Bruyneel sticks it to Contador in Belgian magazine
by Steno on Oct 27, 2009 11:02 AM EDT
236 comments
Cyclingnews and Biciclismo report today that Johan Bruyeel has spoken with Belgian magazine Humo, including commentary about situations at the 2009 Tour. Biciclismo has published some of Bruyneel's comments that credit him with saying that there was always tension between himself and Contador, and that he doesn’t know why. He also is quoted as saying that Contador’s biggest problem last summer was that he was the highest paid rider in the world.
It's fair to say that this material has been translated at least twice.
From Biciclismo:
In an interview in the Belgian magazine Humo, Johan Bruyneel has acknowledged that his relationship with Alberto Contador has been strictly professional and that there was “tension” during the Tour de France.
“Contador was the strongest without discussion in the Tour, but he insists that he won the Tour alone. And that’s not absolutely true. Without the team he could have won, but not as comfortably. He started going on his own, together with his brother Fran (who is also his manager), his personal mechanic and his press officer,” he said.
He confirms that the relationship was professional, nothing like the one he maintains with Lance Armstrong. “Between us there was always tension. I don’t know why. For both of us, it was better to part ways. Maybe later we could go back to being together, when he's older and wiser."
He thinks that Contador’s problem is that “in one season he happened to be the highest-paid rider in the world, whereas generally a contract increases from year to year. So it’s difficult for him to keep his feet on the ground. Contador is a hero in Spain. He’s God! Suddenly he’s got a lot of zeros after his name, and that’s his big problem.”
Here’s the link to the Spanish http://www.biciciclismo.com/cas/site/noticias-ficha.asp?id=18818
Cyclingnews article: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/bruyneels-year-of-living-stressfully
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Well.. Somebody has to..
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Oct 27, 2009 11:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
that he was the highest paid rider in the world.
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Oct 27, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Somebody has to be the highest paid rider in the world. Got it.
At first I thought you were referring to the title of this post, that somebody has to “stick it to Conatdor.”
by ZoeRochelle on Oct 27, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that, too!
George bunny-hopped my bike somehow. He's like a cat. -- cvv
by cg. on Oct 27, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i am what i am! :)
George bunny-hopped my bike somehow. He's like a cat. -- cvv
by cg. on Oct 27, 2009 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Favorite Quote
“…godforsaken country such as Kazakhstan.”
Fortunately, I had put the coffee cup down before reading that.
by ManBicycleThing on Oct 27, 2009 11:34 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Will the Kazakhs sue him for saying that?
"As you can imagine, there are better places to have your birthday party than in some village called Mushny Mush Mishme." --The Wisdom of Jens
by Josenka on Oct 27, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But pain is temporary
and quitting lasts forever. So much intrigue…
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris... on Oct 27, 2009 12:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Considering his experience with Armstrong
he should be able to deal with people with inflated egos
by William H on Oct 27, 2009 12:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Did he really say between us?! Funnuy guy
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Oct 27, 2009 1:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow... what a... a...
Let me start again…
Have you noticed that whenever Bruyneel talks about someone else, it reveals unflatteringly more about Bruyneel than about the other person?
“The problem was that whatever I decided – the race plan, the team tactics, the riders selection – he always expressed his doubts.” Well, I would have asked Bruyneel if that could have been because his race plan, team tactics, and rider selection were so deeply flawed, but I guess there’s no point in asking, since his next sentence is “We all have the experience: we don’t make mistakes anymore; while Alberto still has much to learn.”
Great summation of the relationship, too: “Maybe later we can get back together when he’s become older and wiser”? Bruyneel may be much older than Contador, but wisdom, and maturity, clearly aren’t always about age, as the two of them, in their very different ways, have amply proven.
by Larry in KC on Oct 27, 2009 1:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
"...so deeply flawed"
Whatever you may think about Bruyneel as a person, the man clearly does know something about winning Tours.
by majope on Oct 27, 2009 1:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but I'm talking specifically about Tour 09
…when he turned his back rather drastically on the winning formula they used in the LA years, since that would have meant putting all resource squarely behind Alberto, something Bruyneel was quite unwilling to do.
by Larry in KC on Oct 27, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
While I believe JB is a good DS in stage races
I really wonder which DS wouldn’t have won all those Tours with Lance and Bert? In the end of the day, the riders have to go out and win it and those two were/are head and shoulders above the rest, Lance from 1999-2005 and now Bert. His Giro victory with a less talented rider(Salvo)probably says more about his ability to DS a team in GT’s, although last year he didn’t really seem to handle having two big names who both wanted to win that well, off the road at least.
Dammit Elk! I don't care if it's your mating season, you are disturbing my peaceful sleep! Just STFU!
by Phil H. on Oct 27, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
bruyneel didn't DS the 2005 giro that salvo won until like the final day or so... sean yates was the DS on that race
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Oct 27, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously, the question should be more like...
“what coach couldn’t win with Michael Jordan?” Jordan had the ability to make everyone around him rally to a cause and play at their best, and if not, he just scored 63 points and hit the winning shot. He was a player/coach almost his whole career. LA is very similar in that respect. Guys want to ride for him and ride hard for him.
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Oct 27, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I've been saying that Phil Jackson is overrated for a while too
because who can’t win with Jordan and Kobe? But I probably only feel that way because I have a deep disliking of the lakers.
Dammit Elk! I don't care if it's your mating season, you are disturbing my peaceful sleep! Just STFU!
by Phil H. on Oct 27, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What the peloton needs is the DS-equivalent of Bobby Knight.
"As you can imagine, there are better places to have your birthday party than in some village called Mushny Mush Mishme." --The Wisdom of Jens
by Josenka on Oct 27, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yikes
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Oct 27, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok . . .
What does he throw?
Spare bike off the roof-rack?
Wheels?
The mechanic from the back seat?
The corporate sponsor?
At whom does he throw the stuff? At his riders? At the commissaires?
(Which brings us to remember: Cycling had its Bob Knight—guy named Saiz)
by R Mc on Oct 27, 2009 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, every sport should have a Bobby Knight
preferably the real Bobby Knight tries his hand hand in every sport before he dies, but that probably won’t happen. This video is just great(it’s about his favorite word, which happens to be a four letter word that starts with F, so don’t watch it if you can’t handle hearing it)
Dammit Elk! I don't care if it's your mating season, you are disturbing my peaceful sleep! Just STFU!
by Phil H. on Oct 27, 2009 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Answer: Doug Collins ;)
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Oct 27, 2009 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well there is a reason he is now working TV
it’s the same reason Matt Millen is now working TV…
(I believe Jackson is a very good coach but not the greatest thing EVER as some make him out to be)
Dammit Elk! I don't care if it's your mating season, you are disturbing my peaceful sleep! Just STFU!
by Phil H. on Oct 27, 2009 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah I see what you mean:
Jackson’s good, but he’s no Jeff Bzdelik
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Oct 27, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a great observation
Bzdelik was so good he moved on to coach a college team in complete disarray just for shits and giggles.
Dammit Elk! I don't care if it's your mating season, you are disturbing my peaceful sleep! Just STFU!
by Phil H. on Oct 27, 2009 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
interesting that you say 63, I remember the first time he did that was as a rookie in his first playoffs against the Celtics…Bulls got swept ;)
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Oct 27, 2009 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But was MJ EVER as doped as Lance?
"…I saw bloody Cavendish coming, really fast…"
HH
by ELVISGOAT on Oct 27, 2009 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who knows, that would require American sports to test for doping
(trying to divert attention away from Lance doping debate, it’s not needed)
Dammit Elk! I don't care if it's your mating season, you are disturbing my peaceful sleep! Just STFU!
by Phil H. on Oct 27, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Leave Jeter out of this...
"…I saw bloody Cavendish coming, really fast…"
HH
by ELVISGOAT on Oct 27, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about A-fraud?...umm A-Rod?
Dammit Elk! I don't care if it's your mating season, you are disturbing my peaceful sleep! Just STFU!
by Phil H. on Oct 27, 2009 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Go at him.
He kinda admitted he dopes.
"…I saw bloody Cavendish coming, really fast…"
HH
by ELVISGOAT on Oct 27, 2009 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did he? Or did he just apologize to Katie Couric?
Dammit Elk! I don't care if it's your mating season, you are disturbing my peaceful sleep! Just STFU!
by Phil H. on Oct 27, 2009 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's a difference?
"…I saw bloody Cavendish coming, really fast…"
HH
by ELVISGOAT on Oct 27, 2009 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
za-zing!
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Oct 27, 2009 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever you may think about Bruyneel as a person, the man clearly does know something about winning Tours.
Agreed but for me the “deeply flawed” would refer to deeply Lance-centric
Moo
by Willj on Oct 27, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Maybe later we could go back to being together, when he's older and wiser"
Lot to learn restated…restated.
"It looks like talking, but it’s just words that comes out"
~ Andy Schleck
by Hons on Oct 27, 2009 1:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's become kind of a mantra from JB and LA, hasn't it?
by Larry in KC on Oct 27, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
UNtill Bert hands LA
his ass in ’10
"…I saw bloody Cavendish coming, really fast…"
HH
by ELVISGOAT on Oct 27, 2009 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can anyone vouch for the translation from the original version at Humo?
by Steno on Oct 27, 2009 1:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It's not online
Some (different) quotes in the teaser, like, my translation:
The first time I saw Frank Vandenbroucke was in 1989. We went to train on the World Championships course in Chambéry with the national team. His father Jean-Jacques was mechanic for the cycling association and Frank had come along. He was thirteen years old: he didn’t even race yet. We rode up the hill on that course and Claude Criquelion and Dirk De Wolf started racing each other. When we arrived at the top, nobody was feeling like saying much anymore. But who was still there following our wheels? Sure enough: little Frank! Thirteen years, remember!
by tedvdw on Oct 27, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
""Between us there was always tension. I don’t know why."
Can anyone read this comment with a straight face?
by Mark T1979 on Oct 27, 2009 1:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
completely irrational response:
In Bruyneel’[s mind, he’s wondering why he didn’t get the call from Oslo to come pick up the Peace Prize . . .
by R Mc on Oct 27, 2009 1:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
JB's 'explanation' for the tension between him and AC, namely
"in one season he happened to be the highest-paid rider in the world, whereas generally a contract increases from year to year. So it’s difficult for him to keep his feet on the ground. Contador is a hero in Spain. He’s God! Suddenly he’s got a lot of zeros after his name, and that’s his big problem."
doesn’t strike me as particularly convincing. I don’t think Contador is the kind of character who would let himself get carried away with his own reputation. On the contrary, he seems quite level-headed and sensible.
Of course it’s crystal clear that JB knows the real reason for the tension. Only an idiot wouldn’t. Yet he chooses not to address it in this interview, instead coming up rather pathetic alternative explanations.
Why?
by Mark T1979 on Oct 27, 2009 1:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Denial
He’s not going to acknowledge that he’s biased toward Armstrong or that his tactics at this year’s TdF weren’t designed to maximize the team’s strongest rider. Heck, I bet he struggles with this problem next year if Levi and Kloden are going better than Lance. He is incapable of not giving Lance the benefit of the doubt. AC had to take things into his own hands, because if he hadn’t. Lance would have ended up in yellow and JB would be expecting AC to play super domestique to a guy who couldn’t hold his wheel.
by MambaFan on Oct 27, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better to refrain from giving a full-length interview
without the diplomatic caution of a head of state when there are so many people prepared to take issue.
by Steno on Oct 27, 2009 2:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The official thingy quotte getter
Found here
It’s Dutch, or Belgium. Whatever you like
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Oct 27, 2009 2:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And Bruyneel raced for Rabo...
That was a HUGE shocker for me! (Not that kind to hear that)
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Oct 27, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Little 'mistake''/left out
"Contador was the strongest without discussion in the Tour, but he insists that he won the Tour alone. And that’s not absolutely true. Without the team he could have won, but not as comfortably. He started going on his own, together with his brother Fran (who is also his manager), his personal mechanic and his press officer," he said. “Personally, I found that unfortunate”
But Ted, Lopex, Reepp will correct me on this one
The other one aiming in a totally different direction:
He thinks that Contador’s problem is that "in one season he happened to be the highest-paid rider in the world, whereas generally a contract increases from year to year. So it’s difficult for him to keep his feet on the ground. Contador is a hero in Spain. He’s God! Suddenly he’s got a lot of zeros after his name, and that’s his big problem."
He doesn’t say he has a big problem, well he said that but not how it says here.
“It’ difficult to keep your feet on the ground” ending the quote
More general spoken.
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Oct 27, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Funny thing to me is that there seem to be a couple of minor digs from cycling news. Anyways, I think this is all pretty much common knowledge and will blow over pretty soon.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Oct 27, 2009 2:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Trying to see things from Bruyneel's perspective here....
Not easy to do but, here’s a question for you all:
Forget Lance. Would Contador have developed into such a stage racing stud if he had a different DS?
My answer: Honestly I don’t know. Yeah, Bert has hella talent. We all see that. But often it’s the little things that separate a champion from the rest. Like how Bert has worked so hard on his time trialing. Or learning Bruyneel’s strategies on how to win a Grand Tour-which it must be said that a lot of GC guys often waste energy at wrong times.
To take another look at this: would Valverde have won at least one or more Grand Tours before this year’s Vuelta if he had Bruyneel directing him?
One final thing: it seems obvious to me that Bert definitely acts like an alpha male and there just had to be a clash with him and Lance. It’s what distinguishes those two from the rest of the GC crowd in the last decade. That’s not to credit Bruyneel for that as Levi or Klodi, etc. don’t have that.
by ursula on Oct 27, 2009 3:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Fair question
My answer is yes. Frankly, I would love to see AC directed by Riis. To expound on my point, I think AC already had the tools to be a great stage racer when JB signed him. He could TT and he could climb (not to mention accelerate uphill like no one else). And he loves to race. So the basics were there. JB certainly deserves his share of the credit for developing him, along with Yates and Gallopin, but they started out with a pretty good stage racer so it’s hard to see someone else failing where they succeeded.
Better question is . . . could anyone see Levi or Kloden winning a GT under Bruyneel. I can’t but that says more about Levi and Kloden than about Bruyneel and his strategy.
by MambaFan on Oct 27, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I tend to agree with the last comment
As we have seen Levi not be able to do anything when given the team leader role. However, JB doesn’t always get the deserved credit. Yeah he is arrogant and all that and you may hate him because he is on LA’s side, but you still have to respect his abilities as a DS.
There will never be agreement on this question because frankly it involves LA who many people on here hate and Contador who often rarely gets bad mouthed on here.
by ncmussell on Oct 27, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t disrespect his abilities as a DS, I’m just not prepared to overstate them.
by MambaFan on Oct 27, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what Bruyneel's really saying"
“I let history and personal feelings get in the way of merit”
by R Mc on Oct 27, 2009 3:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
either that or
“when push came to shove, I couldn’t tell Armstrong what to do”
by R Mc on Oct 27, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
or both
spot on. Bruyneel knows who butters his bread.
"The road is our agony, but also our daily bread; and at night, when it is deserted and the moon glistens on the asphalt, the ridiculous dreams of racers like us pass up and down it."
--Dino Buzzati
by nrs5000 on Oct 27, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
While I love this site
This is often not the place to find the most objective commentary on the subject of JB/LA.
I like what R Mc says above though.
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Oct 27, 2009 3:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So
Where do I find the most objective commentary on the subject of JB/LA?
Staring at the swim team gets you killed by a gang of dancing ninja men who know how to twirl.
by TheFigurehead on Oct 27, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You'd probably have to go find a sage
in some godforbiden country…
De FIETS en anders NIETS
by Lopex on Oct 27, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not so sure...
Just because one side is more harshly criticized doesn’t mean people aren’t being fairly objective.
Sometimes there are valid reasons that one side of an issue gets more negative responses from people who are well-informed about it.
We’ve all seen coverage of an issue distorted because reporters try to give equal weight to two sides that are not equal. I want to try to use an example that won’t inflame most people’s feelings… like when they used to (and occasionally still do) give equal weight to the overwhelming scientific evidence of the health dangers of tobacco, balanced against the deceptive non-scientific claims of the tobacco companies.
Full disclosure: for several years, I was a pretty ardent LA fan, and I suppose by extension, I certainly supported JB. My own shift has been gradual.
by Larry in KC on Oct 27, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mine too.
I held out hope that LA would actually ride in support of AC at the TdF. He had completely lost me by the Prologue.
by MambaFan on Oct 27, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lost you by the prologue.
Objectivity on full display. Try here Figurehead.
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Oct 27, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry Officer, I didn't see your sirens.
Didn’t know you it was wrong of me to pinpoint when LA lost me as a fan. For future reference, perhaps you can let me know when is a good time to declare that he lost me as a fan. Or is that never allowed?
by MambaFan on Oct 27, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't display any sirens.
Just wondering wtf I missed during the prologue.
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Oct 27, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Less Snark then.
Didn’t read your post as a question. Based on my perspective, LA should have been under no illusion about who the team leader was going into the TdF. AC had won the last two GTs he entered and had been winning throughout the year. LA hadn’t won a GT or a significant race in 3 years. The comment that he was there to win, was pretty much told me all I needed to know about how the events at the TdF would unfold.
After he was beaten by 3 others on his team, but also the best stage racer in the world, he said it didn’t mean anything. That the race would still be decided on the road. When he grabbed those 41 seconds, his tune changed of course—now making his case for leadership of the team. Same when he came ever so close to grabbing the MJ. But when AC leap-frogged him, he screamed bloody murder (well that’s hyperbole, but you know what I mean).
But the turning point for me was the prologue. After he was beaten, he didn’t accept that reality. Put LA in AC’s place and he would have been crowing about how it was his team and he had just proven it on the road. That was my guess at the time. Later events (as I noted above) proved it.
by MambaFan on Oct 27, 2009 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yup + mucho
"…I saw bloody Cavendish coming, really fast…"
HH
by ELVISGOAT on Oct 27, 2009 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have got to be kidding
“After he was beaten, he didn’t accept that reality.”
Nobody, Nobody !, concedes the TDF after the prologue. The TDF is won and lost in the mountains and the long time trials, almost never in the first week. You expect Lance Armstrong, a seven 7 champion, to accept that reality. No fricking way. What makes Contador, Armstrong, Lemond and Hinault champions above the others is the relentless, all consuming effort to never quit and fight on to the very last day and the last breath in their body. ( The hatred of second place = Champion )
( I know that list needs another 20 names )
I waited a half an hour to give my two toddlers breakfast until I had my Eneco tour coverage sorted, then made sure I got them fed before the sprint. --- Bought With Blood. ..... Hmmm, my kinda people. If only they could explain to my wife why my bike belongs in the house and not the garage. --- Thevaro
by thevaro on Oct 27, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is no "LA"
in team.
"…I saw bloody Cavendish coming, really fast…"
HH
by ELVISGOAT on Oct 27, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have a point if we are talking about Andy Schleck. Lance was his teammate.
I expect a 38 year old man who hasn’t won a competitive race in three years, recovering from a broken collar bone, who happens to be on the same team with best stage racer in the CURRENT peloton (and not the 2005 peloton)-who also has won the last three GT’s he’s entered and is generally regarded as the best climber in the world, to recognize that after the prologue demonstrated he was, at best, the 4th strongest member of his team, to concede that it was AC’s team. If he couldn’t accept that reality, then he should have kept his ass in Texas. Or waited until he formed a new team. Take your pick.
There’s a difference between being competitive and in denial. IMO, Lance (along with JB) were the latter. But your mileage my vary.
by MambaFan on Oct 27, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Denial
Not just a river in Egypt.
"…I saw bloody Cavendish coming, really fast…"
HH
by ELVISGOAT on Oct 27, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you see the old man Cipollini race lately
He is as old as dirt and he wasn’t racing for second.
That is not Denial. That’s Championship attitude.
Did you see Hinault deal with that fan. He still thinks he’s King.
( and I know I am the only one that saw it this way but I think after the first mountain top finish Lance knew who was best and started falling into line. After the second mountain top finish Lance was following wheels while Alberto was kicking everyone’s butt. )
I waited a half an hour to give my two toddlers breakfast until I had my Eneco tour coverage sorted, then made sure I got them fed before the sprint. --- Bought With Blood. ..... Hmmm, my kinda people. If only they could explain to my wife why my bike belongs in the house and not the garage. --- Thevaro
by thevaro on Oct 27, 2009 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're not the only one
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Oct 28, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay I agree with this one
This wasn’t the first time Lance lost a TDF prologue to his own teammate. No way you concede leadership just because you lost the prologue.
Wenatchee Wonder FTW
by dees ees en drama on Oct 29, 2009 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
correction: prior to the 2009 TDF, conta had won 3 of the 4 GTs that he has ridden
2008: giro, vuelta – won
2007: tdf – won
2005: tdf – finished 31st, +1.03.25
(age 22)
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Oct 28, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My question was honest
And I see a small problem with judging the site based on individual opinions. Instead, there is something to be learned from the wisdom of crowds.
Staring at the swim team gets you killed by a gang of dancing ninja men who know how to twirl.
by TheFigurehead on Oct 27, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea? My answer was just as honest then.
I see a small problem with looking past the fact that I said I love this (fucking- for the less sensitive viewers) site.
The wisdom of crowds you say, then I would be listening to the fanatics that love Lance.
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Oct 27, 2009 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree it isn't, as blog sites usually aren't the most subjective sites
although this one is the most civil. I do see most people trying to be subjective about distinguishing between JB’s personality and his DS abilites though.
Dammit Elk! I don't care if it's your mating season, you are disturbing my peaceful sleep! Just STFU!
by Phil H. on Oct 27, 2009 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
*objective, duh
Dammit Elk! I don't care if it's your mating season, you are disturbing my peaceful sleep! Just STFU!
by Phil H. on Oct 27, 2009 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You did not see
the rant I just did not post…
"…I saw bloody Cavendish coming, really fast…"
HH
by ELVISGOAT on Oct 27, 2009 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you, Bruce.
"…I saw bloody Cavendish coming, really fast…"
HH
by ELVISGOAT on Oct 27, 2009 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the objective, unbiased truth happens to be heavily pro-Contador in this case
There is no logical way around the fact that JB and LA acted like clowns during the Tour. Contador did his level best to keep his head on.
Wenatchee Wonder FTW
by dees ees en drama on Oct 29, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if Johan Bryneel thinks something like this ...
the young man … after having major surgery for a cerebral cavernoma, after crashing and losing consciousness in 2006, after being mentioned with Operation Puerto riders … I hired him, I coached him, I stuck by him despite the rumors, as part of my team and with my support he won great races. We won 3 grand tours together. After all that maybe the kid owes me a little more loyalty.
Maybe if he would have done it, ’ my-way’, he would have allowed me to give the deference to my friend and 7 time(!) TDF winner and still have won the TDF by 4 minutes with joy, gratitude and respect for all. I think every coach/directory that has won the super bowl or world series 8 times would expect the young prodigy to listen to him and respect him. … not to brood and frown because he has not been crowned king as convincingly as he would like.
I waited a half an hour to give my two toddlers breakfast until I had my Eneco tour coverage sorted, then made sure I got them fed before the sprint. --- Bought With Blood. ..... Hmmm, my kinda people. If only they could explain to my wife why my bike belongs in the house and not the garage. --- Thevaro
by thevaro on Oct 27, 2009 11:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if Johan Bryneel thinks something like this ...
No.
"…I saw bloody Cavendish coming, really fast…"
HH
by ELVISGOAT on Oct 27, 2009 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Every world championship coach/director/owner does
…. and you know it.
I waited a half an hour to give my two toddlers breakfast until I had my Eneco tour coverage sorted, then made sure I got them fed before the sprint. --- Bought With Blood. ..... Hmmm, my kinda people. If only they could explain to my wife why my bike belongs in the house and not the garage. --- Thevaro
by thevaro on Oct 27, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, then, maybe he just thinks...
That winning by three or four minutes is enough, it didn’t have to be seven or ten or whatever it was AC aspired to.
by tgartner on Oct 28, 2009 3:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Problem with the cold numerical calculation
“he could afford not to take a minute here because he was going to take two minutes there” is that it’s completely false. You can never be sure about not having an unexpected bad day. We’ve been over this a thousand times though.
I’ll offer one interpretation though. JB’s race-winning formula is based on the empirical evidence of one rider, Lance Armstrong. Contador is another individual. So when JB says “you should ride like this, then you’re sure to win” the implication is: LA would. Perhaps Contador doesn’t yet know his body to the same extent as LA does his to be comfortable with this. Or even worse , he knows his body doesn’t work that way and feels the strategy is dangerous too him.
Add a little weariness of the LA/JB relationship and Contadors actions don’t seem so much the childish tantrums that JB paints them as but rather as mature calculations.
by Jens on Oct 28, 2009 3:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm in with Jens summation as well
The only ones mentioning Contadors immaturity are JB and LA.
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Oct 28, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And yet...
Bruyneel’s calculations seem to have been more accurate. Alberto DIDN’T need the small amounts of time he gained from his unsanctioned attacks.
by tgartner on Oct 28, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is no way of telling if that is true
If he hadn’t gained those little bits of time, the situation would have been totally different.
by tedvdw on Oct 28, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At the time, I really thought he was going for the team leadership role
Lance Armstrong in yellow could have been poisonous for his chances. Lance wears yellow, oh hey guess what it’s your job to defend the yellow Bert.
I don’t think Johan would have actually been that blindly biased, but I can’t blame Contador for mistrusting him.
Wenatchee Wonder FTW
by dees ees en drama on Oct 29, 2009 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe had the coach been more of a team player the younglin would have listened to him
but good ol coach let his loyal commitment get in the way of making the best decisions for the younglin and the team in general. But you really can’t compare NFL and MLB teams to Tour teams, yes teams are important in cycling, but it is still very much an individual sport. One rider can win the Tour, a group of 20-40 win baseball and football titles. Those guys need to be coached as a whole, a cycling team can be split and still finish 1st and 3rd.
Dammit Elk! I don't care if it's your mating season, you are disturbing my peaceful sleep! Just STFU!
by Phil H. on Oct 27, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bill Walton on John Wooden
“he was a tyrant”
I think the team concept is absolutely crucial in cycling. Cadel what do you think ?
I waited a half an hour to give my two toddlers breakfast until I had my Eneco tour coverage sorted, then made sure I got them fed before the sprint. --- Bought With Blood. ..... Hmmm, my kinda people. If only they could explain to my wife why my bike belongs in the house and not the garage. --- Thevaro
by thevaro on Oct 27, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah it's important, but the team doesn't have to have much chemistry
like Astana, while in baseball and football, or basketball a championship winning team will always have good chemistry. So JB can stay loyal to one side and still be successful, while if a MLB or NFL coach favors one guy over another in an argument the team will become separated and start losing.
Dammit Elk! I don't care if it's your mating season, you are disturbing my peaceful sleep! Just STFU!
by Phil H. on Oct 28, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not necessarily true
lots of Jordan’s team-mates couldn’t stand him personally, but they sucked it up.
by R Mc on Oct 28, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So just so I understand
Alberto was supposed to do what? How was he supposed to show his deference? Not be competitive at Arcalis? Or ride tempo on Verbier? Or maybe he could have paced Lance on Col d’ Rom and Colombier? Or not ridden very hard at the final ITT?
I’m trying to take your position seriously, but I’m struggling. On the one hand, we should understand that Lance was never going to accept reality (that AC was the strongest rider), but somehow AC was supposed to play along with JB’s strategy because eventually . . . what? Lance would accept reality? You just said he wouldn’t. Seems to me JB and Lance are pissed that AC read the situation perfectly.
by MambaFan on Oct 28, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Time waits for no man... good quote.
Whatever the situation and whatever we know, Bert couldn’t take the chance of playing team ball. Leadership was up for grabs, that much we know.
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Oct 28, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure if you understand the quote.
by MambaFan on Oct 28, 2009 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure I do, maybe I'm just not being clear or you're bent on reading my comments one way.
Maybe you applied in a different sense. What I meant to say is that Contador had to seize the lead from LA and put time into the other leaders by attacking when he saw the opportunity. As opposed to waiting for JB -who he maybe didn’t trust;) -to tell him when to go.
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Oct 28, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not what I meant.
The quote basically means that man cannot stop time and remain in a particular moment. Lance wants to recapture 2005 or before. But it is 2009 and soon to be 2010. At least that’s how I view LA and JB’s actions—trying to recapture old glory. It is a nostalgic view, but I’m glad they will be able to play out there fantasy on another team and won’t harm anyone else’s ambitions (anyone joining Radio Shack thinking that the road will decide or any of the other nonsense spouted this year during the TdF gets no sympathy from me).
As for AC, he in fact had to seize the moment, but the appropriate quote for him would be carpe diem!
by MambaFan on Oct 28, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a rider, I think Alberto did what every champion would do,
Attack and win.
I just find it hard to understand how someone who climbs better than everyone, TT better than everyone except Cance, could look so sorrowful when he, for 75% of the race, was in full control with his specialties ( huge mountains) sitting in front of him.
The ’everyone’s against me’ attitude fed into the media and under cut his director who had supportive of him after injury and accusation and even gave him a shot at team leadership very early in his career.
I waited a half an hour to give my two toddlers breakfast until I had my Eneco tour coverage sorted, then made sure I got them fed before the sprint. --- Bought With Blood. ..... Hmmm, my kinda people. If only they could explain to my wife why my bike belongs in the house and not the garage. --- Thevaro
by thevaro on Oct 28, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"The ’everyone’s against me’ attitude"
was not fed into the media but instead was a complete fabrication by the media and American fans. Not one shred of evidence for it. Not a peep (or a tweet) out of Contador during the Tour.
by tedvdw on Oct 28, 2009 5:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
indeed
(though “some” American – & actually probably some non-American – fans, I’d hasten to add)
by civetta on Oct 28, 2009 7:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
POst Tour interviews
like that in Cycle Sport make it sound like he was really feeling isolated.
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris... on Oct 28, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that's the key
I noticed that Bert’s comment about “it’s different on a personal level” did not come until after the Tour.
I really miss liking Lance Armstrong. Now I can’t wait to see him get beat next year.
Wenatchee Wonder FTW
by dees ees en drama on Oct 29, 2009 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
bruyneel "supportive" of conta "after injury"???
do you want to get your facts straight. conta had his seizure and surgery in 2004 while riding for liberty seguros. conta came back from his injury in nov 2004 and was racing in 2005 and 2006 for liberty seguros.
bruyneel had nothing to do with conta at the time.
and what “shot at team leadership” are you talking about early in conta’s career? levi was suppose to be the team leader at the 2007 paris-nice and tdf….
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Oct 28, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have my facts stright. You're just missing the point.
Point 1) Given the major surgery in 2004 and the crash and unconscious incident on 2006 and the Puerto rumors … , hiring AC was a huge risk. ( injury and rumor follow from your last team, obviously )
Point 2) ( and I think you are making it for me ) Levi was supposed to be the leader in 2007 but as Alberto emerged he was not forced to stay in Levi’s service but was allowed to act as a co-leader and eventually win the TDF !
Under Johan Bruyneel Alberto went from a very bad perilous situation to winning the race of his dreams ! Is their a debt there. I would have felt that way. ???
I waited a half an hour to give my two toddlers breakfast until I had my Eneco tour coverage sorted, then made sure I got them fed before the sprint. --- Bought With Blood. ..... Hmmm, my kinda people. If only they could explain to my wife why my bike belongs in the house and not the garage. --- Thevaro
by thevaro on Oct 29, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was not forced....
Of course he wasn’t forced, Levi couldn’t make the cut. That happens from time to time. Levi was given the leadership nod because he was more experienced and accomplished in GTs at that point. Made a ton of sense. Once it was clear he (Levi) wasn’t the strongest in the mountains, the team’s strategy changed to ride for the strongest rider. Same thing happened with Garmin this year. VdV was the leader until Verbier sorted things out.
Astana didn’t ride on behalf of AC until he took yellow. In fact, one could argue that on Stage 3, they rode AGAINST his interest.
by MambaFan on Oct 29, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course forced.
We have all seen a leader crash, bonk ,flat or just have a bad day and the director orders the boys to drop back, loose time, and pace their leader back up. It’s not a request.
Levi was 31 seconds behind Alberto after 2218 miles, including a questionable 10 second penalty.
To say that Levi was not up to winning the 2007 TDF seems a bit odd in that light..
I waited a half an hour to give my two toddlers breakfast until I had my Eneco tour coverage sorted, then made sure I got them fed before the sprint. --- Bought With Blood. ..... Hmmm, my kinda people. If only they could explain to my wife why my bike belongs in the house and not the garage. --- Thevaro
by thevaro on Oct 29, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get your general point.
I was talking about the specifics of the 2007 TdF. When the road went up and the attacks started, Levi couldn’t match the accelerations (though to his credit he was stronger than AC on Stage 17 (when AC rain out of energy trying to dislodge Rasmussen). Levi wasn’t told to hold back on the final TT or Stage 17 and as you note got back to within 31 seconds of AC.
So maybe that’s a bad example, from both our perspectives. But I take your general point (e.g., 2009 GIro 3 people pacing Lance up a mountain, with Levi and Horner alone).
by MambaFan on Oct 30, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Questionable penalty?
wasn’t that the time he got the 70mph, 10 minute saddle adjustment? Done without a spanner. 10 seconds seemed a pretty generous penalty.
by Monty. on Oct 31, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We do not know what sorts of promises were made
to Contador before Armstrong’s return about the sort of team resources he’d have available to him.
If you’re wearing the x1 on your dossard and you see two of YOUR team-mates riding in (and eventually contributing to) a break that hurts you, you have legitimate grounds for complaint.
The more I think about what happened on stage 3, the more difficult it becomes to maintain the position that Brew-strong meant to support Contador as Astana’s leader. Instead, I think it more plausible to suggest that they were trying to break him.
Sure, Contador screwed up by missing the split, but I’m not sure that it’s in the best interests of a team committed to his leadership to “teach him a lesson” in the manner they chose.
Especially since the salient lesson for Contador was “I can’t trust these guys to protect me.”
by R Mc on Oct 28, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What alternative was there?
Ever?
You had two guys who each won the Tour the last time they attempted it. WHom do you support? Contador’s claim was along the lines of “I was here first” since Lance had left the team. Lance’s claim was more like “I was REALLY here first,” for obvious reasons. Bruyneel tried to have it both ways, but that was never going to succeed. He should have split the team in half, publicly saying there would be two squads, and told both riders to deal with it. Might have worked, maybe not, but it couldn’t have been worse than pretending Lance would ride for Contador or that other riders would be loyal to AC over Lance.
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris... on Oct 28, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
bah . . . not saying this is a realistic expectation
but Bruyneel has shown himself capable of forcing erstwhile team-leaders to knuckle under for Armstrong in the past.
Therefore: if Contador is the leader—in the well-known meaning of that term within the Bruyneel system—then that means that we should have seen Armstrong riding like Cancellara to set up Contador.
The non-occurrence of that event is more testimony to what’s going on with Armstrong and Bruyneel (and the widely rumored possibility that it has ALWAYS been Armstrong calling the shots) than it says anything about Contador.
by R Mc on Oct 28, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
Ah, power. It shifts ever so slightly after each race.
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris... on Oct 28, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you.
Stage 3 LA went in the move to try to get time over AC. He was riding against him then. I don’t know that I think LA thought AC would pop, just that he stood a chance of getting the upper hand in the team dynamics. So he could turn to AC and say… “See, that’s what settling it on the road looks like. Now work for ME in the mountains.”
As for “teaching him a lesson” does anyone truly think that JB would use a stage of the TdF to teach his “team leader” a lesson? We all saw Paris-Nice.
"…I saw bloody Cavendish coming, really fast…"
HH
by ELVISGOAT on Oct 28, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you scroll up you'll see I said that no-one would accept that reality
after the PROLOGUE. Also above is where I said that Lance started to fall in line after the first mountain top finish and after the second he was with the program. After Verbier Lance said “I don’t have the acceleration that Alberto or Andy [Schleck] has. I’m proud of him [Contador]; he rode great.”
… not to mention he has said before during and after the tour that Alberto was the greatest stage racer in the world. He wanted to beat him but that goes along with that Champion-Never quit stuff I was writing about earlier.
I waited a half an hour to give my two toddlers breakfast until I had my Eneco tour coverage sorted, then made sure I got them fed before the sprint. --- Bought With Blood. ..... Hmmm, my kinda people. If only they could explain to my wife why my bike belongs in the house and not the garage. --- Thevaro
by thevaro on Oct 28, 2009 2:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question:
What has Alberto Contador accomplished without Johan Bruyneel as the DS?
crickets
by agl on Oct 28, 2009 12:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There's not enough samle size for that question to be asked
seeing he has only raced one GT without JB as DS(his first ever, finished 31 at 05 Tour), he only rode his first 4 years as a professional without him. But if you really want to know what he accomplished during those years well: stage win at 05 TdU, stage and overall at Setmana Catalana, stage at Pais Vasco, stage and overall at Tour of Romandie, in 06 he won stages at the Tour of Romandie and Tour de Suisse. Yet I won’t deny he made AC a better rider, he proably did, but that doesn’t mean he managed him perfectly this year. You can ask that question again next year when Bert wins his 3rd Tour, this time without him, or he doesn’t win. Then the question will have more merit.
Dammit Elk! I don't care if it's your mating season, you are disturbing my peaceful sleep! Just STFU!
by Phil H. on Oct 28, 2009 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus
Tour of Poland 2003, Stage 8
various other classification jerseys
Spanish Nation Time Trial sub-23 championship is also worth mentioning
Bruyneel didn’t spend much time in the DS seat in Contador’s races other than in the Tour in 2009.
by Steno on Oct 28, 2009 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was riding in the car behind Lance at the 2009 TdF.
Certainly at Annecy. And also on Stage 17. Seemed weird at the time (they hadn’t announced the new team yet).
But as I note below, Yates and Gallopin were DS when AC won at the Giro and Vuelta. And I think a majority of the races he won under the Discovery and Astana banners.
by MambaFan on Oct 28, 2009 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2008 Giro D'Italia and Vuelta a Espana
Yates and Gallopin respectively were DS.
by MambaFan on Oct 28, 2009 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No matter who was in the car or the ds of record, JB was the director and architect.
I think that is true on all teams. There is one executive DS and the others DSs follow his directions … or a job change would be in the near future.
I waited a half an hour to give my two toddlers breakfast until I had my Eneco tour coverage sorted, then made sure I got them fed before the sprint. --- Bought With Blood. ..... Hmmm, my kinda people. If only they could explain to my wife why my bike belongs in the house and not the garage. --- Thevaro
by thevaro on Oct 28, 2009 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They might have a direction but they don't have a phone glued to their ear and being exactly like Bruyneel
different people just have different ways of doing things and Yates and Gallopin aren’t going to be Johaan jrs.
If Bruyneel really wanted to be a good DS, he would have been with Contador and giving him good advice especially in the Giro last year when he was out of shape and just coming back.
by Vlaanderen90 on Oct 28, 2009 5:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is what im thinking
Hes always been in a system with Bruyneel. For him to say he got the win on his own is foolish. Bruyneel’s a smart director, and Contador should not think for a second that his accomplishments are not a product of Bruyneel’s system. Talent is no excuse for somplete and utter arrogance, and it doesn’t matter who is acting as ds in one race or not, its bruyneel’s system that seems to have the success. Contador’s talent will carry him far on his own, but im sorry, im just so sick of this punk.
by agl on Oct 28, 2009 7:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so when did contador ever say he got the win on his own?
I’ve never once seen a quote of contador that remotely resembles that notion.
by yeehoo on Oct 28, 2009 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd go as far as to say that during Armstrong and Bruyneel's tasteless twitters during the race
I was super impressed by Bert’s dignified silence. He did his talking on the road.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
by Seahorse on Oct 28, 2009 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The one problem is
After a big win you are always supposed to thank your team. It may be a formality, it may not always be justified but it is the job of every pro, teamcaptains especially. Conta was probably not in the right mental place to do so and failed to be as vocal enough about this he should have.
It was understandable but not 100% professional and it unfortunately opened the window for some snarky comments.
by Jens on Oct 28, 2009 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair call...
It was an awkward situation all round I’m sure, but ‘thank you’ costs nothing except when you can’t bring yourself to say it..
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
by Seahorse on Oct 28, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that may be true but
that’s a long jump from saying he claimed to win it on his own. I’ve never seen anything like this statement from him. The hardest times were in the hotel and such, yes, but again that was not at all saying or implying that he had no team help.
by yeehoo on Oct 28, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
im not saying he did, that was unfair of me
but im pulling that from his attitude, i think hes full of himself, and maybe he has the right, but the bickering on that team was just sickening, but hey so it goes sometimes.
by agl on Oct 28, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he did thank his teammates individually each evening, or so said zubeldia
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Oct 28, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't doubt it
but individually does nothing for you when the PR war is fought in the media.
by Jens on Oct 28, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is there a distinction in terms of the language of various media?
I just mean, that perhaps our knowledge has holes, because except for a small number Spanish is not the language that we’re reading or listening to re. cycling.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
by Seahorse on Oct 28, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I seem to recall Spanish post tour interviews
reported and (sometimes badly) translated into english.
by Jens on Oct 28, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Therein lies part of the problem...
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
by Seahorse on Oct 28, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Conta definitely
thanked his team in interviews and often talked about his strong team …. maybe less so as the Tour (and nastiness) progressed
Moo
by Willj on Oct 28, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ill agree with that too
no one in the situation has impressed me at all, Contador makes some good points
by agl on Oct 28, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He never says stuff like that, ever.
In fact, we know from one of the riders that he makes sure to thank each guy personally.
by Steno on Oct 28, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
3 years with bruyneel, 4+ years with saiz
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Oct 28, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He never said he got the win on his own.
That’s a fabrication from Bruyneel and Armstrong.
by MambaFan on Oct 28, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Contador never was quoted as saying that he won the Tour on his own. His words were that he felt "isolated" during the Tour when he was off the bike. He hasn't "always been in a system with Bruyneel" as you say. His career began under Saiz.
Agl, Contador has never been quoted as saying that he won the Tour on his own. His actual words are that he felt “isolated” when he was off of the bike during the Tour.
I fear that your need to refer to Contador as a “punk” says more about you than it does about him. I think he’s approached the entire Tour drama with maturity beyond his years AND with class that hasn’t been exhibited by the more experienced and mistake free Armstrong and Bruyneel. He kept his head and did exactly what he needed to do to win and most importantly he let the road decide along with let his legs do his talking all through the Tour while Armstrong twittered away like a nervous schoolgirl who had just gotten dumped by her boyfriend, trying her….err-his best to spin the events in his favor to save face and sully the character of the upstart that refused to capitulate to his greatness.
by Angliru on Oct 30, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it says everything about me
i fully understand bruyneel is out of line, but i also believe contador has a sense of entitlement, and i personally dont like it. i backed off my statement already, what more can i do. i probably should stop making such irrational/opinionated comments considering i tend to piss some people off. Ill say it for the record, Contador never said he won the tour on his own, but i bet he believes it.
by agl on Oct 30, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"but I bet he believes it"
Because LA&JB said so?
Got it.
by Bruce Suomi on Oct 30, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personal opinion
i am not a Lance or a Bruyneel fan, just for the record, dont like any of em
by agl on Oct 31, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe that whomever was the DS for races operation under Bruyneel's management
They were no doubt under marching orders about the basic outline of stage racing and were made to follow that outline within reason. But, in regards to the situation between Bert and LA it should be clear that Bruyneel is out to make money so from that standpoint, he’s going to always go with LA because that is where the money is, regardless of who is the best rider. Pro cycling is about money in the end unfortunately.
If I just had one more gear, I...
by SpunOut on Oct 28, 2009 3:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh for the heady days of the 2007 Tour
When Discovery’s Alberto Contador time trials to victory with Johan and Lance following in the car behind cheering him on…….
Well done Humo on what seems a bit of a scoop – a very candid interview, but the polemica sells.
Leaving the AC stuff to one side there is so much more in the article – Lance nearly quitting, an admission there was “havoc” over team selection before the tour, a colourful section on his relationship with the eminence gris that is Proskoerin (and a damning indictment of Iglinksy), the price he exacted for Vino’s return (the new team gets the car park!), that Wagtmans has also been unceremoniously dumped.
What is missing is anything about Gusev and the Cas decison. 650,000 grand – the kind of sum most people get sacked for losing their bosses. I remember it caused apoplexy in Kazachstan. Surely this had some effect on his relationship with the Kazachs, but it isnt mentioned.
by andrewp on Oct 28, 2009 4:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow - serious polemica territory
But, unless there is a translation issue, JB is being seriously rude / unprofessional about AC, in a way that can only come back to haunt him. JB accuses AC of being blinded by money, of being immature and foolish, and of being a lone wolf. Pretty amazing stuff to put out in the press. And you have to think that AC is going to go after Lance personally, cannibal-like, in the grand tours. “It’s hurting you now, Lance? How about when I stand up and go???” Followed by whatever the Spanish word for bayatch is.
Honestly, beyond the fact that he was disobeying non-sensical team orders, I don’t know how anyone can think AC did anything wrong at the tdf. When you are team leader, and feel strong, you attack. If your team can come with you, great – if not it is your lookout. Every time AC attacked, he put time into the only non-Astana contender (Schlecklet) and thus made an Astana win more likely. What can a DS possibly (honestly) object to?
by addict on Oct 28, 2009 5:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Translation issues
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Oct 28, 2009 5:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is well within your grasp...
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
by Seahorse on Oct 28, 2009 5:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty please, Frinking?
Because when I read the article, my first thought was that something like the google gizmo was used to translate the original :-(.
Would you mind just pointing out any bits that seem especially bad (or misleading)…?
by Lou... on Oct 28, 2009 6:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I concur...
Start marking HSC Saturday… a warm-up is good ;)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
by Seahorse on Oct 28, 2009 6:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One quote has to have the unfortunate thing behind him so:
“Contador was the strongest without discussion in the Tour, but he insists that he won the Tour alone. And that’s not absolutely true. Without the team he could have won, but not as comfortably. He started going on his own, together with his brother Fran (who is also his manager), his personal mechanic and his press officer,” he said. "Personally, I found that unfortunate"
Second quote:
“Contador is a hero in Spain. No not a hero: A God! Suddenly he’s got a lot of zeros after his name and that is the big problem. You can make a lot of money in cycling but most of the time it increases year from year. He went in one season from a little boy with a small contract to best paid rider of the world. It’s hard to keep your feet on the ground if that happens”
So it’s not a personal attack. Just a general finding
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Oct 28, 2009 6:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know what you are trying to say
Perhaps that not translation was an issue but selective quoting?
by tedvdw on Oct 28, 2009 6:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok maybe it was that. But I founded the Dutch quottes much calmer than the English.
Maybe that’s just me
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Oct 28, 2009 6:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could be
(I was genuinely asking, not suggesting, about translation vs. quoting)
Anyway, the controversial pieces in English were not on the Dutch summary page on humo.be, were they? Hard to compare that way.
by tedvdw on Oct 28, 2009 6:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only the tension part can not be found on the hubo site
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Oct 28, 2009 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no maybe it's just better journalism ... or not.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
by Seahorse on Oct 28, 2009 6:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are not just translation issues,
but some of the facts vary from versions in one language or the other.
by Steno on Oct 28, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think you can have a 'general' finding from one person...
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
by Seahorse on Oct 28, 2009 6:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ha
It’s a personal attack dressed up as a generalization(i.e. “under those circumstances probably anyone would be an asshat, but that still means he’s an asshat all the same”). Fairly common rhetorical technique.
by civetta on Oct 28, 2009 6:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For journalists, politicians and parents and their children ...
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
by Seahorse on Oct 28, 2009 6:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
business, public sector, school staff rooms, anywhere ;-)
by civetta on Oct 28, 2009 6:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was self-interest that made me ignore teachers...
but yes to all that (or them)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
by Seahorse on Oct 28, 2009 6:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's clearly a personal attack...
… JB calls him “a little boy”…
… JB says “We all have the experience: we don’t make mistakes anymore; while Alberto still has much to learn.”
… JB massively rewrites history: “There were eight candidates for the overall win, and four of them were riding in my team. I didn’t care who won it, if it was one of Astana.” I don’t think ANYONE who watched the tour would agree with that
by addict on Oct 28, 2009 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Example of showing how to read and interpret things they way you want.
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Oct 28, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but really, "massively" rewrites history?
I remember counting about 8 real contenders at the start, and 4 possibles on Astana.
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Oct 28, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I remember 99% of the cycling world snickering
and saying it would take a massive fluke or a framepump for anyone but Contador to win.
by Jens on Oct 28, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well yea, but podium spots count too.
So it’s not eight guys gunning for 1st necessarily.
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Oct 28, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But he says "for the overall win"
and since when do podium spots matter in the US Discostana universe?
by Jens on Oct 28, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
overall, podium or top 5
it doesn’t matter what is going on in the minds of those in the US Discotana universe. In JB’s mind there were about 8 contenders at the start and I recall about the same, even if we knew Conta would win barring disaster. LL, LA, AC, Kloden, AS, Menchov, Sastre, Evans- I don’t think that was far fetched or massively off to look at those guys as contenders at the beginning of the race.
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Oct 28, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what? at ASTLAberry-discovered-going-postal?
Did Lance ever work for Landis or Heras or Azevedo’s GC before this Tour (honest question)? I remember him trying to give Floyd the stage the day he outsprinted Kloden at the line, and being happy that Geore and Poppo won stages in breaks or similar situations, but never do I remember turning a pedal for them when it wasn’t in his interest as well, or pacing them up climbs. In the old days they all took a turn at the front, popped, and then LA went. They all rode for him, and Lance never refused to take time if it was there for him to take (except maybe for the last stage or two if he had ten minutes and did not want to bother to attack for 30 seconds on cat 1s or non mountain top finishes). Why could Lance not do that for AC, just selflessly ramp up the speed and launch the team leader and best rider into orbit. He turned a race into a photo op and a publicity stunt, and issued taunts and veiled insults through twitter and the media like a child who knew he couldn’t fight his battles on the playground.
If it was one for all why did Kloden pace LA up climbs that day LA had cracked badly (I believe it was 15 to Verbier, cou,ld be 17 though)? Kloden may have cracked on Ventoux, but at the time shouldn’t Kloden have been allowed to ride for his own place in the GC if it was ‘4 guys who could win and it would be decided on the road’, or would you apply JB’s statement differently? Did that only apply for the top place, and then everyone else was to work for Lance, or did it never apply at all and was just a fabrication after the fact?
by Nomer on Oct 28, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Referring to a grown man as a “little boy” isn’t personal?
by Angliru on Oct 30, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope. The little boy was my translation.
I have put the little in there because than it was clear he was talking about 2 ‘stages’ in hi career.
1 The normal cyclist
2 The GT winner
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Oct 30, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My only comment on this:
If you think Brett Farve (for Americans here who follow Football) has been out of line for dithering about ‘coming back’ until the last possible moment and then expecting to be pushed to the head of the line on some team (and in fact having that happen), then you pretty much should feel that LA was similarly out of line from the get-go with Astana this year and be sympathetic to Contador not liking the situation.
If you feel Farve was within his rights, then you probably will see Contador as an uppity youngster who should learn his place.
If you really see those two situations as utterly incomparable, I don’t understand the principle on the basis of which you’re judging either of them.
by Ed K on Oct 28, 2009 9:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's the problem:
In Farve’s case, he was a better quarterback than T. Jackson and demonstrated it in practice and on the field. In Armstrong’s case, he was not the better rider as was demonstrated on the road throughout the year. How many stages or overall victories did Lance have? How many did AC have? In the past 3 years how many GTs had Lance won? How many had AC won?
The reality is that Lance was looking solely to time past to justify usurping the leadership of the team. In short, for him, the past was the present, and the present was irrelevant.
by MambaFan on Oct 28, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was really thinking about last year as much as this year re: Farve
And I still think that as an organization Green Bay had a very real point in saying, ‘Sorry, thanks but no thanks. You left, we moved on, and we’re not going to blow up the development of our future because you changed your mind at the last minute.’
But as I said above, there really are two ways of seeing that. And I think that, in the end, your view of whether Armstrong had the right to come back and fight for a leadership position on what had become AC’s team will probably determine your view of whether Armstrong was being a good competitor or overstepping an important line.
Anyone who’s been around for awhile can guess where I come down on that, but mostly I don’t want to get involved in the ‘argument’ about that. I do want to suggest that the intractability of the argument may have less to do with recent events or even what happened during the tour than it does with how many of us felt going into the tour about the whole Astana situation.
In that regard, I agree with sminer that the judgements getting expressed during the tour were in many case made beforehand. But I’m not sure they had to be terribly old. I think, just as Farve’s ‘comeback’ changed some minds about him, LA’s may also have made some people uncomfortable. And that really is all I have to contribute.
by Ed K on Oct 28, 2009 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess my point was your analogy is imperfect to the current case.
To make it work, the incumbent quarterback would have to have won the Super Bowl once after Farve retired and was All Pro and made it the conference finals two of the previous 3 years. Farve returns but only plays sparingly during pre-season, gets minutes during blowouts, and then when the team makes it to the 2009 Super Bowl, claims that he should be starting over the guy that got the team there.
It doesn’t turn simply on him wanting to return to the sport (no one could begrudge him that). It turns on that he wasn’t the best guy on the team ALL YEAR. At no point. Never. The TdF comes around and he’s staking a claim to the leadership. At that point, would you give him the ball, or the guy who got you there?
by MambaFan on Oct 29, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Analogies, by definition, have flaws...
…mine concerned the question of whether one saw AC as having been justified in feeling unhappy from the get go. Your considerations have to do with whether AC was justified doing what he did in the TdF. I never much cared about that, as it seems fairly obvious to me.
by Ed K on Oct 29, 2009 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually my...
point wasn’t about AC’s feelings at all or his actions at the TdF. But I see where I got away from your initial point. I still think the Farve analogy is a relatively weak one (since the quarterback at any of the teams he was considering hadn’t accomplished anything of note—which I think affects how one perceives how deferential either AC or LA should have been to each other), but I’m not going to belabor the point further.
by MambaFan on Oct 29, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Lance was looking solely to time past"
Time present and time past
Are both perhaps present in time future,
And time future contained in time past.
…
Go, go, go, said the bird: human kind
Cannot bear very much reality.
Time past and time future
What might have been and what has been
Point to one end, which is always present.
…
Yet the enchainment of past and future
Woven in the weakness of the changing body,
Protects mankind from heaven and damnation
Which flesh cannot endure.
Time past and time future
Allow but a little consciousness.
by LurkerMcLurkerson on Oct 28, 2009 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BAH FAVRE!
go packers this weekend
Dammit Elk! I don't care if it's your mating season, you are disturbing my peaceful sleep! Just STFU!
by Phil H. on Oct 28, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or you can scratch your head like me and sit in the middle of the issue.
I’m not a fence sitterby any means but I don’t pretend to know enough to despise one side or the other.
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Oct 28, 2009 11:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Or you can just
count the days until April. The flahaute crowd lets their legs do the talking.
"The road is our agony, but also our daily bread; and at night, when it is deserted and the moon glistens on the asphalt, the ridiculous dreams of racers like us pass up and down it."
--Dino Buzzati
by nrs5000 on Oct 28, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So far so good
Although this subject always gets a bit heated, I appreciate that people have kept perspective throughout.
Still, where the hell is ELPMO? I can’t seem to find the picture. He always helps remind us not to take things too seriously. Especially when you tickle him.
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris... on Oct 28, 2009 12:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is more of a EJBPMO thread
although I’m not sure there is a logo for EJBPMO
Dammit Elk! I don't care if it's your mating season, you are disturbing my peaceful sleep! Just STFU!
by Phil H. on Oct 28, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Muahah podiumcafe is infiltrating google.
Just search elpmo pictures and most of them are coming from podiumcafe.. Although I have no clue what so ever what Elpmo means?
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Oct 28, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everything Lance Pisses Me Off
Dammit Elk! I don't care if it's your mating season, you are disturbing my peaceful sleep! Just STFU!
by Phil H. on Oct 28, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So EJBPMO=
Everything Jens Beard pisses me off?
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Oct 28, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If that makes you happy, then yes
Dammit Elk! I don't care if it's your mating season, you are disturbing my peaceful sleep! Just STFU!
by Phil H. on Oct 28, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I'm going to faint!
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Oct 28, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have to watch GH's documentary to see Elmo in live action, hilarious.
but ELPMO will return, no doubt.
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Oct 28, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A ludicrous part of this affair is the role played by Twitter.
Tweets have influenced public opinion to the point where stones thrown from the unassailable fortress of 140 characters have carried as much (more?) weight as press conferences to which the professional media was called appropriately in advance, and in which Q and A was allowed.
by Steno on Oct 28, 2009 7:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A not-too-serious, but effective treatment for
arrogant naughty people is to tickle them, all in good fun, till they almost wet their pants, then steal their shoes and run away. It really works. Try it!
by Steno on Oct 28, 2009 7:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I forgot,
you have to tackle them first so they fall tummy-up.
by Steno on Oct 28, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about
sneaking up behind their girlfriend with a bottle of brown hair dye?
by Monty. on Oct 29, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and when the therapy is all finished
you make Cherry Garcia hot fudge sundaes for everyone.
by Steno on Oct 31, 2009 3:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bruyneel the Greatest Team Manager of this generation
Who’s Alberto Contador to question the tactical prowess of Johan and his team. Where was el pistolero when Johan was winning races, placing riders high on gc in both grand tours and classics. I respect Contador for what he has achieved, but for him to say he won le tour single handed with the help of his spanish armada, now that’s disrespecting Johan. Let’s not forget, Johan’s palmareas – 7 TDF, 1 Giro, 1 Vuelta and couple of Classics including Dauphine, Paris Nice, etc.
All the other guys who’ve left Johan have ended up in the refuse dump: Hamilton, Heras, Landis, Savodelli, etc – where are they now?
by joeyc on Oct 31, 2009 4:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
it is quite evident you have not read this thread
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Nov 1, 2009 10:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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