough to fly everywhere, the motorway network was patchy at best and cars tended to overheat if you went at 60mph for more than an hour at a time. OK the distances weren’t as great, but the travelling time must have been comparable.
yeah, well after surfing the web to get some more info on this
I got somewhat um fed up by ‘cycling fans’ that are taking great pleasure, relishing actually, the fact that certain teams might be hit with this while they assume that their team is clean. I do think that dopers should be found, prosecuted and if found guilty, kicked out of the sport. But this pleasure had nothing to do with cleaning the sport but more with somehow showing that the poster was right.
So I’m sticking with silly while waiting for the news (and while the economy goes down the toilet).
right there with ya :-)
silly is good. just looked at the nyt, i think i’ll go back to silly now. and maybe a bike ride.
mmmm
we had some fabulous vino over the weekend. there’s a new vino shop near the gav shack. what a beautiful thing that is.
so, when you comin’ to visit? ;-)
IT Factory ...
… more like IT Crowd
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
LOL
But their website have some good pics of the riders
http://www.itfactory.com/tsbitf/index.html
by LittleOldLady on Sep 29, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Nah, IT Crowd is what I think they are. Declaring a war on stress.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
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