Armstrong vs Contador

Is Armstrong a cancer within Astana?

Is Contador getting a raw deal?

Is Astana self-destructing?

Should Armstrong be arrested for assaulting the LiveClean Devil?

almost 3 years ago Bikezilla 31 comments 0 recs |

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Hmm.

No
Doubt it
No
Hell no (an award of some kind)

by sminer on Mar 21, 2009 4:53 PM EDT reply actions

i posted this link yesterday but now we have it straight from the author so mine is gone. as the guy from euro-peloton said, “bullseye”. as for pushing the devil into the snowbank, as i see it he was trying to get the hell out of the way and LA made it potentially worse. i’m not big on the over-use of the cancer metaphor and i don’t care enough about Astana, Lance, or Bruyneel to spend much time wondering about their prospects, but i do think Contador is coming out smelling the best so far…

You may very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment.

by nicknorco on Mar 21, 2009 5:45 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

Thank you

Nickel17

Actually, you’re how I found out about this site AND you really did me a favor in a couple of ways. Your link vanished sometime this morning, so I took the opportunity to repost and attempt to gather some feed back. So, thank you tons.

I actually do have a reason for going the way I did, but I’m not ready to go there, yet.

I at first thought Contador was being a whiney little girl and assumed honest good intentions from Lance and Johan. It’s become nearly impossible to maintain those beliefs and I’m currently quite doubtful of them.

I do believe the situation is toxic to Astana and to Contador. I’m dying to see Saxo Bank, who I see as currently the second strongest team behind Astana, acqurie Contador via contract buy out.

It would be good for Alberto and great for professional cycling over the next couple of years.

Learn more. Be better.

by Bikezilla on Mar 21, 2009 6:03 PM EDT reply actions

welcome!

glad i could facilitate, even if accidentally. i appreciate your commentary and effort to grapple with the issues from all sides. thanks again for the interesting read!

You may very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment.

by nicknorco on Mar 21, 2009 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions

doubtful conta would go to a riis-run team...

"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind

by umwolverine on Mar 22, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions

really?

by steph- on Mar 23, 2009 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions

think about it... how often has a riis-run team had just one protected rider in a grand tour (outside of basso in 2006)?

"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind

by umwolverine on Mar 23, 2009 6:41 AM EDT up reply actions

I agree with you Um

Did your favourite rider just win Montepaschi Strade Bianch Eroica Toscana? OK then.

by Jens on Mar 23, 2009 7:55 AM EDT up reply actions

I agree with you Um

Did your favourite rider just win Montepaschi Strade Bianch Eroica Toscana? OK then.

by Jens on Mar 23, 2009 7:55 AM EDT up reply actions

I agree with you umwolverine that it's not going to happen

I do believe though that when Riis has a GC guy he believes in 100% he will also commit the team 100%. It would have been the case with Basso in the 2006 Tour, the lineup there was all about Basso-support.

So while I don’t think this particular matchup will happen I believe it’s entirely posible we will see an “all for one” Saxo-team at some point.

Did your favourite rider just win Montepaschi Strade Bianch Eroica Toscana? OK then.

by Jens on Mar 23, 2009 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions

Jens!

Are you OK?

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris Fontecchio on Mar 23, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm staying at the Caaaaa, the Ca, the Caaaaaa, the Caaaaa

The Cathcart Towers Hotel

( I was going to hit Z to scroll to other posts but hit enter instead multiple times. the result is above.)

Did your favourite rider just win Montepaschi Strade Bianch Eroica Toscana? OK then.

by Jens on Mar 23, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions

sorry wolverine...but

…$$ talks and if a contract was offered he is no different than any other professional athlete. He has no issue with Riis or the Saxo Bank riders…and no allegiance to Astana soooo anything can happen.

I don’t believe it would happen….but more because Andy Schelck is the Tour GC rider for Saxo bank and less to do with Riis as the DS.

by steph- on Mar 23, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions

The Devil trying to get out of the way?

I certainly didn’t see it that way, just another idiot running on the road putting riders at risk. But I think Lance did the pushing because he took offence to how the Devil turned his slogan on him. I did however think, “oh that devil is going to come after him with a lawyer to get some money”. And true, the push could have back fired in another way if that fat dude had bounced off the embankment back into the riders.

by sminer on Mar 21, 2009 6:03 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

i hate when i type a response and then don't hit the post button

anyway, i said something like i think the peloton gained on that guy faster than he anticipated – he did get to the side although there was little room there. he posted here after the event and said he wanted to rattle Lance’s chain – seems he succeeded. the push was no doubt about the slogan and not about clearing the way for the group.

You may very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment.

by nicknorco on Mar 21, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions

I think the Devil was a wanker......

Just my thoughts.

We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing.
George Bernard Shaw, 1856-1950

by CycleGirl on Mar 22, 2009 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions

We talked about this during Paris Nice

Whatever happened in the race, wasn’t as important as the amount of blame coming out of Astana PR camp directed at Bert.

So far we’ve seen Gallopin saying it’s Bert’s fault(instead of his own), LA saying he needs to learn, JB saying he made mistakes and Yates saying “the general consensus is that Alberto by the way he rides compromises his chances sometimes”. not to mean that awful piece from Watson.
So yes, I think Bert is getting a raw deal.

as for the team, well, that’s the part I don’t understand. why push a 26 year old away for someone more than 10 years older?
even if the contract buyout doesn’t happen, can you expect him to renew? surely there will be others camping out on his front yard to offer a better working condition where you don’t have to worry about your own teammate and DS?

by rbjhan on Mar 22, 2009 7:39 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs

"Cancer"

I think in Lance’s case it would be in far better taste, or at least less distracting, if the author of that piece could just call him a destabilizing force. That’s what we really mean, right?

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris Fontecchio on Mar 22, 2009 11:31 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs

Destabilizer

I think “destabilizing force”, in a Mark Twain sense, does not even approach what’s going on within Astana. “destabilizing” would be accurate if what was happening was a result of nothing more than Lance’s presence and the hard work he’s putting in. It implies that the situation is simply a matter of confusioin resulting from two strong riders / leaders emerging on a single team and that there is no bad intent.

But Lance and Johan are actively and intentionally working to undermine Alberto’s season and career.

As I said in the article, if one feels ill at ease with the term “cancer”, then he or she should freely insert whatever word they believe is more tasteful and appropriate. But “cancer” exactly expresses my view of what is occuring as a direct result of introducing Lance Armstrong as a member of Astana.

Learn more. Be better.

by Bikezilla on Mar 22, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions

OK

It’s your right to choose your words. I just think “cancer” sets off a distracting discussion, but fine by me.

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris Fontecchio on Mar 22, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions

yeah I have to agree

there are a million different words one could use here, “cancer” seems like an attempt to be provocative just for the sake of being provocative.

I’m someone who’s not a huge fan of Armstrong, and I’m generally less sympathetic to him than to Kimmage. But it was precisely Kimmage’s use of the term “cancer” that allowed Armstrong to attack him only for that, rather than addressing any of the more substantial points Kimmage was making. Seems counter-productive to me.

by plinytheelder on Mar 22, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions

+1

i get where the metaphor comes from – we’re not supposed to criticize intentions that are dressed up in a good cause. and at the same time, i think there are good points being made in the discussion that run the risk of going unheard when inflammatory language gets used. i do think Kimmage knee-capped his argument in the public eye by doing that.

You may very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment.

by nicknorco on Mar 22, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions

Yea "cancer" is certainly unnecesasary and inappropriate

And all the speculation from little snipits we hear is just that… speculation. I think we will see LA and Levi play as two super-domestiques this week and lay to rest some of this speculation or at least how well they are going to work as a team in the coming stage races. Contador is most likely stuck because of his contract and it’s well known within the team that he is leaving as soon as he can, but these guys aren’t going to sabotage anyone’s or the teams season.

by sminer on Mar 22, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions

here I might disagree slightly

I wouldn’t be surprised if Armstrong, consciously or unconsciously (probably a bit of both), sought to undermine or sabotage Contador for his own benefit. The whole situation, to my mind, has the potential to flare up into a Hinault-Lemond clash. But this is why I think it’s a bit silly to speak of “cancer”: the moment this word is uttered, we lose our ability to debate the finer points of the issue…which I think merit debate.

(No offence to Armstrong fans, I’m just calling it like I see it, I could be dead wrong and if I am I’ll admit it.)

by plinytheelder on Mar 22, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions

That's cool, and you may be more right than wrong

I will be shocked if they implode, I will be shocked if Contador doesn’t emerge the TDF leader with the team’s full support, I will also be shocked if they lose the Tour. But I don’t see that they have to go into the Tour declaring Contador as the sole team leader. Saxo didn’t declare a leader last year and it worked out for them.

by sminer on Mar 22, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions