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Wiggins takes a step backwards

This week Bradley Wiggins has finally completed his move from Garmin-Slipstream to the new British outfit Team Sky. Ever since he finished 4th in the Tour de France last July, this transfer has been rumored, and with a Tour contender shaped hole on the Team Sky roster it seemed like a probable move. I honestly thought that Team Sky had missed the boat and the rider transfer wouldn’t happen until next year. Most teams have already started their winter training camps and all team roster changes are usually finalised before November. Wiggins’ signing has come very late in the day and Team Sky boss Dave Brailsford has finally landed the Tour contender he so dearly wanted. I had suggested in a previous post that Team Sky could not take a Tour place for granted and they could be up against it to secure a wild card invitation to the French Grand Tour next year. With the signing of Wiggins they still can’t take a Tour place as a given, but they now have a much better chance of being extended an invite at the expense of one of the weaker teams.

The transfer itself seemed to be a very drawn out process which was never far from the headlines. Garmin boss Jonathan Vaughters had repeatedly stated that Wiggins had a year left on his Garmin contract and that he expected the rider to honour that contract. Wiggins had been saying the same, sort of. He also said, now infamously, that to win the Champion’s League you need to be playing for a team like Manchester United, but he was currently at a team more like Wigan Athletic. Now Bradley Wiggins has gotten his wish and has moved to what he feels is a stronger team than Garmin and he will now have the chance to chase road success with the same backup team that supported him throughout his success on the track. His goal next year will undoubtedly be to finish on the podium in the Tour de France, but by leaving his Garmin team mates behind has he really put himself in a better position to achieve this goal?

Star-divide

As I see it, the Tour teams of Team Sky and Garmin-Transitions (as they’ll be known next season) will look something like this:

 

   Possible 2010 Tour de France lineups for Bradley Wiggins' new team and former team.

Possible 2010 Tour de France lineups for Bradley Wiggins' new team and former team.

Firstly, looking at the team mates Wiggins has left behind; he would have been able to call on the climbing talents of Ryder Hesjedal, Tom Danielson, Dan Martin and Christian Vande Velde. Hesjedal won a mountainous stage of the Vuelta a Espana this year and will be riding all out as a domestique for Wiggins in return for a protected rider status at the 2010 Vuelta. Danielson will be doing the same having put in a solid performance at this year’s Vuelta, abandoning with an illness on stage 18 whilst in 9th place overall, having previously finished in the top 10 twice in the Spanish Grand Tour. Dan Martin is a young, up and coming pure climber who served effectively as a domestique to Danielson in the Vuelta. Christian Vande Velde has himself finished 4th in the Tour de France (2008) and proved himself to be invaluable to Wiggins’ challenge for a podium spot this year.

In addition to the climbing talent, there’s the time trialling expertise of David Millar and David Zabriskie who can both also be relied upon to do a turn on the lower slopes as the road rises upwards. The two Davids will also be expected to form part of the sprint train for the young American Tyler Farrar who will be harvesting hopes of defeating Mark Cavendish in the bunch sprints. Julian Dean will also be employed as a lead out man for Farrar. The final rider will be Johan van Summeren who is an all rounder who is regarded as one of the best domestiques in the peloton.

 

Not much will change for Garmin, who started the 2008 and 2009 Tours with the goal of getting Christian Vande Velde on the podium. Wiggins’ new found climbing ability was still in the unknown stage when he took to the start of the Tour de France, the transition of Wiggins to team leader only occurred once the Tour had already started. Getting Vande Velde on the podium will again be Garmin’s goal in 2010, along with stage victories for Farrar.

Now to Wiggins’ new team mates at Team Sky: Kurt Asle Arvesen, Kjell Carlstrom and Juan Antonio Flecha are all experienced Tour riders with fifteen Tour starts between them. But they are riders more suited to the spring classics, and therefore at the Tour, will not be much use as domestiques for Wiggins in the mountains. The two other Brits in the team, Thomas and Froome have only ridden the Tour once each and again are not ideally suited to protecting Wiggins in the high mountains. Edvald Boasson Hagen will be making his Tour debut and will be expected to challenge the likes of Cavendish, Farrar and Hushovd for sprint victories with Flecha, Arvesen and Thomas forming a lead out train.

That leaves Wiggins with Simon Gerrans and Thomas Lovkvist as the two most likely men to be there or thereabouts when he requires protection in the high mountains. However, while Gerrans is a competent climber, the reason he left Cervelo is because he didn’t fit the bill as a domestique for Carlos Sastre and ultimately didn’t make the Tour team. It will be hard now to convince Gerrans to curb his quest for stage wins in favour of riding for Wiggins. Lovkvist, until Wiggins came along, was under the impression that he would be assuming the role of leader of Team Sky at the Tour next year. Perhaps his nose will now be slightly bent out of shape having been bumped down to the role of domestique for Bradley Wiggins.

On paper I feel that Garmin are stronger in all areas than Team Sky. They are a more rounded team with clearer goals in mind for the Tour. Obviously, Dave Brailsford’s goal for the Tour will be to get Wiggins on the podium, but he’ll have a tough time motivating and preparing  the rest of the team for this task. Wiggins may think he’s secured his move from Wigan to Man United, but I can’t help but feel he’s done the opposite.

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Excellent summary

On paper, I think Sky’s roster looks stronger on a man-to-man comparison. But on the road with a goal of getting a podium at the TdF, I will take Garmin. More of a team built for one GC guy with more riders focused on the singular goal and not personal ambitions. I have a feeling Sky is the new SIlence-Lotto of TdF. We all will be typing furiously in the live threads “Where is Wiggins’ teammates!!.”

by PopUp Rolen on Dec 11, 2009 11:07 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Or perhaps, 'Where is Wiggins?'

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Dec 11, 2009 11:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent comments from David Millar on CN about Sky
“With all the resources they have, they need to live up to what they propose, which is a podium in the Tour de France and being one of the best teams in the world. If they don’t do that, in their eyes, they’ll have failed.”

Full story here.

by PopUp Rolen on Dec 11, 2009 12:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Way to play

the expectations game. Of course, he’s on solid footing. Sky are making a rather loud entrance now.

"The only pain I got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is." Edvald Boasson Hagen

by Chris... on Dec 11, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great summary of the teams' strengths and weaknesses.

I agree that Sky seems stronger in some respects, namely in how strong individual riders are, but they really do lack in the workers category once they hit anything over a Cat 2 climb (Lovkvist aside). This should be particularly troubling for Wiggo with the mountainous route of le Tour this year. I can forsee a few circumstances in which Wiggins may get tailed off the leading group on a high mountain pass and lack the teammates around him to latch back on easily, causing him to expend much more energy and subsequently place more poorly. While I can understand his desire to be a part of Sky from a national standpoint, he would be better off professionally if he’d stayed with Garmin and let Brailsford et al know that they should strengthen their climbing contingent for the 2011 season, at which point Wiggins would transfer.

by dansel on Dec 11, 2009 12:05 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

In a nutshell
I can forsee a few circumstances in which Wiggins may get tailed off the leading group on a high mountain pass and lack the teammates around him to latch back on easily, causing him to expend much more energy and subsequently place more poorly

This is why this is a questionable move for Wiggins.

Interestingly I see Contador potentially being in a similar position on the big climbs, but it not being any where near the issue for him.

"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi

by muk on Dec 11, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The huge missing factor in your analizis

is that Garmin will undoubtedly (and would have even with Wiggo) dedicate a lot more manpower to get stagewins for Farrar. I highly doubt the team will look the way you theorize. I doubt BubbleBoy will get on the team for instance, one more sprintsupport is much more likely.

by Jens on Dec 11, 2009 12:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps

but then who’s protecting EBH? Froome? Sky might throw another body or two in for him.

"The only pain I got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is." Edvald Boasson Hagen

by Chris... on Dec 11, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thomas

Think he’s more a flat land headbanger than Froome

by thebongolian on Dec 11, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He is

He’s a pursuiter as well, but hasn’t lost the weight Wiggo has.

by dansel on Dec 11, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

he’s set pursuit times better than wiggins also a winner of junior paris-roubaix

so basically shedloads of potential and he’s still only 23 or something

be really interesting to see what he can do if he focusses on the road, as part of a better team than Barloword, and doesn’t have a shocker like he did last year

by thebongolian on Dec 11, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think he will be on the team...

Michael Barry and Greg Henderson have too much experience

by Vlaanderen90 on Dec 11, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Makes me wonder how many Brits Sky will feel it has to take to the tour

I think Barry could claim a British passport – if I were him I’d grab it fast than you can say Greg Rusedski

by thebongolian on Dec 11, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There's a fine tradition of sports stars pretending to be English

Zola Budd, Graeme Hick, Tony Greig, Robin Smith, Kevin Petersen, Martin McCague, Jonathon Trott, Mike Catt, Henry Paul, Owen Hargreaves, &c., &c.

by Drongo on Dec 11, 2009 6:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey, I just called McCague a sports star! I wonder if that’s happened before.
(He was a little unfairly maligned.)

by Drongo on Dec 11, 2009 6:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

almost as fine as the aussie / nz tradition...

…of having fijians, samoans etc in the rugger sides

or the irish football teams search for players with one finean grandparent

by thebongolian on Dec 12, 2009 5:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Obviously I can only guess at the Tour teams

And no doubt I won’t have gotten either of them exactly right. But my point is that Garmin are an established team with riders who know their place and have ridden the Tour together before. Team Sky are a team with lots of money and lots of ambition, however they will have a tough time convincing riders to get behind Wiggins 100% when the reason plenty of their riders left their old teams was because they were being forced to ride for others and were suffocating as a result.

http://www.irishpeloton.com/

by irishpeloton on Dec 11, 2009 12:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Lövkvist and Gerrans might fit that description

I think its safe to vouch for Lövkvist. If told to ride for Wiggo , he will without reservations. Gerrans may be a wild card, I can’t say.
I do think it’s safe to say BW will have a less divided team , objectives wise, on Sky.

by Jens on Dec 11, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Zabriskie and Pate are always willing to go into the lead-out train if they need to...

that would make it 3 or 4 man protection. they just need to learn when to start pulling, not at 5km to go.

by Vlaanderen90 on Dec 11, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Garmin needs to time better, then they’ll have a formidable train. Esp with Captain America and Millar dragging them around with 2-3km to go

by dansel on Dec 11, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

point me to the footage where Zabriskie

was in a lead-out train when it counted. He sure wasn’t there on the Champs.

Millar, otoh, is willing to mix it up.

by R Mc on Dec 11, 2009 5:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Dave Z is less than happy at the business end of the peloton

according to various comments on here in the past – bad crash a few years back and he’s been jittery since was the rumour

by thebongolian on Dec 11, 2009 6:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm glad you said this. I thought I was imagining things...

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Dec 11, 2009 8:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Zabriskie is usually there from 5k to 3ishk and then pulls off.

What happened on the Champs was all Julian Dean’s fault and another argument that he shouldn’t be a leadout man

by Vlaanderen90 on Dec 12, 2009 2:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was thinking the same thing

I’m guessing Hunter will replace Bubble Boy

Tickets are bought, Belgium here I come!

by jsallee00 on Dec 11, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Robbie Hunter ahead of Danielson

"Drawing on my fine command of language I said nothing."- Groucho

by Mark Frank on Dec 12, 2009 8:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

RH to the TdF

I believe it was in the famous “argyle… chicks dig it…” interview that JV said Garmin had hired Robbie Hunter specifically to have somebody to knock heads with the Columbia lead out train. Garmin won’t have Hunter on the sidelines in July.

by ManBicycleThing on Dec 12, 2009 12:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

intangibles

the Tour is the most demanding, unique race in the world, south of Oudenaarde. So whatever time Wiggins spends riding with his team will just barely prepare them for the demands of riding as a team at the Tour. Garmin have two years and two Tours under their belt. Big advantage.

"The only pain I got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is." Edvald Boasson Hagen

by Chris... on Dec 11, 2009 12:31 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

From what i can see, I think Garmin has major advantages. You don't need 8 guys around VandeVelde so they have a solid group in

Millar, Hesjedal, Martin and Zabriskie. Farrar will have Dean, Van Summeren and maybe somebody like Pate who can do a bit of everything. These guys have years more of experience and after their positive Vuelta experience they should be ready to do some damage.

I just don’t see Sky as being all together. Yes they have Wiggins but unless something happens Lovkvist is going to be in the 1st chase group behind him on the climbs. Gerrans and EBH are chasing a stage or 2. Sure, they will have workhorses in Flecha, Arvesen, Barry, etc. but they are going to have to prove that they can be a cohesive unit. My lineup: Wiggins, Lovkvist, Arvesen, EBH, Gerrans, Barry, Cioni, Pauwels and either Froome or Hendi

by Vlaanderen90 on Dec 11, 2009 2:46 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

My favorite story ever in CycleSport

is one from this year where Robbie McEwen re-tells the stories of his biggest wins. If he has read it too it’s hard to think Farrar won’t be crying with joy at the signing of Vansummeren.

by Jens on Dec 11, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey Jens

Can you recount the story for those of us who haven’t read the article? Was it the tour stage win in 2007 after the crash?

by slowK on Dec 11, 2009 4:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

From the article re Canterbury – Stage 1, 07 Tour

“Once I crashed I knew I was stuffed. In the last 20K, if you crash you are stuffed, you don’t often get back on. I had the shits. But a team-mate, I think it was Vansummeren, picked up my bike and said , “Let’s go, we’re going to chase.”
He starts riding and I’m on his wheel, grumbling. I thought you can ride as hard as you want, they’re never coming back. It’s a lost cause.
He was riding that hard that as we passed people held up by the crash, they tried to get on his wheel and couldn’t. He was riding really fast……and because I was angry I was sitting on his wheel.
We came round a corner and there was another four team-mates, Hoste, Van Sevannant, Cioni and Aerts, they (incl VS) rode a full team time trial and they got back onto the cars"

by andrewp on Dec 11, 2009 7:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I love the PdC

I go to sleep and someone else does my work for me. Now if I could just arrange the same thing for my job……

by Jens on Dec 12, 2009 1:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

thanks

for that.

love hearing about the unrecognised, hard work the domestiques do.

by slowK on Dec 13, 2009 7:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Serge Pauwels can be a decent climbing domestique

He was one of the best ones Sastre had in the Giro (when he was with him)

by dansel on Dec 11, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wow

you gave tommy d a tour slot… (here’s hoping but he hasn’t had the best any luck on that score.)

George bunny-hopped my bike somehow. He's like a cat. -- cvv

by cg. on Dec 11, 2009 3:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

So you are saying Wiggo is going from Wigan to Portsmouth?

I agree with the analysis, as people have said above Sky is probably a more complete team for all races but not as strong for the Tour when it comes to GC rider support. I think Wiggins need to go to team Sky immediately will hurt him in the short run, Sky will probably have more GC support in years to come when better domestiques become available. Of course if Wiggins turns out to be a one hit wonder it all won’t matter anyway, I think a 4th or 5th is the best he can do next year anyway, no matter which team he is on.

Look, it's a bird...no, it's a plane....oh never mind it's just fucking balloon boy

by Phil H. on Dec 11, 2009 6:07 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I still wonder whether they will get an invite

I suspect that the old, anti-doping, ASO would have just said no. Now the question is whether the new ASO and SKy’s people are working out some revenge deal behind the scenes to do unto Garmin as RCS did unto Ceramica Flaminia this year.

by Monty. on Dec 11, 2009 6:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if Sky are not invited

to the 2010 Tour, their cheque book could guarantee going to the 2011 edition by signing a certain spanish rider who will be out of contract this time next year, meaning Wiggo would never get the chance of winning the Tour.

by lucybears on Dec 11, 2009 6:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

would

not be surprised. But we will never know……

by lucybears on Dec 11, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You serious think.. Sky is going to sign Conta?

I don’t think that is ever going to happen..

by Frinking on Dec 12, 2009 5:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

    Brailsford’s stated goal is to win the Tour as, and with English riders. If he just wanted to win the Tour he could have bought Astana or backed Alfonso’s effort.

"Drawing on my fine command of language I said nothing."- Groucho

by Mark Frank on Dec 12, 2009 8:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Makes me wonder - what are the ways to win the tour (or at least place highly)?

There’s clearly the Disco model of grinding your opponents into submission

Sastre and CSC won slightly differently by having a multi-pronged but cohesive attack – each of the Schlecks an Sastre seemed prepared to lay on the line for one another

For Garmin or Sky it strikes me their best bet is to sit in and conserve behind others, limit losses and only do something right at the end – with next year’s course favouring climbers over TT-ers that strategy seems likely to me to result in top 5 at best for either of them

by thebongolian on Dec 11, 2009 6:30 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Call me overly optimistic

But I believe JV when he says CVV can podium. I have serious faith in the guy.

by dansel on Dec 11, 2009 7:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Meaning...

I think CVV can beat Lance. I think he’s a better climber, if we take this year’s tour as an indicator from Lance. CVV in 08 was pretty dang good uphill and I think he can put Lance in a spot of bother, and then not lose too much time at all in the TT. All he has to do is stay healthy and in one piece…

Of course, I doubt anybody comes within 2 minutes of Shlecklet and 3min of Bert.

by dansel on Dec 11, 2009 7:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i'd love to see him do it

but it’s a tough podium nowadays with conta and andy taking two spots on it. Just one left to fight over.

by yeehoo on Dec 13, 2009 6:20 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok.. My Tourteams with ranking

Wiggens – VandeVelde 1-1
Lovkvist – Daniel Martin 1-0
Pauwels – Kesiakoff 1-1
Gerrans – Hesjedal 1-1
Calzati – Millar 0-1
Arvesen – Dean 1-1
Barry – Vansummeren 1-1
EBH – Farrar 0-1

Ok WTF.. They are totally equal.. Maybe Farrar doesn’t even win it… Maybe someone else see the difference

by Frinking on Dec 11, 2009 7:27 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Ahh, the problem with using ordinal scales.

Gotta break out the interval measures. Of course, then we enter the great world of subjectivity…

by dansel on Dec 11, 2009 7:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Here's my totally subjective breakdown

Wiggins (1) – Vande Velde (1)
Lovkvist (1) – Dan Martin (.5)
Pauwels (1) – Kesiakoff (1)
Gerrans (.75) – Hesjedal (1)
Calzati (.25) – MIllar (1)
Arvesen (1) – Dean (.75)
Barry (1) – Vansummeren (.75)
EBH (.75) – Farrar (1)

Sky (6.75)
Garmin (7.00)

I weigh the guys more on how they can help the GC guys than sprints, but they’re still dang close to equal. But somehow I just think that Garmin is going to be more cohesive, which amplifies how strong their guys are.

by dansel on Dec 11, 2009 7:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ah well.. You could make the category

DS (0 till 1.5)
Harmony (0 till 2)
Experience (0 till 1)
Than you can also compensate that..
And on the Vansummeren think.. I don’t think Barry is ‘better’ than him. Vansummeren is like a machine

by Frinking on Dec 11, 2009 7:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yup. Vansummeren was a great signing for Garmin.

Very strong, good in the classics, and strikes me as a real team player.

It was just a long race--Edvald Boasson Hagen, on the Giro

by majope on Dec 11, 2009 7:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and stupdest = stupidest

godammit cafeine start working!

by thebongolian on Dec 12, 2009 5:20 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This has all taken a very Frinkingesque turn...

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Dec 12, 2009 5:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No you don't ;) Nevertheless, I don't understand you or Vlaanderen here

which is probably inconsequential… ha
PS. I did understand the rugby comment, but have worked hard to suppress a snarky reply ;)

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Dec 12, 2009 5:31 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As an Englishman I'm not commenting from a position of strength

Too many of our best players have been cadged from the colonies

by thebongolian on Dec 12, 2009 5:35 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you for that acknowledgement ;)

I think you’ll find that Lote, Phil et al were born or raised here. (Listen to them. They have an authentic grasp of strine).

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Dec 12, 2009 5:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

but not Ilie Tabua, for example

by Drongo on Dec 12, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Translation of smart one?

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Dec 12, 2009 5:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Huh.. Now I miss you..

But I would put purest in stead of realest teamplayer in Vlaanderen 90’s comment

by Frinking on Dec 12, 2009 5:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Referring to Van Summeren?

I like purest, but ‘best’ would be my choice..

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Dec 12, 2009 5:51 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, but sometimes simplest is the most pure and therefore the best.

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Dec 12, 2009 6:05 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, that was a bit confusing but I was also trying to poke fun at his

for being blind to the fact that he was probably stronger than Hoste on the day and instead was so focused on being the team player

by Vlaanderen90 on Dec 12, 2009 5:52 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks... Fringlisch is fun though

I just hate it when I can’t unravel it…

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Dec 12, 2009 5:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He I could work with it but you're right..

I have no clue why he is so eager to let other people win.. Put yourself behind Hoste seems very strange to me.. He already rode a couple top 10 places in PR (I think) and when a rider fell real damage is done. Especially in PR. You never be as strong as before.

by Frinking on Dec 12, 2009 5:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Reading this, I now understand what you were both trying to say.

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Dec 12, 2009 6:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But he wasn't riding for himself, he was riding for Hoste.

Vansummeren, like I said, Jens implied, and andrewp posted the story to illustrate, is an incredible team player.

Supposedly, he’s going to get the chance to ride for himself in some of the classics this year. Can’t wait to see that—or the support riding he does for Vande Velde at the Tour.

It’s a bit sad because we all really liked Wiggo, and I think he wasn’t quite as noble as he could have been in his departure--David Millar

by majope on Dec 12, 2009 9:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

unless you're Boonen or Hinault

both of whom won PR after falling down.

by R Mc on Dec 12, 2009 10:00 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Would be truer to say he doesn't have the excuse of being Frinking...

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Dec 12, 2009 7:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't go diffusing the situation, Seahorse!

… and pass me the popcorn, please…

by Lou... on Dec 12, 2009 8:24 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Woke up, the sesh had 35 new comments

Should have known it started with some bit of Fringlish…

by dansel on Dec 12, 2009 9:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

being dutch is a good excuse for lots of things...

wearing very orange clothes for starters, dancing on tables in ski boots, being tall and thin…

but what really it was that I don’t have the excuse of speaking English as a second language

by thebongolian on Dec 12, 2009 9:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This is getting complicated.

Might be a task to tackle once I get the french press going.

by dansel on Dec 11, 2009 8:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hmmm

Wiggans-VdV: hard to figure, so I’ll accept the even.

Outside of that, I’m not sure if I agree with all of the match-ups . . .

Lovkvist-Martin—:L but only for this year, and that one’s closer than we might think.

Pauwels-K-kov: agree even.

Gerrans, Hesjedal: disagree—Gerrans has more off-days.

agree about Calzati Millar

disagree about Arvesen re Dean: Arvesen much more useful to a team trying to win a tour.

Barry-Vansummeren: I think this one goes to the big Belgian, but first Barry has to actually make the Tour team. He’s either been passed over or injured in every other team he’s been in.

EBH-Farrar . . . well, for a team trying to win or really go after the podium, neither one of these guys should even be in the squad. BUT in terms of which rider would be better suited to be a good GC helper: it would be da Boss.

by R Mc on Dec 11, 2009 7:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You;re right about Farrar-EBH..

But we have to stripe Dean also for Garmin because he’s only helping Farrar.. But I have the same felling about Hesjedal and Gerrans. They are more stage hunters than GC helpers

by Frinking on Dec 11, 2009 7:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Definitely for Gerrans

But Hesjedal will provide more help on the earlier parts of mountain stages when he’s not riding off into the distance. I think he’s more valuable for the GC guy.

by dansel on Dec 11, 2009 8:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fringlisch question

When you “stripe” people, do you mean “strike” (as in crossing out their names from a list) or “strip” (as in taking them away—doesn’t quite work in English, at least without another word or two added)?

It was just a long race--Edvald Boasson Hagen, on the Giro

by majope on Dec 11, 2009 8:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I always thought he meant strip...

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Dec 11, 2009 8:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You could be right--you seem to have a knack for Fringlisch.

It was just a long race--Edvald Boasson Hagen, on the Giro

by majope on Dec 11, 2009 8:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm, not sure how to take that... it's colourful though and I love that...

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Dec 11, 2009 8:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Strike means to rule someone out.

If you strip someone of something – medals, clothes- it means you take them off. In sport, being stripped of a medal/ result is always bad. A stripe is a wide line.

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Dec 11, 2009 9:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Are you up to English lessons at this time of night/morning?

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Dec 11, 2009 9:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Read again after sleep and maybe when sober?

An Australian your age awake after a big Friday night would almost inevitably have had a big night out. There would be beer involved ;)

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Dec 11, 2009 9:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you've left out Augustyn who is a mountain goat...

he even survives crashes like one.

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Dec 11, 2009 8:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I totally missed him

but.. I think he was also jinxed by my VDS team.. Serious.. He did absolutely nothing this year. I remember him being injured but he’s results are very disapointing

by Frinking on Dec 11, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Barloworld was the problem. I expect big things.

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Dec 11, 2009 9:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't disagree, but I'm not sure that it was the best place to develop his talent...

Not sure I understand the support bit, but I think Augustyn could support Wiggins in the mountains.

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Dec 11, 2009 9:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

problem was barloworld didn't really race anything this year

they went to the Giro and were horribly anonymous – didn’t Soler fall off again?

LBL and RVV weren’t really races for them and everything else seemed to be small Italian races

by thebongolian on Dec 12, 2009 5:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Dario Cioni moved to Sky also.

He’s an ideal gregario for Wiggins if needed.

by Ryan_Liles on Dec 11, 2009 10:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

+1

if he hasn’t lost all his oomph. His last efforts at *Lotto looked decidedly unimpressive but that could be a motivational thing as well.

by Jens on Dec 12, 2009 1:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, and he was nearly invisible this year with ISD

Lets hope a change gets him back to where he was

by dansel on Dec 12, 2009 9:41 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Its a step backward. Sky is a great team with Wiggins and EBH but

the real comparison is taking Wiggins away from Sky and giving him to Garmin as would be the case if he didn’t transfer. Then you have Wiggins, Vandevelde, Martin, Hesjedal and Danielson in the mountains and that quantity and quality is what makes the difference.

I waited a half an hour to give my two toddlers breakfast until I had my Eneco tour coverage sorted, then made sure I got them fed before the sprint. --- Bought With Blood. ..... Hmmm, my kinda people. If only they could explain to my wife why my bike belongs in the house and not the garage. --- Thevaro

by thevaro on Dec 12, 2009 1:12 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Twit du Jour
I’ve had some Horrible messages from some brainless wankers who feel my move to sky has somehow affected there own lives!
Wouldn’t piss on these wankers if they were on fire!
What aload of pompous drivel! I expected better!

Wiggins on Twitter
Brad=emotional and impulsive, I get that. And I’m sure a lot of people haven’t held back letting him know that they weren’t happy with either the move itself or the way it was handled. I’m sure it’s upsetting stuff to read.

But “I expected better!”??? That’s a bit clueless. I’m guessing Wiggo still doesn’t have a firm grasp on this whole celebrity thing. Hope he can handle the increased pressure…and that Sky starts some media training real soon.

It’s a bit sad because we all really liked Wiggo, and I think he wasn’t quite as noble as he could have been in his departure--David Millar

by majope on Dec 12, 2009 10:02 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

He expected better for leaving in the middle of a contract...

I guess he was expecting parades in his honor for choosing the flag

by Vlaanderen90 on Dec 12, 2009 10:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I love his petulance... it moves the mantle from Cadel's shoulders

Taking himself off Twitter would be a start. I bet his new team are thrilled…

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Dec 12, 2009 10:31 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Huh

He deleted his tweets. Or should I say “bahleeted”?

Shame on the way he handled the whole thing. I’d have supported him even after he moved to Sky, but this entitlement issue he has is just…ugh.

by danceny on Dec 13, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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