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Romandie Stage 1: Over the Jaunpass [Update: not!]

Update -- Stage shortened due to snow; no Jaunpass.

The more I think about this stage, the more I wonder if the race isn't going to be made right out of the gate. Stage 1 didn't jump out as a massive one when I first looked at it, but here are a few things to consider. First, it's the longest stage of the race, although 176km isn't going to set any records. Secondly, though the climb comes 70km from the line and the remainder of the race is a net descent, there is a strong possibility that the race won't simply come back together. Take a gander:

Profile1_medium

Mountains may not decide the race if they come in the middle and are followed by flats. If the pack came off the Jaunpass in splinters, then did 40km of flat roads, whatever large peloton behind would probably pin back much of the gaps. A small, elite bunch of climbers grinding away on the flats would probably spend too much time looking at each other to make the most of their advantage.

But that's not the case here. However unreadable profiles may be, we can see that there is maybe 10km of serious descending, followed by some rolling roads for a while, before the climbing starts again. These aren't optimal conditions for a large group to chase back the stage leaders, particularly if the former couldn't hang with the latter on the climbs to begin with. The right group of climbers, with some workers in tow, can get away and stay there.

The first place to look is Caisse d'Epargne. Alejandro Valverde won't be dropped on this climb, it's not that steep (from what I gather), and Valverde will undoubtedly bring a teammate or two along from his gang of veteran helpers. Next, Cadel Evans will likely be there, and can count on Jurgen Van Den Broeck for help. Liquigas should have Roman Kreuziger involved, and maybe Szmyd or Zaugg to help. Euskaltel could have half a dozen guys in there. FdJ another four. You get the picture.

Chances are, the non-climbers will see their chances disappear tomorrow. Whether the climbers whittle down things more seriously depends on how hard they make the race. There's a fair chance that the final selection will be really, really small. One thing I can say: CN's mention that Robbie McEwen will be looking to win here again sounds patently ridiculous. But I agree with one thing they said, that the random breakaways won't be allowed to capture the GC. The big boys will come out, methinks.

Use this as the live race thread, at least the first one. Should be fun!

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Climb details

from Reidencbach the last 8.5 kms of Jaunpass climbs 635 metres – about 7.5% average with one full km at 9.5%

It must have snowed a little at the summit last night – 1509 metres so anyone disliking wet and cold will hate today.

Separately, tsr.ch mentioned that the end of the stage will feature the steep cobbled stretch “La Lorette” entering Fribourg, although I can’t find anything else that mentions this.

But if true, this youtube video from 2007 Tour de Suisse will show that belgium is not the only place with super steep cobbles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_nIM3uFxy8

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 4:01 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Cobblestoned La Lorette is confirmed .... the finish tday will be amazing
la ville de Fribourg est à nouveau dans la course et accueillera le peloton le 29 avril 2009 pour une arrivée d’étape qui s’annonce d’ores et déjà passionnante avec la montée mythique de Lorette.

Badly tranlated:
“The town of Fribourg is again in the race and will welcome the peloton April 29h for a finish that already announces itself to be passionate with the mythic climb of Lorette”

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 4:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My math sucks

The last 8.5 kms climbs more than 660 metres – making it almost 8% avg.

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 4:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, the road is made of stones

but are they cobbles? They look rather flat to me, no horrible bouncing visible. Still a good finish of course!

by tedvdw on Apr 29, 2009 5:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I defer to belgiums re cobblestone

but they look like cobblestones to me
 
and from offical site:

qui empruntera la fameuse montée pavée de Lorette et ses 18% de dénivellation.

“That will share the famous cobblestoned climb of Lorette and its 18% slopes”

pavée = cobblestones? I think

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 7:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure

But this looks more like Espace Crupelandt than Trouée d’Arenberg. More Cittadella di Bergamo than Koppenberg. Hey like I said, no need to diminish this finish, the citadel climb is hard too.

by tedvdw on Apr 29, 2009 7:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

heheh

I am sure you are correct.

It is against Swiss sensibilities to have roads that are too bumpy ;)

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And voting rights for women

but you guys are loosing it. :(

by OctaBech on Apr 29, 2009 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

to be clear ;)

I am not swiss and I am in favour of women voting ;)

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I remember seeing a mountain finish years ago in the Tour

where some spectator in a polka dot jersey jumped over the barriers and rode the last k to the finish line without being spotted by the marshalls. We expect nothing less of the Marmotte spotted one.

by Monty. on Apr 29, 2009 4:46 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Jaun Pass

Is not as easy at is appears….there’s a kilometer of near on 13% gradient about 3/4 up, and, as mention above….i seem to also remember the ave being around or just over 8%. Should be interesting…shame it won’t be televised.

by bradBordeaux on Apr 29, 2009 4:55 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

PS.

I have some photos, if someone can tell me how to put them in a post

by bradBordeaux on Apr 29, 2009 4:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hit reply

then click the little “image” icon, then insert the url of the image

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 4:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You might have to put them on Flickr or something similar first

Can’t do it straigth from your own hard disk for obvious reasons.

"Non-cyclists. The emptiness of those lives shocks me." Tim Krabbé

by Lopex on Apr 29, 2009 5:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

All right, so much for building up the excitement ...

Course shortened due to snowfall in the mountains.

by tedvdw on Apr 29, 2009 5:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

From Twitter

http://twitter.com/kmoerenhout/statuses/1647528152 “Today’s stage shortened because of snow. Back to hotel, start at 15.00.”
http://twitter.com/CadelOfficial/statuses/1647529412 “Another late start here in Romandie. Snow has forced a course diversion; a long wait for a fast intense stage for us.”
http://twitter.com/christianmeier/statuses/1647532426 “Start of stage one delayed and shortened due to snow at higher altitudes, should be a sprint for Tyler and a bit more recovery time for me..”

by tedvdw on Apr 29, 2009 5:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One more

http://twitter.com/louderjeff/statuses/1647535395 “Romandie St. 1 delayed and shortened due to snow on Col du Jaun. Looks like ~80k of fury starting at 3:00. Good thing I did that 3k opener.”

by tedvdw on Apr 29, 2009 5:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And another

http://twitter.com/wegelius/statuses/1647726870 “Stage shortened. We have come to nearby uci centre in aigle to eat. Very nice track they have here.”

OK, I’m done playing Twitter RSS feed.

by tedvdw on Apr 29, 2009 6:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good old Charlie

I’m glad he’s riding the Giro again, he was always good for a snarky comment or two in the morning.

by Monty. on Apr 29, 2009 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Allen Lim on Twitter:
Sometimes I feel like twitter is my neglected Chia Pet. Just more clutter? Hmmm…

I brake on descents

by nicknorco on Apr 29, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rebellin positive @ Olympic Games!

No-one has seen this yet?! Got to be posted on Podium Cafe!

by Reeppp on Apr 29, 2009 5:48 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Ah

Never mind, allready a post… lol

by Reeppp on Apr 29, 2009 6:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He does have a very fitting avatar!

"Non-cyclists. The emptiness of those lives shocks me." Tim Krabbé

by Lopex on Apr 29, 2009 6:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Route changed due to snow

Because of snow on top of the Jaunpass / Col de Jaun today’s route has changed.
Only 80km left and start is at 15:00h.

by FrankV on Apr 29, 2009 5:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

OK Will, this does NOT get you off the hook

we fully expect you to ride the stage anyway. We’ve seen you riding in the snow before so don’t try using that old excuse.

by Jens on Apr 29, 2009 6:49 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Where is everyone? Jaunpass is deserted?

(kidding)

ok they blinked before me, I was in gas station on way and heard on radio about the cancellation (phew …. very stormy but had my balaclava packed)

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 7:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Allright, let's focus on the race now

Valverde or Freire might wanna take the stage win and leader jersey today. I put my money on Freire

by Reeppp on Apr 29, 2009 7:02 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

yes i agree Freire can set a win for Rabobank…if i look on the profile of last 3km posted on steephill website it seems to be absolutely flat….on the other hand i am reading about cobblestone finish in Fribourg…do you know something more about the finish of this stage?

by Jugi on Apr 29, 2009 8:09 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

So what is the course like now then?

Do they just start after the Jaunpass and miss out all the first section?

by Albertina on Apr 29, 2009 8:26 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No, same start and finish but shortcut

http://tdr.label.ch/main/actualite/actualites/index.lbl?uid=A43F270A-02E2-4C10-8FAA-66EA20350805

la Direction (…) a décidé de raccourcir de moitié la première étape de ce 63ème Tour de Romandie qui passera donc de 176,2 km à 87,6 km.
 
En conséquence, le départ, prévu à 12h35 sur la place du Marché de Montreux a été repoussé à 15h00. Le parcours évitera donc toute la partie comportant notamment le Col du Jaun de 1ère Catégorie culminant à 1.508 mètres et se rendra directement de la ville de Bulle à Broc pour gagner ensuite Fribourg où l’arrivée reste prévue après 17h00.

The original route over the Jaunpass almost backs onto itself so they just cut that loop. See http://tdr.label.ch/main/course/parcours-etapes/villes-tapes-du-tour/

by tedvdw on Apr 29, 2009 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, that's annoying... bunch of wimps... ride in the snow...

"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind

by umwolverine on Apr 29, 2009 8:41 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

oh well, asturias stage 2 streaming is at 15.15 local

"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind

by umwolverine on Apr 29, 2009 8:43 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

La Lorrette finish

does anybody know how far from the finish line is this famous La Lorrette cobblestone uphill climbing?

by Jugi on Apr 29, 2009 8:45 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

wow

he took his feet warmers off while riding

I can barely do it sitting down

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 10:24 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

So what's up then?

Breakaway of three….Rast and two others…the captions are too fuzzy to read!

by Albertina on Apr 29, 2009 10:25 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Dangit

I spent a lot of energy last night getting really excited about this stage.

One of the benefits of the Tour: you never wake up to find the stage has been lopped off.

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 10:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Does the TdR

usually avoid these mountains due to the snow?

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Most big passes are closed always this time of year

so I think they sometimes uses lower ski stations as they are ploughed like the mountain stage last year at
Zinal

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tour: you never wake up to find the stage has been lopped off.

Col d’Iseran 1996 was snowed out ;)

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I knew

someone would come up with one. But it’s rare, compared to the Giro.

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure!

Remember, the Vuelta used to be in April.

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Columbia

doing what they do, pulling back a break in a reasonably but not too hard stage.

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 10:31 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

But who knows?

Maybe Rebellin got a job on Wall Street or Bloomies, bought a smart bungalow in the suburbs and plans on taking the commuter train? THAT would be a twist now.

by ursula on Apr 29, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why not

He could do just as well as the muppets we got runnin Wall Street as it is…

by bradBordeaux on Apr 29, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know it's all Rabon's fault.

The shortening of the stage I mean.

Where did he last win a TT? Murcia- which had a shortened stage too.

by ursula on Apr 29, 2009 10:33 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

onto the fribourg loop

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 10:37 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Swooosh!

Now I’m not saying anything at all bad about the spring racing here but…

It’s nice seeing these swooping descents on these faster wide roads after a spring of narrow donkey paths. Change of pace I guess.

by ursula on Apr 29, 2009 10:40 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

here are the cobbles

Lorette

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 10:40 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Brian likes their chances

Tough place to pin back a small break on these winding roads.

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 10:40 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Col de Lorette!

Ouch. Are those loose cobbles??

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 10:41 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

2.52

Presumably they aren’t about to blow up. It’s only what, 60km?

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 10:42 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

What a day....

5 hours in the saddle, new VeloMagazine arrived, Romadie, and Champions League tonight…..

by bradBordeaux on Apr 29, 2009 10:47 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Barca-Chelsea?

Haven’t seen a score

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

chelsea haters ;)

come on you blues

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

me

I don’t like any of the 3 English sides in it….

by rbjhan on Apr 29, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am so glad

I didn’t invest a second in that match.

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am so glad

my champions league this year finished at the quarters.
so I don’t have to get up at 4:30 am anymore!

by rbjhan on Apr 29, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

plus

might be just the way against Barca
try to play football with them, will get pass off the pitch

by rbjhan on Apr 29, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

goin to be Manu unfortunately

as long as it isn’t an all English final

my brother in law is the Chief of Operations at the NeuCamp

hopefully tickets for the final

by bradBordeaux on Apr 29, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

saw a game there once

last row in the corner …. fun stadium

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I kinda want MANU to be in the final

but for some different reasons….

by rbjhan on Apr 29, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Manu-Barca

That’s a CL final

by bradBordeaux on Apr 29, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...

well Barca couldn’t get past Chelsea’s defense yesterday. I doubt that they would make too much of a dent into Man U.

by Vlaanderen90 on Apr 29, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Elite chase group

I’m not convinced yet.

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 10:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

wow serious clouds

they are getting lucky as there has been some serious rain/snow around

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 10:55 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

1.44

15km to go

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 10:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

12 km

1’28"

closing a little

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 11:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Oops

my feed is a tad slow. Lame computer…

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK

I won’t scream winner at the line ;)

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nah

go ahead. I’m on kid duty as it is.

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Euskies

drilling it on the front.

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 11:01 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hm

Wonder if they need any fish lawyers in the Freibourg region?

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 11:02 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

there was a big report today

on the quality of water in lake geneva

and people eat the Perch

(does that help?)

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes!

Pack up the kids! I’m on my way!

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

unfortunately (?!)

the water quality has really improved ;(

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perch? Ruthann and I like Perch.

I think her and I need to go test the quality of this. We will do it in the name of Cafe research. :-)

I love C, not because he rocks as a cyclist, but because deep down he's a band geek! LOL!

by nikki on Apr 29, 2009 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And

Brian debunks Global Warming, thanks to the snowstorm. Bad form!

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 11:04 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

52"

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 11:07 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Even with those ominous clouds

it’s still so pretty… wish I was there.

by Le Comte on Apr 29, 2009 11:08 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

no room for leaders

to play games

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 11:09 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Gap dropping

The leaders will have to have some wattage to spare when they hit the cobbles again.

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 11:10 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

34

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 11:10 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

+1

too far to go with just 2k left…

by Le Comte on Apr 29, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

flamme rouge here

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 11:13 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Tony Martin goes

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 11:13 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

wow nice

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 11:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

didn't want to give away ;)

for the laggers

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

stream slowing to a crawl.

Goddammit.

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 11:15 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Make that

stopped. WTF?

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rast takes yellow

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 11:17 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Oh good

I missed the finish. Stupid CTV. Why does the stream suddenly slow on the low setting at the end of the race?

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 11:18 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Play with the timeline thing on the bottom of the vid when that happens

If I click just before or after the current position it usually goes ok. By the way, if you had wanted to see what good internet TV was if you watched the Masters Golf on masters.org. High res, really sharp, real pic in picture (you could pic what you wanted) and no stuttering for hours.

by Markk on Apr 29, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I tried

moving the cursor back and forth to different points in the vid. The stream just stopped loading. Yay!

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

VDS

Serrano 40 points
Bak 25
Rast 10 + 6 for the yellow jersey= 16

by ursula on Apr 29, 2009 11:19 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

grupetto arriving

5’37" back

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 11:20 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't mind me some Serrano right now

Yes, I mean the ham

Oh my, I've just fallen in love with Roger De Vlaeminck's sideburns.

by TheFigurehead on Apr 29, 2009 11:44 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

From CN:

1 Ricardo Serrano Gonzalez (Spa) Fuji-Servetto 2.08.35
2 Lars Ytting Bak (Den) Team Saxo Bank
3 Gregory Rast (Swi) Astana
4 Tony Martin (Ger) Team Columbia – Highroad 0.28
5 Haimar Zubeldia Agirre (Spa) Astana
6 Koldo Fernandez De Larrea (Spa) Euskaltel – Euskadi 0.31
7 Jacopo Guarnieri (Ita) Liquigas
8 Tyler Farrar (USA) Garmin – Slipstream
9 Markus Zberg (Swi) BMC Racing Team
10 Michael Schär (Swi) Astana
 
General classification after stage 1
 
1 Gregory Rast (Swi) Astana

by Albertina on Apr 29, 2009 11:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

So what are the chances this happens Saturday?

I see the finish town is almost as high as the final mountain, so if they are able to get into Saint Croix they should be able to go over the climbs hopefully. If not, the Tour will be decided on the TTT and no were else, which would suck.

In Chauncey we trust!

by Phil H. on Apr 29, 2009 12:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Higher, actually

As to the weather… we wait.

CQRanking.com, you complete me.

by Chris... on Apr 29, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Checked the weather in Saint Croix

it is expected to RAIN on Saturday, which means no SNOW, so I’m optimistic about the stage happening as planned.

In Chauncey we trust!

by Phil H. on Apr 29, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

weather looks a lot better

and the other climbs are less high hopeful

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 2:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Interesting comment by the new yellow jersey leader

He said that he spoke with the other two in break group and they let him win the intermediate sprints – if he didn’t contest the KOMs. And the time bonus pretty much locked him the jersey.

formerly known as cyclingchallenge

by Willj on Apr 29, 2009 2:36 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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