Holy Week 2009: What Did We Learn?
by Chris Fontecchio on Apr 13, 2009 2:32 AM EDT
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PrintFor a sport where people rarely remember who finished second, the fact that the Tour of Flanders and Paris-Roubaix were both won by the same guys as last year -- the same teammates -- suggests that nothing happened in Holy Week 2009 that we didn't already know. Obviously that's not the case, and with the help of the post-race observations thread here are a few take-home messages.
* Tom Boonen doesn't just win Classics on the line. He can power away from the field, or however he separates himself he can ride alone and stay away. Seems like every time he and Pozzato rode a cobbled section, Boonen's lead grew. He took corners fearlessly and pounded away on the stones. He really is the whole package in the northern classics.
* Filippo Pozzato is probably better suited to Flanders than Roubaix. Great at both, but the big cobbles took a little out of him in the end, and unlike Boonen Pippo will not be remembered for his nimble cornering.
* The biggest difference between the two races is that in Flanders the riders have to make the race or it won't happen. In Paris-Roubaix, the carnage is inevitable. You can't simply mark the strongest man out of the race.
* The biggest difference between Quick Step and their rivals is aggression. Well, talent too, and the two go together. But as Boonen mentions (and R Mc explains poignantly in the post-race thread), at some moment you have to seize the race. Boonen and Devolder were each by far the true aggressors in their respective wins. Pozzato took a lot of crap for not seizing the race either Sunday, but the same could be said for virtually any of the remaining favorites. Hincapie gets rung up for this too. This is what distinguishes the classics from the grand tours: in the latter, having the best legs will generally, eventually get it done, but in a one-day event you have to take risks and try to seize the race.
* One last new item: Edvald Boasson Hagen is going to be a star.
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Indeed
Couldn’t agree more with all the points you’ve made…….but may I add one more, to paraphrase Boonen, “You don’t win races sucking wheels”………..hear that Pippo?
Or
You can win by doing a pretty hefty amount of wheel sucking, as long as at the key moment you change tactics and attack. If you spend the key moment doing more wheel sucking, then probably no.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Apr 13, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
very loosely quoting coggan and allan
“Winning racers probably spend at least 15-25% of their races coasting. So, if you’re pedalling all the time in a race, you need to ask yourself just what the hell you’re doing.”
You could waste a lot of time watching Armstrong’s tdf victories waiting to turn your stopwatch on to record exactly how much time he spent in the wind.
The key principle is: make every effort count. Boonen gets this; Flecha not so much. Pozzatto reacts instead of acting. To win with that strategy you have to—pardon the tennis term—be able to break your opponents’ serve every once in a while.
oh, I don't know
Pippo took plenty of turns at the front yesterday, at least in the part of the race I saw (last 100km). It’s true that he lost any chance to win the race because he wasn’t at the front of the group when Flecha fell, but you can’t be at the front the whole time, even Boonen wasn’t. I think Pozzato’s strategy was fine yesterday: stay with the main break, get to the velodrome in one piece, win the sprint. Worked for Boonen against Cancellara and Ballan.
by plinytheelder on Apr 13, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know if I would say it's a talent thing
There are guys who are just as talented as Boonen and the rest of the QS team, if not more so. It’s about peaking and season focus. Well, that and a lifetime spent riding shitty roads in horrible weather, but that’s not necessarily talent. It’s more of an acquired skill. Talent suggests that inherent quality that you can’t teach. Riding cobbles and winning PR or Flanders is something that you can do once you “learn” how to do it and of course have the right attributes for the race.
If I just had one more gear, I...
Yeah but even if those talented guys did peak the same way like Quick Step does....
and they do, I don’t think that they could beat them. Tom Boonen is one of a kind, the best classics rider of his generation, and the rest of the Quick Steppers are essentially hand picked for these races. Boonen has been doing well in these races since he essentially started.
If any guys are out there that could beat Boonen then I think they would have shown up all ready with a few exceptions like EBH who is only 21 and riding for somebody else who can never seem to get it done. Boonen does have talent for this…he probably has mini-cobblestones in his DNA…probably being the reason why he does so much stupid crap.
by Vlaanderen90 on Apr 13, 2009 8:02 AM EDT up reply actions
See statement above about a lifetime riding shitty roads in even shittier weather
You’re right, you have to have the talent (right size body and engine) for this riding, but again, it always goes back to riding on these roads for your entire life. To be honest, I’m not sure where talent ends and training/skillset begins. I do know that I’m ready for the Boonen show to be over with and to get some new blood up there, he’s becoming a one trick pony.
If I just had one more gear, I...
Ha ha
No, I just want to see him win something else. I was never a big LA fan but he got so much crap about only winning the Tour while Boonen is essentially doing the same thing these days with PR and Flanders and not catching any crap for it. Before LA was winning the Tour, he was winning one day races. I get that the Flemish are crazy about Flanders and Roubaix, but there are other races.
If I just had one more gear, I...
when that one-trick is Paris-Roubaix
and he knows how to peak and win for it like nobody else… its going to be long time before any fresh blood, probably under his tutelage, becomes another dominator of the northern classics.
With the training skillset bit… training can only get you so far. You have to have the skills to back it up and know where to be and when. I think that is the difference between Hincapie and Boonen…If they were on equal fitness coming into the race then I believe that Boonen would win just because he knows how to read the race better and knows how to use his fitness better when.
by Vlaanderen90 on Apr 13, 2009 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
In the after interview yesterday,
Didn’t Boonen mention experience and knowing the race as a big factor why he’s able to win it? I’m not the biggest Boonen fan but I was okay with and happy for him winning after watching how he did what he had to give himself the chance to win. Up front, attentive, attacking to keep things going the way he needed them too. Guy gets my applause for a job very well done.
"...if you're not going to pull through, I'm going to attack you." ~CVV (ToBC Stg 4)
IMHO
Boonen is better suited to Flanders, but it’s easier to mark out guys there, and everyone seems to think they need to do just that. Cancellara is my perfect P-R rider, in the sense that he’s the best at delivering the single most important output — pure, grinding wattage — but Boonen is close enough to stay with him most years.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Apr 13, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
One trick pony?
2 wins in Flanders, 3 in Paris-Roubaix, 1 green jersey, 6 TdF stages, 1 rainbow jersey…
It may seem like Paris-Roubaix is all he does, but I think that has more to do with his missing the TdF last year than with his training or specialization.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
I wonder
He seems very interested in the Worlds this year. Will Tommeke build his second peak around a bit more climbing, i.e. lower weight? He might; I think another green jersey might be a reach.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Apr 13, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
A Green Jersey could be in reach...he said he wanted one
but a few things would have to happen…1) Cav would have to either get dropped on a few stages of pull out before the end 2) he would have to sprint for all of the intermediate sprints.
Worlds will be a bit of a toss up- He was previewing it as early as February and after the Tour he might be able to lose a few kilo’s ala Cancellara at the olympics…but I think the worlds course is something like 15,000 feet of climbing so it might be a bit much for him but we shall see. It does have a flat finish
by Vlaanderen90 on Apr 13, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
15K of climbing?
That’s a wee bit of climbing. By the time he gets to the flat, someone a bit more climbey could well have won and be sipping champagne.
If I just had one more gear, I...
Tommy and Worlds
He said he was interested in them last year as well; geared his late season around them. You can see where that brought him.
But the Worlds are different (at least the Worlds that have hills like last eyar and this) and he has to deal with riders he doesn’t have to on the cobbles, namely the Ardennes guys. He doesn’t yet have an answer for them.
+1
The guys like Valverde, Cunego, hell even Evans. Those guys can go up the Ardennes climbs pretty well. And being much smaller, they have a distinct advantage. With his size, it seems like he may never be able to deal those kinds of climbs.
If I just had one more gear, I...
I don't know...I think he could pull something out of nowhere...
He was strong last year at worlds but he just did the classic Tom and sat up when a few of his teammates were up the road…The problem with the worlds is that whenever it is in Italy they always make it Hilly as all get out…
This year might not be good for him but the next two years might be better (Melbourne or Geelong then Copenhagen)
I know Valv.Piti and the rest can climb well, I wouldn’t doubt that…But if Boonen wanted to just lose a few and try it I think I think it would be nice to see.
by Vlaanderen90 on Apr 13, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
If he wanted to lose a few...
That’s the problem. I think a) he’s a great rider, and b) his motivation is not that great. I was saying before Flanders (after E3) he would lose that race then win P-R. Yeah you could say he lost Flanders due to team tactics but the Tom we saw at P-R would not have lost Flanders and in fact would have been the one to make the winning move regardless of if Pippo was stuck on his arse or not. I do feel, and this season confirmed it to me, that Boonen is just not that highly motivated anymore. He can get it up for a specific race or two, but not for a season.
And given that he’s now saying he doesn’t like bunch sprints (and Cavendish owns him in those now which isn’t a coincidence) I don’t see a flatter Worlds course as more winnable.
Well we don't know about his motivation...
If it was really that bad…he would ride from Qatar to Scheldeprijs and then stop for the rest of the year.
He will win the worlds at least once more. Be it in the next year or 2 or 5 years from now, he will win it again.
Also about the P-R and Flanders bit, he has said that Flanders is harder to win because it is easier to cover people…in Roubaix you cannot hide. If he was one of the strongest in the race in Flanders, which he probably was, it doesn’t mean he could win the race on strength alone. He wouldn’t tow up somebody like Pozzato in Flanders because it is easier to hide a little bit than Roubaix, where if you cannot go over the cobbles you are absolutely done. He would rather see a teammate win than tow up another person that would have a chance to win the sprint.
And flatter is a relative term..I’m not saying Roubaix flat but rather a race like Madrid that had a climb and was still decisive and split the field up and was a flat sprint at the end.
He wants another green jersey and he will get that…98 % sure…Even though Cavendish won 4 stages at the TDF last year he never wore the green jersey because he couldn’t hold on climbs near the end. Now this might change this year with Cav climbing better but Boonen has a serious chance to be able to take it no matter if Cav wins more stages.
by Vlaanderen90 on Apr 13, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
You're right and
I don’t know how interesting the green jersey comp is now compared to when Zabel was in his prime. There seemed to be ton of great sprinters and now, just a couple.
If I just had one more gear, I...
It might not be too bad
obviously it seems like Cav is the favorite, but if he has a bad time over the hills, Boonen and Hushovd have both won it before. And speaking of former winners, I’ll be interested in seeing what kind of form Freire is on in July. Though, I admit, beyond that, I’m not coming up with any names of people who appear to be likely contenders.
Cavendish finished the Giro last year.
Which was brutally hilly.
IIRC he only really pulled out of the Tour last year to prepare for the Olympics.
He doesn’t have a serious problem with mountains.
As I recall
Cav had problems keeping the pace at the end in the Tour. There was this stage, maybe his last, with a cat 4 bump where he got dropped. I think Freire won that stage.
Oh my, I've just fallen in love with Roger De Vlaeminck's sideburns.
by TheFigurehead on Apr 13, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
True.
But my point was simply that Cavendish can finish grand tours, which is often enough for the best pure sprinter to get the green.
So I imagine he wouldn’t necessarily have to win that kind of stage (the one you refer to) to win the green, if he racks up enough stage wins elsewhere – which is more than likely.
Granted, he does need to be more consistent, but I imagine if he had stayed in the Tour, he would have been a serious contender for the green, despite not figuring on the stage Freire won.
And thinking about it, that stage seemed to resemble MSR in its ‘hill close to the end, before bunch sprint’ nature – perhaps Cavendish is a little more prepared and motivated for that kind of finish this year.
You're half right
he did pull out to prepare for the Olympics but, IIRC, he only pulled out when he did when, on the stage that TFH is thinking of (to Digne-les-Bains), he got dropped and Freire won, which put Freire too far ahead of Cav in the points competition for Cav to legitimately think of overtaking him. And that’s something to consider: despite Cav’s 4 wins in last year’s Tour, at the point he pulled out, he was 4th in the points competition. Admittedly, he was 2nd starting the day, but even then he was 28 points behind Freire. I haven’t gone back to see how he got so far behind Freire while winning 4 stages, but it does suggest that Cav may not necessarily be a lock this year either.
I thought the plan
was to pull out that day anyway, regardless of the result on that stage.
The big mountains started the next day, and Cavendish wanted to prepare for the track – quitting at that point had been the plan (as far as I am aware) from day 1 of the Tour. Of course that stage win would have been a bonus, but even had he won, I imagine he would still have pulled out.
Of course, maybe the real reason he quit was his diminishing green jersey chances – but that would fly in the face of the official story.
Green Jersey
I wonder, is it worth it? Tommeke was the sprinter of choice at a time when the peloton lacked a pure sprinter, but those days are SOOOO over. If he could win in grand style, lots of stages, he might get credit back home, but will his team want to invest in him winning quietly, intermediate points and such? Certainly they’ll take it if it falls in their lap, and I guess QSI have nothing else to do in July. But I dunno how interested they really are.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Apr 13, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think Boonen will lower his weight much more for the tour.
Remember when he did that a few years back and he got ill and had to abandon? He has said it was because he was too skinny, and will never do that again.
Good point
Adding, how the hell does everyone around here remember everything every rider ever said? I don’t even try to fill out my thoughts anymore; I just suggest stuff and you guys add in the facts. Chapeau!
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Apr 13, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh
like we need another one of those? ;)
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Apr 13, 2009 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions
OK
talent, focus, feel, skill, specialization, some combo thereof. Fair point.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Apr 13, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Except in Boonen's case
That dude was built for Paris-Roubaix. Perfect body for it, if you believe the thigh-length physical explanations.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Apr 13, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
It does seem like the longer the thigh, the more leverage you can put to the pedals
The knee being forward of the pedaling axis seems to put more power to the downstroke with less effort. Kinda like setting your road bike up for a TT. You move the seat forward until you are more over your gear, makes for a mechanical advantage. Or so it seems.
If I just had one more gear, I...
Let us not forget Maggie B
Magnus Backstedt, winner Paris-Roubaix 2004, was 1m93cm (6’ 4" in US units !). The guy was built to win this race, if not a lot else. I am guessing he has freakin’ long femurs.
Probably not the best build for managing the cols in Grand Tours or the hills during the Ardennes but he was a monster on the cobbles !
Femur length is secondary to so many other things though.
For this race and any other race. That is kind of a wives tale, although it is true in general that having a long femur in relation to the lower leg length is good for cycling. But there are many exceptions among champion cyclists.
And I don’t think Boonen’s femur length ratio (to lower leg length) is anywhere near say, Pippo’s.
"....Up Sestriere on a rental clunker in jeans and loafers? Brother, lemme buy you a beer."
by Rolls on Apr 13, 2009 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
For most of the race
I was terribly irritated with Pozzato. Then, he started to work in the 6 man winning break and I was more favorably disposed towards him. I think at the root of it, he pissed me off at Flanders by marking Boonen out so much. So yes, my animosity was personal.
To me the strongest guys yesterdday were:
1) Boonen
2) Van Sumeren
2a) Pozzato
That was the best 1 day race I’ve ever watched. It had everything.
"I didn't look for him and I didn't see him. If you base your race on another rider, most of the time you lose."
Tom Boonen
We also learned that Drew's man-love for Tommeke makes him slightly over-enthusiastic
Surely not the best? In my book a little too many people were eliminated by mishaps rather than through attacking/exhaustion for it to be that great.
Agreed
on the mishaps thing. I have no opinion on Drew.
Yes
The race did kind of peter out towards the end. Obviously that’s to Boonen’s credit, but after the crashes, there was not much genuine excitement.
Not like, say, Flanders 07, which had a spectacular finish.
Best that I've watched, or at least the best I've watched in a long time.
To me, mishaps, exhaustion, crashes are all part of the race. Had something like Van Sumeren attacking off the front when they were all together and everyone letting him go for the win, that would have been exciting as well.
Basically I thought it was a terrific episode of the race and I throughly enjoyed watching it twice (once on Ctv, once on Vs last night).
"I didn't look for him and I didn't see him. If you base your race on another rider, most of the time you lose."
Tom Boonen
Hey
What’d you think of VS compared to CTV? I felt like Anthony and Brian picked up far more details on the fly than P&P did, and that’s not just the editing. P&P are very entertaining, but A&B are all over the race methinks.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Apr 13, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
It's no comparison - A&B have it all going
P&P fall back onto the same things they’ve been saying for the past 10 years, which we can all recite by rote now. Doesn’t make them wrong, or bad, but A&B pick up on things much quicker and Brian is better (imo) at calling race tactics before they happen.
With the exception of losing the Ctv feed from 14k – 7k to go (I must have dropped the F variant 100 fucking times), it behaved very well for me.
"I didn't look for him and I didn't see him. If you base your race on another rider, most of the time you lose."
Tom Boonen
Some others mentioned the dropped feed yesterday.
I’m going to hope it wasn’t that I was just lucky but it was flawless yesterday for me the entire race. Not even a single occurance of buffering.
"...if you're not going to pull through, I'm going to attack you." ~CVV (ToBC Stg 4)
yep the feed dropped on me too - just before 'the' crash so I missed all of that
and then I would get the ‘you are not authorized to view this feed’ crappy error message.
VS was disappointing
I watched the justin.tv thread in the AM and then VS at night. The drama of the final 25k was gone in the VS commercials because of the commercial breaks. I think they even missed Tommeke’s flat tire, which was interesting and telling – showing everyone has bad luck.
I watched both and I prefer B&A (even with B having a cold)
over listening to the VS commentary yesterday. I like P&P, always will, but they are missing things – it seems like a lot recently. They were great when I first really started following cycling but there’s a whole new batch of riders since then and I think their lack of knowledge about them is making them less interesting to listen to. They focus on the few riders they know really well and they miss the aspect of what’s actually going on. There was one part of the race where I was watching and I could see a crash in the background and it took them the replay of it to even realize it happened.
I, do not however, have any issue watching the race on the Versus HD channel I recently discovered. I was in heaven being able to watch the race on the tv and it wasn’t all blury like from being blown up larger. Heavenly.
"...if you're not going to pull through, I'm going to attack you." ~CVV (ToBC Stg 4)
I have been dissapointed with VS too. After watching live feed...usually Euro sport or JustinTV,
how many damn commercials does VS need in two hours? I think I’m actually picking up a couple of second languages listening to these live streams. ;-) But two hours of P-R is NOT enough!
I noticed
Armstrong twittered yesterday “Is it just me or does Versus show a ton of commercials?”
The recording time for VS yesterday, w/out the commercials, was less than 90 minutes.
"...if you're not going to pull through, I'm going to attack you." ~CVV (ToBC Stg 4)
Since you're a saint
You’re much more charitable than I am ;-) (And I mean the saint part).
Phil’s and Paul’s day is over. They do not understand enough about tactics, equipment, training, and the current racers to do their job of making the racing seem interesting to new viewers.
My reference point for this assessment is not Anthony and Brian, but the broadcast approach taken with nascar. I mean, really, once you get over the “whoosh” factor, is there anything more boring to watch than nascar racing? Golf. Bowling. Macneil Lehrer.
Ok, lots of things are more boring than nascar, but outside of the crashes, almost every feature of the racing requires explanation—and there’s almost never a field sprint, and you don’t get to see the racer’s working. b-O-riNG!!
Regulars have read this rant before, but repetition’s not always a bad thing. Nascar announcers make their sport interesting by a). segmenting the coverage so that they can describe the micro-strategies and tactics that produce macro-results. This builds interest by creating understanding. This is where Brian Smith is especially good. b). By having recently retired racers in the booth and good spotters, they can point out technical features—such as horsepower. Again, this stuff builds interest; c). by having slews of camera angles—in car, on the track, etc. they can provide excellent coverage of the racing from within the race. While this approach to coverage has been attempted (Zuri-Metzgete, Rund um Schweiz), for whatever reason it’s woefully under-used.
In Phil and Paul’s defense, they are under-resourced: they have to work from tiny screens with race-radio in their ear, so an average viewer probably has a better view than they do. But neither one of them have the knowledge and comfort level to deliver a comment like “Boonen will have to sustain around a constant 470watts—or just over half a horsepower—for the next 10 miles.”
And . . . Phil has been missing calls for 20 years. He’s not as bad as Duffield, but, really.
and another big weakness is the fact that they do not introduce new riders to the audience
it’s always a focus on the same very few riders year after year. You have to build up interest in a bunch of riders, show the quirks, the ups & downs so that the audience is connected and then they will follow. It’s all about branding and marketing.
If not, we’ve all seen what happens when your focus retires … loss of audience.
I can't believe you just dissed McNeil/Lehrer. ;)
Seriously though…if Jalen Rose didn’t exist I would consider Jim Lehrer god.
by plinytheelder on Apr 13, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
arguable
that those mishaps were the consequences of exhaustion.
With apologies to the folks who really like him, Flecha’s over-rated. He’s got no tactical sense, because he keeps trying long breaks that effectively pit him against Boonen and Quickstep. He also has some interesting cobble-riding techniques (out of the saddle? ya kidding me?), but bagging on him for that crash the way Hoste did is going too far. Washing out your front wheel’s pretty easy to do on an irregular, dusty surface.
And that brings us to \o/.
Mentioning Boasson Hagen reminds me of a special hell for riders: being a talented support rider for a no-hoper. Why wouldn’t Vinokourov attack his own team? Van Summeren and his agent need to shop the P-R video around to everyone—either to get Marc Sergeant to find a way to send \o/ to Rock Racing, or to find a team where Van Summeren can be a leader, or, at least, a super-dom whose work goes for something.
\o/ has built his career around being the gollum of the classics: he sits around waiting for things to fall into his lap, without ever showing any overt aggression. He does have sweet bike-handling skills, though: the power-slide he executed when the Lion of Flanders flag caught in his rear wheel in the 04 P-R was something else. (And it belies my claim above, since it happened whilst he was attacking. Maybe he took it as a divine judgment never to let that happen again.)
'06 Flanders
Maybe his last attack that I can remember.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Apr 13, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
interesting point about Flecha -
I, as one of his fans…well, I don’t know if I’d call him overrated, but it does seem that those early-ish wins came in part because people didn’t know him that well. It’s clear that you have to take those Quixotic one-man attacks seriously (I take it this is what you mean?), because he’s got a lot of power and grit. But once you do take them seriously…well, it seems to me that you basically neutralize him. In the final 6-man break yesterday, it was clear that he had the least chance of winning, because Pozzato, Boonen and Hushovd are all better sprinters, and there were 2 Lotto guys. So, while the one-man attacks don’t have a high likelihood of succeeding, it was clear that he had to try something at some point.
I thought Hoste’s words were a bit over the top too, but in fairness to him, Pozzato also criticized Flecha. From VN:
“He fell for nothing, and he almost caused disaster,” said Pozzato about Flecha. "But before that he was riding badly anyway. He wasn’t taking any share of the relays in the group.
by plinytheelder on Apr 13, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know if Flecha is overrated
I don’t rate him quite as highly as Tommeke, Ballan, or Cancellara on the cobbles. I put him in a group w/ Hoste, Devolder, Pozzato, Hincapie and Nuyens. Top of the sport, but not the elitest of the elite. Flecha has the pure horsepower to grind away from the field on the cobbles. He doesn’t have anything else. All his career he’s been voted “most likely to work in a break and then get out-sprinted”. Admittedly, this gets him in lots of breaks, but it doesn’t win many races. (Nico Mattan: example A)
So Flecha is in an elite group who CAN win Paris-Roubaix, he’s a rare rider who can lead a dedicated team in April. He’s going to end his career with a truly impressive palmares, but one without a surplus of really top-quality wins. He’ll make a lot of podiums though.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
agreed
except on Pozzato (well maybe Devolder too but that’s a different story) – I think Pozzato’s got a great shot at winning these races on multiple occasions before his career’s over…on the condition that he get some teammates.
Something a bit weird would probably have to happen for Flecha to win the race – get in a break with lesser riders that succeeded against the odds. The problem is that no one is going to let Flecha get in one of those breaks.
by plinytheelder on Apr 13, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
Pippo’s 27, does everything well, etc. He has only been free to race for himself for three seasons now; prior to that he was a Lefevre pawn. And in those last three seasons (including now) his biggest sin is not singlehandedly solving the QSI juggernaut. It’s easy to say he’s not aggressive, but he STOLE that MSR a few years back with aggression. Why? Because he had Boonen as his teammate, ready to win if it came to a sprint. See a pattern here?
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Apr 13, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
If it's Boonen we're talking about it's called male-pattern-baldness
(but the hotitude crowd are unwilling to broach the subject)
I’m personally not saying Pippo is not aggressive. My take is that he doesn’t have the confidence to commit. Look at Boonen, Devolder, Cance and Ballan these last years. They decide when it’s go-time. They know there is a chance it won’t be the winning move but they pick their moments and commit to them.
Pozzato probably needs one eye-opening win to get a feel for what he can and cannot do. When he does he will be a true classics-ace.
Confidence
Pippo had it when he wasn’t the leader, and when Tom Boonen was his teammate. I guess it’s different now, though Katusha was probably a good move for him in terms of less pressure. One more ace teammate and I think he’d feel better.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Apr 13, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe...Flecha?
this is probably silly speculation, and I have no idea what the terms of his contract with Rabobank are. But…well, I read this thread, then went on a ride, and kept thinking, Flecha would make an excellent Chavanel-type guy…for someone like Pippo. Chavanel obviously climbs better, but for classics season? It would be great to see Flecha, with the motor he has, setting things up for Pozzato.
This could obviously be beneficial for Flecha too – one of those “kamikaze” solo efforts might actually work, à la Devolder, if he actually had a teammate someone had to worry about. (Has there been a more disappointing team than Rabobank this year?) Hey Katusha sign Flechita.
by plinytheelder on Apr 13, 2009 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
re-thinking
especially that part about “dedicated team” . . .
How much of Flecha’s approach is dictated by knowing that he rides for Rabobank, who are excellent at what they do (which is eerily reminiscent of the Scots suicide squad from Monty Python).
I know that last year he was complaining mightily about the lack of support he got.
Best P-R
I’d put this second for action behind 2006, when I was completely dizzy afterwards. Last year was great, pure class on parade, but this one was more heart-stopping.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Apr 13, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
I learnt that
everyone should come and experience the Spring Classics, had an amazing time… Met some amazing people and new friends.
I’ll post my thread with photos, stories and war wounds soon… Still have Amstel Gold to go..
Oh and Partying on the Carrefour l’Arbre was something i’ll never forget.. video to follow..
"the rest was over 30. And that doesn't mean old and useless, but experienced and with the stamina"
Jens! Voigt, Crit Intl Interview, 2009
Ooops still got Scheldeprijs first up!
"the rest was over 30. And that doesn't mean old and useless, but experienced and with the stamina"
Jens! Voigt, Crit Intl Interview, 2009
One more thing - Sneak shot of What NOT to do!
"the rest was over 30. And that doesn't mean old and useless, but experienced and with the stamina"
Jens! Voigt, Crit Intl Interview, 2009
ow ow frickin ow!
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Apr 13, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
We learned Boonen is the Classics Patron
Resurrecting this term, He is the Classics Patron for this generation. Look at the races over the whole spring. In every one people were reacting to Tom Boonen. They had to account for him all the time. Either they were sticking to him, or reacting off of him. He always made the race.
All the props to Stijn Devolder, and I think he could win Flanders without Boonen on his team, but there will always be that slight doubt. I wish they could have fought each other. If Cancellara could have been healthy in Roubaix he is the only one I see currently who can really put the power down at the end to challenge Boonen. He got beat last year but he could learn and will be a threat again. In any event Boonen will be there. Whether you like the fact of his fast living or not, he is THE classics rider of the 21st Century generation.
Basically agree
although a healthy combo of Cancellara and Ballan could maybe put him on a more defensive posture.
To steal an old favorite quote, I like Ballan. He fights. [Cance too]
Drew will get that one.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Apr 13, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm guessing it took him a minute
How long it will take him to “get” the Reply-button is another matter.
What's a reply button?
"I didn't look for him and I didn't see him. If you base your race on another rider, most of the time you lose."
Tom Boonen
With a little luck
we could have Devo on a new team next year, making the fight for Roubaix even more exciting (especially with Ballan and Cancellara back on form).
"I didn't look for him and I didn't see him. If you base your race on another rider, most of the time you lose."
Tom Boonen
All respect to Devolder
but I don’t think that will make a difference. Look at what Pozzato, Nuyens, Paolini, and Steegmans to new teams did. Unless that new team puts team first and ego second he’ll just be another highly talented rider riding for himself.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
not saying he'll win it, just another exciting protagonist
Pippo did pretty well with no team around him, I think Devo can do the same.
"I didn't look for him and I didn't see him. If you base your race on another rider, most of the time you lose."
Tom Boonen
Devolder signed a deal through 2010 with a option for 2011...don't think he is going anywhere
by Vlaanderen90 on Apr 13, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
D'oh!
"I didn't look for him and I didn't see him. If you base your race on another rider, most of the time you lose."
Tom Boonen
Wow Dude - get off my wavelength, there's only room for me right now.
"I didn't look for him and I didn't see him. If you base your race on another rider, most of the time you lose."
Tom Boonen
I'd rank this in the top 10 of Roubaix's in recent memory (last 15 years from 1994)
1994 was the end all, be all best ever with Tchmil through about 5 feet of mud.
then 2002 (Museeuw), 2006 (Cancellara), 1996 (Mapei trifecta), 2001 (Lotto trifecta with Hincapie fourth), then this edition, the 1997 (Guesdon), then a few others
I wish 94 was available on disc or tape
I’d kill (literally) to see that.
"I didn't look for him and I didn't see him. If you base your race on another rider, most of the time you lose."
Tom Boonen
Well then your in luck
World Cycling Productions came out with this a newly remastered copy of the greatest bike race ever.
2.5 hours of coverage…Tchmil at his finest
by Vlaanderen90 on Apr 13, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Hooray!
You just made my day – chapeu
"I didn't look for him and I didn't see him. If you base your race on another rider, most of the time you lose."
Tom Boonen
When you're done
watching the Midwest gets to watch then, right?
"...if you're not going to pull through, I'm going to attack you." ~CVV (ToBC Stg 4)
Is that
the picture of Tchmil with only his lips and eyes visible?
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Apr 13, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Mhm...
There are some pretty gnarly photos
by Vlaanderen90 on Apr 13, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Begging the question
who do you now have to kill?
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Apr 13, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Would have loved to see a Thor/Boonen showdown
It is too bad Thor clipped the side of that barrier and went down. I think a Boonen Thor shoot out in the end would have been great.
Flecha always seems to be up there in the end but is never really a factor. Something always happens and he seems to fade or screw up somewhere. Hoste and Van Summern were strong yesterday althought I don’t know if they would have been able to beat Boonen in the end.
+1
While I’m glad for Tommeke, I think I liked last year’s edition better simply because the race wasn’t completely decided when the first rider entered the velodrome. Yeah, it was unlikely that either Ballan or Tony were going to beat Boonen after they all entered the velodrome together, but at least Boonen had to work for it.
I hear you there,
but I also remember from the post-race interviews that Boonen tried to drop them but couldn’t. This year, Tommeke, if I’m remembering correctly, did a LOT more attacking to soften up the field before the final. Thor and Vanderflecha had legs, but its oxygen debt from sprinting the cobbles that put them into the barriers. This year the strongest rider put the hurt on everyone else early and didn’t allow them to follow him to the velodrome.
Cosmo provided some great photo-evidence of moto-pacing, but the watch clearly showed that Pozzato couldn’t keep Boonen’s pace over the cobbles without a wheel to follow. A sprint for the victory is more exciting to watch, but yesterday showed us how a champion reads a race and hits the competition where they are vulnerable.
I’m of the opinion that winning from a decisive break is more impressive than winning a bunch or small bunch sprint. This is what sets a real champion apart from someone who wins races: the ability to make a race. Riders like a young Valverde or Pozzato have something to learn from true champions like Bettini, Rebellin, Museeuw, or DiLuca: following wheels and winning bunch sprints are one thing, attacking the field and winning from 20-40 kms out is another.
Of course, I’ll also have to grant that of this generation, Ballan and Cancellara are Tommeke’s greatest rivals in PR. So while I’d rather see a master tactician drop the rivals than a wheelsucker sit and sprint, I’d even rather-er see a master tactician work his whiles on the strongest competition.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
I'll agree with you on everything
except that on your list of champions Musseuw is the only long-range attacker. I’d even go as far as to say that Rebellin rarely attacked from further out than 20-40 metres.
not really
Rebellin would make a good clandestine assassin. Case in point: he got a lot of grief for wheel-sucking Boogerd the year he won Amstel, but if you really pay attention, it was Rebellin’s move that started the break.
So, to revise your statement, Rebellin’s solo attacks rarely last more than 40 meters, because if no one goes with him he shuts it down. Museeuw was sort of the same way—if an attack was doing no damage, he’d shut it down in a hurry, too.
Ballan and Tony
I soarly missed having these two protagonists at RVV and P-R this year. Their presence, on form, would likely have made both races more complicated and interesting. Not that I didn’t enjoy these editions, and not to take anything away from Devolder and Boonen, but those two are champions to be reckoned with.
Viva la Lactique
That's true
but consider the counter-point that consistency is another mark of a champion. Eternal contenders like Armstrong, Bettini, and Zabel get high marks for being nigh-unbeatable while in their prime, but equally high marks for taking care of training and fitness to make sure they had as many prime days of racing in their careers as possible.
I can’t really state definitively that discipline, training, and attention to detail is what sets iron-man Zabel apart from, say, porcelain-fragile Oscar Friere, but I can take my hat off to Boonen for being consistently on form when it counts. It is no accident that he is on form when it matters.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
I agree with that
My comment really is made from the perspective of what interests me as a fan watching the race. I am not a huge Boonen fan but I greatly respect his accomplishments, and did enjoy seeing him solo home yesterday.
Viva la Lactique
We have learned one more important thing about Tom
and about the matter of properly celebrating a win in a Monument.
Here’s the conclucion of his interview to l’Equipe :
Comment allez-vous célébrer cette victoire ?
Je vais manger des frites. (Rires).
Ô col Bayard, Ô Tourmalet, à côté du Galibier, vous êtes de la pale et vulgaire bibine !
Hey, did I call it?
The fastest frite always gets the mayo.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Apr 13, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay--I officially like him again.
"Sean Kelly? Sorry, I am not so good with cycling history. I just want to race." --Edvald Boasson Hagen
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