World Competition and Rankings: How Would You Do It?
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 5, 2009 2:49 PM EST
in Numbers
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Print[And yes, this is a VDS matter...]
It was only somewhat surprising that in my chat with Tyler Farrar the other day he didn't know he was fourth in the world in wins. He referred to UCI points, presumably using the World Calendar, which is a nice list of races but kind of skimming off the top. I was referring to CQRanking.com tallies (and editorializing by crossing Jose Rujano off the list), which cover pretty much every race that you can think of, and which count wins as well as points. All are measures of success, but look absolutely nothing alike.
Cycling is forever tinkering with its meta-organization at the top level, looking for ways to measure the performances of riders and teams. The Pro Tour, in its initial form, was one of the most ambitious attempts ever to create a "Major League of Cycling" that fans in places like the US could understand. The concept was to separate, for once, the top level teams from the second tier, pit them against one another all year long over the most famous roads in the sport, and declare various winners. While hobnobbing with the Second Division was not strictly forbidden, and while the Pro Tour did not insist on total control of the startlists in such races, inclusion of non-Pro Tour teams was minimal. This was an exclusive club -- akin to US team sports, where the major and minor leagues never truly mingle, or like football/soccer worldwide, where they mingle occasionally but the dividing lines remain clear.
The effort failed for political reasons that nobody feels like rehashing, but more fundamentally for reasons having to do with the nature of Cycling. Teams build and survive by attracting sponsors, not by selling tickets. So when (inevitably) certain Pro Tour teams wound up having to feign interest in big races that would have mattered a lot more to the Second-Division squads whose space they took, the races and teams objected. Why should the Tour de France host an Italian team that just exhausted itself in the Giro and is sending a bunch of warm bodies to France, when teams like Agritubel or Vacansoleil could bring far more interest to the race and pay a year's worth of bills in the process?
The result is to mostly go back to the way things were. Most of the big races retain some latitude to determine who should be there. Big teams race with their smaller counterparts as often as ever. Pro Tour teams pay extra for a special Seal of UCI Approval and a quasi-guarantee to a slate of races, but the resulting competitions are of questionable value. The Pro Tour calendar is a small subset of the races that matter, and even the broader World Calendar misses out on plenty of important events (Omloop Het Nieuwsblad? Paris-Tours??) while including stuff like the Tour of Poland. In the process, the World Calendar named Astana the #1 team -- a bad joke to anyone following Columbia-HTC (85 wins!) or Saxo Bank. Or anyone who reads the CQRanking, where Astana were 6th in points and 14th in victories, trailing squads like Agritubel (since folded) and the Tabriz Petrochemical Team of Iran.
But if the UCI draws its lines too narrowly, surely CQRanking draws too broadly, using every race under the sun to rank Tabriz ahead of Astana or Rujano ahead of Farrar. Actually, that's just victories, their points system is more just, but IMHO it would be nice to look at points from the "races that matter," and with all due respect to the Vuelta a Venezuela, it just doesn't matter to me.
So how do you figure this? Last year we drew up the Virtual Directeur Sportif calendar, a list of 47 races from around the world, which was slightly expanded from the previous year. We tried to catch all the "races that matter," but inevitably during the year there were races people got excited about which were not on the list. So if you were to create a list of the "races that matter," how would you change our current calendar? In the process of answering this, think about why exactly a race matters. Because the big names are there? Because it's historic? Because the level of competition is usually high?
The purpose of this survey is to assist tinkering with the VDS. We may be able to use winter races somehow, although we will see. Anyway, thanks for your input.
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I think it might be cool to add some of the french Cup races in there that are hotly contested...
like Paris-camembert and Gp de Denain or Tro Bro Leon (the other, though not as hard, Roubaix). Valverde won Camembert in 2008 and it could also throw a few points and a guy like Jimmy Casper who could be a good value pick, especially since he is going to be racing higher level races this year with Saur Sojasun.
Denain has previous winners like Casper, Boasson Hagen, Hushovd, Sebi Chavanel among others.
I guess the races have to just have a good mix of star power and competitive-ness to really be considered
Agreed
as long as we identify similar races in other countries to maintain a geographic balance, or at least prevent geographic favoritism.
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 5, 2009 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe add
a few more Italian semi-classics to balance it?
And if you added the short stage races in the US, that would also provide balance. You could add Philly too, if you wanted more races in the US.
Def to Italian semi-classics
considering how interested we were last month. Not having VDS points was kind of sad.
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 5, 2009 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
They're good races for sure
And it would make a good balance if we added a few of the French races at the same time.
This would also be good b/c it'd get us looking at good domestic riders...
…as 1/2 pointers who could, in the right races, return value. I know I wasted my 1/2 point picks mostly last year, but the process of looking around for values at that level was interesting, contributed to my knowledge of the sport, and might have had a very different outcome if there were more races where minor stars or bright young things could do well.
make the case
Eneco I think is taken seriously as a sprinters’ tour. And we tried to do some geographic balancing, so the competition doesn’t favor Spaniards and Italians.
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 5, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
Eneco offered excellent racing
you can’t imagine the anguish it causes me to write that without snark.
Hmm, I exagerrated a bit, and looking at the VDS rankings you've already had the good sense not to rate them with the real top races
Sorry, I just get annoyed when the winner of the Tour Down Under sits at or near the top of the UCI rankings for ages
Though I might argue that Qatar is bigger than the TDU
Qatar usually seems to be where the a-list sprinters first clash
Also, there’s the whole ASO runs it and there aren’t enough Tour wildcards to go around thing
Yeah
January… bah.
Poland, I suppose the list of protagonists keeps it relevant. It’s been a godforsaken race for a couple years, but the teams are there, for sure.
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 5, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
Cutting TDU would not be okay in my opinion, but giving it less weight probably would be
In the interests of ‘geographic balancing’, which is impossible anyway, it has to be there somehow. sorry william H, but give us a little local derby. Humour us, okay?
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
The TDU is never going to be in the VDS. It's simply to early in the season.
Sorry
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
Well, we will respectfully disagree. Hemispherist!
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
It may be early but
if a lot of the top riders come, then doesn’t that help a bit? Perhaps it could be a lower-value VDS race.
Yeah the main problem so far with TDU is how early it is
Thus far the VDS competition has nto been able to get going so early. We’ll see about this year.
Starting two months' early
just to catch Greipel’s points? Probably not worth it.
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 6, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
I would keep it simple
Who really followed the Tour of Qatar? Unless us hardcore fans hehehe. But anyway I would not include it. If we want to focus on what matters. If we want to make it interesting also in terms of competition (VDS) we have to include races that the majority of us has at least an idea on what is going on. At least some coverage, so if we dont know yet about we can learn about, more than that, it is worth to learn about because of tradiotion, because the big teams are there with the big guns. For me it is GTs, Classics (monuments of course), Worlds, and smaller but traditional races like Paris nice, pais vasco, dauphine etc…
Your bike doesn't want to crash so relax and let it roll!!!
Ster Elektrotoer?
Even Frinkster and Ted pay no attention to that race. I say it’s high time the major US domestic stage races, like the Tours of California and Missouri and, errr, Georgia (it might happen), get some love in the VDS. No taxation without representation! Burn the witch!
ToM should be in
at a cat-5 level. ToC is definitely in now that they moved it to May.
How about Tour of Britain? Ireland?
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 5, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions
Denmark?
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 5, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions
I believe you mean the GP Saxo Bank.
5 victories out of the last 6 years. And they now own the only standout (Fuglsang).
by Douglas Ansel on Nov 5, 2009 8:21 PM EST up reply actions
I included Gaspa for the ElektroTour..
Thank God he didn’t race there and didn’t score any points there.. To hold a descend shot for the Lantern Rouge
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
sorry, maybe it's nationalism
but i think Volta a Portugal is important. Guys like Cunego, Petacchi, Cioni, Mosquera was there this year. With the extinction of Deutschland Tour, the Volta will have some important guys in next years, i think.
Maybe the startlist wasn’t very good like Volta ao Algarve, but the history, and the course are wonderful.
But i understand why you don’t want to include in VDS Calendar, despite my sadness.:(
If you had to pick one
Algarve or VaP? Also, what are the dates of both?
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 5, 2009 7:31 PM EST up reply actions
.
17.02.2010 21.02.2010 Volta ao Algarve POR 2.1
04.08.2010 15.08.2010 Volta a Portugal em Bicicleta POR 2.1
this year VdP decreased to 2.1 because of the less Portuguese teams rhis year, and to invite teams rated lower. And because of the money of course.
the people who watched the last two years
here in PDC, I think they really liked. Albertina, majope, frinking, bruce…?
Uuh the Volta a Portugal?!
I have an idea I missed it.. I think there wasn’t even coverage of the race.. That said.. I don’t think it’s a good idea to include it
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
Definitely coverage ... and it was good
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Me... it was fun and a big race
Much more challenging than all our little (or big) English speaking countries’ races.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
I would vote yes too...
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
My two penneth is ...
The ToC must be in due to date swap and PT status
The Vuelta lacks an alterative at present. If you not at the V, cant score in sep til the worlds. ToM or other should be on the list like Catalunya is in May (this year).
|nclude 2/3/4 outliers. Limousin, camembert, portugal, turkey, etc. Pick a few races that set alight the one/two point categories.
There will be two new ProTour races during the Vuelta in 2010
So there will be a new possibility to score points.
Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill (F. Coppi)
Aye, the two Canadian ProTour events should be on there somewhere.
Definitely looking forward to seeing how those play out.
by Douglas Ansel on Nov 5, 2009 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
Say it again
two Canadian Pro Tour events
two Canadian Pro Tour events
two Canadian Pro Tour events
two Canadian Pro Tour events
two Canadian Pro Tour events
two Canadian Pro Tour events
.
.
.
two Canadian Pro Tour events
two Canadian Pro Tour events
two Canadian Pro Tour events
.
.
.
two Canadian Pro Tour events
two Canadian Pro Tour events
TWO CANADIAN PRO TOUR EVENTS!!!
"It looks like talking, but it’s just words that comes out"
~ Andy Schleck
keep het whatever
as the start of the season. My two cents.
"The road is our agony, but also our daily bread; and at night, when it is deserted and the moon glistens on the asphalt, the ridiculous dreams of racers like us pass up and down it."
--Dino Buzzati
I tend to agree...
…it’s nice to get an early sense before picking.
I agree as well
plus Het marks a traditional starting point for the serious business of the spring classics.
Yes. Het is taken very seriously by the riders as well
which is reason to keep it in.
by Douglas Ansel on Nov 6, 2009 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
Coppi Bartali
def want to see this one on vds 2010.
and Trentino, nice prep for the Giro.
on the other hand, I love Jens! like everyone else, but do we really need CI??
Like it
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 5, 2009 8:54 PM EST up reply actions
Tour of Austria as a cat5?
It is ranked 2.HC, and le Tour isn’t the only race in July. And certainly with Danielson, Evans, Devolder, Albasini, VDB, and Totschnig on its list of recent winners it is a race to be taken seriously. It also seems to grow a bit higher in prestige every year.
Agreed
was just thinking about this.
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 5, 2009 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
So to be contrarian, what is the point here? (pun intended)
I mean a bunch of these races we are talking about no one, and I mean no one, sees. To us they are merely pixels on a computer screen that we interpret as results by riders that we never see. I definitely see some of these races being added, ToC, Trentino, Burgos, and Bartali for starters, but the problem of the CQ ranking is that it artificially boosts some riders’ rankings. I’m talking about riders who are C and D list guys who can only hope to compete against each other and who aren’t even considered by their teams for the bigger races-if their teams are even allowed in bigger races.
As I said I am driving a hard line contrarian position here but I want to see us ad races under some rationale. Chris’ post to open this discussion is good; it just needs to be driven home in judging what races to add.
One solution that I see is actually what CQ does: give most of these new races fewer points. In VDS terms, make them Cat 6 races. For one day races make the winner get only 100 points and only the top five riders get any points.
it makes no actual sense
if you want some kind of objective rankings but for PdC purposes it makes perfect sense to have “available video” as a major criteria for inclusion.
One thing that I noticed
That after the 08 season and comparing the CQ and VDS rider rankings (and remembering we added several races for this year) that for 90-95% of the riders their rankings were closely comparable. The exceptions were interesting:
Higher ranked by CQ: Greipel, Rojas, Steegmans, Garzelli, Jens!, Roelandts, Ivanov and a few more
Higher ranked by VDS: Andy Schleck, Nuyens, Arvesen, Flecha, Egoi Martinez, Uran, Valjavec, Zabriskie, R feillu
You mean.. Uran even scored more points than CQranking gave him..
Woow what a stumper, yeah that’s Dutch
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
Agreed
I think this should be a criteria for races. If there’s no video, it’s not really that much fun.
Problem is
we are a bit of diverse group geographically speaking… and there is no way to know which races will have video and which will not ahead of time. Exhibit one is Cycling TV, who I will now make fun of again for not securing the rights to several races that they were advertising coverage of. The pirate feeds are there, but hit or miss.
Rant said, I see:
ToC, Burgos, Bartali, Trentino, Denmark, Beghelli, Piemonte, Lugano, Insubria, Nokere-Koesre, Groene hart, Portugal, Algarve, Missouri, Philly, Asturias, Turkey, Belgium, Bayern Rundfahrdt, Luxembourg, Route du Sud, Austria, Tour de l-Ain, Limousin, England, Ireland, Paris-Brussels, Memorial Cimurri…
At least all of these guys should be considered.
Of these,I can remember we were able to see
ToC, Portugal, Rundfahrt, Turkey,P-B on some kind of stream. Any more?
Philly and Misery in the US.
Ireland too, due to Lance I think. Maybe Asturas, as it seemed like the Spanish regional races were usually on, but I didn’t try. umwolverine would be the best to answer this.
We couldn't see Ireland..
At least not that I remember here in the NL’s
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
neither Ireland or Britain were available live
but there were fairly comprehensive highlights of each
But is that enough for a VDS race.
The Rabo CT races 2 years ago in Ireland. I don’t think the competition is very tough.. (The same can be said about Belgium but we or I could see that.. So it’s a matter of taste)
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
But that's part of the question
Do we want to go another level deeper with VDS? Do we want to go into teams and races that have only some Pro Tour team presence? We could do that.
Philly had no stream last year
Turkey will upgrade to a 2.HC race next year….and that’s all I got.
Look, it's a bird...no, it's a plane....oh never mind it's just fucking balloon boy
Some of those are no better than exhibition races
It looks like everyone’s racing, then mysteriously the local hero gets the victory. Not as blatantly as in the post-Tour crits, but it still makes you go Hmmmm. Groene Hart is streamed, but it’s rubbish
Haha clearly both..
The letg’s introduce an other Dutch word, Tokkie zender broadcasts it.. Crap as hell
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
The stream wasn't too bad
but as I remember, a bunch of riders I’d never heard of did a few laps of a flat, circuit which even had trees sheltering it from the wind. I think they relied on boredom to thin out the pack.
Well. The quality of the tream wasn't bad.. But what they told... It was eeh...
How could I say that properly.. it creeped me out.. and annoyed me.. and.. etc..
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
Pissed you off?
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Now I'll have to learn some Dutch
what on earth were they talking about? White shorts? What’s in the lunch-box? Fifty things to do with a bicycle that can get you arrested in Alabamha?
LOL.
No they had so many sponsors that every city they came through was highlighted till the local butcher and baker and the cafe around the corner… It annoyed me.. (But maybe I have an other coverage in mind)
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
Yes that was it
It was on a commercial tv channel and we are not used to that. Usually all races are covered by public broadcasters from NL or BE and they have strict rules about in-show advertising (mostly, that there should be none) and hardly any commercials. So that was a bit different. Still, a good thing that SBS was willing to pick it up and pay for the race, Frinkster!
Commercial TV may be the root cause of our road rage issues here in USA
No one likes commercials, they’ll drive you crazy.
Cancellara was robbed! There is none better.
Van we stripe the ridicolous rule that the NC of Lithunia and Belarus get 100 points..
Serious.. That’s just… Weird
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
Yeah come on Van!
Look, it's a bird...no, it's a plane....oh never mind it's just fucking balloon boy
Hm
we could create two classes of NCs, 100 pointers and 50 pointers. We could use the UCI country rankings from the previous year.
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 6, 2009 2:27 AM EST up reply actions
but
I don’t see the point in punishing riders who come from small countries. And I don’t want to get rid of all NCs, since they’re a pretty big deal.
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 6, 2009 2:28 AM EST up reply actions
That will make the competition unnescessary difficult.
So I would stay with the 100 points for every race
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
What's the problem
100 points won’t make that much difference at the end, and if someone wants to swot up on that sort of stuff then it’s fair reward.
Now.. But it's a cheap shot for if you want to choose a one pointer..
But I can live with it.. As long as we don’t get 2 categories in the NC.. (Although maybe those NC TT.. Nobody cares does he?)
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
Think prestige and tradition
Those jerseys are a cycling staple.
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 6, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
What about taking all UPT/HIS and 1.HC/2.HC races
The UCI has categorised all races and if you take all races which are either on the World Calendar or have been granted the highest category on the other calendars (1.HC or 2.HC) you will get a nice list of races.
From To Event Ctry Class
25-10-2009 25-10-2009 Japan Cup Cycle Road Race JPN 1.HC
11-11-2009 19-11-2009 Tour of Hainan CHN 2.HC
19-1-2010 24-1-2010 Tour Down Under AUS UPT
27-2-2010 27-2-2010 Omloop Het Nieuwsblad Elite BEL 1.HC
1-3-2010 7-3-2010 Le Tour de Langkawi MAS 2.HC
7-3-2010 14-3-2010 Paris – Nice FRA HIS
10-3-2010 16-3-2010 Tirreno-Adriatico ITA HIS
20-3-2010 20-3-2010 Milano-Sanremo ITA HIS
22-3-2010 28-3-2010 Volta Ciclista a Catalunya ESP UPT
27-3-2010 27-3-2010 E3 Prijs Vlaanderen – Harelbeke BEL 1.HC
27-3-2010 28-3-2010 Critérium International FRA 2.HC
28-3-2010 28-3-2010 Gent – Wevelgem BEL UPT
30-3-2010 1-4-2010 KBC-Driedaagse De Panne-Koksijde BEL 2.HC
3-4-2010 3-4-2010 Gran Premio Miguel Indurain ESP 1.HC
4-4-2010 4-4-2010 Ronde van Vlaanderen / Tour des Flandres BEL UPT
5-4-2010 10-4-2010 Vuelta Ciclista al Pais Vasco ESP UPT
7-4-2010 7-4-2010 Scheldeprijs BEL 1.HC
11-4-2010 11-4-2010 Paris – Roubaix FRA HIS
18-4-2010 18-4-2010 Amstel Gold Race NED UPT
20-4-2010 25-4-2010 Tour de Georgia USA 2.HC
21-4-2010 21-4-2010 La Flèche Wallonne BEL HIS
21-4-2010 28-4-2010 Presidential Cycling Tour of Turkey TUR 2.HC
25-4-2010 25-4-2010 Liège – Bastogne – Liège BEL HIS
27-4-2010 2-5-2010 Tour de Romandie SUI UPT
1-5-2010 1-5-2010 Eschborn-Frankfurt City Loop GER 1.HC
5-5-2010 9-5-2010 4 Jours de Dunkerque / Tour du Nord-pas-de-Calais FRA 2.HC
8-5-2010 30-5-2010 Giro d’Italia ITA HIS
15-5-2010 15-5-2010 Dutch Food Valley Classic NED 1.HC
16-5-2010 23-5-2010 Amgen Tour of California USA 2.HC
26-5-2010 30-5-2010 Tour de Belgique – Ronde van België – Tour of Belgium BEL 2.HC
26-5-2010 30-5-2010 Bayern-Rundfahrt GER 2.HC
2-6-2010 6-6-2010 Skoda-Tour de Luxembourg LUX 2.HC
6-6-2010 6-6-2010 GP du canton d’Argovie, SUI 1.HC
6-6-2010 6-6-2010 Philadelphia International Championship USA 1.HC
6-6-2010 13-6-2010 Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré FRA UPT
12-6-2010 20-6-2010 Tour de Suisse SUI UPT
3-7-2010 25-7-2010 Tour de France FRA HIS
4-7-2010 11-7-2010 Int. Österreich-Rundfahrt-Tour of Austria AUT 2.HC
16-7-2010 25-7-2010 Tour of Qinghai Lake CHN 2.HC
24-7-2010 28-7-2010 Tour de Wallonie BEL 2.HC
31-7-2010 31-7-2010 Clasica Ciclista San Sebastian – San Sebastian ESP UPT
1-8-2010 7-8-2010 Tour de Pologne POL UPT
4-8-2010 8-8-2010 Post Danmark Rundt – Tour of Denmark DEN 2.HC
4-8-2010 8-8-2010 Vuelta a Burgos ESP 2.HC
15-8-2010 15-8-2010 Vattenfall Cyclassics GER UPT
17-8-2010 17-8-2010 Tre Valli Varesine ITA 1.HC
17-8-2010 24-8-2010 Eneco Tour —- UPT
22-8-2010 22-8-2010 GP Ouest France – Plouay FRA UPT
28-8-2010 19-9-2010 Vuelta a España ESP HIS
30-8-2010 5-9-2010 Tour of Missouri USA 2.HC
10-9-2010 10-9-2010 Grand Prix Cycliste de Québec CAN UPT
11-9-2010 11-9-2010 Parijs-Brusssel – Paris-Bruxelles BEL 1.HC
12-9-2010 12-9-2010 GP de Fourmies / La Voix du Nord FRA 1.HC
12-9-2010 12-9-2010 Grand Prix Cycliste de Montréal CAN UPT
26-9-2010 26-9-2010 Tour de Vendée FRA 1.HC
9-10-2010 9-10-2010 Giro dell’Emilia ITA 1.HC
10-10-2010 10-10-2010 Paris – Tours FRA 1.HC
13-10-2010 13-10-2010 Milano-Torino ITA 1.HC
14-10-2010 14-10-2010 Giro del Piemonte ITA 1.HC
16-10-2010 16-10-2010 Giro di Lombardia ITA HIS
Skipping the first three and start with Omloop Het Nieuwsblad gives 57 races.
Plus the World Championship RR + TT.
And I would suggest to leave out the NC’s…
Now just a matter of awarding category 1-5 to these races …
The Tour de Vendee..
I follow a lot of races but never heard of that one!
But it’s a cool calender. Just have to stripe some smaller races. ( Tour de Wallonie, Quinghai Lake, The Dutch Foodfight thing, etc..)
So.. As basis it’s ok
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
'the basis' or better yet, 'starting point'
But if it was me I’d strip the smaller races ;)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
You step on the Tour Down Under
and I cut off your head.
(Sorry, I was channelling someone then.)
Hey, we're more of a flea bite than a guilllotine I think
Even when we think we fight above our weight …
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
this is no time for rational comment, Seahorse
Our national race (pathetic though it is) is under siege, you are living up to your name and are under water, and I am under the influence.
Literally tonight. Just escaped a flood
And Drongo and Lou I’m sorry! You’re right… i still don’t like our chances. But Drongo, you’re being a drongo if you think you can cut Frinking’s head off. i promise it would grow back. and anyway, he’s on our ‘shift’ amongst others ;)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
I wil reincernate as Angerbecco..
So don’t say I didn’t warn you
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
Beccos don't have much longevity here
Will you be like Mr Furious from ‘Mystery Men’?
Please say yes.
No.. (I don't know him!)
But maybe I reincernate as dementor for Vinomort. That would be awesome (:
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
You know I'm a fan, but reincarnation as a dementor is a bridge too far!
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Don't mean to be crass... but the purity thing
Euphemisms are bizarre sometimes :(
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
You've lost me
I thought unicorns scared away dementors. A horse is almost a unicorn; a seahorse is like a seaunicorn perhaps? Okay, it wasn’t funny, but none of my jokes are.
Is that crass? Or are unicorns? Where’s the euphemism?
Did someone mention beer? I’m going to get one.
I have a wine... after fording flood waters I actually deserve one
Unicorns and virgins… it’s really a ‘say no more’ thing that I may not have started had I not had aforementioned wine ;)
And whilst I can be crass, I wait for you and Lou and Frinking because all of you are funny and clever, but never crass. Unfortunately, i sometimes aim for the cheap laugh.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
It sounds like a simple case of ships passing in the night
No blame attached, I’d have thought, except perhaps on my part for missing your meaning.
Besides, Frinking is on occasion crass (surely you remember his ‘hairy chest’ chat-up line — I think that’s what it was), which makes me think you’re being overly kind to us all.
My jokes tend not to cheap, just bad. Example: you’re drinking wine because you were flooded. I must ask: is the wine dry?
(See what I mean?)
Defending Frinking is fraught
but, he’s not crass because nuances are still a half a step away. he is however ‘brilljant’.
And of course it’s a dry wine … more about ‘chardonnay drinking lefties’ than floods..
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
That wasn't crass...
I knew Albertina could handle it… (Ooh and I also think I’m not funny. Thank God there are people who laugh sometimes about my words) (:
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
More like witty and sometimes hilarious :)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Hah! so you know you're funny
But being self-deprecating sometimes is good ;)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Not crass... nah
One work… douche :-(.
And I recall a thread where I got lots of mileage out of majope calling Tony a ‘precious jewel’…
'Douche' is always crass
for me, but the laughs i had outweighed the rest. Know it was a smile. i still cackle – except for the part where I felt I had to explain:)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
One for me too, thanks Drongo
Actually, leave it in the fridge ‘til tomorrow arvo. Just remembered that I’ve gotta go to work tomorrow morning :-(. This is soooo unfair – everyone’s on the piss except me…
I'm working too, unless the flood is still around
I was thinking it may be waning, but it’s pissing down :(
I wish I was as self-regulatory Lou …
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Mr Furious
should be explained by this video. I say ‘should be’ since I haven’t actually watched it, since I don’t have enough internet left this month to watch videos any more.
I'm hoping that you don't start on the first day of the month
because that would be very bad planning ;)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
I realise it was literal
It was my cack-handed way of acknowledging the flood.
As for Frinking, just like the Hydra-headed Aussie triplets, he’ll be just fine.
Especially if he comes back as Angerbecco =(
Frinking have you checked your dictionary for ‘drongo’?
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Now I have..
But no bird mis too high for a Becco.. Remember that.
p.s. I had my Spanish Exam today and it went mucho bueno!
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
Fantastic news! Now you can relax :)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Maybe I better prepare for the, I think 9 examens after Christmas....
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
'I'd better prepare' is good
but for ‘exams’
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Me too, but man Frinking has a high bar :)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Huh.. But if I say that it's like I was talking about the examens this week no?
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
(Oh oh.. Now I'm ruining your believe in my qualitu of English)
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
No I'm going to teach my students Fringlisch. it has more colour ;)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
No, 'I'd better start preparing for the exams after Christmas' is good.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
detatails, details, details..
If you continue I will speak English :S
What do you fear most?
1. coup d’etat
2. putsch
When I saw 89 new comments
my first thought was, this has to be about goats…
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 6, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
By the way...
The full (ie. not abbreviated) word for ‘exams’ is ‘examinations’ in English.
‘Examens’ is French.
"examen" is also the Spanish singular for test. "Examenes" is plural.
Frinking’s getting it down :-)
by Douglas Ansel on Nov 6, 2009 8:40 PM EST up reply actions
At risk of pointing out the obvious
‘examens’ is also Dutch ;-).
I have been telling you all about Frinking’s Cunning Plan (to surreptitiously get us all speaking Dutch)… but you won’t believe me…
I used to think
the Dutch spoke better English than most native anglophones. Or at least fellow Americans. Thanks to Frinking for disabusing me of that silly notion.
"The road is our agony, but also our daily bread; and at night, when it is deserted and the moon glistens on the asphalt, the ridiculous dreams of racers like us pass up and down it."
--Dino Buzzati
You may be right
… I wouldn’t know. I haven’t heard enough Americans speaking English to be able to tell ;-)
(now I’m off to don my fire-proof underwear)
It doesn't just refer to a bird
Here’s a primer.
I could give you the full etymology, but I’ll leave that for another day.
And well done on the Spanish exam!
Yeah
And what about the PdC folks, worldwide, who were tuning in to ABC Adelaide over the ‘net, and screaming for the intermittent race updates? It wasn’t such a boring and irrelevant race then. now was it?
Incidentally, from a VDS perspective, I’m not fussed one way or the other, LOL. (Although I am giving thought to participating next year… someone has to rake up all of the points that Vino’s gonna earn, ’eh? ;-) …)
Agree on all points ;)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
First we were mozzies, now fleas
I reckon you might be speaking for yourself there, Seahorse ;-)
Ask yourself, 'What would Fatso do?'
He’d bare his arse at his detractors and beat them all!
Let us follow (even if figuratively) his example.
Fatso would nestle into Michael Klim's six pack ;)
Failing that, he’d fight. Right, TDU forever… doesn’t really sound like me, but actually i agree. We take a stand… and then we can wait for Lurker to arrive three hours from now and open fire. Hah!
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Something I've noticed the last few VDS seasons.
After the Tour there seems to be a general loss of interest by many if not most who are totally out of the running. I have a suggestion that might increase interest later in the season significantly. Break the season up into two or three sub competitions. Each sub comp would end at a predetermined point of the season and there would be a winner. For the next race everyone starts the next series of races at zero with the same team and we have a renewed interest for every one. When we get to the end of the season all scores will be totalled to determine the overall winner.
Again the reason for this idea is to promote interest in the VDS through the Vuelta and Lombardia for everyone. Also hoping that breaking up the season this way doesn’t create too much extra work and takes advantage of existing framework.
Cancellara was robbed! There is none better.
I like the idea of breaking up the season
But realize it means more work. But we already have sub-competitions for each GT. How about a sub-competition or two focusing on the classics for, e.g., cobbles season, and/or the Ardennes, and/or the five monuments — for those of us who can’t resist stacking our rosters with hardmen?
"The road is our agony, but also our daily bread; and at night, when it is deserted and the moon glistens on the asphalt, the ridiculous dreams of racers like us pass up and down it."
--Dino Buzzati
Table this one
I need to see what the whole VDS program looks like before we can think about sub-competitions, but I do like the idea.
"Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!" Philippe Gilbert
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 6, 2009 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
I'll remind you
"The road is our agony, but also our daily bread; and at night, when it is deserted and the moon glistens on the asphalt, the ridiculous dreams of racers like us pass up and down it."
--Dino Buzzati
The extra competitions for the Tour etc. create extra work because we pick new teams.
What I was proposing would allow people to reset scores with the same teams/riders. How a season got divided would determine what the competitions were. I like the 5 Monuments idea though but that would be a fairly simple matter to add the 5 scores together, we could do that today. Might make a fun fanpost sometime to compare scores.
Cancellara was robbed! There is none better.
I wouldn't propose separate competitions
That’s probably too much work. Plus I doubt there is interest out there among newbies for a classics/monument comp — they are naturally drawn to the Tour. But it would be cool to have a classics or monuments classification within the year-long.
Full disclosure — I can never resist stocking my team with one-day hardmen, hence my interest.
"The road is our agony, but also our daily bread; and at night, when it is deserted and the moon glistens on the asphalt, the ridiculous dreams of racers like us pass up and down it."
--Dino Buzzati
I think we’re going to see a continued increase in high level racing in Northa America in late Aug-Sept.
30-8-2010 5-9-2010 Tour of Missouri USA 2.HC
10-9-2010 10-9-2010 Grand Prix Cycliste de Québec CAN UPT
12-9-2010 12-9-2010 Grand Prix Cycliste de Montréal CAN UPT
And if the last two races there aren’t on the VDS schedule you just may see the politest can o’ whoop-ass opening ever.
"It looks like talking, but it’s just words that comes out"
~ Andy Schleck
I like the last two lines
But they need way cooler names.
by Douglas Ansel on Nov 6, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
They all ride
for Vaughters.
"The road is our agony, but also our daily bread; and at night, when it is deserted and the moon glistens on the asphalt, the ridiculous dreams of racers like us pass up and down it."
--Dino Buzzati
Because their idea of decent weather is different from ours.
Toronto bike races
Cancellara was robbed! There is none better.
It may have to with people who know people who know people...
The race promoter (Serge Arsenault) was the man behind the Grand Prix des Amériques in the late 80s. He also organized the short lived Tour Trans-Canada (won by Guido Trentin) in 99 so the UCI know him from a long time. Arsenault owns the Canal Evasion tv channel which broadcasts the Tour de France in July (our only live cycling of the year). One of the analysts working on the show is Bernard Vallet (1982 Tour polka dot jersey winner). Vallet is a friend of Serge Arsenault, and he’s also working a lot with the UCI (I think he’s one of the race officials on the Dauphiné). So it’s a safe bet that Arsenault used his contacts with Vallet and the UCI to make this happen.
But it’s true that with Arsenault and Mannibal (he runs the womens World Cup) we have two great race promoters.
Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill (F. Coppi)
I'm all for including Philly next year.
To me it’s just as important and similar in nature to French or Italian semi-classics. More domestic teams than PT races, but big guys from numerous teams are gunning for the win.
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