Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Auto Racer Jeffrey Earnhardt Excited to Make MMA Debut

The Best Of The Aughts: The VM Rankings

 

Stats_medium

This is part two of ranking the riders of the Aughts. For part one, the CQ rankings, go here

Let's do a little exercise.

Imagine that you are on a panel that will decide for all who the best riders of the decade were. Fans worldwide will read what you decide. You and your fellow panelers (us PdC folks-who better to decide, I ask you?) are looking at each rider's accomplishments and before you is the resume of the next applicant. Ideally we could give you the riders' resumes without their names but since you follow the seasons pretty closely you will no doubt guess this guy in the first sentence. For the rest of you, let's just give this guy a cleverly disguised pseudonym: "D. Rebellin." ;) Here's what he has to say:

I would like you to consider me as one of the best riders of the decade as I was one of the best riders in the hilly classics. My biggest accomplishment, one that was unprecedented and unrepeatable, was winning the Ardennes treble-Amstel Gold, La Fleche Wallonne, and Liege-Bastogne-Liege, one after the other, in 2004. As I said, no one before or since has accomplished this feat. I also won La Fleche in 2007 and just last year, 2009. In fact all through the decade I was The major rider in those races with teams scheming against me. Even with the scheming I regularly made the podium and top ten there and at similar races as San Sebastian (a race I won in 1997), and when the World Championship road race was more than flat as a pancake. For instance:

2008: 2nd at LBL, 6th at La Fleche, 4th at Amstel, 3rd at San Seb, 2nd at the Olympics, 4th at the Worlds, and 2nd at the Giro dell'Emilia.

2007: 2nd at Amstel, 1st La Fleche, 5th at LBL, 11st at San Seb6th at the Worlds, 2nd at Emilia, and 5th at Lombardia.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

With stage races I have two highlight wins: Tirreno-Adriatico in 2001 and Paris-Nice in 2008.

My full list of accomplishments is on the following page and it is a long one with numerous podium finishes.

Finally I was the unquestioned leader on the Gerolsteiner Pro Tour team from 2002-2008. Name me another rider who had such a similar run of captaincy in the Aughts! In closing you will note that I have the 2nd highest Cycling Quotient score in the Aughts with 14280 points. I very much hope that you put me on the Best of the Aughts Cycling Team. 

Star-divide

Now that he has left the room, let's look at "D. Rebellin's" record more closely.

The Strengths: He is right; he was one of the best Ardennes and hilly Classic riders of the decade. And that 2004 treble is uniquely difficult, a singular accomplishment. One thing for sure, Tin Tin knew what races he was good at and he raced them hard with lots of high placings, including the two major stage race wins. The Little Prince among many others, would do well to learn from his example. 

But look more critically. He was very good in the hilly Classics, yes, but he rarely won them. That 2004 treble was a fluke, a freak accomplishment. Given that he was always thought of as a potential winner pre-race, the fact that he only won these races five times in the decade speaks volumes for his lack of being able to finish off a race. In no way could you say that he was dominant in his favorite races. Very competitive, yes. Dominant, no. 

Then you look at all the other non hilly Classics. He was a playa in the early season stage races Paris-Nice and Tirreno Adriatico, winning each once. But he wasn't a factor at all in any other stage races except the low level Brixia Tour.  Grand Tours? He has a total of one stage win in a Grand Tour, the 96 Giro, so you have to say he did nothing to enhance his reputation there. Cobbles? Barely touched the bouncy pave. 

So what you got is a very competitive hilly Classic guy who rarely branched out beyond that and almost never had success when he did. You got a guy who was a team leader on a mid to low level Pro Tour team, a relatively low pressure environment. Was he a good rider? Undoubtedly, yes. Was he one of the all-time greats of the decade? Hell no, regardless of what Cycling Quotient says. To take it further, say PdC set up a Cycling Hall of Fame (Yes, that's a hint.) Would Tin Tin qualify? I'd vote no. He'd be in the Hall of the Very Good, not the Hall of the Great. In the long run, how will we remember Tin Tin? As the guy who did the Ardennes Treble. And as more time passes by that's about all that he will be remembered for outside of obsessive cycling fans. 

So if Rebellin does not justify his lofty status on CQ as the 2nd best rider of the decade, then might there be a better way to measure greatness? I think so. The key, I think, is to develop a system that separates the wheat from the chaff and as CQ measures everything, much chaff winds up with the true quality results. In the end, CQ measures production, not quality, sort of like RBI's in baseball. We need a better measure of quality.

One very simple measure of quality is wins. Ultimately wins are what are remembered; the other podium places are forgotten. As GHH says, second place is first loser. It's just normal to be able to recall more the winners of, say the Tour or the Worlds RR, than those who finished second or third. And for poste rity's sake, a tenth place finish is only remembered in the agate type of archival websites. No, it's wins that count so why not just count wins when looking at history? 

Okay, we can do that; we can count wins. But it's not that simple because, regardless of what Team Columbia says, all wins are not created equal.  Winning a stage in the ToC is nothing compared to winning a stage at the TdF. Winning the Ronde van het Groene Hart is nothing compared to winning the Ronde van Vlaanderen.  So we need a weighting system. Better yet, the weighting system would do well to completely ignore many low level races as no great cycling career is measured in Green Hearts and other small races. Just because there's a race doesn't mean that we have to include it into a weighting system. 

We just want Quality Races and Wins when talking about posterity. Of course we still have to do some weighting because even getting rid of the B and C races we still have races that have more impact, but that's doable. So once we have our set of races we can better compare not only the best riders of the decade but also riders from different decades. We're all set...

Actually we are even more set than just having  a theoretical framework because there already is such a framework in place over at the Virtual Musette website, made by our very own The Team Chef. Over there you see that he has ranked the top 50 riders of all time and most recently included an update that includes this year. From there it's not hard to tease out the top 20 cyclists of the Aughts according to his system. (The system is explained in two parts, Part 1, and Part 2.) For the purposes of this post, I am not including any of the lifetime achievement awards as I just want to see clearly what riders did in this decade only. (I will note any lifetime achievement awards under each rider.) 

So onto the rankings! Like with the Cycling Quotient rankings, I'll have a little blurb for the top riders and a table at the end for all 20. I'll also include the lifetime VM rankings for the riders, to give us a perspective on where the Aughts stand in history.  One thing that might come up in the comments is why these races and why these weights to the races? I'm sure 

But before going further, who do you think will be at the top of these rankings?

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

1. Lance Armstrong- 66 points. 10th best rider all-time with 116.5 points. Ranked 7th for the decade by CQ.

Is this a surprise? Should anyone else be ranked first for the Aughts? Hell no.  Lance took the biggest race of the cycling calendar and made it his bitch for seven straight years, six of which are in the Aughts. No other rider comes close to that type of domination in any other race. Oh-and he won two Dauphine's this decade as well.  What you have here is a ruthlessly efficient rider who designed his career post-cancer to make as big an impact as possible-and he succeeded. We all know this but it bears repeating. 

As for his all-time status, this year's Tour gave him the extra boost he needed to move into sole possession of 10th place. 

 

2. Paolo Bettini-45 points. Currently 37th all-time with 55 points. Ranked #4 by CQ.

It says here that The Little Cricket's combination of climbing and sprinting ability makes him the best hilly classic rider of the decade. During the decade he won LBL twice, the Worlds twice, Lombardia twice, the Giro points competition twice, the Italian RR twice, and the UCI World Cup year long competition twice-including the year that Tin Tin did his Treble thingy. He also won seven Grand Tour stages, MSR, T-A, San Seb, and the Olympics in 04. If that palmares ain't quality I don't know what is.

 

3. Alejandro Valverde-40.5 points. 51st all-time with 40.5 points. Ranked #3 by CQ for the decade

There's an interesting contrast between CQ and VM here:

06-10.5 VM points; 2469 CQ points

07-0 VM points; 1897 CQ points

08-12 VM points; 2657 CQ points

09-10 VM points; 2487 CQ points.

Those 0 VM points in 07 stand out but when you look at his record you see that he didn't win anything of much consequence with the Tour of Murcia his biggest win. VM doesn't count Murcia. But other than that 2007 hiccup, Valverde has been the 2nd most productive rider since 07. 10 guesses as to who is the most productive and your first nine don't count.

 

4 (tie). Alberto Contador-40 points. 52 if you include the 12 for winning all three GT's this decade. Currently 35th all-time with 52 points. Ranked #18 by CQ.

Basically this guy is the Next Great Rider after the declines of Armstrong, Zabel and Bettini (who he will pass this year). This is just from three years worth of results, mind you. He earned 11 1/2 points in 07, 26 in 08 (12 of which are the winning each GT award), and 14 1/2 this year so his points per year rate is 13 1/2 or thereabouts. Can he keep that up? He's 27, why not? Projecting ahead, another 14 points in 2010 would get him into the top 25 of all-time, passing the likes of Bettini, Cipo, and Lemond. If he keeps that rate up for five years, he passes Armstrong. He'd be only 33 at that point and his final ranking would be limited only to his desire. So the question I put to you all: who among the current riders can hope to join Armstrong, and probably Contador to claim a top 25 place all-time? To get an idea of what kind of a career it would take to make the top 25, Greg Lemond is currently in 25th place with 65 points. Some figures to look at:

Andy Schleck has 11 points so far.

Mark Cavendish has 13.

Valverde's got 40.5 and will be 30 years old this April.

Boonen's got 42 and he'll be 30 next October.

Cancellara has 26, Cunego has 27, and both will be 29 next year.

Boss Hog has 5 points and won't be 23 until May.

Who do you project to score at least 65 points?

 

 

4. (tie) Tom Boonen-40 points. All-time 40 points, good for 48th place. Ranked 5th by CQ.

Tornado Tom has the single best year according to these rankings with 15 points earned in his heavenly 2005 season. (Bert has the next two best years of 14.5 this year and 14 in 08 which shows you the level at which Bert is operating these days. And I am not including his 12 point Grand Tour bonus again).

It's interesting to compare the CQ and VM ratings for 2005 and 06:

2005- CQ rating of 2073 points, #1 for the year. VM rating of 15 points, also the best of the year.

2006- CQ rating of 2559 points, #1 for the year and I think the best single year of the decade the second best year of the decade behind Valverde's 2008.  VM gives him just 4 points which he has exceeded every year since even though his CQ ratings slipped down 1000+ points starting in 07.

So what's happening here? It seems like that since 06, Boonen has basically taken Lance Armstrong's approach and been more selective in his racing program in order to win the big races more consistently. Below is his VM record since his first year in earning points in 04:

04-4 points: Gent Wevelgem, E3, two stages at the Tour

05-15 points: E3, Flanders, P-R, Tour of Belgium, Worlds RR, and two stages at the Tour

06-4 points: E3 and Flanders

07-6 points: KBK, DdV, E3, Points race at the Tour along with two stages

08-5 points: P-R, and 2 stages at the Vuelta

09-6 points: KBK, P-R, and his National Championship

 

6. Erik Zabel-35.5 points. Ranked 21st all-time with 81 points. Ranked #1 by CQ.

So 51.5 of his points were in the 90's. Wonder if that puts him at the top of that decade? Chef? 

You can see his decline by his year-to-year achievements:

00-9.5 points with wins at MSR, Amstel, Green Jersey, Road World Cup, and a stage at the Tour.

01-8 points with his last win at MSR, his last Green Jersey, three Tour stages, and three Vuelta stages

02-4.5 points with a 2nd place att he Worlds, one Tour stage win, and the Vuelta points race

03-6 points with a Paris-Tours win, the Vuelta Points race plus two stages there, and a win in his National Championship RR.

04-2 points from winning the Vuelta points race

05-2 points from another Paris-Tours win.

06-3 points from another 2nd place at the Worlds and two Vuelta stage wins.

07-1/2 point from one Veueta stage win.

08-0 points and he retires.

 

7. Alessandro Petacchi-32 points. 43 points all-time which is good for 46th place. Ranked #8 by CQ.

 I'm tempted to ignore most of cycling history by calling Ale-Jet the beta edition of Mark Cavendish. 

 

And for the rest of the top 24, see the chart below:

 

Rider NameVM Points
1. Lance Armstrong 66
2. Paolo Bettini 45
3. Alejandro Valverde 40.5
4.(tie) Alberto Contador 40
4.(tie) Tom Boonen 40
6. Erik Zabel 35.5
7. Alessandro Petacchi 32
8. Oscar Freire 31.5
9. (tie) Robbie McEwen 28.5
9. (tie) Gilberto Simoni 28.5
11.Danilo DiLuca 27.5
12.Damiano Cunego 27
13.(tie) Jan Ullrich 26
13.(tie) Fabian Cancellara 26
15. Denis Menchov 24.5
16. Roberto Heras 23.5
17. Alexander Vinokourov 22.5
18. Carlos Sastre 22
19. Davide Rebellin 21
20. Cadel Evans 20.5
21. Mario Cipollini 19
22. Ivan Basso 18
23. (tie) Thor Hushovd 17
23. (tie) Stefano Garzelli 17

Comment 68 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

+1

fantastic

Always learn a lot here as I must admit that my pro cycling race watching history is very Tour-centric … only recently more divesrified thanks to PdC.

Moo

by Willj on Dec 29, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

That was godd morning reading, thanks.

I think your rankings are more accurate.

But if the point is to reflect what will actually be remembered, I like counting podium places for the major classics and top-5 overall for the Tour. Top-3 probably for the Giro. Twenty years from now, Michael Boogerd and Leif Hoste will be remembered in the classics more than Igor Astarloa, who won more. As they should be.

Maybe there should be a way to penalize Roberto Heras for getting all his points in the Vuelta against the likes of Aitor Gonzalez, Isidro Nozal, and Manuel Beltran? Heras never, ever beat anyone good.

by Mr 60 Percent on Dec 29, 2009 8:35 AM EST reply actions  

Boogerd, \o/, Astarloa... Rebellin

Overall I think you are right about those guys. But in the long run, say 40 years and further, none of those guys will mention much more than a footnote as none of them won nearly enough to make an impression. I think that things like a cranky personality (Hoste) or big shiny teeth( Boogerd) gradually fall away from the public’s awareness as time goes on until the main thing speaking for them is their Record and they just didn’t win. I’m shocked in fact by how little Boogie won. I don;t mean to say that Astarloa is any better off- I already have only an extremely hazy memories of him.

Ultimately those riders are like but less than Tin Tin, who outside of his Ardennes Treble did not win so much either. He’ll be remembered for his fluky year and not much else.

by ursula on Dec 29, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Zabel in the 90s

First off, another excellent post Ursula. I thought I’d sliced and diced my rankings every way possible, but you have managed to come up with some new food for thought.

Indurain, Jalabert, and Rominger scored almost all of their points points in the 90s (roughly 88, 78, and 75, respectively), so they would have certainly finished head of the pack in a 90s only ranking. In fact, these guys would have blown away anyone in the Aughts, Armstrong included. I’m pretty sure Zabel would have come in 4th, as he earned about 6 more points than Museeuw.

It’s Ete’s amazing longevity (he turned pro in ’92), combined with his ability to stay very competitive far longer than most in his sport, that allowed him to rack up enough points to crack the Top 25 all time list. He is the only rider in the 90s or Aughts to have captured over 200 wins on the road.

by The Team Chef on Dec 29, 2009 10:48 AM EST reply actions  

To the remotely educated

This is yet another reason why Armstrong is not, and should not be considered the best cyclist ever, not by a long shot

Indurain, Jalabert, and Rominger scored almost all of their points points in the 90s (roughly 88, 78, and 75, respectively), so they would have certainly finished head of the pack in a 90s only ranking. In fact, these guys would have blown away anyone in the Aughts, Armstrong included

.

No disrespect intended to any of the three above, but they do help put things into perspective…

"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi

by muk on Dec 29, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Whee, that was a fun read

I like the graduated weights of races more. I’d like to see how races are weighted but this all makes a lot more sense than the CQ system. Thanks for the work!

by Douglas Ansel on Dec 29, 2009 12:30 PM EST reply actions  

Thankfully you are such a mega nerd Ursula

or else we would not have such rich posts. I’d say EBH can get to 65 if he is who we all think he is, but how exactly are classics wins scored compared to GT? Cause that’s where he will be making his living in the next decade.

March 14, 2010: The great one returns!

by Phil H. on Dec 29, 2009 1:44 PM EST reply actions  

EBH

Yeah I think we are all wondering what he will do. So scoring wise:

- Monument wins give three points each with P-R giving 4.
-The Worlds RR gives 4 for the win, 2 for 2nd, and 1 for 3rd. Worlds TT gives 2 points. Olympics gives 2 for both RR and TT.
- The biggest classics give 2 points. G-W, Amstel, FW, San Seb, P-T
- Semi-classics give 1 point: Het NB, KBK, DdV, Brabantse Pijl, E3, Scheldeprijs, Plouay, Paris-Brussels, Milan-Turin, Lazio, Emilia, Piemonte, Toscana, Romanga, Placci, Tre Valle Varesine, Veneto, Heninger-Turn.and national championships RR only (no TT).
Note: I see now that I scored a couple of these wrong so some of the riders’ points totals above are off by a point or two.

EBH will also earn point sin smaller stage races-he already has in fact, at Eneco this year. 2 points. The bigger small stage races are worth 3 points and the smaller, 2 points.

So Phil… what do you think of this assortment of races being the scoring races? (A leading question there.)

by ursula on Dec 29, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Scoring and single day races

All Monuments (except PR) – 3
PR – 4
World Champ RR – 4
Classics – 2
Semi-Classics and Nat. Champs – 1
Tour – 8
Giro – 6
Vuelta – 4
GT classification (Points, Mountain) – 2
GT stages – .5
Minor Tours – 2 or 3
Also some podium points for WC and GTs.

That is the Readers Digest version. The complete point totals can be found here.

One day specialists can rack up huge point totals and make the Top 25. The following made the Top 25 without a GT victory: Rik Van Looy #6, Roger de Vlaeminck #8, Erik Zabel #21, Rik Van Steenbergen #22. The trick is to be prolific and/or rack up points with stage wins and Classification Jerseys.

We could also argue that Sean Kelly #7, Francisco Moser #9, Freddy Maertens #14, Laurent Jalabert #18, and Guiseppe Saronni #20 were also one day specialists, but it just so happened the stars lined up just right allowing for each to claim one GT victory.

If Boss Hog is the real deal, then lack of GT podiums should in no way inhibit his march to the Top 25. If he starts narrowing his focus to a handful races each year, then it going to be real tough for him (or anyone for that matter) to get to 65 points.

by The Team Chef on Dec 29, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

seems to me

that non-GT stage races like Paris-Nice and the Dauphine should weigh more heavily than say the Tour of Georgia, given the history and prestige of those events. Also, the VM ranking system sounds fine until the results are evaluated. Gilberto Simoni has no business being in the top 10, nor should Cunego be top 12. Simoni insired me little more than once (Zoncolan comes to mind), and Cunego had a spectacular, upset Giro win (but should be slightly discounted by the fact that for most of the race he was NOT addressed by direct strategizing, Simoni was the distraction – this was evident once he was a marked man in the Giros to follow) and a few seasons barely salvaged by squeaking out wins in Lombardy. His other successes are barely memorable, even L-B-L. Furthermmore, Tyler Hamilton had nearly as much success, and didn’t even make the list. Mario Cipolini 21st?? Oh come on, few riders energized the sport consistently with spectacular wins like Cipo, yet Cadel Evans (yawn) bests him Carlos Sastre even?? One day of feeling great in the Alps does not a legend create..

"He looked pretty good until he went over the side of that cliff." PdC's own thevaro, on why he's betting on Oscar Periero's "BIG COMEBACK" in 2010

by Koppenberg34 on Dec 29, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

My 2 pennies.

First off, Ursula is attempting to rank the best riders of the decade based on their results during the decade.

The Tour de Georgia is not even an included race in the ranking system, so I’m not sure why you’ve even mentioned it. Yes, both the Dauphine and Paris-Nice receive more weighting than some of the other Minor Stage races. Again, here is the link to the included events, and their point totals.

I’d beg to disagree, but results are results. The scoring system does not include a subjective evaluation of the points earned. Points earned are points earned. That was one of the reasons I created the system in the first place – remove emotions from the discussion. In my book, Gibo has every right to be included in the top dozen or so riders for the decade. Six GT podiums, two of them outright victories, earned him his spot. Cunego belongs, as well. How many current riders can claim three Monument victories and a GT as part of their palmares?

Cipo is #26 on the all time list – one of the all time greats. Evans, Gibo, and Sastre won’t even crack the Top 50, so I am certainly not saying than any of them were “better than” Super Mario. I don’t want to speak for Ursula, but I’m pretty sure neither of us are placing Sastre or Evans in the “legendary” camp. The point here is that these guys scored more points than Cipo in the last decade; the majority of Mario’s points were scored in the 90s, thus many are ranked higher. Cunego still has plenty of years left to catch up with Cipo…

by The Team Chef on Dec 29, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

This is the key
Points earned are points earned. That was one of the reasons I created the system in the first place – remove emotions from the discussion.

This is why I love your system and am fascinated by the work you and Ursula do. So often, our emotions get in the way of the truth and our value of certain riders are swayed by our attitudes and not based on realities. As a fan, it is a beautiful thing. But looking at numbers like the system you created is the perfect complement to “fan-based” rankings on the best riders of a decade.

Team Chef and Ursula are doing some unbelievable work to complement my standard fan-based reactions to cycling, and has only enhanced why i love the sport.

by PopUp Rolen on Dec 29, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

But why I love sport is because it's about feeling.. Not numbers...

That you can discuss about who’s better than who based on feeling and emotion. That you are dreged away with that is only an asset.. So that there is no true..
I will say that another time more clearly

by Frinking on Dec 29, 2009 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Easy tiger....part

of my comment was to INQUIRE to the criteria, so to better understand your concept. Somehow I DID in fact miss the link of the included the actual list of events, the only mention I refered to was the one in the comment that preceded my original reply (in it, you address all non-GT tours as “other minor tours”).
  As for Cipo, I stand corrected on the issue of when he scored the bulk of his points, and overlookeding the fact that the system applies solely to the aughts – again, an oversight on my part.
  Lastly, I can’t help but find it interesting that, although perhaps subconciously, even YOU can be quoted saying “In my book, Gibo has every right to be included in the top dozen or so riders for the decade”. I probably wouln’t even have mentioned him originally if you’d have placed him 12th, but 9th is a bit harder to swallow. In your defense, as you pointed out, this is an emotionless evaluation, and I respect cold science. The word “conscience” can be divided into “con” and “science” or specifically, “without science”. Therefore, a persons conscience is governed by emotion rather than cold math. With this I must say however, that reading what your conscience inadvertantly typed ( “top dozen or so”) gives me some comfort knowing that I’m not the only one who feels deep down that the 9th place that your equation awarded him with elevates him beyond the scope of what our consciences feel he achieved.

"He looked pretty good until he went over the side of that cliff." PdC's own thevaro, on why he's betting on Oscar Periero's "BIG COMEBACK" in 2010

by Koppenberg34 on Dec 29, 2009 9:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Good points

I think though if one steps back from these decade point totals and looks at the career top 50 here, one can get the sense that winning say 20 points in this system identifies a good but not great rider. That and the fact that this list I made is an arbitrary length of time (the Aughts) so it does not capture the careers of most riders so well. A couple of examples:

- Cipo has a career mark of 65.5 points, so what we are seeing of him in the Aughts-those 19 points-is just the tail end of a fantastic career, currently ranked 26th best all-time by this system. So looking at his entire career he just dominates the likes of Cadel or Sastre, two riders on this list will be extremely lucky if they get half of Cipo’s career totals. Cipo is a Hall of Famer; Cadel and Carlos are not. So what the all-Aughts list is a big all-star list, but not a Hall of Fame list.

- So thinking about Sastre and Evans more my guess is that there are quite a few riders at any given time who we would think of as one of the better riders of their era but who will top out on this grading system somewhere in the realm of 10-30 points for their career. An analogy might be in any sport that has an all-star game. Those all-stars probably earned their right to be thought of as among the best of that year, and they may get all-star status for a few more years but the huge majority of those all-stars would/will never make it into their sports Hall of Fame because the sum totals in their careers just don’t add up.

The actual Hall of famers on the list are only a few: Armstrong, Zabel, Bettini, (probably) Contador, Cipollini, and maybe Valverde if he doesn’t get busted in a month. That’s 5 or 6 riders in the whole decade that had a decent chunk of their careers in the decade. (Note there might be a couple other eventual Hall of famers in our midst right now but they are too early in their careers to say definitively one way or another: Cavendish, EBH, Nibali, etc. Cipo fits in this category if we were doing a best of the 80’s as he won a Giro stage in 89.) Beyond them there are probably oh, 20-40 other riders who would have earned all-star status in one or more years. Guys like Sastre and Evans. Rebellin and Savoldelli, Leipheimer and Basso. Menchov and Garzelli and McEwen and Boogerd, etc. Hey- that would be interesting-a year by year nine-man all-star list for each year! Time to get to work!

by ursula on Dec 29, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

True about Boonen

I wonder though where will he end up as he seems to be at a crossroads. At the moment I’m not sure what he is motivated to do and it’s the next 4-5 years that will establish his place for all time. The sprints seem no longer interesting. Will he develop into a top chronoman? Could he start to take on a few of the hilly classics? He’s a Hall of Famer now but does he have what it takes to move into a top 25 position by the VM measurement (i.e. can he add another 25 VM points)?

Right now I say no. He just doesn’t seem to have the drive to do any of the spectacular lifetime achievements like Zabel’s 200+ wins or winning all 5 Monuments or the like.

by ursula on Dec 30, 2009 7:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Hmm unless he loses a bit of weight so he can climb better but it is going to take a lot...

I can see him winning another worlds and another Roubaix but outside of that he is really going to have to buckle down or expand his horizons

by Vlaanderen90 on Dec 30, 2009 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks

well spoken, founded, and grounded….and I agree with you (except for Boogard – as a fan, I liked him a lot. But to remove emotion from this excercise, as we’ve been instructed, he really doesn’t fit the description of “best” of anything other than perhaps “best at nealry winning races”.

"He looked pretty good until he went over the side of that cliff." PdC's own thevaro, on why he's betting on Oscar Periero's "BIG COMEBACK" in 2010

by Koppenberg34 on Dec 29, 2009 10:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Boogie

I loved him too. While he isn’t one of the all-time greats, he and riders like him make cycling compelling. (Or is one of the reasons.)

by ursula on Dec 30, 2009 7:15 AM EST up reply actions  

totally.

"He looked pretty good until he went over the side of that cliff." PdC's own thevaro, on why he's betting on Oscar Periero's "BIG COMEBACK" in 2010

by Koppenberg34 on Dec 30, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Skip down to the comment titled "Thanks"

its a reply to ursula’s “good points” comment. Damn “reply” feature got the better of me again.

"He looked pretty good until he went over the side of that cliff." PdC's own thevaro, on why he's betting on Oscar Periero's "BIG COMEBACK" in 2010

by Koppenberg34 on Dec 29, 2009 10:04 PM EST up reply actions  

as we say in the U.S. Navy, please "belay my last"

"He looked pretty good until he went over the side of that cliff." PdC's own thevaro, on why he's betting on Oscar Periero's "BIG COMEBACK" in 2010

by Koppenberg34 on Dec 29, 2009 10:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I like the scoring system except for one thing

why is the Vuelta 2 points less than the Giro? I’ve always grouped them in the same class beneath the Tour. Sure you could say many riders go to the Vuelta to train for the worlds but most GC riders are there for winning, and the Giro startlists haven’t been that much more impressive.

March 14, 2010: The great one returns!

by Phil H. on Dec 29, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Tough call,

but ultimately I decided that the Giro is historically far more important than the Vuelta. Part of my reasoning was that the race wasn’t a regular fixture on the calendar until ‘55. It also used to be a 2 week race, and it also had a major switch from spring to late summer in the 90s. I know in recent years the race has gained importance, but I didn’t want to penalize guys like Bartoli, Coppi, Bobet, Kubler, Magni, and Koblet; most of them never had a chance to do the Vuelta.

by The Team Chef on Dec 29, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Understandable

but if you change the system now, those who raced when the Giro was more important will not be punished(because the Vuelta winners of those days will receive 4) and at the same time those who win it now will also not be punished(seeing the Vuelta is just as tough to win these days). So what I’m proposing is leaving those riders who won the Vuelta in its early days with 4 points but giving those that have won it since it has become the 3rd “grand” tour and those who will win it from now on 6 points, or at least 5.

March 14, 2010: The great one returns!

by Phil H. on Dec 29, 2009 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmm, interesting idea, but the problem

still remains – there wasn’t a Vuelta run in the first half of the 50’s, so regardless of the point totals assigned, those guys mentioned above never had the chance to participate while in their prime.

It’s also worth noting that some of my special adjustments (point bonuses)include the overall number of GT victories (15 point bonus for winning 8+ GTs) and a 12 point bonus for winning all three GTs. It’s entirely possible that either Bartoli or Coppi could have won some Vueltas, and both could have amassed enough points to overhaul Hinault.

I’m open to assigning 5/6 points once the Vuelta became a traditional GT, but I fear I would be tearing a hole in the universe (well, at least mine). I’ll give it some thought, run some numbers, and see what happens. In the grand scheme of things, I’m not sure it will make a whole lot of difference, other than Rominger moving ahead of Zoetemelk.

by The Team Chef on Dec 29, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

but I fear I would be tearing a hole in the universe

It’s far easier to trust stats when they analysed with true passion ;)

Moo

by Willj on Dec 29, 2009 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough

and historically speaking it probably may not make a difference but maybe in 10 years when we look back at this upcoming decade it could be a big one, especially if Bert does a few of them. But if not I still really like your scoring system.

March 14, 2010: The great one returns!

by Phil H. on Dec 29, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

There is a prescedent in changing point values

Paris-Brussels pre-67 is 2 points, 67 and later, 1 point.

by ursula on Dec 29, 2009 8:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay, I'm sold.

I’ll change the point totals. I’m going to have to do a bit of research to find out exactly how I’m going to do this.

So, question to the group: How many points should the modern Vuelta be worth? Same as the Giro, or less?

by The Team Chef on Dec 29, 2009 9:02 PM EST up reply actions  

less because its a bore.

"He looked pretty good until he went over the side of that cliff." PdC's own thevaro, on why he's betting on Oscar Periero's "BIG COMEBACK" in 2010

by Koppenberg34 on Dec 29, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd say same

I believe when it comes to winning it, it’s now just as big and difficult to win. Sure it’s not as beautiful and there are more transition stages making it less interesting than the Giro(to respond to K34) but that shouldn’t be part of the equation. It’s importance should, and although to me the Giro will always be better to watch I see the Vuelta being taken just as seriously by GC riders.

March 14, 2010: The great one returns!

by Phil H. on Dec 29, 2009 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

you are absolutely correct of course...

its just that Spain in general doesn’t inspire me the way Italy does. Watching the Vuelta for me always comes down to a couple of exciting, extreme mountain stages, and the rest of it just looks like arid, featureless countryside, generally void of fans (which = little interest from their own public) that could easily pass for a boring stretch of I-15 somewhere between LA and Vegas. The Giro would never do me like that. Even the boring stages of the Giro are an absolute joy to just observe the countryside (that’s a big reason why I LOVE watching the Tour of Romandie! Talk about beautiful!) and the culture (notice I didn’t have to say “sub” as in “cycling sub-culture”) which is richly absorbed into every mile.

"He looked pretty good until he went over the side of that cliff." PdC's own thevaro, on why he's betting on Oscar Periero's "BIG COMEBACK" in 2010

by Koppenberg34 on Dec 30, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

I absolutely agree

the Giro will always be my favorite race(yes even ahead of the Tour) because of the beauty of the race. If there was a scoring system that ranked most beautiful races the Giro must be number 1.

March 14, 2010: The great one returns!

by Phil H. on Dec 30, 2009 12:55 AM EST up reply actions  

ditto that, even ahead of the tour.

As big as the Giro is, it still manages to feel “quaint” and charming. I go through worse withdrawls when its over than I do the TdF. It enriches my May, and when its over I feel an emotional void for a few….who am I kidding, more than a few..days. The TdF used to make me feel that way, and I still love it of course, but it’s such an over the top “mega” production that it kills a bit of the intimacy and beauty.

"He looked pretty good until he went over the side of that cliff." PdC's own thevaro, on why he's betting on Oscar Periero's "BIG COMEBACK" in 2010

by Koppenberg34 on Dec 30, 2009 3:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Giro is my favorite GT, as well.

You’ve touched on many of the reasons I’ve found it so difficult to put the Vuelta on par with the Giro. Boring transition stages really take the sauce out of the Spanish race, and I find myself reading recaps of the stages, rather than watching them.

by The Team Chef on Dec 30, 2009 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm beginning to sense some warmth being pryed from your

cold, metal, calculator. There may be some hope for you yet.

"He looked pretty good until he went over the side of that cliff." PdC's own thevaro, on why he's betting on Oscar Periero's "BIG COMEBACK" in 2010

by Koppenberg34 on Dec 30, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

As further proof

of my emotional side, you might like to know that despite what my own rankings might say, I feel that Bartali is the best rider of the Modern Era (after Merckx, of course).

by The Team Chef on Dec 30, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Dutch cycling historian and writer of cycling books Benjo Maso agrees.

by tedvdw on Dec 30, 2009 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Both of his books look to be great reads.

It looks like Sweat of the Gods has been translated, but it doesn’t appear like We Were All Gods…Tour of ‘48 is available in English. I hope I’m wrong, because I can’t wait to get my hands on both of them.

I hadn’t heard of either until you mentioned the author’s name above.

That’s what I love about this place. Thanks for the information.

by The Team Chef on Dec 30, 2009 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Only the one is in English, yes.

by tedvdw on Dec 30, 2009 5:52 PM EST up reply actions  

It says so much

of your perspective into cycling that you describe Bartali as of the modern era!

I love it!

For my money Coppi just edges Bartali, but THAT is a whole different discussion….

"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi

by muk on Dec 30, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

He's definitely got the title of

“best of all time” contestant with the most exciting life. I might agree with you, but Coppi made him look bad too often, and he was so envious of Fauso that he acted like a jealous girlfriend. My vote goes for the Badger, he had it all, to the (nth + 1) power.

"He looked pretty good until he went over the side of that cliff." PdC's own thevaro, on why he's betting on Oscar Periero's "BIG COMEBACK" in 2010

by Koppenberg34 on Dec 30, 2009 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I can't resist, so I'll bite.

Gino vs. Coppi deserves a post all its own.

What it boils down to, at least for me, is this: Gino lost his peak years to the war. By the time Gino and Coppi finally squared off in the Tour (’49), Fausto was in his prime, and Bartali was winding down.

I’ve written an entire series of articles examining these “missing years,” and their effect on the palmares of all the great champions of the period.

The most relevant to this discussion are Missing Years, Part 1
Missing Years, Part 2

In their prime, Bartali, Coppi, and Hinault would have all given Eddy a run for his money in a GT.

by The Team Chef on Dec 30, 2009 7:42 PM EST up reply actions  

fair and modest.

I don’t know about giving Eddy a run for his money, but I agree with the rest. In the meantime, I’m going to check into the links you provided. Thanks.

"He looked pretty good until he went over the side of that cliff." PdC's own thevaro, on why he's betting on Oscar Periero's "BIG COMEBACK" in 2010

by Koppenberg34 on Dec 30, 2009 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree with you

The Gino V’s Coppi debate is not something that should be tackled via a post, but rather over a couple of cold beers at the end of a long ride :-)

For my 2 cents, they are both demi-gods of cycling and you can not call yourself a true cycling fan until you know of them and their deeds; and you could do a lot worse than starting at www.thevirtualmusette.com to learn of these.

"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi

by muk on Dec 31, 2009 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

After taking a closer look

at every Vuelta in the Modern Era, I’m going to change the points to the following:

Pre 1986
1st – 5 points
2nd – 2.5 points
3rd – 1 point

’86 to present (same as the Giro)
1st – 6 points
2nd – 3 points
3rd – 1 point

Why the change in ’86? That year was the first since the race was held on a regular basis (1955) to have included more than 20 stages. The finishing times of the winners after that point also more closely mirrored those of the Giro. The Vuelta became a true GT in the mid 80s.

It’s going to be a nightmare going back and adjusting the totals, so it may take me a few days (weeks?) to get it done, but I’ll make sure I let you all know once I’ve crunched the numbers.

This is far from a done deal, so I’m open to suggestions.

by The Team Chef on Dec 30, 2009 2:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Menchov thought Giro win more important

He called it the biggest of his career over the Vuelta. I think the points were correct the way they were personally. In the future the Giro is going to get smashed badly unless they do something like encourage US viewers. I think California will hurt them unless something happens.

by Markk on Dec 30, 2009 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

I know! Hold the race in the U.S. instead, then just finish it in Italy....

yeah, we could start it in, oh, I don’t know, how about our CAPITOL!! DC baby!!

"He looked pretty good until he went over the side of that cliff." PdC's own thevaro, on why he's betting on Oscar Periero's "BIG COMEBACK" in 2010

by Koppenberg34 on Dec 30, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

+100

"He looked pretty good until he went over the side of that cliff." PdC's own thevaro, on why he's betting on Oscar Periero's "BIG COMEBACK" in 2010

by Koppenberg34 on Dec 29, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Decade by decade, the Aughts were the weakest in the postwar era.

I was saving this for later, but now might be a good time to throw this out.

The past decade witnessed the fewest number of inductees into the Top 25 (only Armstrong and Zabel). Zabel was nearly included in the 90’s, but he did score slightly more of his points the Aughts.

The 50’s – Coppi*, Bartali*, Bobet, Kubler, Magni, Van Steenbergen
The 60’s – Anquetil, Van Looy, Gimondi, Poulidor, Janssen
The 70’s – Merckx, De Vlaeminck, Moser, Maertens, Zoetemelk
The 80’s – Hinault, Kelly, Saronni, LeMond
The 90’s – Indurain, Rominger, Jalabert
The Aughts – Armstrong, Zabel

*Actually earned enough points in the 40’s

The decade of inclusion was based on the period in which the cyclist had accumulated the majority of their points.

Technically, the winning decade is the 70’s, but my heart still says the 50’s was the greatest period in cycling. I’ll take another look at this in the near future by including the Top 50, not just the Top 25.

by The Team Chef on Dec 29, 2009 5:00 PM EST reply actions  

This is fairly meaningless though

It could be read the that the 00’s were the most competitive decade ever and the 50’s and 70’s had only a couple of good guys. I happen not to think that, but I do believe that the talent of the current peloton is likely close to the best ever. I believe this simply because the population that the riders are drawn from is much larger. There will be more outliers at the top end naturally.

by Markk on Dec 29, 2009 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

and reading a little about it

the pre war period 1900 through the 30’s may have been the least competitive due to the control by the manufacturers of the few top riders …. while most others couldn’t ride full time professionally

(but I may be well off base ;) )

Moo

by Willj on Dec 29, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I have a different take on this.

Specialization, doping, and large squads of 20+ riders, all had a part to play in the dearth of big point scorers in the last decade. It’s a topic I plan on exploring in greater detail over at my site.

by The Team Chef on Dec 29, 2009 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

It would be interesting to see the top single seasons

What is the record haul in one season? I’m writing uop a post on the best Aughts seasons, partly based on VM but not entirely but I wonder if in decades earlier there were riders who often surpassed Boonen’s 15 points in 2005. (Again not counting bonuses.) To me that would indicate either competitive balance so several riders keep anyone from getting too many points, specialization/large squads (a both parts of the same thing), or no great riders.

 I am inclined not to believe the no great riders theory as I see nothing to back up the claim that the Old Greats were better. I can imagine specialization/big squads playing a part along with competitive balance. I don’t think doping was a big enough factor (a small one perhaps) because so many guys in the last couple of decades doped (and doped way before then too.)

by ursula on Dec 29, 2009 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

i would think specialization has a lot to do with it.

Also I just finished reading L Fignon’s book about his racing career and he thinks that epo made things less selective. A not-great rider could win stuff on epo that he normally could not have won. And doesn’t matter if the true greats were also on it. He saw it as an equalizer. Secondly he thinks that the reduced length and difficulty of so many of the races and stages in recent years has also led to “reduced selection” – again the shorter course equalizes things. With equalizers we get more equally distributed results. Certainly in his own case, he felt the longer a course, the better his chance – which is why he liked and did well at msr.

by yeehoo on Dec 30, 2009 4:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Shorter courses sounds like a factor

I definitely agree with that. I’m still not sold on epo as a major reason, but definitely it’s a strong minor reason (if that makes any sense) though but hey we can disagree. At any rate things have changed so that the monster 20+ seasons just don’t happen any more-and won’t until circumstances change again.

by ursula on Dec 30, 2009 7:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Hypothetical monster season

What if Contador actually won all his stage races next year?

Paris-Nice – 3
Volta – 3
Basque Country – 3
Tour – 8
Vuelta – 4 (6 under revised scoring)

That’s a 20+ season (not including any stage wins).

He’ll also do the Dauphine, but I don’t think he’ll be there to win, like all the others listed. I know he hasn’t confirmed the Vuelta, but I’m just playing devil’s advocate here.

Outside of Alberto, I just can’t see who would be capable of 20+ points.

by The Team Chef on Dec 30, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

The only guy that I can really think of that could crack 20 points would be Cavendish

but it would probably only happen once. I could see it happen but his schedule would be hectic.

San Remo-3 10 GT stages (in any combo of GT’s)-5
Gent Wevelgem-2 Paris-Tours-2
Scheldeprijs-1 Worlds RR-4
National Champs-1 1 GT points jersey-2

That is 20 points there. And if you wanted him to crack 20, you could say he wins the Olympic RR in ’12 while doing this but the Worlds in ’12 are in Limburg which is a bit too hilly for him

by Vlaanderen90 on Dec 30, 2009 11:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah but amphetamines is in no way EPO...

you cannot say that guys that were doping in Merckx era and before were anywhere near what was going on in the 90’s and beyond. If you put Merckx on EPO, it would have been utter domination.
Some numbers I added (math might be off)
Merckx’s ’71 season has 40 points by my math so that looks like a record or at least close.
Freddy Maertens ’77 season.I came up with 28.5 points. Also in ’76 he scored 26.5 points. And he never won a monument either.
De Vlaeminck never put up a super big season like Maertens but he was very consistent through his career

by Vlaanderen90 on Dec 30, 2009 7:01 AM EST up reply actions  

It's quite possible

that with the peloton (and merckx) on epo, that merckx would not have been able to dominate the way he did. No way to really know but i think Fignon’s theory that epo was an equalizer is probably correct.

by yeehoo on Dec 30, 2009 7:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Agree it could have cut Merckx

Other teams domestiques on the juice could keep up the pace and keep people closer than otherwise. I think there is where the epo era changed things. Look for the guys on the strongest teams – not the leader using perhaps … wait that could help the big teams too … thinking out loud like this, I’ll look forward to the analysis!

by Markk on Dec 30, 2009 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Every sprint, every cobble, every mountain pass from the world of Pro Cycling

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Unicorn_160_x_160_small
Marmottes Without Contract!

Recent FanPosts

Sorlin_small
Passo dello Stelvio - A Brief History
Small
The Pain I saw on Mt. Baldy (ToC)
Kelly_legs_small
Giro Stage Predictor: Stage 16
Happy_kid_small
Welcome back Jürgen! Roelandts 4th in comeback race
Kelly_legs_small
Giro Stage Predictor: Stage 15
Small
O/T: Tips on Cycling in and around Dijon, France
Kelly_legs_small
Giro Stage Predictor: Stage 14
Rec_rear_der-s_small
Techs-Mechs: Eye Candy
Kelly_legs_small
Giro Stage Predictor: Stage 13
Kelly_legs_small
Giro Stage Predictor: Stage 12

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Giro d'Italia Podium Cafe

Celebrate the Giro d'Italia at Podium Cafe!

Check our Giro Section for race updates, on-the-scene reports, and other hijinx.

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Oldest Race in the US.
Ooohhh - some toys are being thrown out of the pram!
Robbie McEwen Retires
World Record Breaking Paceline
o/t: I hope no insurance claim's involved
". . . but it's difficult to pick a favorite. They are still the same:...
Another winner with a tragic backstory
Kristin Armstrong finishing at the Tour of California TT 2012
Podium Insight: Kristin Armstrong and the Women's TT at ATOC
Look who was on the Col du Tourmalet today

+ New FanShot All FanShots >


Editors

Farrar_and_cafe_small Chris Fontecchio

Espresso_cup_small Jen See