Ranking the Strongest Team
by Frinking on Jan 6, 2009 7:31 PM EST
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PrintAfter a small discusion in the SaxoBank tread I figured I would like to know which team is overall strong.. We all know Quick-Step year is based on April but is that really true? Let's take a look about the 8th strongest team, in mine opinion, and how allround their teams are.
I'm not gonna include all the races. Take the important one.
The 10 teams: Astana, Saxo Bank, Liquigas, Rabobank, Caisse D'Epargne, Silence-Lotto, Katusja and Quick-Step. Updated with Lampre and Team Colombia. For their rosters click here
System: We have 5 categories
- Springclassice
- Het 3-luik
- Tour of Suisse and Dauphine
- Grand Tours
- World Champs and Giro Lombardia
Put a number 1 to 10 to the teams in this category and the one of the highest score wins..
p.s. All mistakes are mine.. So if you miss a cyclist or think I have included a cyclist how isn't supposed to be there be my guest in the comments.
Clear? Ready.. Set.. Go!
on the flip!
Calender
February
28 Het Volk (4)
March
1 Kuurne-Brussels-Kuurne (5)
25 Dwars door Vlaanderen (5)
28 E3 Prijs Vlaanderen (4)
29 Brabantse Pijl (5)
April
5 Tour of Flanders (2)
8 Gent-Wevelegem (4)
12 Paris-Roubaix (2)
19 Amstel Gold Race (4)
22 La Flèche Wallonne (4)
26 Liège-Bastogne-Liège (2)
May
9-31Jun Giro d'Italia (1)
June
7-14 Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (3)
13-21 Tour de Suisse (3)
July
5-27 Tour de France (1)
August
29-20 Sept Vuelta a Espana (1)
September
23 World Champs Time Trial (4)
26 World Champs Road Race (4)
October
17 Giro di Lombardia (2)
Let's start in in April with the Springclassics:
Het Volk, K-B-K, Brabantse Pijl, Tour of Flanders, Gent-Wevelgem and Parijs-Roubaix. Sort of the same races:
Astana: Vaitkus, Murayev and Rast (3)
Caisse D'epargne: Garcia Acosta (1)
Liquigas: Franzoi and Willems (4)
Quick-Step: Boonen, Devolder, Barredo, De Jongh, Rosseler, Weylandt and Chavanel (10)
Rabobank: Freire, Flecha, Posthuma, Langeveld, Boom and Nuyens (8)
SaxoBank: Cancellara, Breschel, Arveresen, O'grady, Goss and Kroon (8)
Silence-Lotto: Van Avermaet, Hoste, Roelandts and Gilbert (9)
Katusja: Gusev, McEwen, Ivanov, Pozzato (6)
Lampre: Ballan and Spilak (8)
Colombia: Cavendish, Hincapie, Burghardt and Edvald Boasson Hagen (6)
Het 3-luik: AGR- Fleche Wallonie and L-B-L
Astana: - (0)
Caisse D'epargne: Valverde, Rodriquez and Arroyo (9)
Liquigas: Nibali (2)
Quick-Step: - (0)
Rabobank: Gesink, Freire and Nuyens (6)
SaxoBank: Kroon, Schleck and Schleck (8)
Silence-Lotto: Dekker and Gilbert (5)
Katusja: Pfannenberger and Pozzato (5)
Lampre: Cunego and Gasparotto (8)
Team Colombia: Kirchen (7)
Tour of Suisse and Dauphine Libere:
Special category.. How do you include? The winners, Stagewinners of the one how get in the publicity? I pick a mix of sprinters and possible GT winners..
Astana: Armstrong, Zubeldia and Contador (10)
Caisse D'epargne: Uran, Valverde and Moreno (8)
Liquigas: Benatti, Kreuziger and Kuschynski (7)
Quick-Step: Boonen and Devolder (4)
Rabobank: Mollema, Gesink and Freire (5)
SaxoBank: Schleck and Schleck (4)
Silence-Lotto: Dekker, Evans, De Greeff and Van den Broeck (8)
Katusja: McEwen, Karpets and Steegmans (3)
Lampre: (0)
Team Colombia: Montfort, Lovkist and Albasini (7)
Giro D'italia, Tour de France, Vuelta a Espana
Astana: Armstrong, Kloden, Contador and Leipheimer (8)
Caisse D'epargne: Rodriquez, Valverde, Arroyo and Moreno (7)
Liquigas: Basso, Pellizotti, Benatti, Kreuziger and Nibali (10)
Quick-Step: Boonen and Chavanel (5)
Rabobank: Mentsjov, Gesink and Freire (7)
SaxoBank: van Goolen, Cancellara, Breschel, Schleck and Schleck (9)
Silence-Lotto: Dekker, Evans, van Avernaet (6)
Katusja: McEwen and Steegmans (5)
Lampre: Bruseghin, Cunego, Gasparotto and Cauccholli (5)
Team Colombia: Cavendish, Sivtsov, Cavendish, Greipel, Montfort and Lovkist (8)
World Champs and Giro Lombardia
Astana: Brajkovic (3)
Caisse D'epargne: Rodriquez, Valverde and Uran (7)
Liquigas: Nibali (3)
Quick-Step: - (0)
Rabobank: Gesink, Nuyens and Freire (8)
SaxoBank: Cancellara, Larsson, Kolobnev and F. Schleck (8)
Silence-Lotto: Dekker, Chavanel and Gilbert (6)
Katusja: Pozzato and Pfanneberger (5)
Lampre: Cunego and Ballan (10)
Team Colombia: (0)
So the results. I hope you still enjoy it..
| Spring | 3-luik | Suisse/Dauphine | Grand Tours | WC and Lombardia | Total | |
| Astana | 3 | 0 | 10 | 8 | 3 | 24 |
| Caisse | 1 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 7 | 32 |
| Liquigas | 4 | 2 | 7 | 9 | 3 | 25 |
| CSC | 8 | 8 | 4 | 9 | 8 | 37 |
| Quick-Step | 10 | 0 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 18 |
| Rabobank | 7 | 7 | 5 | 7 | 8 | 34 |
| Silence-Lotto | 9 | 5 | 8 | 6 | 6 | 34 |
| Katusja | 6 | 5 | 3 | 5 | 5 | 24 |
| Lampre | 8 | 8 | 0 | 5 | 10 | 31 |
| Team Colombia | 6 | 7 | 7 | 8 | 0 | 28 |
As solid as a rock SaxoBank.. Predictable? Yeah a bit. They are just too strong..
- SaxoBank
- Silence-Lotto/Rabobank
- Caisse D'Epargne
- Lampre
- Team Colombia
- Liquigas
- Astana/Katusja
- Quick-Step
So what does it say?
- Nothing about the wins.. Let's make that clear.. Only that SaxoBank probably get the most attention next year and it gets clear why they can have their great teamtactics..
- Silence picked their cyclists for this season very good. They weren't there last year. A pity for them they didn't get Schumacher and Kohl(?)
- Is it fair to let P-N, T-A and MSR out? Probably not..
- Someone how has something to add? Please do.. Even if you think the blog isn't that good.
- Team Colombia and Lampre are good but both have a zero pointer. So they have weaknesses in their squad. Team Colombia let go a couple of their top riders... Lampre just to few riders for a week or so.
- Quick-Step is really based on the spring.. Just to small minded Belgium!
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Comments
Question
Would you say that this selection of races will look a lot like the rankings from the Pro Tour races, or from the CQ rankings? I notice you left out a lot, but if you were to add them in, it might not change your ranking anyway.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 6, 2009 11:04 AM EST reply actions
Ehm don't really know..
This are probably the races who get the most media attention. So for most of the teams important races. Maybe P-N, T-A and MSR have to get their category but it’s hard to make the selection their.. How do you include?
Some say the best things in life, are one the inside.
Fascinating
I am also caught up in how to rank teams but in a different way. I’ll post separately later but in no way do I wish to diminish your efforts here. One thing that I noticed that’s similar to what you have here: last year it turned out that there were exactly nine teams that were a cut above the rest. In no particular order:
Saxo, Columbia, Caisse d"Epargne, Astana, Lampre, Liquigas, Quickstep, *Lotto, and Rabobank.
The other teams either a) had a much smaller budget, and/or b) were more tightly regionally focused.
I think that nine teams were better than the rest is an unusually small number, due in part to the folding of several teams over the last couple of years (Disco, Saunier Duval, Gerolsteiner) and after this year any or all of Garmin, Katyusha, Milram, Cervelo, Fuji, and AG2R might (or might not) join them at the top. But we will see.
Otherwise, one thing I see about your system is that the point values you assign to various riders/teams looks subjective: you are eyeballing who are the best riders an any particular race. That’s okay I think for several reasons, but it does lend to others of us doing the same thing and coming up with very different rankings potentially.
Have you gone back to last year and see how your proposal works? rank the teams from 2008 results?
Again, fascinating work.
No I haven't..
I’ve sort out some results from last year but didn’t test my work on last year. Don’t think that’s gonna work and yeah it’s subjective. It’s gonna happen in the future but I hope I’ll get a clear vision for that but their always will be failures and surprises this year.
btw.. Love your work.. It’s good with a lot of nice and fun facts
Some say the best things in life, are one the inside.
There are so many riders that could or could not be included.
McEwen really isn’t a northern classic guy.
Then there’s Ballan and Lampre, we’ve seen over the years that he is definitely a Northern Classic rider. There’s also Cunego and his Ardennes/Lombardia record.
For Saxo Bank, Kolobnev is becoming a real Classics threat but maybe he is too busy working for the Schlecks.
Yeah is true.
But McEwen has won a lot semi-classics so I think it’s fair to include him. And Kolobnev in the Ardennes? Nah that’s never gonna happen.
Some say the best things in life, are one the inside.
Paris-Brussels?
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 7, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
Thanx. He's out there..
It’s just in the system..
Some say the best things in life, are one the inside.
This whole thing is far too subjective.
Just take the column of Grand Tours.
Liquigas scores a 10!?
To top that, they are the only team to score a 10?
How did that happen?
Let’s review the podiums for the last GT’s
Giro –
1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 89.56.49
2 Riccardo Riccò (Ita) Saunier Duval – Scott 1.57
3 Marzio Bruseghin (Ita) Lampre 2.54
- 4 Franco Pellizotti (Ita) Liquigas 2.56
TDF –
1 Carlos Sastre Candil (Spa) Team CSC – Saxo Bank 87.52.52
2 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence – Lotto 0.58
3 Bernhard Kohl (Aut) Gerolsteiner 1.13
- 13 Roman Kreuziger (Cze) Liquigas 12.59
1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 80.40.08
2 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Astana 0.46
3 Carlos Sastre Candil (Spa) Team CSC – Saxo Bank 4.12
- 75 Alessandro Vanotti (Ita) Liquigas 1.43.13!!!!!!
So, the best Liquigas got in all the GT’s combined was one guy who got 4th this last year and the hiring of a former possibly good again guy in the off season.
They get a 10 for this?
Looking at the GT Podiums, my poor math at 2 am says Astana had most the slots on the podium, and those guys are still on the team. They also added one and possibly 2 more GT options if you count Popo’.
They get an 8?
You may want to go back and recheck how you attained the numbers you are presenting.
You're forgetting the sprinters
Frinking’s grand tour rankings include both gc guys and sprinters. Liquigas has a sprinter — Bennati — who has won the points jersey in two recent grand tours (2008 Giro, 2007 Vuelta), and is a multiple stage winner. Astana will likely win fewer grand tour stages than Liquigas this year.
I agree that a 10 for Liquigas is a bit steep, but not by much. I’d probably give Liquigas a 9 in the grand tours and leave Astana at an 8. The addition of Basso brings Liquigas into the top tier of grand tour gc teams, and Nibali and Kreuziger are young stars in the making on their way up. Unlike Kloden and Leipheimer, Nibali and Kreuziger are likely to improve on their past performances this season.
by Susie Hartigan on Jan 6, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
This is where the grey area comes in
I know Benna is a favorite and all, but sprint stages versus grand tour podiums and stage wins don’t quite add up. Liquigas even with all their stage wins do not equal two grand tour wins even without stage wins. Adding Basso still doesn’t bring Liquigas on par with Astana, no way. I’m not a huge Astana fan, but if we’re talking grand tours, Astana is pretty much it. Normal sprint stages are nice, but they have no effect on the outcome of a grand tour. Since it’s a multi-stage race, time is what matters, not stage wins. With this logic in mind, TTs and mountain stages are the stages that matter. Sprints only affect single day races, because they are decided by who crosses the line first on the day, not cummulative time. So, when talking about any stage race that isn’t comprised of only sprint stages, you have to have a way to differentiate between the sprint stages and TTs/mountain stages, because they are apples and oranges.
If I just had one more gear, I...
I think everyone
probably has their own internal ranking for Stage wins vs GC position. For me they matter more than they seem to do for you. I’d take a 5th place with a couple of stages over Evan’s 2nd last year. I’d rate Cavendish’s 4 stage wins ahead of Menchov’s 4th place in the TdF last year. But YMMV. Just because it doesn’t affect the GC doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t affect the overall GT ranking. As to the value of say Benna, Boonen et al. – I think there’s great value in a top line sprinter who can possible show up at all three GT’s in a year and be competitive; something GC guys find hard to do.
I also have a different opinion on Basso, in a little while we’ll see what he’s really capable of, but his form through 2005 and 2006 is way ahead of anything Contador has shown so far. Before the ‘08 Vuelta I was thinking Contador was going to be on that level but his performance there didn’t seem to indicate he’d made much (if any) progress since the year before. Maybe it was just that his year was a bit messed up with the Giro early on but I was expecting him to rip the legs of everyone easily there and he didn’t. As I said – we’ll soon see on Basso, but apart from the other returnee he has, by a good margin, the best GT performances of any rider going around. As to the rest of the squads I rate Kreuziger highly though not as highly as A. Schleck or Gesink and I’d put Nibali a a bit further back than that – though I’d rate him probably similarly to Brajkovic. Pellizotti I don’t really rate either – but there is now some significant age questions over many of the Astana boys too. Leipheimer’s, whatzs,35? and Kloeden may have left his best years behind when he moved from T-mob.
I was more referring to the fact that Frinking had Liquigas
Ranked higher than Astana for GTs, ludricous. A few stage wins does not trump two GTs, never. Ask anybody rider in peloton which would mean more to them, a GT win or a handful of stage wins and I bet GT win would trump a few stages. As far as Basso, he hasn’t raced in awhile so I think it’s very premature to anoint him the next Tour winner, especially with the STACKED team that Astana will have. Again, I have to say that I don’t have a favorite team, especially not Astana, but the reversal of the two teams when talking about GTs makes no sense, regardless of how you figure out the math. As far as the sprinters, I agree that they are important, but TTs and mountain stages are much more important in a GT context. I don’t think that can really be argued, they determine the winner.
If I just had one more gear, I...
Frinking downgraded Liquigas to a 9 and . . .
. . . even though I think that it is still a tad on the high side, they are much more balanced then Astana.
So, I can rationalized how he can see their ‘potential’ to be higher then Astana in GT though I feel the reality of this will be much lower then this ideal potential he is focusing on.
You know, Telecom/TMobile had a higher potential through out the 90’s and early 2000’s and they still got their ass kicked in most of the GT’s every year dispite the insane number of green jerseys Zabel recieved.
So potential doesn’t really account for a hill of beans.
I will agree that they are more balanced than Astana
But they do exactly what they are supposed to do in the GTs, crush dreams. If the rankings are on how balanced a team is, I will definitely agree. But on who has a better GT team, there shouldn’t be much doubt. I agree on the sprint jerseys, don’t really add up to much.
If I just had one more gear, I...
The fact is Liquigas may show something in the Giro, but they are gonna get worked for the remaining two GTs just like they always do.
Oh and a balanced team is complete shit for a sprinter.
Just ask Zabel, McEwan, and all the other poor sprinters on teams with GT hopes.
They usually get two options, show up and make something happen on your own but be prepared to go get some coke, or just stay home and watch the race on TV.
It all depends on Basso..
If he is riding well in the Giro he wants to race the Vuelta too…
Some say the best things in life, are one the inside.
You know?
I actually hope he does well in the Giro and he does go to the Vuelta.
But your speculating, and I’m hoping which combined totals up to just about nothing.
predictions are, by their nature, largely speculation.
Sure, we could bring in some computers to tell us how well past performance is a predictor of future performance for riders of a certain age and experience level. But beyond that, with the number of totally off the wall variables—young ‘uns, Basso and Lance dropping back in to the field, massive team shake-ups, teams losing sponsors, and really no clear sense who, in the last couple of years, might have tried the EPO thing and then thought better of it (so they’re now racing clean, but giving us a false sense of their future potential)…well, it’s ALL speculation of one flavor or another.
Well this is a forward projection for 2009
obviously so the ranking is based partly on what you expect to happen. If Basso rides the Giro/Vuelta – he’s not riding the Tour where Conador will be trying to hit his peak for the year -double, I think he’s capable of winning both. If that’s the way one thinks why shouldn’t Liquigas rank ahead of Astana? It’s all speculation and semi-educated guesswork of course but that’s fun. That’s why we play VDS.
There should be somekind of separation between
The competitions like KOM and the sprint comps. They really have nothing to do with what makes a GT team a GT winning team. The really are completely different. Even if Astana only won the Tour and Vuelta every year with no stage wins, they would still be the top GT winning team. If we can all agree on wording, then everything would be great. But as far as the other competitions, I agree that they are important, just that they have no bearing on what makes a great GT winning team.
If I just had one more gear, I...
Got your point I think, but I'm looking for the best allround team..
So it means you have to include all the jerseys.. Or trying to.. It’s just what Virenque did 7 years in a row.. He focused on the KOM but he wouldn’t be awarded points for that because it has nothing to do with the outcome?
Secondly, how many jersey a team has say something about how strong their GT team is I think.
Some say the best things in life, are one the inside.
I don't really know how you would come up with points for jerseys
As they relate to a GT. Many of the yellow jersey guys from the Tour could be KOM winners if they concentrated on that, as an example. The trick is, how do you differentiate between the teams that probably won’t win the GC of a grand tour but go after lesser jerseys? You can’t really compare them, because of a different focus, sometimes not by choice. I think it’s kind of hard to quantify it. That’s the problem I think.
If I just had one more gear, I...
To the victors goes the spoils
Perhaps the easiest way to do this in the future is simply to look at the prize money won by the teams in each GT?
It is already incentivized to the GT overall, but has rewards for each jersey and stage wins.
Following a similar percentage reward system and totaling up the overall winnings may provide a better method to conclude the most rounded team.
This is the way they do math here at PdC
Anyway you want to do the numbers that discredit Bruyneel’s teams accomplishments.
bs
Frinking is a reader and regular commenter, he can do math however he wants. Can you point to a single post written by me or another editor that does what you claim?
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 6, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
lol..
I’m just a guy from Holland how give his opinion about what he thinks the cycling year in 2009 will be.. Don’t blame PdC for this math :)
Some say the best things in life, are one the inside.
Don't worry about it
you put a lot of work into this and you did a good job, sure every one will have a different opinion on the list and everyone would probably have something different in their own list, but they(including me) are too lazy to make their own. Most of us understand that this is only one opinion and most of us will respect it.
"If you go (with a break), you can either win or not win. If you don't go for it, you definitely won't win."
~ Jens Voigt
Oh and I just want to add that I would probably put Columbia on that list
they had the most wins out of every team last year so they are one of the top 8 to me. I would be very interested to see what score they would get on your chart, I think they would get a real good score as they had all those GT stage wins. Then they also did well at most classics and most of the smaller stage races. Just my 2 cents, all 8 of those teams you have are definitely top teams.
"If you go (with a break), you can either win or not win. If you don't go for it, you definitely won't win."
~ Jens Voigt
My bad, didn't see the update
"If you go (with a break), you can either win or not win. If you don't go for it, you definitely won't win."
~ Jens Voigt
Thanx!
But they downgraded themself a lot.. They lost Gerdemann and Ciolek.. 2 very talented riders. And they lost their spring with Hammond, Klier and Knaven..
But they have a lot of other good riders like EBH, Martin and Rabon but what are they targetting? I don’t know but on potential they score high.
Some say the best things in life, are one the inside.
borrowed from crashdan
time for this to pop in again, yes? Goal is to stay at the top, except when trading movie quotes.
sminer, you want to go through your own metal gymnastics in front of the whole world, be our guest. Frinking’s giving us a picture of how the cycling world looks like, from behind his eyes. One individual Dutch guy, with likes and dislikes. We’re nudging his parameters a bit to see how they fit, and because it’s fun.
If you want to rework the math for your assumptions, using his framework, and that would give you pleasure, then go for it. But it’s like trying on clothes. If you look at it and say “yuck, that’s disgusting,” you don’t have to try it on for size, because you already know you’re not buying it. Me? I’m thinking it’s so cool he’s listed Mollema, totally on spec, basically, but such a kick if that works out. I feel like I’ve been waiting years for the rebirth of Rabobank, and it’s really ready to happen. (Said that last year and the year before, too, of course.) Mentally, it’s like Frinking just handed me a nice hot drink to chase away the sleet outside.
I know there is likely some—ahem—geographical preference in play here. A Dutch guy finds the Belgian team not very impressive—I’m shocked, shocked! [grin]. But it’s cool by me. It’s also totally cool when someone from the US posts a US-centric view of cycling. We all know and love certain teams and riders best. That leads us to bad bets and VDS teams that don’t soar.
Rather than busting on “PdC math,” take your own advice and build a VDS team that will wipe the floor with Frinking’s (and my) sorry, euro-team-loving asses. We’ll applaud you for it, you know.
I can explain the 10 and 8..
First let’s take a look to Liquigas:
Benna: One of the best sprinters in the peleton. Potential: 2 point jerseys in the GT
Basso: D’uh.. He will be there
Pellizotti: With 61,5 km TT in the Giro he’s getting close
Kreuziger and Niballi. Big talents how be there in the Tour de France..
Astana..
Armstrong.. Serious have my doubts about him. He’s… old!
Kloden: When was his last good GT?
Leipheiemer: Never came further then a 6th place as captain in a GT
Contador: Focus on the Tour. Can we expect him in the Vueta? I don’t know..
But your right about the Liqui guys. I downgrade them to 9
Some say the best things in life, are one the inside.
unwad?
Not sure what that means. But I’m just pointing out that you’re making generalizations, when in fact of our 600+ registered members, there’s a pretty wide range of opinions on Lance and Astana. So calling something the PdC Way is pretty hard to back up.
Here’s a better question: why does it bother you that some people don’t like Astana or Lance? I’m a lifelong Red Sox/Patriots fan, two teams plenty of people love to hate. As far as I’m concerned, that’s their problem. Astana/Bruyneel/Contador/Lance have more hardware than anyone, so why should Astana fans care what their detractors think?
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 6, 2009 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
Answers
Unwad… as in getting your panties out of a wad.
Aren’t generalizations an opinion I’m entitled to here at PdC?
And I’ve already answered the other question about opinions. I have my unfounded opinions but I keep them pretty tight so I don’t get challenged for them. One cycling related one is that I don’t like Bjarne Riis, and while I like the way CSC races and the strength of their team, I like to pretend Riis has nothing to do with it.
Generalizations
Sure, have at it, but they tend to draw reactions.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 6, 2009 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
it's the "ad hominem" nature.
1. Frinking isn’t picking his ideas to appeal to “the site.” You don’t know—because he doesn’t say—if he’s got any opinion on Bruyneel’s DS-ing, or indeed, how he feels about the role of a DS in “making” a team. (He didn’t comment on any of the DS’s, just the riders, as if they were interchangeable, and without going into team strategy.) Assuming otherwise would be “unsupported assumption #1.”
2. You don’t, yet, know if “the PdC site” agrees with Frinking. We could all be about to disagree with his assessment of Astana, or his choice of races (those being the ones that get the most column inches in his local newspaper, more or less, which is as good a criterion as any). Assuming otherwise? Call that “unsupported assumption #2.”
Absent evidence for either #1 or #2, you’re just kinda pissing in the general direction of Frinking, not to mention assigning motives to him and to us. Frinking’s postings suggest he is nice, funny, open-minded, and not into massaging data for nefarious purposes of slighting anyone. I don’t know if he gives a rat’s ass about Lance—or Bruyneel. But I’m fairly sure he doesn’t object if you think the sun detours through their hindermost ends every morning before showing up in the eastern sky. Or if you just think they are damned impressive, all partisanship aside.
P.S.
I realize I’m less interested in Lance because, even if he does turn out to still “have it” this year, he can’t do it forever. I’d rather focus my enthusiasm on someone who’s on the way up, so I can enjoy their entire career—the “I remember him when” phenomenon. I wasn’t following Lance before he started winning the Tour. If I’d been following him since he was a neo-pro, I’d probably be totally thrilled about his return. Besides, I like it that the young ones will ride their heart out on a stage, not yet having learned to pace themselves for a whole tour. Lance is a fine rider, but he’s immaterial to these particular pleasures.
ad hominem nature was your take
not my intention. Maybe that was my fault, but I think my intention is plain and simple and true. This is the anti-Astana train site, nothing wrong with that at all, I like it in many ways, most everyone here has a much broader range and perspective of the cycling world and are very knowlegeable. I don’t like hanging out with like minded types all the time, it gets boring. I keep coming back because I like the slight obsession everyone has with cycling here, okay borderline clinical obsession, but hey, everyone still has lives. So, nothing personal towards Frinking, who I agree seems like a cool guy or girl, sometimes it’s hard to tell around here (ursula for ex.), but I think I used Frinking rather than attacked him. And no motives were assigned to him or you or “us” as you say, just another generalization of the slighting that goes on towards the real top tier team. And where else can I get such quick and accute quid pro qou for my ad hominem behavior?
Cool!
Except, well, we sure do have some Lance fans around. And we had Astana fans back before the Vino incident (I was one of them).
And even non-fans give Astana their due. Here’s a Chris quote from
October:
Ah, Team Bruyneel, always a pleasure to blog about, if only for the suspense of wondering how the folks at the Paceline will skewer whatever I say. The obvious, overarching summary of their season is simply, you ain’t seen nothing yet. Astana got put in the penalty box, but still came out swinging so forcefully that you wonder what might have been had they played a full season. And that was before adding a certain 7-time Tour de France champion. Anyway, onto the summary, with my Back Pocket Preview natterings in italics.
Attributes: World’s best stage-racing squad. Alberto Contador. Phat budget. Bottomless supply of vengeful anger.
more here
From May:
It’s no big secret that I’m not an Astana fan. I don’t harbor any ill will or suspicions; I just think their style isn’t much fun. The Bruyneel system is based around winning the time trials and enabling riders to cover the competition in the hills. Don’t get me wrong: I don’t begrudge them their tactics, which have a marvelous track record. And when it was Lance, and I was rooting for Lance, I really didn’t begrudge them their tactics. But while Postal gave us so many exciting days, fact is that Lance’s last two Tour de France wins were dull as dishwater. And while they still commanded the audience’s respect, I can understand why they weren’t greeted with much excitement in Europe.
Here’s another nod to good manners on the team, from Mr. Van P, May 2007:
I have grown accustomed to the Lance/Disco/Postal model of some kind gestures in return for all out effort later.
Chris again, May 2006
Stage 8 wasn’t supposed to matter this much, but from a brief review it looks to me like CSC did a Postal — using the mountain train to take over the first big stage, ride everyone’s legs off, and let their guy make a huge preemptive move on the GC… before anyone knew what hit them.
Basically, consistent applause for the fact that the Brunyeel Disco/Postal strategy works, but greater enthusiasm for competition that leaves the viewer on the edge of their seat, or jumping out of it.
But what do you expect from Astana in the Grand Tours this year?
Some say the best things in life, are one the inside.
Honestly
I expect they’ll win all three. Can’t say I’m hoping for it, but I’d be more surprised if they didn’t win than if they did.
How are gonna do that?
Armstrong in the Giro and Contador the TdF and Vuelta? A little sceptic about 2 GT’s in such a small range..
Some say the best things in life, are one the inside.
Contador is most likely
But with the supporting cast they will have, I think Levi or Zubeldia could have a shot at the Vuelta if Contador isn’t up for it.
pffft done that!!!
We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing.
George Bernard Shaw, 1856-1950
So? What's your point?
Maybe you should go here if you need a virtual environment where everybody loves Astana.
I myself don’t dislike Astana. It’s just that I generally favour underdogs. I supported Astana in their first and last, ignobel, 2007 TdF campaign.
My point?
Let me park it where I wish, and love to hate on those that I hate to love. Did anyone get that, I hope not?
Saw her a couple of years ago. Still hot, pansexual, & in skin tight leather.
In full summer heat, asphalt parking lot, ribs fest cookoff, Pittsburgh.
She’s older than me, ’cause the runaways were recording while I was in 6th grade or so, and they were in high school. (fact check: yeah, born 1958). I would have been dead rocking as hard as she did, never mind the sweat factor. (Not to mention, NOT producing that vacant, longing stare on the face of kids half my age.) Indeed awesome.
Another look at the Ardennes
(listed as Het 3-luik above: Amstel Gold, Fleche Wallonne, and Liege-Bastogne-Liege)
Usual disclaimer: all of this is speculative, but playing with numbers is fun. I took a closer look at this category when I saw that you’d originally left Cadel Evans out of it. He took 2nd in Fleche Wallonne last year and 7th at Liege, so I figure he should definitely be included in the Lotto rankings for the Ardennes. But I’m a number-cruncher at heart, so to see how that would have made a difference, I looked up the VDS points the current members of each team earned in this category last year. So, what would change?
Caisse d’Epargne. Valverde’s win at Liege and 3rd in Amstel were worth a huge 530 VDS points, and Rodriguez’s three 8th place finishes add another 330 points. Arroyo, listed as an asset, did not score any points, and I don’t see that he’s done much in this category. Team total: 860. You gave them 9 points. However, members of another team scored more highly…
Silence-Lotto. Thomas Dekker’s 5th, 5th, and 6th last year added up to 480 points, 2nd only to Valverde for this set of races. But let’s talk Evans, who got left out originally. His 2nd place in Fleche and 7th in Liege brought a hefty 375 points to the team. Matthew Lloyd earned 40 more with 16th in Liege. Added up, that’s 895 points—35 more than Caisse d’Epargne. Philippe Gilbert didn’t score points here but said in CN today that these races are among his targets for ‘09—given his performance later in the season, he could do well. With a higher point total and more depth, Lotto should probably jump up to 9, while Caisse either stays the same or drops to 8.
Saxo Bank. Schleck: 475 points for his 2nd at Amstel and 3rd at Liege. Schleck II: 250 points for 4th at Liege. Karsten Kroon, with a 9th in Amstel and 17th in Liege, added 110 points for a team total of 835, 3rd best overall. Frank has long been a classics guy. Andy? We’ll see. That 4th is his only significant finish in this category so far. And if he supports his brother in the classics while targeting stage races himself, he might not score very highly here. 8 points seems about right. All three of these teams scored in the 800s in VDS points, at least 300 points above any of the others, so should all be in the 8-9 range.
There’s a big jump down to the next highest-scoring team, which would be Katushya. Katyusha. Katusja. Them. Christian Pfannberger scored a healthy 425 points with 3 top-ten finishes. You give them credit for Pozzato, but no points from him last year (or in the last 3 years). Serguei Ivanov, picked up from Astana, did score 100 points for a 7th in Amstel. 525 VDS points total. But Ivanov has not been a reliable performer in this category, and at 34 next year, might be a bit past his peak. If it all hangs on Pfannberger, they should score a bit lower than Lampre and Columbia, despite having more VDS points last year. You gave them 5, which sounds good.
Lampre and Columbia both scored 430 points. Cunego did it all by himself for Lampre, while Kirchen’s 330 points are augmented by Michael Albasini, picked up from Liquigas, who scored 100. You give them 8 and 7 respectively, but I can’t agree. Each of these teams scored roughly half the VDS points of the top 3 teams. Half. I’d give them 7 at the very most.
Rabobank follows with 320 points. Gesink, definitely one to watch, scored 230. Freire added 90. Nuyens had no points. You could argue keeping them at 6 points based on Gesink’s potential, but if I were going strictly by past performance (and I’m not, totally: see Katusha) I would drop them to 5.
Near the bottom: Quick Step with 130 points scored by new recruit Jerome Pineau (10th in Amstel, 11th in Fleche); Liquigas with Nibali’s 100 for his 10th in Liege. I’m fine with keeping Liquigas at a 2, but would give Quick Step the same (which raises them from zero).
At the bottom (still): Astana, with 0 points for current riders, so 0 for the team. Apparently, just ain’t their thang.
The biggest change to Frinking’s team rankings would be that adding a few points to Lotto here moves them closer to or slightly ahead of Saxo in the overall. But then again, if you’re going to consider VDS points in one category, eventually you’ll probably have to do it for all of them…
Note Ranked strictly by VDS points earned for this category of races, the teams would be in this order: Lotto, Caisse, Saxo, Katusha, Columbia & Lampre (tie), Rabobank, Quick Step, Liquigas, and Astana.
Google is my domestique.
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