Why Lance Armstrong is the Most Improved Rider (in my opinion)
by joeyc on Oct 31, 2009 4:06 PM EDT
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Few of us no doubt remember back in '97 when we heard the news that LA was no longer regarded with the living. His french team forsook him to the Grim Reaper however, even Death was no match for Lance.
A couple of months later he returns on the and finishs fourth in the Vuelta and from then on won Le Tour for seven consecutive years thereby earning him the title "The Boss." In '05 much to our dissappointment the king resigns and leaves the throne empty only to be filled two years later by El Pistolero.
For over two years Lance was out of competitive cycling and only now has he made a return. Finishing in the top twenty of all the races he finished both on the road and mtb. In the Tour he finished third ahead of the pack who had at least three years to raise their game - now that's improvement especially when you take into account his age.
Do you agree with the above? If not, why and I'm not looking for "...because he's a doper..." etc
via trinitypastor.files.wordpress.com
Since '99, Lance has stood on 8 Tour podiums.
For comparison purposes please only include riders that race with the same goal as he does i.e. to win overall, not sprint like Cav or tt's like Fabu
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Ok, I'll just post what I did to your comment in most improved thread again
there is no doubt that Lance had a successful comeback this year, but we can’t judge him for most improved because he didn’t race last year. Most improved usually means that a rider has improved from the last year to this year the most. If you go by Lance’s last year of cycling, then he went from Tour win to Tour 3rd. So most improved wouldn’t really describe his year. I don’t know if there were enough comebacks this year to post a “best comeback” thread. But if you think so you can shoot for that.
Look, it's a bird...no, it's a plane....oh never mind it's just fucking balloon boy
+1
His comeback was truly impressive, but then he still has that one-in-a-billion cardiovascular system, doesn’t he?
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 1, 2009 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
However impressive his comeback was
I don’t see it as a nomination for most improved rider. He just slowly built his form back to the best he could. And despite his age I think he will be better next year, especially hisTT’ing. I think one more respectable stab at the Tour and then I hope he put’s in for some classics.
I’m really excited to see what he can do with an ironman.
No horn, watch for finger.
I still wish he would target Giro or Vuelta as a last major
won’t happen but …. he could win the Giro (he can’t win the Tour)
Moo
Tour
I wouldn’t rule it out yet. 2009 was his first year back; it might take another year to get to full fitness. He certainly won’t be favored and would need some Spanish dominoes to fall first though.
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 1, 2009 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
best old guy maybe ....
but not improved.
He’s a seven time winner ….. of course he is great.
Next year will be key, can he ride with finger tendinitis from twittering?
Moo
Pretty much
that.
He most definitely beat my expectations for his return, but “most improved”? Mkay.
He is, without a doubt, still an incredible talent in the peloton. But he is not, as he (and millions of others) hoped, the best. And that won’t change next year.
But Basso was more impressive..
1 time third and 1 time fourt. Hooray for our smile
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
More impressive than 3rd in the tour
and finishing up Mt Ventoux with Contador and Shleck ? A tie maybe ?
Hard to consider Lance most improved based upon his last year in cycling but if you count from his seriously broken clavicle then he made one heck of an improvement from there. Also he didn’t look anything like Lance at the beginning of the Giro but by the last days of the TDF he was hanging with big boys. Pretty darn improved.
I waited a half an hour to give my two toddlers breakfast until I had my Eneco tour coverage sorted, then made sure I got them fed before the sprint. --- Bought With Blood. ..... Hmmm, my kinda people. If only they could explain to my wife why my bike belongs in the house and not the garage. --- Thevaro
I was just for the contra sound.
Not to make good points but if you look through whole the season Basso’s season was better.
Basso:
5th Tirreno-Adriatico
1st Giro del Trentino
4th Giro.. Oops though 3rd after Di Luca’s dissapearing
4th Vuelta
Lance
7th ToC
12th Giro
3rd Tour.
Ok it equals very much.. Still the Giro was topheavy. But I go for a tie. They knock each other out
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
Think you're being to kind to Basso there.
He finished 5th in the Giro, and would be 4th if you don’t include Di Luca. Menchov, Di Luca, Pellizotti and Sastre all finished ahead of him.
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on Oct 31, 2009 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I was tryng to say that me thinking he was 3rd 4 posts above was not correct..
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
Ah...my bad.
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on Oct 31, 2009 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I was also giving Lance extra credit for going from broken clavicle to
12th at the Giro and then improving to 3rd at the TDF which, for most, is the race where all the stars are peaking for.
I waited a half an hour to give my two toddlers breakfast until I had my Eneco tour coverage sorted, then made sure I got them fed before the sprint. --- Bought With Blood. ..... Hmmm, my kinda people. If only they could explain to my wife why my bike belongs in the house and not the garage. --- Thevaro
Thanks, but I can predict the Poll would be Basso 97, Lance 3
… and I think we can take a guess at who the 3 are. :)
I waited a half an hour to give my two toddlers breakfast until I had my Eneco tour coverage sorted, then made sure I got them fed before the sprint. --- Bought With Blood. ..... Hmmm, my kinda people. If only they could explain to my wife why my bike belongs in the house and not the garage. --- Thevaro
mont ventoux, considering that the gc favs didn't race up the ventoux, but kept tempo... bah
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Amazing.... and again not true.
CN 7/25/09 — “Andy Schleck’s acceleration 13km out reduced his companions to six including his brother Frank, Contador, Armstrong, Nibali, Wiggins”
Andy Shleck said following the race that they had attacked to try to get Frank on the Podium. It didn’t work because Lance was right there.
True that AC did not contest the last hundred yards because he had already won the big prize but that is nothing like not racing up Ventoux.
I waited a half an hour to give my two toddlers breakfast until I had my Eneco tour coverage sorted, then made sure I got them fed before the sprint. --- Bought With Blood. ..... Hmmm, my kinda people. If only they could explain to my wife why my bike belongs in the house and not the garage. --- Thevaro
from what I remember
it didn’t work because Frank didn’t have the legs to go with Andy. I don’t remember seeing Lance trying to go with Bert and Andy, but to be fair all he had to do at that stage was mark Frank. It was impossible to tell whether he could have kept up with Bert and Andy if they had chosen to go off.
Nu-uh - Sorry for the volume but we gotta take off the anti-Lance glasses.
15:50 /12KM CEST – Frank Schleck attacks! He’s jumped…Armstrong goes with him
15:52 CEST Andy Schleck goes….Contador marks him…they’ve left the others. Armstrong is trying to get across…. he’s doing it…
15:53 CEST Andy Schleck goes again! He’s got Contador on his wheel…
Kloden is gone…so too Krueziger.
15:54 CEST – Andy Schleck still leads, Contador on his wheel. Wiggins, Niballi, Armstrong, Armstrong, Frank Schleck are there… Andy goes again! Contador is again the only one to respond.
15:57 CEST Frank Schleck goes, Armstrong marks him… Contador, Wiggins and Nibali are there….and Andy Schleck, of course…
16:14 CEST 5.5km The Kloden-led group appears to be closing..they do so. Pellizotti attacks!! He’s gone clear…
16:19 CEST Andy Schleck goes!! Frank is with him this time…..could this be it? Kloden dropped…
16:29 CEST Andy Schleck attacks again! Contador, Armstrong and Frank Schleck go with him…Wiggins is dropped once more..
Garate won at 16:31 — 39 seconds ahead.
( Actually, it was kinda exciting re-reading it )
I waited a half an hour to give my two toddlers breakfast until I had my Eneco tour coverage sorted, then made sure I got them fed before the sprint. --- Bought With Blood. ..... Hmmm, my kinda people. If only they could explain to my wife why my bike belongs in the house and not the garage. --- Thevaro
If you want to be sure watch Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbeTdV_kGEE&feature=related
From looking through the video very quick he seems he was only covering the ‘attacks’ or pace gears
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
We can read the attacks above and we see that Andy
Frank, and Pelozotti attacked repeatedly in that last 39 minutes of the Climb. We all know AC didn’t attack (guaranteeing victor by following wheels ) but there were 8 separate attacks in the last 39 minutes of the Ventoux climb.
So they were definitely racing.
I’ll watch it too, just for fun.
I waited a half an hour to give my two toddlers breakfast until I had my Eneco tour coverage sorted, then made sure I got them fed before the sprint. --- Bought With Blood. ..... Hmmm, my kinda people. If only they could explain to my wife why my bike belongs in the house and not the garage. --- Thevaro
I remeber that stage very well, probably because it was so dissapointing
it was a negative race up the climb. Yes Andy attacked a few times but once AC countered he slowed down, which when it’s all said in done doesn’t make it that much of a difference effort wise. Lance didn’t follow the wheels, maybe because he couldn’t or maybe because he only needed to mark Frank. Pelozotti was over half an hour down and was free to go. Remember that the main contenders couldn’t even catch the gassed break away riders Garate and Martin, even though their advantage at the bottom of the massive climb wasn’t that much. Had the big guns all raced hard the whole way up they would have sucked them up 5km from the line. This has nothing to do with anit-Lance sentiment. Us fans want fun action first and foremost, and if that means Lance attacking so be it. The disappointment stems from the anti-climatic grand Tour final that was promised on Ventoux.
Look, it's a bird...no, it's a plane....oh never mind it's just fucking balloon boy
Yeah, I just watched the whole thing ( thanks Frinking )
and its true Andy attacked at 12.5 Km and then was seen looking back for Frank. It’s also true Andy was pretty much towing Lance, AC, Frank, Nibali and Wiggins, with a 41Km wind but you can’t say they weren’t racing as we saw Andy’s attacks drop Carpets, Kruetizger, Wiggins, Nibali, and Kloden.
I waited a half an hour to give my two toddlers breakfast until I had my Eneco tour coverage sorted, then made sure I got them fed before the sprint. --- Bought With Blood. ..... Hmmm, my kinda people. If only they could explain to my wife why my bike belongs in the house and not the garage. --- Thevaro
Lance would in my estimation be the comeback of the year.
And perhaps it would be one of the greatest comebacks if things like this were kept tract of. IMHO most improved is very different from comebacks.
Cancellara was robbed! There is none better.
Agreed, best comeback is the right designation...
Not most improved (though if you look at his Leadville results… hmm.)
As for Basso vs. Armstrong— it’s reasonably close, but 3rd behind a superstar like Contador trumps 4th to journeymen like Menchov and Valverde.
A look at the Boss' Leadville results
Lance Armstrong won Colorado’s Leadville 100, knocking more than 15 minutes off of the old record, about a half hour ahead of six-time winner Dave Wiens who came in second in 6:57:01 a year after holding off the seven-time Tour de France champ by about two minutes..
Now that’s improvement, gaining nearly 17 minutes over the guy who beat you – jus fab.
Everybody blows Leadville out of proportion...None of the major endurance racers go and race Leadville.
No Jeremiah Bishop or Jeff Schalk. They would have probably stayed with Lance if not beat his soundly. You have to take that result with a grain of salt.
\That's soooo short-sighted!
1. Menchov 2 times Vuelta winner
2. Pellizotti. Already some podiums in the Giro
3. Sastre. Tour winner 2008
4 Basso
Vandevelde didn’t even compete
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
Lance the most improved Senior Rider
Although not the oldest, would you not agree that He was the Best Rider in his age group?
Good on you for changing the headline back...
But maybe you need to explain what happened
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
The headline is the same as the original ... now
When Lou and I posted, it had turned into, ‘Who is the best senior rider?’
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Woah, did those goal posts just up and walk? ;-)
Yeah, LA can be proud of what he has achieved in his comeback year. No doubt about that. But if we’re talking about the ‘best senior rider’, then he doesn’t hold a candle to Jens!
(and joeyc – I’m not going to try to change your opinion ;-) …)
I was too wimpy to say what you just said
but I agree with all you said. Jens!
And whilst I have no problem with editing a ‘headline’ I would question changing the meaning. It really negates the whole post.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Compare and Contrast, Jens vs Lance
The Reaper
2009 – Saxobank
1st Overall Critérium International
1st Stage 2
6th Overall Paris – Nice
The Boss:
2009 – Astana
3rd Overall, Tour de France
1st, Stage 4 TTT
7th Overall, Tour of California
11th Overall, Giro d’Italia
2009 – Mellow Johnny’s Cycling Team
1st, Nevada City Classic
2nd Overall Tour of the Gila
1st, Colorado Pro Cross-Country Championships
1st, Leadville Trail 100 Mountain Bike Race
8th, Oslo Grand Prix
You know what... the only bosses I acknowledge are the ones who pay me and Bruce Springsteen
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
"The Boss" Lance Armstrong
This was actually the headline in L’Equipe in July 2003 when Lance clinched his fifth consecutive title.
Oh please letthat Mellow thing out.
That has nothing to do with competition and cycling.. The Nevada City Classic>! If that the results you have to include Basso is by far better than Lance..
And Voigt was just sentimental. Nothing serious to worry about. They just have to fulfill their Jens love quote (:
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
Thank you for affirming us in our Jens! love :)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
You're a good man :)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
If I said you were a good boy
I would feel like I was patronising you, so I’ll settle for the ubiquitous, ‘good bloke’ … a compliment in Oz ;)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Jens! is NOT 'just sentimental'!
He is, in fact, a legend.
(hang on, those goal posts seem to be remarkably mobile, LOL…)
Uhu.. Keep saying that.
You might believ it.. one day ;)
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
the goal posts
for clarity, I wrote this post at 01:00 in the morning, then I dosed to bed, woke up changed the wording, dosed again then realised – thanx to the feedback – the original heading was just fine. The inconvinience is regreted but hey, I was lavitating in deep slumber.
Joey, not being rude, but you have outfrinked Frinking. What is 'laviating'? And are you also Dutch? ;)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
I have been outfrinked..
Wacht a moment. Dat’s niet fair!
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
Can YOU explain 'laviating'? If not, you've been outfrinked ;)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Uuh of course I can!
He was close to deep slumber. Tired because it was late. Uuh Levitation…
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
From the mouth of the master ... but levitating? Aargh!
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Hover in the air... magical powers
I’d like to say it sounded Australian, but really it just sounds … well, like a frinkism ;)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
No! A Frinkism, what a word!, is Dutch whith 1 or 2 letters English added to let it sounds like English
We can’t speak of that here.
Btw. Chrome is correcting my English! That’s mucho bieno
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
We've been speaking it for ages. Brilljant ;)
Yay for Chrome, but it won’t be as much fun for us though .. or as good a learning experience for you…
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Don't agree there, I'm afraid
And I speak ‘Frink’, remember? (not fluently, but enough to get by…)
No worries
I am very much at home with mobile goalposts. (“Hey boss, it’s those moving goalposts again….” … “Yes, Lou. Deal with it.”… “How’s about I just wait for them to move again?”… “No, Lou, but nice try.”).
But as for LA being ‘most improved’ … I’m afraid that I don’t have anything to say on that one. Ask me again next year ;-)
Hey?
Would I be correct in assuming that you are arguing that LA is ‘better’ than Jens! because of results this year? ’cause if that is the case, I remain unconvinced.
I judge by different criteria ;-)
Jens! = better team mate = better rider
Roll on Saxo, roll on
Cancellara was robbed! There is none better.
Lance's improvement
To say that he hasn’t would be folly and to not count the result he achieved with Mellow Johnnys will be the same. All those riders who lined up for the criteriums and mtb races included seasoned pro’s within those disciplines, are you saying then that those riders are of low calibre? Lest you forget, a number of riders within the current peleton have either a criterium or mtb background.
For clarity, I’m not saying Lance is better than anyone this season, what I saying is that of all riders he’s the most improved in form, to hail from his couch to the podium of the Tour ahead of the likes of Sastre is one massive step up in form.
As a teacher I think 'improvement' is incremental and ongoing...
A break like LA’s is a ‘comeback’, not ‘improvement’.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Correct about improvement however,
Lance was registered as a competitive Mountain Biker in 2008, and then he made the transition back to road later in the year.
Incremental: from mountain biker to third on GC at the tour
'Correct' in your eyes. Let's agree to disagree...
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
I refuse your acceptance to agree to disagree.
Lance made a comeback joeyc, comeback got it. You don’t even have to admit it but it is what it is.
No horn, watch for finger.
I was talking to Seahorse
She shouldn’t have agreed to disagree with you on this point. I don’t see that there is a point being made, that LA’s comeback can be construed into ’Most Improved Rider of the Year".
No horn, watch for finger.
Sminer, I'm with you
but I had no heart for this… Anyone who can change a headline to ensure Lance ‘wins’ something is hard work. It would have been more fun to debate with you, but I think we agree here :)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
You can not put mountain biking in his list.
1. I haven’t got a clue what the competition was there. So how could we compare those wins with other riders?
2. Mountain bike is an other discipline in sport. Just mixing it with biking on the road seems a little bit odd. Point is it’s not a cycling achievement.
And he wasn’t hailing on a couch. He ran a marathon, doing some mountain biking, etc. He planned his comeback carefully.
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
You are good!
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Nope. The mountain bike races he went to had "seasoned" pros but they were not the top of the line riders
Dave Weins might have won Leadville a lot but at 45 he is a bit over the hump. Same with Tinker Juarez.
Any MTb races he did in Texas did not have top of the line pros. It wasn’t like the was racing world cups and beating Julien Absalon. The criterium he did in Nevada City only had a handful of pros other than his “guys”. And the Oslo criterium? That is a post tour crit that really is not a race more of a demonstration for the public to see the riders.
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