Homeboys: Nationality in Selected Classics
Willj recently posted:
As an aside, how about an analysis of results by nationality in the French, Belgium and Dutch one day classics.
Ask, and ye shall receive. In this post, I look at ten years of results in four spring classics held in four different countries: Milan-Sanremo, de Ronde van Vlaanderen, Paris-Roubaix, and Amstel Gold. All four are held within a relatively short period of time, so differences in form shouldn't be a major issue (compared to, say, Lombardia, where the field is thinner because a lot of guys are too tired by October to compete). Three are Monuments, which probably skews things a little, but there is no Dutch monument and only one Dutch classic, so if I wanted to look at the Netherlands A-G is it. I thought about including San Sebastian, the only Spanish classic, but since it's held in a very different time of year I decided against it. But someday I might expand and look at all of the classics...until then, you gets what you pays for.
So, how do the homeboys do? One might expect that, for instance, guys who grow up riding on slick wet cobbles would do better in races held under similar conditions. That they care more about winning races on their home turf. That they might even show Willj's anectodally-offered hypothesis that some actively disdain races held in rival countries.
Results on the flip.
But first, a few considerations.
What is nationality? In the two cases of dual nationality that I know of (HH and van der Flecha), I went with country of birth rather than country of license. I didn't decide off the top of my head, but searched out interviews with the riders to see what they thought. Haussler states that he feels more Australian than German and will switch to an Australian license soon. Flecha, who moved from his native Argentina to Spain at the age of 11, was asked in an interview if he felt Spanish now. He replied that he felt he was both Spanish and Argentinian, and that his childhood in Argentina was very formative (that is, after all, where he heard the cobbles even in his sleep). Since he did not state a preference, I went with country of birth for him as well. But neither case skews the top of the results anyway. Much.
What about distribution of nationality in the peloton? Aren't results going to be skewed toward the countries with the biggest population, since they put the most riders in the peloton? This could indeed have an influence, at least to some extent. If you want to play along at home, here is last year's breakdown of active riders in the CQ database, which I drew up for a post in the off season. The countries who get the most butts on bikes are France, Italy, Belgium, Spain, Germany, and the Netherlands--but in terms of success (percent of those riders in CQ's top 200) they are Spain, Italy, Germany, the Netherlands, France, and Belgium.
1. France: 639, 3.1%
2. Italy: 596, 5.7%
3. Belgium: 479, 2.9%
4. Spain: 450, 7.3%
5. Germany: 417, 3.4%
6. Netherlands: 341, 3.2%
7. USA: 318, 1.6%
8. Australia: 254, 3.5%
9. Russia 190, 4.7%
10. Great Britain: 188, 1.1%
I do not know how much the breakdown by nationality might have changed over time, but expect that most of the movement in the ten years covered by this analysis has been in the lower ranks, with more people from outside Continental Europe coming in.
Here, then, is the breakdown by nationality of the top 10 placings in the below spring classics for the past ten years:
Milan-Sanremo 2000-2009
nationality/top 10/podium
Italian 39 12
Spanish 12 3
Belgian 9 2
German 6 4
Australian 6 2
Swiss 4 2
Norwegian 4 2
American 3 1
Latvian 3 1
Czech 3 0
Danish 3 0
Russian 2 0
British 1 1
Dutch 1 0
French 1 0
South African 1 0
Polish 1 0
Slovakian 1 0
How did the homeboys do? Utter dominance. 39% of the top ten; 40% of the podium spots.
Home field advantage? Well, Italians do put a fair number of guys into the field. But if it were all numeric advantage, we would expect to see France on top and Spain right up there. Are they? Let's see...
Who else did well? Spanish riders grabbed the next highest number of top ten finishes, while Germans (okay, mostly German--his last name starts with Z if you need a hint) took the next highest number of podium spots.
Who sucks? Of the big Euro racing countries, France and the Netherlands are major, major losers at MSR. For chrissakes, America has done better.
Conclusion: In Italy, homeboys rule the school.
Ronde van Vlaanderen 2000-2009
nationality/top 10/podium
Belgian 27 16
Italian 22 6
German 10 2
Dutch 10 1
Russian 5 0
Danish 5 0
American 4 1
Australian 3 2
Swiss 3 0
Latvian 2 1
French 2 0
Argentinian 1 1
British 1 0
Slovakian 1 0
Lithuanian 1 0
Kazakh 1 0
Norwegian 1 0
Polish 1 0
Spanish 0 0
How did the homeboys do? A tighter race than MSR, but the Belgians outnumber Italians in top ten finishes 27 to 22, and kill them in podium spots 16 to 6.
Home field advantage? One word: cobbles.
Who else did well? After Italians, the best results belong to Germans and Dutch with 10 top ten placings each, although the Germans have one more podium spot.
But if we counted Heinrich Haussler as German... Shut up.
Who sucks? Spain. Yeah, even if we counted Flecha. Second in the warm hills of Italy at Milan-Sanremo, they plummet when the cold and cobbles come out to play. Which begs the question: why do the Italians do so well here?
Conclusion: Belgians and cobbles go together like frites and mayonnaise. Okay, that was trite, let's try again: like wild Columbia River spring chinook and tapenade?
Paris-Roubaix 2000-2009
nationality/top 10/podium
Belgian 30 10
Italian 15 4
Dutch 9 2
Swiss 6 3
American 6 1
French 6 0
German 5 2
Danish 5 0
Argentinian 4 2
Australian 3 1
British 2 1
Swedish 2 1
Norwegian 2 1
Latvian 2 1
Russian 2 1
Austrian 1 0
Spanish 0 0
How did the homeboys do? It's official: Paris-Roubaix is held in Flanders--Chris proved it the other day. Therefore, the locals win big, with twice as many top-ten finishes and two-and-a-half times as many podium spots as the hillboys from Italy.
Home field advantage? Yes. Well, going with the this-is-Flanders theory, anyway.
Who else did well? Italians, again.Then the Dutch, who also have cobbles at home and can deal with the weather. The Swiss are catching up, though.
Qui suce? Les Francaises. You can see that the nominal homeboys are trying harder here, putting more guys into the top ten than they do in the other classics, but when you're beaten in your home Monument by Americans (same number of top tens but with an actual podium finish among them), you officially suck.
Conclusion: Belgians. Cobbles. We did this already, didn't we? Take away the hills and they're even tougher to beat.
Amstel Gold 1999-2008
nationality/top 10/podium
Italian 30 10
Dutch 16 8
Belgian 11 1
Spanish 11 1
German 9 2
Swiss 5 2
American 4 2
Russian 4 1
Luxembourgish 3 2
French 3 0
Kazakh 1 1
Austrian 1 0
Latvian 1 0
Polish 1 0
How did the homeboys do? Decisively beaten by the hill-loving Italians. But they do better here than in any of the other classics, and do beat the Italians in one stat: half of the Dutch top tens are podium spots, compared to one-third for the Italians. Which shows something...
Home field advantage? Almost certainly. Either the familiarity helps, or they care enough to target the race. Probably both. But then again, if Michael Boogerd had never existed, the Dutch would rank 5th--behind the Germans.
Who else did well? Italians. Hills. Like Pippo and hair gel. After the second-place Dutch, the Belgians and Spanish (who like hills if cobbles are not involved: see MSR) are tied for top tens and podium finishes.
Most of the Belgian activity, interestingly enough, was earlier in the decade. It might be true that they don't consider Amstel such an important race--at least these days. Monument snobs? Saving it for their home Ardennes? Certainly the Belgians beat the Dutch handily in each of the other classics considered here--9 to 1 in MSR; 27 to 10 in RvV; 30 to 9 in P-R. There's got to be some explanation for the different result here. I'm open to suggestions.
Who sucks? We're pretty much back to the French again. For years they've been claiming that they suck because they race clean and everyone else is dirty. Or perhaps Mark Cavendish is onto something when he says, "I don't dislike the French, but I sometimes laugh at the illogical ways of riding they have." (Cycle Sport America, March 2009) You decide.
Conclusion: The Dutch do better at home, and this is the one place they can beat the Belgians. But those pesky Italians do amazingly well, even in the North, where in RvV, P-R, and AG they're a very close second to Belgians in combined top tens: 67 for Italy, 68 for Belgium.
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Dode bladeren
I’ve heard something about the Dutch hegemony that is about to come.
Oh my, I've just fallen in love with Roger De Vlaeminck's sideburns.
by TheFigurehead on Apr 16, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
LBL
who’s the home team? Liege is apparently the North Jersey of Europe, as far as Italian presence.
CQRanking.com, you complete me.
by Chris Fontecchio on Apr 16, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Holy cow. I'm not really good at geography, but I think I can say with utter confidence
that the one place LBL cannot possibly be located is Belgium. I mean, there has not been a Belgian in the top ten of that race since Peter Van Petegem took 7th back in 2002, and no Belgian winner since Frank Vandenbroucke in 1999. Who is Lotto sending, Gilbert? Good luik.
Here are the nationality stats for the past ten editions of LBL (more or less-I was watching 30 Rock and may have mixed up a couple of Italian and Spanish 7th & 8th places):
nationality top 10 podium
Italian 37 11
Spanish 17 6
Dutch 12 5
Swiss 7 1
German 6 1
Luxembourger 5 2
Kazakh 4 2
Belgian 3 1
American 3 1
Australian 2 0
French 2 0
Austrian 1 0
Lithuanian 1 0
You weren’t kidding about the Italian presence. I am learning something here. Hills, no cobbles=Italians, then Spanish. Dutch guys don’t mind climbs, and if Boogie hadn’t existed the Netherlands would have had to invent him.
Oh, and I probably should have put at least one Italian on my VDS team.
"Sean Kelly? Sorry, I am not so good with cycling history. I just want to race." --Edvald Boasson Hagen
Luik
Has a big population group of Italian descent. It is therefore more or less a home-race for Italian riders.
Have I ever put untrue 'facts' up on this amazing site?
Yeah, I know, the answer to that question is yes.
Ha! Was just expressing my "oh right, I knew that"-erlebnis
Isn’t the area around Côte de St Nicolas the Italian quarter?
Yes, the run in to the climb
always goes through neighborhoods where every other window has an italian flag hanging out of it.
Moreover, it is my opinion that Alejandro Valverde is an asshole who should not be allowed to compete in bikeraces right now.
Great job Majope?
I’m wondering about Amstel, specifically wondering of the stats change at all when they started finishing the race up the Cauberg. You mention that Belgian activity in the race was more prominent earlier in the decade and that would hint at a big change in competitiveness with the new finish. The Dutch haven’t won a race on the Cauberg either as far as I remember.
nope
Last Dutch winner was Erik Dekker in 2001. They added the Cauburg in 2003, Vinokourov won the first edition with the current finish.
Thanks for the confirmation
I was thinking that but wasn’t sure with my memories.
Memories. Misty water colored memories.. of the way we were.
D'oh! Should have separated out that stat. Here goes (years a little different to give 5 each way):
Five years before the mast Cauberg: 1998-2002
ITA 13 3
BEL 10 1
NED 9 5
SUI 6 2
USA 3 2
GER 2 1
ESP 2 0
RUS 1 1
FRA 1 0
LAT 1 0
POL 1 0
DEN 1 0
Five years after the Cauberg: 2003-2007
ITA 18 7
ESP 8 0
NED 7 4
GER 7 1
LUX 2 1
BEL 2 0
RUS 2 0
SUI 1 1
KAZ 1 1
USA 1 0
FRA 1 0
ursula and gav are right—the Cauberg knocked the Belgians out. Note also that the Spanish improved dramatically. The Italians dominate both before and after, and the Dutch don’t seem to be affected much either way, apart from not reclaiming that top spot on the podium since. I didn’t label, but as above, first number is top 10 finishes, 2nd is podium spots.
"Sean Kelly? Sorry, I am not so good with cycling history. I just want to race." --Edvald Boasson Hagen
Belgians are just plain weird
Interesting stats.
What I’m seeing is this. Pre-cauberg, the Belgians had no problem doing one more flat finish race, half a week after Scheldeprijs. Once the cauberg was introduced, they see an uphill finish and freak.
And they’re still freaking even though, to take the dominant team Quickstep they have two riders who do great at Flanders, which isn’t all that different, in Devolder and Chavanel- both of them have proved that they can do these Amstel climbs and reall a good deal more.
Now I think Lotto realizes this and that’s why they are targeting Gilbert for the Ardennes. he should be able to handle it.
Lotto has a plan?
Are you sure?
"Sean Kelly? Sorry, I am not so good with cycling history. I just want to race." --Edvald Boasson Hagen
I know! It sounds crazy but there it is.
Lotto:
1) Cobbles team. It’s polluted by having Hoste as the leader. I mean how can you deal with that? Simeple, avoid him and deal with the rest.
2) Ardennes team. Rumor has it that the Ardennes classics are in Belgium too. Or just north of it. I know! Amazing fact! So for a Belgian team the next best thing to doing well in the Cobbles races is doing well in the Ardennes. To that end they made two very big moves last offseason: Gilbert and Dekker. Maybe Dekker doesn’t pan out. But Gilbert might well. Better to have him away from Hoste as much as possible. For Lotto in their eternal battle with Quickstep, the Ardennes aren;t the prime goal but for now if they make a big splash there that’s a decent consolation prize.
3) Grand Tour team. Still a one man band but Gilbert and Dekker might help a bit in the Tour. Young Van den Broeck might race the Tour too. So they might actually be improving their Tour team- or at least they are making more of an effort that we normally give them credit for- and it’s much more of an effort than Quickstep is doing.
You're right.
They’ve been having such a lousy year it’s easy to overlook the fact that they do put some thought into things.
"Sean Kelly? Sorry, I am not so good with cycling history. I just want to race." --Edvald Boasson Hagen
Yeah, but it's funnier the way it is.
"Sean Kelly? Sorry, I am not so good with cycling history. I just want to race." --Edvald Boasson Hagen
This is first class
not just intelligent but fun …
Now, since you do requests: Waloons (french belgians) versus Flamandes (Flemish Belgians) in Belgian races??? :-))))))
formerly known as cyclingchallenge
oooh I don't think the results there would be pretty ;)
as much as it pains me to say, as a kind of Walloon-ish guy myself, bloodlines-wise anyway
by plinytheelder on Apr 16, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Monfort, too. And Christophe Brandt.
I did try once when I was working on a different (never finished) nationality project to compare Walloons and Flamandes (is that the native word, or is it something beginning with Vl?), but it’s harder than I thought to tell them apart. Walloon names aren’t always French-sounding—Frank Vandenbroucke was born in a town in Wallonia but has a Dutch-sounding name, and according to his Wikipedia article was brought up in another Dutch-speaking town…which when looked up, is in Wallonia. Maybe I’m too easily confused, but…
I could give it a shot sometime anyway, but probably not this week—I actually have some work work to do, dammit.
"Sean Kelly? Sorry, I am not so good with cycling history. I just want to race." --Edvald Boasson Hagen
yes and in French
Flamande?
I suck at English grammar let alone Belgian but:
in English is it Fleming (noun), and Flemish (adjective) ?
As in the Flemish cyclist is a billiant Fleming?
Or should I just ask my Flemish pal? ;)
formerly known as cyclingchallenge
interesting post!
The French case really stands out to me. In their defence, and as you suggested, they basically treat P-R as a foreign race anyways – in the French cycling mentality it’s all about the Tour. I suppose that’s a slight exaggeration, but just look at the “cyclisme” page at L’équipe – the Tour has a section unto itself; all the other races are lumped into “saison 2009.” I think P-R, for most French people, is that weird northern race, in that region where they drink beer instead of wine, and have a Britiish rather than a French climate. I mean, just think about the race titles: do you want to do well at “la Grande Boucle” and “la course au soleil”…or would you rather kill yourself in “l’enfer du nord”?
Not that French cycling isn’t down in general. Graeme Fife has an interesting article about this, entitled “Morale,” in the latest Rouleur. It’s too short and descriptive for my liking but he makes some interesting points.
the french could possibly
just be having an off period. “Off” as in they suck recently. Look at the american males in tennis the last ten years. I guess they’ve done a little better than the french cyclists, but not very good for such a sports oriented and rich country with a great tennis tradition. I think the american tennis community is definitely wringing their hands. If not for the williams sisters on the women’s side the americans would be in quite a serious drought.
I think
The French should start cultivating cycling talent like they did with soccer talent. France is bigger in population than Spain and Italy and has a cycling tradition so there should be enough potential. The only other factor you need is suitable terrain to discover and train cycling talent. The absence of this factor in the Netherlands is one of the big hindrances to Dutch cycling IMHO. French has mountains of course but (I might be completely wrong here) they seem to be around the edges of the country. The populated areas are mostly relatively flat. Could that be an explaining factor? I think mountains or hills are more prevalent in both Spain and Italy. Belgium has a fair share of hellingen too. In Holland we have to make do with the ones in the AGR (and that really is all we have).
nah,
don’t think you’re right about the mountains thing in france. Marseille (2nd biggest city is not far at all from the Ventoux), Toulouse (4th biggest city?) is right there next to the pyrenees, Nice (5th largest) has absolutely tons of climbing all around – not much flat around here (and lots of population around here outside of Nice as well). That leaves Bordeaux and Paris – flat. Then there’s brittany and the north – flat too for the most part. But then why can’t they just do whatever the belgians do up there? Hell they even drink beer, have crap weather and lots of wind. No excuses!
I don’t know anything about their programs or attempts at developing talent – or whether there (their for frinkster) is any truth to them being cleaner or not. They sure are having a dry spell though.
Conservatism
I have no doubt this is the main factor. Antidoping and problems with having to compete with other sports for talents could play a role too but I’m convinced it is their unwillingness to give up their old school training and tactics (that were once successful) that are the root of the problem.
Every rider who has moved from a french team says the same thing basically: “nice team, I really enjoyed my time , good people BUT on this new team everything is more professional/modern. Training methods, physio, logistics, strategy, raceschedule and so on”. Pretty hard not to see the pattern.
Moreover, it is my opinion that Alejandro Valverde is an asshole who should not be allowed to compete in bikeraces right now.
and Lyon area
arguably the 2nd city (versus Marseilles)
has mountains everywhere
formerly known as cyclingchallenge
Appeal of other sports
Part of it is that other sports are drawing French juniors – tennis and football in particular. I’m guessing this is partly the long shadow of Festina, and the lingering perception that doping is required to compete. That said, there are some talented U23s coming up in France – whether they turn out to be talented pros remains to be seen, of course.
"The French should start cultivating cycling talent like they did with soccer talent"
Because what we need are more headbutts to Italians in the bunch sprints.
There is at least a grain of truth
and we can argue the size of the grain (tiny or larger)
that the French have recently been “cleaner” than other countries.
OK, I am done representing the French media
formerly known as cyclingchallenge
All this statistics make me fell like I'm attending Peloton University.
It’s a lot more intelligent stuff than what most of the cyclc commentators have to say so why not feed them this data to read and analyze when “nothing’s happening” to see how they screw that up
Mon coeur appartient à les forçats de la route.
Italian success...
According to a study done in Europe and reported in Le Figaro, Europeans consider Italians to be the biggest cheats in both business and sports. The shocking part of the survey is that Italians themselves, when asked, consider Italians to be the biggest cheaters in Europe. Either A) Italians direct more of their top athletes into cycling than other countries; B) Italian cyclists are more genetically gifted and train better; or C) they are better/bigger cheaters.
Survey says: C.
I can fully believe that
And I’d hazard a guess that the Greeks came second.
Belgians
(to generalize)
see themselves as more fun and less rule oriented than their neighbours …. the Italians of the north …. seriously ;)
formerly known as cyclingchallenge
And we see where that got Tommeke last year...
"Sean Kelly? Sorry, I am not so good with cycling history. I just want to race." --Edvald Boasson Hagen
It's just a mindset thing
I’ve noticed it out there, how they are very honest about being dishonest. They rarely try to rip you off face-to-face, one-to-one, but just about everything they do has an element of hiding it from the authorities and the higher-ups about it. They don’t cheat you, they conspire with you to cheat someone else.
I meant the Italians
the Spanish have the Anglo-Saxon anyone’s fair game attitude.
this
Italians themselves, when asked, consider Italians to be the biggest cheaters in Europe.
just made my night – thanks!
by plinytheelder on Apr 16, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Cheating survey rankings by country
Is cheating at sports common in your country (% who responded yes)?
1. Italy 76%
2. France 71%
3. Germany 64%
4. Belgium 63%
5. Sweden 60%
6. Spain 56%
7. Netherlands 54%
The stats for which country cheats the most when respondents were asked about other countries are buried in a chart somewhere in my office. The above = responses by people about their own countries and doesn’t include Turkey (86%) or Russia (56%). As I recall, when asked about other countries, Italy was still #1 and France dropped some. In other words, the French and Italians are cynical about themselves, but the Italians are the consensus #1 when it comes to their image as cheaters. Ricco! Ricco!
spain
im researching spanish regional nationalism and cycling for my phd – you could at leasthaveincluded basque and catalan as categories!
Just reporting what was reported in Le Figaro
they didn’t include any break down by region…
True, though, for cycling that’s a huge issue… in fact, you could argue that regionalism may trump nationalism among European cycling fans (note all the regional flags, and the lack of national ones along the route).
by SportsAcademic on Apr 17, 2009 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah I even saw a flag of Brittany during P-R
who’s the Breton, are there even any?
Sorry, are their even any?
by plinytheelder on Apr 17, 2009 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey
There’s a Wikipedia entry for everything. Can’t say I recognize most of the names, but a couple who were in P-R this year are Sebastien Hinault and Frederic Guesdon.
"Sean Kelly? Sorry, I am not so good with cycling history. I just want to race." --Edvald Boasson Hagen
wow that's amazing
must be supporting Guesdon I guess?
by plinytheelder on Apr 18, 2009 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions

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