Astana's dominance?
by Frinking on Nov 10, 2009 5:25 PM EST
28 comments
Disclaimer, hey I like them!: I used opinions from posters to make a sort of case. No offence intended. And I was a little suggestive. I hope you don't mind..
I was looking through my old posts. Why? Because I wanted to know how bad my English was and I found 2 interesting posts who are deserving an evaluation. This post is going to be about Astana, GT's, expectations and opinions.
Post found here
The post was about ranking the strength of teams in the year 2009. I ranked the teams teams based on their strength to see how they were going to perform and how strong they would be in sections of the year. After some puzzling this was the results:
| Spring | 3-luik | Suisse/Dauphine | Grand Tours | WC and Lombardia | Total | |
| Astana | 3 | 0 | 10 | 8 | 3 | 24 |
| Caisse | 1 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 7 | 32 |
| Liquigas | 4 | 2 | 7 | 9 | 3 | 25 |
| CSC | 8 | 8 | 4 | 9 | 8 | 37 |
| Quick-Step | 10 | 0 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 18 |
| Rabobank | 7 | 7 | 5 | 7 | 8 | 34 |
| Silence-Lotto | 9 | 5 | 8 | 6 | 6 | 34 |
| Katusja | 6 | 5 | 3 | 5 | 5 | 24 |
| Lampre | 8 | 8 | 0 | 5 | 10 | 31 |
| Team Colombia | 6 | 7 | 7 | 8 | 0 | 28 |
- SaxoBank 37
- Silence-Lotto/Rabobank 34
- Caisse D'Epargne 32
- Lampre 31
- Team Colombia 28
- Liquigas 25
- Astana/Katusja 24
- Quick-Step 18
- Yeah you see it right.. Freaking Silence-Lotto was second in the list! The last 5 races of the seasons not included they were Silence..
- Lampre.. Who is that Gaspa guy again? He fooled me.. And Cunego is a little overvalued no? Yeah..
- Team Colombia.. Uuh.. If we look back they should have 10 at least in all those categories.. But I didn't see it coming.. Well that's life.
- The others seem solid in place. Or did I miss anything?
Well.. Now getting to the real point of the post. Their was a discussion about the Astana GT ranking. I ranked Liqui with a 10, you are not a Basso fan are you?! Was it so obvious?, but put them down to 9. Astana stayed at 8.. The question is.. How did they do this season?
Expactations:
HonestlyI expect they’ll win all three. Can’t say I’m hoping for it, but I’d be more surprised if they didn’t win than if they did. -jsallee00
All three for sure
How much of each podium is all I’m wondering. - Sminer:
Well this is a forward projection for 2009
obviously so the ranking is based partly on what you expect to happen. If Basso rides the Giro/Vuelta – he’s not riding the Tour where Conador will be trying to hit his peak for the year -double, I think he’s capable of winning both. If that’s the way one thinks why shouldn’t Liquigas rank ahead of Astana? It’s all speculation and semi-educated guesswork of course but that’s fun. That’s why we play VDS. - Rothko
Me? As the numbers suggested not so keen at Astana's chances in the Giro and Vuelta.
Numbers:
Giro:
Leipheimer 6th, The Old men 12th
Tour:
Won TTT, Contador won 2 stages, Overall: Contador 1st, The Old men 3rd, Kloden 6th
Vuelta:
Navarro 13th, Zubeldia 14th
Evaluation:
They were superior in the Tour. No doubt about that. Winning the Tour with 4:30 and a half team who also ended on the third place is one of the most superior Tourwins I have seen. The other GT's, Giro to begin:
We have seen a lot of Astana's.. Who were surrounding The Old men. We also saw The King of California who struggled. A day for the loooooonnngggg TT he was in pole position for the win. After that he had to climb and it went downhill, obvious one of the reasons why everybody passed him... uphill... Disappointing for Levi. The Old Men did what everybody expected with a solid 12th place.
La Vuelta.. With only Zubeldia powered up a solid top 5 place was max. He failed in his missiion to ride top 10 without seeing him. Navarro, who knew!?, became 14th...
Verdict:
Up to you.. Has Astana saved their whole season in the TdF? (and their subpar perfomances in La Vuelta and Le Giro) Was it good enough? Were the expectations too high?! Etc, etc?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Still interested? (I was planning to avoid this part because it now looks I want to make my point...... and wanted to focus on the Astana question)
The Liquigas/Astana case.
This is going to be a close call.. Who has the best performances in the 3 GT's? Liquigas or Astana? (Well maybe Saxo or Rabo but that's again an other case)
Expactations:
High on my side. Serious. I thought they would won 2 GT with Basso, have a competetor in the jersey competitions in 2 GT's and have still a lot of talent left in the Tour with Kreuzi and Nibali.. They were going to be Da Bomb in the year 2009.
Numbers:
Liquigas
Giro d'Italia
Pellizotti: Stage 17 and 2d overall, Ok this may be not OK...
Basso 4th overall, See Pellizotti
Tour de France: Overall: Nibali 7th, Kreuziger 9th
Vuelta a Espana: Overall: Basso 4th
Evaluation:
Basso was not as good as expected. Still he was 2 times 4th in a GT which isn't bad. Also with a podium spot for Pellizotti in the Giro and 2 top 10 in the Tour this was a very strong GT team. Too bad Benna-ouch wasn't there to relief their pain for stage wins.
Verdict:
Up to you. Were they better than Astana?
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nice post dude
the liquigas v astana debate is pretty interesting, especially looking at this season…my personal opinion is that contador aside, it’s pretty tough to separate the two:
they employ two of my favourite domestiques (szmyd and muravyev), they employ guys who’d i’d love to see win a GT (pellizotti and levi), they employ people i’d rather not see racing again (basso and the old man as you so nicely put it), but in terms of excitement, nibali and kreuziger win it for leeky. the riding style of kreuziger in the monaco TT was beautiful, and nibali is the most exciting rider for the future i’ve seen this year (and sorry chris, that includes boom). if he doesn’t podium in a GT next season, i’ll be very surprised.
and don’t worry about your english, i couldn’t even post a simple sentence in dutch.
"well...you live in england so: you love the rain. loves the queen. hates cycling. based on mr bean had a tremendous amount of humour. all ride in a mini cooper. all getting drunk before the age of 12. getting drunk at least 3 times a day."- frinking, 7/9/09
by benrazor on Nov 10, 2009 9:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ha. Thanks..
And I also would put Liqui above Astana. Simply because Liqui had a contender/picture rider in every GT this year! That’s unbelievable good!
Also Basso looked very strong in the Vuelta with numerous attack. That should give them something more. (And I like Basso more than anyone around Astana)
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Nov 11, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As I started reading this post and scrolling down...
I thought about the comment I made earlier in the season about this very discussion. I couldn’t quite remember what I said and then… oh…. there it is (Highlighted). Thanks Frinking (again).
Yes my expectations where a little high and… ahem… typically overstated for dramatic effect concerning Astana. But I too had much higher expectations for Liquigas.
Did Astana save their whole season at the TdF? Not by my way of looking at it. But the TdF is the be all and end all for some.
Astana vs. Liquigas: I give the egde to Astana.
Nice post Frinking
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Nov 10, 2009 9:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ha! and Thanks.
I wasn’t sure you were going to like it.. But what were you expectations from Liqui? 2 GT’s?
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Nov 11, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Liqui?
I thought they might take the Giro or the Vuelta. I also thougth they would take some stages or a jersey or have riders like Nibali or Krueziger do much better. But even without the results, they were a strong team that impacted the races. I thought Basso would be impressive and possibly win the Giro, but like you said, two 4th places ain’t nothin’ to scoff at.
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Nov 11, 2009 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure it wasn't it..
In that light they underachieved a little.. Well the same can be said about Astana.
But I looked a recap of the Vuelta and Basso was strong. Also in the Vuelta. His problem was he couldn’t carry on his effort to the finish. He’s taken back a lot 1 or 2 km for the finish. I so hope he will do the Vuelta-Giro thing again next year. Nibali and Krezuiger would be even stronger next year! The competition is super heavy in Le Boucle but still I have good hope we see Liqui again so strong next year.
(Ugh.. multi tasking is deadly for grammar)
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Nov 12, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Astana for sure
In some years we will forget Basso’s 4ths. Result is what matters here and the result that matter is winning….or maybe a Podium.
In my numbers Astana 1 × 0 Leaky in wins and Astana 2 × 1 Leaky in podiums….anyway I look at it is Astana. I don’t particularly like the team although I do like some riders. But if you ask me…Astana wins in 2009.
You could make a case on Rabo though…
Your bike doesn't want to crash so relax and let it roll!!!
by perezbike on Nov 10, 2009 9:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well.. Maybe over a couple of year we will forget.. But the post isn't really about how long we will remember
But if we look to how strong they were overall at the GT’s. Was Astana than stronger?
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Nov 11, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep Astana definitely
The winner is stronger. If you were a rider what would you prefer? 1 GT win of 3 4ths? Ask Cadel about hehehe. I just used remember as quantification of significance.
Now, another thing is what I would like to happen. I would definitely have loved to see Leaky get some more wins. I hope they can organize better next year. For example with Nibali and Kreuziger at the Giro would the result had been different? I know that Basso not been invited to the Tour plays a role, off course. But I am curious to see how they will manage their talent in 2010
Your bike doesn't want to crash so relax and let it roll!!!
by perezbike on Nov 11, 2009 10:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well..
1,3,6 against 2,4,7,9,4. I know the Tour has to be ranked much higher so that can give them the edge but me I liked the Giro more than Le Tour, which I basically haven’t seen.
And next year will be the Year for Nibali and Kreuziger.. Will they get that extra to get to the real top?
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Nov 12, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The point here my young friend
Is that in some (every) sports winning is what counts. If you mathematically get their 3 best results 1+3+6=2+4+4 …I insist → which of the options do YOU prefer if it were your results? There you go. Although I would have preferred the other way around. Go leaky 2010!
Your bike doesn't want to crash so relax and let it roll!!!
by perezbike on Nov 12, 2009 8:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Astana for this year I think
However, Liquigas look to be ascending. With Kreuziger, Nibali and Szmyd I’m thinking that the future looks bright. With Bert still at Astana next though, I suspect Astana will still have the edge.
BTW: Were you pleased at your progress in English. This is a very interesting and fluent post.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
by Seahorse on Nov 10, 2009 11:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Szmyd is like 35.. Haha not the youngest but with the lose of
Levi and the Old men they are going to lose it next year
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Nov 11, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What about Columbia-HTC ?
I know your post is about Astana, but as far as dominance goes, perhaps we could look at total wins. At least Columbia thinks it’s worth a thought. On Team Columbia’s site they are proud that Eurosport has ranked them #1 for the year. It seem not to be a poll of opinions but a ranking based on points.
With three riders in the top ten and 86 wins during 2009, Team Columbia-HTC capped the team ranking with an impressive 7,253 points, ahead of Teams Astana and Saxo Bank by greater than a 40 percent gap.
See their site for details.
Of course you can make numbers say what you want, depending on how you divvy them up.
by MaestroDon on Nov 10, 2009 11:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The Frink is talking about the GT-ranking
Columbia-HTC had nothing to say there last year. A pink jersey for a day or two and that’s all.
De FIETS en anders NIETS
by Lopex on Nov 11, 2009 7:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well.. Not really..
It was about how influence they would be/how strong theyn would be in the GT’s. But as you see in the comments in the post they were not so keen on ranking Stage wins… But with the amount of stage wins Colombia had in GT’s it would be a closer call.. (Although I think it’s pretty much even between Rabo and Colombia)
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Nov 11, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Considering Astana didn't really contest the Vuelta
I’d think Astana
… and considering that Leipheimer and and Horner kept falling down, they did pretty well. The only big surprise for Astana was Levi not contesting for the Giro win. I guess we will see whether Levi has “lost it” next year at the Shack.
I waited a half an hour to give my two toddlers breakfast until I had my Eneco tour coverage sorted, then made sure I got them fed before the sprint. --- Bought With Blood. ..... Hmmm, my kinda people. If only they could explain to my wife why my bike belongs in the house and not the garage. --- Thevaro
by thevaro on Nov 10, 2009 11:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That's easy said..
Because they didn’t really contest.. They had Zubeldia in the Vuelta. More than most teams could say, qua potential. And also the falling of Horner and LL is part of the game. In my opinion
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Nov 11, 2009 12:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
qua
Brilliant usage there! You young man, are a genius language usurper. Everybody here will be using qua in no time without even remembering you started it.
De FIETS en anders NIETS
by Lopex on Nov 11, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Haha.. Everybody will speak Frinkius in time (:
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Nov 12, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Seeing Astana is led by JB and his gang, we shouldn't have been surprised the Tour was the only major goal
yet I sort of am, with that talent they could have done more, yet they didn’t. Leaky did about as good as they could seeing the non doped Basso just doesn’t have the ability to rider others off his wheel anymore.
Look, it's a bird...no, it's a plane....oh never mind it's just fucking balloon boy
by Phil H. on Nov 11, 2009 12:18 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
+1..
It was ludicrous to send LL, Kloden, Lance and Contador all to the Tour. All fully prepared is almost a shame.
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Nov 11, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm thinking even Bert would not have thought it ludicrous
They went to win and they did.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
by Seahorse on Nov 11, 2009 7:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah.. But it's a shane to put soo many talent on just one race..
I know it’s the Tour but still. There is more than that! (Although I have seen enough action in La Vuelta and Le Giro)
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Nov 12, 2009 4:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Astana did nothing in the Eneco Tour
Bastards
by Jens on Nov 12, 2009 4:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They don't have the talent..
To even become close to a victory in the Eneco Tour.. Talent you must have
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Nov 12, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good Job Frinkster
Even if you did call me out for being wrong. I did say that I hoped I was wrong though. I still say they had a better GT year than Leaky, but they weren’t nearly as dominant as I feared they would be.
Tickets are bought, Belgium here I come!
by jsallee00 on Nov 11, 2009 12:49 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Don't worry..
I’m also more wrong than right.. And I’m glad you were right. It wouldn’t be very excited GT’s!
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
by Frinking on Nov 11, 2009 12:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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