Class chat waiting for the sesh
by R Mc on Nov 4, 2009 8:31 PM EST
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Ok . . . reading through the responses to the great Tyler Farrar interview . . . Gav's (or someone's) response about hoping the EBH doesn't become a GT-chaser got me wondering about the strange feature of cycling where the least interesting racing gets the most casual fan attention?
Am I correct? Save a snooze-fest with fire-works like Milan-San Remo, is there any Monument that isn't more compelling viewing than most any stage of a Grand Tour? Sure, occasional GT stages will be must re-watch events, and every so-often a classic will be a dud, but in most cases, I'll go for re-watching a classic instead of re-watching a stage of a GT. And the rest of ya'll? what say ye?
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Oooh, class chat!
LOL, there’s been so much good chatting around here today, I’m lagging on my Wednesday responsibilities.
Maybe a question for the Europeans – does this dynamic also hold in Europe? Like, is there more casual engagement with the Tour than say, the Ronde, in Belgium?
I do heart me some one-day classics – and you’re right, there are grand tour stages that rock the casbah, but in the main, I’m more likely to re-watch a major classic. Maybe it’s that the grand tour stages don’t really stand alone. The narrative builds day by day, and a single day, is only a small sliver of the overall story. A one day race is a discrete whole – the entire story is there for the reading.
Going back to the Farrar interview...
Chris asked a question about comparing a one day race to a stage of a stage race. The big difference being that in a one day race it’s full tilt racing, and everyone’s in, no resting the legs for tomorrow. But I think every year there’s a stage or two of the GT’s or other stage races that rival whatever classics that year were entertaining as hell.
Some of us can’t talk about this like joeyc can, because we haven’t won any races, but I like to look at each race I get to view from the riders perspective too, so I don’t discount their victory by viewing races as boring. I think the biggest factor of our viewing pleasure comes from judging how “big” the race is in our own minds and on the racing calendar.
Blah blah blah, anyway I would probably re-watch GT recaps as much as a great classic like P-R.
No horn, watch for finger.
lol, seriously
Congrats!
I think that means sminer has to write all the content on the site. None of the rest of us are qualified, after all.
writing? paaaahleeeze
I can’t begin to cover this sport like you guys do.
No horn, watch for finger.
lol
You did see the comment from some dumbass that only people who have won races can write about them, right?
I’m now disqualified from writing about any European pro races. Total relief ;-)
Someone as colorful as you
has to have a little flightiness thrown in as well.
And thanks everyone, I’m so glad I can comment at will (and ted), I’ve been holding back all this time. ;)
No horn, watch for finger.
wow nice going, congrats
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Nov 5, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
GT highlights
The problem I have with the Lance years is that so much was bottled up that you rarely saw the full-on slugfest on the slopes of a huge mountain. I think we have seen some of that in the past couple years. Obviously I am all in for the classics, but grand tour stages can be thoroughly awesome if the riders decide to make it so.
The problem I see is that in GTs the riders select so few guys to try to win that you never have more than a small number of really hungry, aggressive guys at once. At least in the Giro and Vuelta; the Tour is faster and more aggressive in some respects, vis-a-vis the stage hunting. It is hard for a stage of a Tour though to have as many simultaneous subplots as a classic.
OTOH, grand tours are better for casual fans to follow, because you can read about the intrigue and chess matches. If your love of the sport isn’t great enough to demand live video, then the running intrigue would likely make you prefer the GTs.
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 5, 2009 2:50 AM EST up reply actions
Simple answer for me
the grand prize in classics is winning the race, every one that day wants to win or have their teammate win, In a GT stage it’s all about the overall goal for so many riders, which of course is winning the overall. So only a few riders have a chance to win, it’s quite predictable after a while. Either the break-away riders, the best climbers or TTists, or one of the sprinters. In a classic anyone can win, a whole bunch of different type of riders. You never can really predict what will happen. The racing is fast and furious, no one has to worry about the next day or losing time here and there, On some GT stages there are a bunch of riders just riding casually in the peloton as the break riders contest the stage win, that doesn’t happen in classics.
Look, it's a bird...no, it's a plane....oh never mind it's just fucking balloon boy
Makes sense
For me, I see the difference in how I watch the races. I will typically watch much more of a one day race than a grand tour stage – I feel like I need to see more of the race to really understand the tactics and how it’s unfolding.
It depends for me
Paris-Roubaix? I’ll watch as much of it as I can. Flanders? Ditto.
Scheldeprijs? Last half hour suffices. Maybe 15 minutes if I’m busy that day. I don’t see much difference wuith that race and a Grand Tour flat stage: there’s a break, the onus is on a couple of teams to bring it back, which they in either case usually do, then there’s the set-up and sprint.
Lombardia? It’s hilly but the winning moves come late as a rule, with the usual exceptions that prove the rule. I’ll tune in say an hour before, assess the break and know within a minute it it’s gonna make it or not.
I do agree that overall a Monument is more compelling than all but the best grand Tour stages, but that’s not saying much. You only have 5 Monuments per year and there’s also a couple of Grand Tour stages that definitely beat a couple of those.
Just being contrarian here.
Having spent many an hour on a trainer watching the TV I can tell you that watching the classics never gets old
even having watched the last 140k of every Paris Roubaix/Flanders from about ’00 to ’04 multiple times, I always get a rush in the legs when I see somebody make a bone crushing attack that you know is going to be caught but you think that this one time they will stay away.
If they made a DVD of the greatest GT stages of the last 5 years then I would buy that but even then it might not be as exciting since not as much is on the line usually.
classics/monuments
A couple weeks ago someone made an offhand comment about a rider “graduating from the GTs to the classics.” Loved it. Many of the comments here have identified what the classics have that most GT racing doesn’t and I don’t have much to add, except that for the most part no true classic is won without decisive attacks. Nothing gets me on the edge of my seat or reduces me to a blathering idiot, like seeing a (potentially) decisive attack in a one day race.
"The road is our agony, but also our daily bread; and at night, when it is deserted and the moon glistens on the asphalt, the ridiculous dreams of racers like us pass up and down it."
--Dino Buzzati
I don't think it's a fair to compare a Classics to a stage viewed standalone
One thing that I love about Classics is the feeling can anything can happen in the race and that I, as a spectator, have to watch it all in case I miss it. It could be an attack, a mechanical, anything that can impact the outcome, and even better that surprises can happen as far as results.
I don’t think it’s fair to compare it to a standalone stage because a stage does not stand alone, it is part of a multiple day race and should be viewed that way, the tactics, the strategy that unfolds across weeks, that is the beauty of a stage race. While some stages might be decisive aka the Queen Stages, a race can be almost in any stage. It the culmination that gets me.
I don't really watch races over again
So I prefer the big stage races (except for the one that takes place in Spain and rhymes with Fuelta). Something about the way stage races have multiple races within a race all going on at the same time over many days, with back story, and the circus, and the hype. It’s something about knowing I can fall behind in watching it live, but not miss the plot. I love the classics, but they always leave me wanting more. Like Flanders did this year, or Roubaix, or MSR most years.
Completely different beasts - for riders and viewers, both.
A GT to me is more than the sum of it’s stages. It’s the narrative thing. And the viewing experience is kind of special – I live and breathe the race for three weeks. Take one stage out of it’s context, and for me it just doesn’t compare with a monument/classic. Different thing entirely.
There are some GT stages that I can and do re-watch on their own… but for the most part, re-watching GT stages happens as part of a marathon, month-long, 21-stage viewing exercise. (Please tell me that I’m not the only one who occasionally does that, in the dark depths of the off-season…)
I agree
is like a soap opera or a tv series. Somedays the chapter is not that interesting but you still want to know what is going to happen next.
Your bike doesn't want to crash so relax and let it roll!!!
this year
there was a bit too much soap opera at certain GTs…
"The road is our agony, but also our daily bread; and at night, when it is deserted and the moon glistens on the asphalt, the ridiculous dreams of racers like us pass up and down it."
--Dino Buzzati
Totally classic
"If I were World Road Race Champion, I would wear black shorts. That probably has more to do with me being on the wiser side of 30 and understanding better that the decisions I make now never really go away. White shorts would not be something I'd be proud of...." - David Millar, in Rouleur.
His shorts says Volvo
That’s the Chinese car manufacturer, right?
Staring at the swim team gets you killed by a gang of dancing ninja men who know how to twirl.
by TheFigurehead on Nov 5, 2009 7:48 AM EST up reply actions
A contrary view
I know most here are huge classics fans …..
And yes, any classic is better than many or even most of a Grand Tour stages.
But I’d rather watch the 3 or 4 deciding stages of a Grand Tour than most classics.
For example, I am looking forward to next year’s Tourmalet stage more than any other day in 2010. And the 2 big Alps stages next, etc.
Admittedly, I am pretty new to watching the Classics – and some are much better than others. I still can’t rap my head around how Milan-San Remo is 300(!!) kms and virtually always a sprint finish. Yawn. (Impressive Yawn, but still ….)
Maybe I’ll change my mind after next spring ;)
Moo
A year ago I’d have agreed with you…but I actually think MSR was the most entertaining race of the year (admittedly I didn’t see them all). I’m not a lover of the sprints, if anything the opposite is true (favourite monument is LBL), but there’s something about the slow attrition that happens in that race, all leading up to the final blow-up, that’s really incredible. And Cavendish’s burst of speed was the most incredible display of the season in my opinion (Gilbert’s 4 straight, including the autumn double, being a close second).
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Nov 5, 2009 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
as sprints go
Cav-GHH head up on the Via Roma was pretty cool. But MSR is not all about sprints — Cancellara’s 1km smack down in ’08 was awesome. Or Kelly v. Argentin, 1992.
"The road is our agony, but also our daily bread; and at night, when it is deserted and the moon glistens on the asphalt, the ridiculous dreams of racers like us pass up and down it."
--Dino Buzzati
i like the classics for the fact that
escapes matter. Well and just racing wise they are fun because just that day counts. Although yeah, msr is no better than a sprint stage in my opinion. On the other hand paris-roubaix and tour of flanders are really fun.
I like the grand tours for the scenery for one – just the heli shots are worth tuning in for. Well then you have the battle for the overall which is exciting on a few of the days and then the sprints and point competition. Then the occasional breakaway that is exciting.
I don't really get the question. But then I've never won a bicycle race so what do I know.
As I read it you want to compare the typical monument to the typical GT stage. I doubt you really need anyone to answer which is more watchable or rewatchable. I think a large part of a potential answer would involve race strategies, who has what strategy is frequently spoon fed in a GT race while in a monument you might not even notice the moves that someone made and how they contributed to the overall until you watch again. And in a monument there are several potential winners and several strategies at work, in a GT none of this unfolds on the road in the same way. I think if you want to read and understand a race for yourself you probably favor a one day classic, if you like to or need to be told what is happening in the race you might favor the slower pace of race tactics in a GT.
Cancellara was robbed! There is none better.
I think
the only way to ask this is, what gets you more excited or interested? Some prefer the slowly unfolding GT drama, others the all out vollgas war of a classic. IOW, this is pure subjectivity.
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 5, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
Based on numbers (Race day of 2009)
Nominations
Stages: 6
Monuments: 7 (from the 7 WCs included)
Votes:
Stages: 49+19+9+5+5+2+1= 90 votes
Monuments: 101+9+37+76+2+7= 262 votes
Disclaimer. Have’t used a calculator. Faults are all mine
So monuments win.. But i can missed the point of the thread. My fault. That’s just me
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
I hardly ever re-watch any cycling
but I never record GTs. So any re-watching (once or twice a year) will be of RVV, P-R or cyclocross.
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