Monte Petrano: Post-Stage Thread
by Chris Fontecchio on May 25, 2009 11:15 AM EDT
in Live Races
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Sastre Smackdown... but just a glancing blow to Menchov. Levi dead and buried. Great racing today, everything we expected.
- Carlos Sastre, Cervelo
- Denis Menchov, at 0.25
- Danilo Di Luca, at 0.26?
- Ivan Basso
- Stefano Garzelli
- Masciarelli
- Franco Pellizotti
- Tadej Valjavec, AG2R
- Lance Armstrong, Astana, at 2.50
- Levi Leipheimer, Astana, s.t.
And the current GC:
- Menchov
- Di Luca, at 39"
- Sastre, at 2.19
- Pellizotti, at 3.08
- Basso, at 3.19
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the other look
superb stuff. really happy for sastre, this makes the last mountain stages ultra-competitive..
'you want to say your feelings and if you let your emotions pour out it shows how much the sport means to you. and cycling means everything to me.'- mark cavendish
Might as well get one myself since Levi won't
Thinking hard - really hard - of something witty to say....
Post-race thread podium, that is.
Thinking hard - really hard - of something witty to say....
by Cyclingrush on May 25, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, why?
what’s not to like?
'you want to say your feelings and if you let your emotions pour out it shows how much the sport means to you. and cycling means everything to me.'- mark cavendish
i don't think the press/commentators like him
The center of the bottom bracket is the center of the universe.
holy smoke....how can anyone hate Sastre?
on of the most kind, humble riders in the pro peleton!! riders love him and he is very fan friendly
i guess that rubs some people the wrong way
GO SASTRE!!!!!
The center of the bottom bracket is the center of the universe.
not sure where you get that the press don;t like him
I have yet to meet a press member that feels that way…..hmmmm
Have a great time at the race today!!!
Say hi and hugs for all! :-)
I love C, not because he rocks as a cyclist, but because deep down he's a band geek! LOL!
haven't met any press members
but it seems that he never gets the coverage he deserves. no offense against individual press members.
The center of the bottom bracket is the center of the universe.
Not getting coverage and not liking, very different things.
I love C, not because he rocks as a cyclist, but because deep down he's a band geek! LOL!
true, but
to the viewer/reader we don’t hear much about him given his outstanding accomplishments. press members have even written that he didn’t deserve the tour win last year. i love sastre for many reasons. it’s my perception the press doesn’t give him the respect he deserves.
The center of the bottom bracket is the center of the universe.
Not just the press
Without turning this into a VDS thread, I’ll bet that not many people picked him for their team this year. Most of us wrongly reckoned that he was on the strongest team at last year’s Tour, and just happened to make the move that stuck.
Would have been nice with someone to occupy Menchov though
And when that’s said, it’s completely true that the strength of the team mean nothing if the GC guy can’t finish the job.
exactly Lyne...as I have no problems reading about Sastre in the Euro sites
Velonews does not cover Euro teams very well
The Spaniards are fairly keen on him
everywhere else he gets as much coverage as he gets in Velonews
Totally agree.
I’ve often hoped for more attacking from him but he’s stepped that up. I am so with him! Good win for him today!
I love C, not because he rocks as a cyclist, but because deep down he's a band geek! LOL!
WTF was Di Luca doing working for Menchov?
Should have sat on Denis, forced him to work and jumped him in the final km. Instead he got outsprinted by Menchov. Tactical blunder by the Killer,
You still don't work for the Maglia Rosa when you have 2 minutes on the guy in front.
You take your chance to make him work.
pretty much what he said in his post-race interview
Was building the gap to lippy, and not letting sastre take his lunch money.
Also, it isn’t necessarily on the race leader to do the chasing. Usually the guy whose GC position is at risk by the attack up the road – ie, Sastre – chases. So, Diluca was working.
thanks for the translation,
I was wondering what he was saying. Did he say anything about the coming stages?
"we'll see"
LOL, lots of we’ll see what happens. He admitted that it would be hard to overcome menchov.
Didn't he say he needed a bad day from Menchov?
Sorry, dropped in when Diluca was already talking. Also, Menchov said Blockhaus was the most important stage to come, expected much less from Vesuvius.
The Universal Announces seems to not think
Sastre is still in it. I wouldn’t be so sure, with next several days.
Long haul back
But he’s in it. The problem is, Menchov is just so strong…
Abruzziamo!
by Chris Fontecchio on May 25, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
wonder what lance could have done
if he didn’t have to tow levi up to the line. He looked like he really had it today.
Great ride by Sastre!
Agreed.
He showed some spring in those legs. Criticize him for not immediately falling back to Levi if you want, but it isn’t part of his DNA. His instinct was to follow the leaders, and it looked like he could have. That killer instinct is what made him so dominant, and the lack thereof is why Levi ain’t a team leader.
I agree he doesn't have the instincts of a domestique
but because they’re playing constant “bait and switch” with his role (just training? Super domestique? Stage hunting?) we also don’t know if he currently has anything BUT the instincts to be a contender. I understand that a lot of fans might feel bad if he busted his ass and still lost badly, but somehow I’d find that more interesting and laudable. Ditto being a top notch domestique (which is so, so much more than carrying water bottles and occasionally dropping bach to take a pull).
stage victory
I kind of wonder now that Levi is really out of it GC wise whether Armstrong will attack with the leaders on the last two mountain finishes to go for a stage victory. I think this would be a great barometer for what he still has and what we can look forward to in the tour.
eurosport saying
sastre is at 2"19, di luca at 39"
'you want to say your feelings and if you let your emotions pour out it shows how much the sport means to you. and cycling means everything to me.'- mark cavendish
Today's topic must be
Why do professional commentators keep falling for Sastre’s sandbagging? I swear they’ve been caught by surprise every single time since ’06.
yep
He doesn’t get a lot of attention in the US press at all, but everywhere else they take him pretty seriously. For the Giro, it helps that he speaks fluent Italian and used to ride with Basso.
exactly Gav...I am having no problems reading about him at my usual spanish sites
I highly suggest as.com for Sastre updates (smile)
….and many have him as a serious threat.
:-(
I shall atone for my sins by spending a whole hour on it at lunchtime. This is a tough punishment but I shall bear it with fortitude ;-)
Adrenalina Italiana!
Is this all starting to sound eerily familiar?
Cycling fans have started a campaign to collect signatures in support of Alejandro Valverde, who was accused of doping by the Italian Olympic Committee (CONI), and sent to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) to prove the innocence of the rider from Murcia. This group, which has the backing of the Cycling Federation of Murcia and own cycling team Caisse d’’Epargne, attended last week in the Volta a Catalunya shirts that were printed with the message "All with Valverde. "
Leave Alejandro alone!
Bork, bork, bork!
by TheFigurehead on May 26, 2009 7:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Keep those lawsuits coming baby
He’s out of this year’s Tour right now because of the Italian ban, but if he drags things out for another few months then the worldwide ban might not keep him out of the two after that.
lyne....I remember when he mentioned the Giro at the press thingy we attended
We were surprised…but very pleased…such a wonderful rider.
You called it chica….you said if he rides he should be considered a fav! Good call Lyne.
Was bossman trying to kill us - almost 600 comments. Whew.
I love C, not because he rocks as a cyclist, but because deep down he's a band geek! LOL!
Great riding by Sastre today.
Great job by Menchov too for limiting any time loss. :-)
I love C, not because he rocks as a cyclist, but because deep down he's a band geek! LOL!
Have a great Memorial Day Ruthann!
Weekend visit for the Tour? Up for it?!?!
I love C, not because he rocks as a cyclist, but because deep down he's a band geek! LOL!
Awesome!
We can have our own mini PdC party!
I love C, not because he rocks as a cyclist, but because deep down he's a band geek! LOL!
I wonder of Lance was told to wait
or decided to wait
or wasn’t feeling that strong
formerly known as cyclingchallenge
To me that wat the real story
I think he served notice for le tour.
lol
agree but it didn’ look like he wanted to wait …. he certainly looked selfish for a while
then something changed (maybe Johan in ear, or lactic acid in legs)
formerly known as cyclingchallenge
Hi tide for Menchov
Just an impressively strong and smart race. Kudos! He’s in the dirvers seat now,, especially since his main rival in the closing TT, Levi, demonstrated how he’s not a team leader.
first time
i’ve really cheered for Sastre, but have to respect that win. good thing i like so many of his teammates – makes it easier :)
Menchov was smart, once again – such a great rider to watch when he keeps his wits about him.
also good to see Seeldrayers move up (no offence to Lokvist).
Pauwels in the Sporza booth
Sastre must have been very strong. Sastre asked him to pull at the base of the climb. Pauwels had to look back a few times but Sastre used his preferred tactic by coming from behind.
Yesterday’s problems: communication trouble, no TV in the follow car, Pauwels had trouble imagining what the situation really was. (and what they were thinking…)
Pauwels publicly following the party line as well
Everything under control in the Republic of CTT. Day after tomorrow, atomic bomb testing on the Blockhaus.
i dig when sastre does that.
Sitting at the back, looking at what everyone else is up to. Nerves of steel on that guy.
indeed
Bit of bluff game there with Diluca. And Diluca ended up working – not much choice in it, since Sastre was knocking on Diluca’s gc position.
yup Menchov looked really strong
didn’t panic, kept on going at his pace and matched DiLuca and then made his work. I think he just won the Giro today.
I keep thinking how devastated he looked the day they busted the chicken
deep, deep betrayal
The team seems to count on him, but not really make him one of the guys—like he’s in permanent guest worker status. So each win is a huge vindication of all that sh*t. (Apologies to the Dutch guys if I’m reading that wrong, but he FINALLY seems to have true support in the younger, newer Rabo riders, and I have to think that’s making a difference.)
+1
Hard to forget the image of him coming to a standstill on the mountain side after pulling on the front for miles that year – just to see chicken thrown out the race.
Cunego may be riding indifferently at the moment but his comments in the pro cycling guide to the giro always interesting.
For Blockhaus he says “Bizarre stage..usually after a race day you can use the first hour or two to get back into the swing…. I just hope it’s not a bunfight from kilometre zero”.
I see him hanging on on Vesuvius – Blockhaus maybe his last big hurdle to victory.
At the start of the year Rabo were making a big deal out of the newly found team spirit
Seems to have turned for the better for Menchov, yes.
Don't agree.. The support for Rasmussen were much stronger and he already won the Vuelta 2 times..
Menchov without a team had, for the tem he had, a tremendous help..
Crashdan: "Veni Vidi Vici beats Wing Kong Exchange... … and I’ll change my signature to a backwards smile for a month."
Franzoi wins Parijs-Roubaix and I win a date with the VDS of Team Txirrindulariak..
I was under the impression
That Rabobank brought in Menchov to be team leader. But after a single terrible tour, they felt he was not good enough. So they instead started grooming Rasmussen for leader, and eventually had Menchov be Rasmussen’s super-domestique for the Tour.
I had the feeling he’d more generally been partially demoted to “the guy who’s welcome to hunt for stage wins or the overall, but he doesn’t get support.” He was leader for the Vueltas, but that’s the GT with the least respect. He was also sort of caught between stage hunting and being a GC man. And one of those wins was a “we changed the record books because someone was doping.” Sort of robs the sense of accomplishment. So was he underappreciated and therefore not blooming fully? Just as easily, you could say that he wasn’t worth so much when he started, and Rabobank gave him time to mature and integrate.
Mind you, if you’re not a fly on the wall when the contracts happen, or the discussions go down, it’s all secondhand speculation. It’s often unclear from outside who’s the leader with support and who’s the free agent. I didn’t sense much warmth / camaraderie around him and the older team members, but again, that could be personality as much as anything.
I wasn’t claiming that the team members were doing a bad job on the road, BTW. But it’s hard to replace that extra boost that you get from wanting to do right by your team because your teammates are special to you. Or it might be a question of style and pace. Having someone in the train who matches you very well in style must help, right? Don’t know if it’s Ten Dam, or what. Or feeling bad about Horillo. But somehow, Menchov and the team are finally in the groove.
Ras was never groomed as a leader
Menchov was always the captain, Ras had some freedom to chase stages and polkadots. Ras then rode himself into such a good position (how did he do it?) while Menchov looked like he wasn’t up there with the other favourites. Rabo then threw their support behind Ras and his yellow jersey. What else could they do?
I agree
At the start of that tour menchov was captain, and chicken unanimous favourite for another KOM. ( I still have the cycling mag where Jens! said as much – and he cannot lie!) On the stage Linus won chicken spent the whole day with his hands on the top of the bars looking furious he’d missed the move. The next day went ballistic, and Rabo led the race the race for another ten stages. (Chicken had his own plan i reckon – that the team found out about) Menchov played the game til he hit a standstill. Was part of the Rabo line of Dekker, Boogerd, Menchov – as intimidating a lineup that year’s tour could muster – that took the race to the last climb. (But did leave the race iirc.) 6 weeks later won the Vuelta without team help in wk 1 (needed Piepoli as a domestique as i recall). Once in the lead – held on grimly (with some team help) just as he is doing now.
My heroes of the day – Ardila and Ten Dam – what Menchov has never had before.
Still think riding in the wind that tour made him a man. His perfomances thereafter much better.
Don't forget Kozontschuk.. He was doing a superb job on one climb.. Bringing back the group to 40 men
Crashdan: "Veni Vidi Vici beats Wing Kong Exchange... … and I’ll change my signature to a backwards smile for a month."
Franzoi wins Parijs-Roubaix and I win a date with the VDS of Team Txirrindulariak..
You're definetely reading it wrong
He is their GC hopeful for years now. The thing is that Rabo has just started learning about being a succesful GC-team. It started with Menchov’s Vuelta wins and then the supporting of the Chicken made them realise they could really play that game. Allthough it must be said that the chicken had the best Rabo support team by far.
"Non-cyclists. The emptiness of those lives shocks me." Tim Krabbé
naw
carbon through and through. Have you seen that guy climb?
"Never swing a small stick. " Andy Hampsten
What an incredible stage!
Four GC contenders battling on a long climb to the finish line in the final week of a Grand Tour. And not just any GC contenders – four Grand Tour winners, as a matter of fact. When was the last time we had a chance to watch something like that?
Ô col Bayard, Ô Tourmalet, à côté du Galibier, vous êtes de la pale et vulgaire bibine !
Kept away, last live thread too long and LA bashing trolls too many
Whole new level of respect for Sastre, didn’t give him proper credit for Alpe last year, so here it is.
Menchov still unbeatable in my mind
Careful with the name calling there...
I didn’t see much of anything in that thread that wasn’t either praise for LA or fairly topical questions about the limits of his support for Levi. He didn’t seem to make much of an effort to help until the very last minute, which doesn’t exactly fit with the role of the super-domestique he’s supposed to be in this race. You wanna say he’s supposed to be above criticism? B/c if not, I’m trying to figure out where the “LA bashing trolls” were?
Oh yes thank you Ed, missed your praise of LA here...
comment: “they should have let Lance go”
Ed’s response: "As in fire him for being an egoistic f**K? " very topical
But in response to this overwhelming response about the “trolls” comment, it seems I did pop in when when people were twitching out about LA being out front when Levi went kaboom. And the other 500 and something comments were “as usual” stuff. But still I didn’t know the term troll was so offensive and I thought I saw more new names than I’d seen. Anyway just popped in and then out because the thread was bogging me down. Still don’t understand the overreaction to my comment, I mean really, did it look like I was fixated on the bashing?, no totally cool with most of it and I find many people’s jabs at LA to be very funny. I did notice that the heads of ELPMO were the ones to get bent out of shape though.
I took it for a joke on the ambiguity of the term "let go"
Along with the assumption that, if he is supposed to be a domestique, it had to be a breakdown in self control for him to be where he was, doing what he was doing.
It’s sort of plucky and cute in a kid who’s suddenly realized he’s a potential winner. It’s less cute when someone seasoned deserts their post. Of course, we don’t actually know what his agreed-upon role might be. Or if Levi waved him up.
I never said I'd praised LA.
But the point of what I was saying was topical criticism. I’ve been critical for several days of how he’s been riding vis a vis supporting Levi. And yes, I think its his ego getting in the way. If you think criticizing his performance in that regard is trolling, I have no idea what to say. He’s not a saint. Never was, never will be, and surely is not above criticism based on what he does or does not do. If you seriously can’t handle hearing that, I feel for you.
Well if you can't handle hearing troll, not even directed at you, then I feel the same for you
It wasn’t even meant towards you or anyone directly, read in context of my short comment it shouldn’t have been taken offensively by anyone, unlike EGOISTIC f**K. And even now after already clarifying myself you still chose to take it on as offensive. You’ve voiced your opinion on the matter and you’re not clearing anything up by dragging it on, you’re defending insults as topical criticism to which I have no idea what to say, but now stop twisting the f**K out of my words and intentions and insulting me.
How about making a rule where people can’t act like condescending f**Ks towards others. To my mind there’s nothing much more offensive then talking down to someone with comments like: “I feel (sorry) for you”.
Frankly, I'm not going to perpetuate this further by replying.
End of discussion as far as I’m concerned.
Reminder: we don't call people trolls here
if they are long time members and if they are respectful of the OTHER MEMBERS, regardless of how they feel about riders. Including riders that any of us love passionately. Nobody here logged on for the first time to bash Lance. A few people (I believe) did pop up for the first time to praise him. That’s great.
Look, a lot of us like Cunego. But he’s not doing great this year. In fact, he kinda sucks. And this gets pointed out. We don’t call it Cunego-bashing when that happens, or accuse people of being trolls. And, well, how much has Lance done for your VDS team this year, compared to Cunego?
Does that help your sense of perspective?
yeah that dude was awesome,
I was watching the English eurosport feed, that guy almost drew a laugh from Kelly, which is saying a lot! I just love these moments where the commentators are literally speechless for 5-10 sec.s
by plinytheelder on May 25, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
PS I agree menchov is looking really dialed in
and Sastre was stunning today
and I’m as curious as anyone what Lance can do. And impressed that he’s definitely playing a relevant role in a grand tour after so long an absence. But I find it mighty hard to assume that he could just, y’know, walk away with the queen stage if he were not shepherding Levi. And a bit hard to stomach assertions that he obviously COULD do so, just because he’s Lance and has fire in his eyes.
I hope not either...
But he is getting old, and I don’t see levi trying the Giro, Veulta, and Tour in the same year.
And Team EPIC will bring some coverage. Tee hee.
I love C, not because he rocks as a cyclist, but because deep down he's a band geek! LOL!
Yes. it was LL's last chance.
1. Lance would not have done anything on the stage today. He burnt his match getting back to the Menchov bunch. And then Sastre dropped the hammer on him. Repeatedly.
2. Leipheimer lacks the top-end to be a GT winner. He’s like a somewhat more powerful version of Bruse: a tt monster with the 0-60 acceleration of a fiat panda.
yea I figured it was like a Yugo
man just finished looking at some of the comepletely depressed and depleted looks on the faces of LL and LA in those last km’s
guess they’re not liking seeing their engines turn from V-8’s to whatever’s under the hood of a fiat panda
This was Levi's Last Stand...
At A GT.., Listen, he has a kick-ass team including a 7 time TdF champ at his disposal, the MAJOR player in his team was not there, he was within 1 minute of pink and looking good, and he carefully, methodically, strategically placed himself in the best possible position given his skills and abilities…
And just like every other GT he had a bad day…
1 week races? the guy is untouchable…TT’s one of the very best…
But its been said time and time again…To win a GT you MUST attack (be the Anti-Cadel as it were) and Levi- good as he is, ain’t got legs like that….
This was set up perfectly but you can’t beat genetics, or age, and he has not enough of the first and too much of the second. He’s done with GT’s
Still a superb rider, just not a GT winner. Sorry LL…Them’s the facts
Blockhaus seems like the race now.
If Menchov has his ‘bad day’ it could all change, but probably to DiLuca’s benefit, not Sastre’s.
If Menchov holds, it looks harder and harder to imagine how he loses.
The opposite is true for Menchov, he didn't race too much or too hard
He looks fresh as a daisy in mid morning dew
Basso
I tried but Sastre was stronger, Menchov and DiLuca held on well, but that’s how it goes.
Is this Giro finished?
We’ll see tomorrow: the day after there’s Blockhaus, then Vesuvio
Does Lance Now Stop Working For Levi?
Does Lance now stop working for Levi and go after a stage win on his own? Is Vesuvio a Lance stage, or Blockhaus?
which is what he's said he was doing here anyway...
well…depending who asked, and on what day of the week, or week of the month.
OK, maybe he’s making decisions day by day. Wish he’d say, “we’ll play it by ear.”
Couldn't TDF Training Mode Mean
A stage win though. Lance has to do something to get a new sponsor, and that would be big news in the states. If he won a stage most people in America will have thought he won the entire Giro.
Eh, don't underestimate what those stages take out of a person
A win on a stage like that isn’t on anyone’s training / prep schedule. Not to mention, he’s still healing, so it’s hard to imagine he’s in his top form.
My guess? He has to be in top form—peaking—to take a stage win like that, or to take any stage win and not have it be detrimental to his overall fitness. If he wants to peak for the tour, he’s not peaking here.
Perfectly glad to be wrong. But I don’t see it happening.
Yea, especially one of the mountain stages left
The remaining TT is short and worth giving it a go, but then there’s Menchov who’s absolutely on perfect form
I didn't want to say it, but after today I have to
Levi is done. He should take it easy and concentrate on the time trial at the end. That is still doable. Damn shame. Oh well, go Sastre!!!
If I just had one more gear, I...
I tend to agree...
…and oddly I find myself sad about it too, since I’m not typically a huge LL fan. But I’ve been really pulling for him here and to see him fall out of contention b/c of a flat like that, at just the wrong moment, just sucks.
going through twitter
both levi and mick said this was perhaps the hardest days racing they’ve ever had. unsurprising really, the heat was truly brutal- 46 degrees centigrade on the pavement according to rogers..
'you want to say your feelings and if you let your emotions pour out it shows how much the sport means to you. and cycling means everything to me.'- mark cavendish
grupetto - ouch
the last group of 60 riders finished at 48 minutes down, which is just over 8 hours of riding in that heat, ouch!
and completely devoid of culture
"I get paid to hurt other people. How good is that? How good is that?
I get paid to make other people suffer on my wheel, that's good." Jens!
brown rice pasta.... great stuff
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
like Asian pasta?
Isn’t Italian pasta a wheat thing? I thought the brown stuff was whole wheat pasta. But I know that Asian cooking uses a lot of rice based pastas.
Agree about whole wheat pasta. It’s good.
ack... whole wheat pasta is ick...
so so very heavy…
brown rice pasta is just that. pasta made brown rice and water.. no wheat…
there is also pasta made from corn, but i’ve never tried that…
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
I've read the threads
and I am so completely bummed to have missed what seems to be one of the best GT stages in the last years.
In the immortal words of the German 1994 World Cup-fans : “Scheisse!!!”
Well, yes =b
Watch the replay tonight, you won’t be sorry Jens.
ALRIGHT! THAT"S IT! I am placing an official moratorium on the use of the word "EPIC" to describe stages!!
Here are some alternatives:
Bigger than life
Bold
Classic
Courageous
Daring
Dauntless
Elevated
Fearless
Gallant
Grand
Gritty
Gutsy
Intrepid
Lion-hearted
Mythic
Noble
Valiant
C’mon! We’re cyclists! We are motivated, disciplined, highly educated, perfectionists! Lets raise the vocabulary standards above the ordinary shall we?
As you were…:-)
Glad I got that off my chest
+1
Hinault’s 1980 LBL win was epic. This was just a hard, hot stage with lots of GC fireworks. Fascinating stuff for sure, but still under epicness standards.
"Non-cyclists. The emptiness of those lives shocks me." Tim Krabbé
yeah I agree, I enjoyed the stage but it certainly wasn’t one of the all-time greats…maybe I’m missing something? not enough attacks, time gaps too insignificant, maglia rosa content to let others dictate the pace, etc etc etc. Don’t get me wrong, I really enjoyed it, but…
by plinytheelder on May 25, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Mick Rogers:
Just getting to the hotel now. 10.10pm. What an epic day
Bork, bork, bork!
by TheFigurehead on May 25, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
fair enough : but on the other hand
it looks easier on TV in an air conditioned room ;)
formerly known as cyclingchallenge
Garmin
Did anyone see any Garmin riders today anywhere????
Alpe Du Huez is my favorite place on earth!!!!!!
Speaking of Kicking Jens while he's down...
Young rider classification:
5 Thomas Lövkvist (Swe) Team Columbia – Highroad 17.02
I take back what I said about Universal Guy not realizing he had it sewn up. L’Ouch.
Big Astana blunder today
They had strange tactics and came out empty-handed. No stage win, no GC contender left, no teamwork. All this talk about the strongest team in the Giro and they showed nothing till now and won’t show much from now on. Maybe some stage-hunting by individuals but that’s it.
What happened? JB master plan backfiring? Low moral because of financial troubles? The LA factor?
"Non-cyclists. The emptiness of those lives shocks me." Tim Krabbé
Feels like too many cooks, to be honest.
Levi’s mechanical was devastating, to be sure, in its timing. But it seems like they’ve been burning resources and energy in a very unfocused way for awhile, and so when they needed cohesion and strength today, there was none.
Inthe soirit of kicking people when they are down
Is this a good time to open the discussion on “Johan Bruyneel- Master tactician”?
Based on what little I saw and what I’ve read I wonder if we shouldn’t dismantle that myth? Can it be that he only excels at shepherding the superior athlete to a well deserved win? Leading a team with a leader who is as good as , but not necessarily heads and shoulders above the competition, he doesn’t quite look like such an ace.
That or, they seem to have assumed that they could just bury everyone at will...
…we’re the strongest team, so we’ll just pound them into dust when we need to. But that hasn’t worked, in large measure because with the possible exception of Liquigas, nobody’s fallen for it. Astana has ridden brutal tempos at various points, and the others have sat in the peloton, followed along, and let Astana burn matches.
I wonder if its not people figuring out how to beat JB. Though I think you’re right that sans a pre-retirement on form LA or an AC, the JB strategy is much less likely to work.
Call it "Phil Jackson Syndrome"
As in “Sure, you have MJ/Shaq/Kobe, of COURSE you will win a bunch!” So JB has LA/RH(=/- doping) and AC so yeah, he wins a bunch….
That said, he does make some smart tactical moves- Sending Popo up the road was smart, having LA conserve energy last week was smart….having 5 ASTANAS in the bunch was smart…
But smart tactics don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that MJ.Shaq/Kobe Talent thing, and sorry kids, LL don’t got talent like that in week 3 of a 3 week GT- Especially when he clearly peaked for ToC in FEB!!
Give the man a break…What 11GT’s means that he can do SOMETHING right! (Maybe all he does is have an uncommon eye for talent and then knowing exactly where the limits of that talent lie)
Either way, do you think Marc Seareant from LOTTO would not give his right pinkie toe for JB’s tactical sense?
"phil jackson syndrome"
I can’t even get away from the mother fucking lakers on PdC? Shit just shoot me! Oh well, we’ll get them tonight!
In Chauncey we trust!
There's no doubt that he's put together a number of extremely strong teams...
…and that as in other sports, having the right personnel is critical to winning, period.
I think Jens’ question is a bit different though. What he seems to be calling into question is whether JB’s tactics are all that smart, or whether they’re more a matter of having a cohesive team follow the more or less obvious formula given the abilities of its members. In other words, is JB a really good manager, or a really good tactician? There may be a difference.
I'm not 100% sure myself, which is why I'm asking
I’ve always been slightly in awe of his strategy but I’m sort of wondering if he’s a one-trick-pony in the sense that he has one formula for winning. If the riders at his disposal don’t fit the mold exactly he seems to lack the ability to use Plan B.
Here's a specific:
letting Popovych stay up the road was a blunder at least as great as calling back Pauwels.
Maybe bigger, as things have turned out.
When he went after Cunego, I was thinking wtf? He’s only there to wait for the bridge from Leipheimer . . .
And why would he do that with Lance and Levi in the background.. It's not that he could limit the lost time of Levi
Crashdan: "Veni Vidi Vici beats Wing Kong Exchange... … and I’ll change my signature to a backwards smile for a month."
Franzoi wins Parijs-Roubaix and I win a date with the VDS of Team Txirrindulariak..
Disagree.
Even a pull for half a k would have saved a few seconds.
Or, he could have countered an attack or two. It probably wouldn’t have saved Levi’s chances, but there was no way that Bruyneel should have thought that Popovych’s time gap would hold up for the stage win.
even more to the point, they just didn't support LL today...
…token help. One rider to pace back up to MR group after he flatted. That’s it. He got nothing. He should have had several guys in a pace line pulling to get him up to the leaders. If he had anything left at all, they should have been breaking themselves to keep him in contention. And he should have had real protection the past several days, which he didn’t. How is it that LA, way down on GC and supposedly LL’s super domestique, especially once Horner withdrew, is having popo pace him up to main group yesterday. No way a domestique, any domestique, merits that kind of help.
And this seems awfully like the odd way that they all abandoned AC during Paris-Nice, which we were all commenting on at the time. They work together to be aggressive, but seem to have no concept of protecting a protected rider.
Um not quite
Whe Levi flatted he had one guy initially, but three more guys joined up very shortly after. He had support.
And on the final climb, LL just didn;t have anything left as he has since said. Lance pulled him up and there wouyld be nothing that Popo could have done to help out any batter. The others who were in the GC group at the bottom of the hill- Zeits, Brajkovic, Ruberia: all finished behind Levi so they were in no position to help either.
Bottom line: Astana had their doors blown off on that final climb. They couldn’t compete. Well maybe Lance could have but he was riding for Levi and cut his losses as a result.
And the main way you compare this to Paris-Nice is that in both races the supporters didn’t have the strength to compete. After that the comparison becomes false since in P-N if Contador had remembered to eat properly he would have stayed with Lulu and the rest.
Even I, an Astana fan, recognized pre-Giro that they were not the strongest team out there. But more than that only Liquigas IMO had the capacity to dominate the race. Maybe other here bought into some hype (from where?) but seriously this Astana team had weaknesses. Good but not great, and that starts with their race leader, Levi.
Is Bruyneel a good/ad manager and/or technician? Interesting question, but you’d have to look closer than what is said here- though Doctornurse’s “Phil Jackson Syndrome” is the closest to the mark.
ummm. AC didnt have any teammates for the last 30+km in the PN
stage that he bonked. Yeah, he forgot to eat. Being isolated and having to constantly fend off attacks doesnt help.
Isolation isn't that important in todays stage races
There rarely are races anymore when a winner on a climby stage has his teammates around him.
At Paris-Nice, when Contador was isolated, Lulu was also isolated and so was Colom. So was Chavanel. Only Frank Schelck wasn’t as he had Jens! That stage was hard enough to isolate almost every major player for the GC on that stage. They all were under pressure to finish well. Contador made a mistake and paid for it. But he didn’t lose because he was isolated as he has showen that almost always tha when he’s isolated he is the winner.
But look at today’s stage. Practucally 100 meters into thee final climb, Menchov was isolated. So was DiLuca. Sastre was too. Basso had Pellizotti but didn’t use him at all.
There comes a time in a difficult race where the winner has to show that they are the best and there’s no tactics or managerial skill that can influence enough who that winner is. Levi came up flat today and there’s very little that Bruyneel could do about that. What he could do, both on the stage and pre-Giro- he did IMO.
As gavia says below, the main thing one can question was letting Popo go for the win instead of having him fall back. But honestly, Popo was never gonna tow Levi up to Menchov as Levi didn’t have it in his legs. Levi could barely keep up with Lance so in the long run it made little difference what Popo did, just like it made little difference that Cunego didn’t pull up for Bruseghin.
Bert was islolated at the beginning of the final climb unlike Lulu
I believe, but I agree that although Astana let him down it was also his fault. But I don’t care about P-N right now. I think Astana didn’t protect Levi as well as they could have today but I think it would have made his 2:50 loss just 2:30 or so. Levi just didn’t have it today nor has he looked all that great over the last few stages. The Giro just may not be his type of race, unfortunately he will be 3rd in rank at the Tour so this was his big chance. Bummer.
In Chauncey we trust!
Please correcte me if my memory is playing games with me
But in P-N the other GC contenders shifted to attack and let Bert close the holes(combined effort) which is different from yesterday where everyone attacked everyone and everyone left behind tried to close the gaps.
Bert’s error wasn’t that he forgot to eat as much as him not wanting to let anyone get away while he got something to eat.
Yesterday Menchov played it cool and was quite selective with witch attacks to close, avoiding having to make more accelerations than necessary.
Perhaps there wasn’t much Astana could have done yesterday for LL at the foot of the very last mountain, but perhaps they should have done something on the other mountains. Actually I’d go so far and claim they should have taken control of the race several stages ago, taking apart the other GC contenders’ domestic riders.
That last bit
about Astana never really trying to take control of the race. That’s what I was getting at, I think, with my comment that the team’s tactics during this Giro have seemed a bit chaotic. We’ve seen each of the other teams make a concerted play for the jersey – Liquigas serveral times now, LPR, certainly, Rabobank, in control all day yesterday, etc. But Astana never really made a play to win this race and seemed to be all over the road at any given time. It surprised me, because it hasn’t been the norm for them.
Paris-Nice, I think they quite simply sent a weak team and Contador had to make do.
Agree
That’s the disappointing part. Astana seem to be waiting much to long and putting all on one stage to grab the jersey…..Keep it close and then go for it on one stage. I feel like they haven’t done a good job of scouting the opposition. Losing Horner hasn’t helped.
Alpe Du Huez is my favorite place on earth!!!!!!
yes exactly.
This is why I’ve been both annoyed at LA for several days and puzzled by the team as a whole.
but LL still doesn't have it
As much as Astana can attempt to control the race and wear out the other teams, you still need to have your team leader be able to finish it off and LL hasn’t shown that he can this race. Same can be said for Liquigas where they attempted to control the race early but Basso didn’t have the ability to finish and rid himself of the other guys.
Ah I still can't get away from the lakers
oh wait…we just kicked their ass! Bring it on!
In Chauncey we trust!
Lakers Lose
Great Game. Now its a series!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Alpe Du Huez is my favorite place on earth!!!!!!
Yes it is
and of course I decide to buy tickets to game 3 and not 4…..whatever, if we win I can get Finals tix!
In Chauncey we trust!
Fair enough.
One of the questions I’ve had is whether LL’s ‘not having it’ was a result of fighting back on after the flat, or would have been the case anyway. What you say is that it was coming in any case. I didn’t see the rest of the support you mention, but I don’t doubt it was there. I was distracted for much of those portions of the stage.
I’m still not convinced that LA was truly in a position to compete with Menchov, Sastre, Basso or DiLuca for the stage win, let alone a serious GC placing here, LL or no. But that is speculative.
I thought the maglia rosa group slowed down
a bit after levi flatted and he didn’t really have to do that much to get back to the group. That’s when/how Popo got that big gap.
+1
I completely agree with this, and with Jens’ OP.
I’ve been lurking here for 2 years, really enjoying the discussions and the wisdom of this group. I’m just so wound up today over yesterday’s stage that I could spit. My closest riding buddies were away for the weekend and are waiting to watch the recorded version tonight, so I’m stuck here boiling.
My $0.02: Popo may have been up the road to eat one of the time bonus slots. Unfortunately, that didn’t work out, and I feel for the guy for cranking it out like that all day.
But beyond that, where’s the strategy? It sure seemed to me that while LL had Astanii with him most of the day, they were usually behind him. Let’s even put aside a so-called “super domestique” jumping to temporarily mark the leaders. There’s no one on that team who can (or will?) fill Horner’s shoes. I have to sadly admit I feared this would happen when CH crashed out. I only hoped I’d be wrong.
< / rant > (Note that I’m usually an upbeat, not-ranting guy. I’m just really wound up over this today. I need to climb a bigger hill soon.
I thought that was bizarre tactics also
especially because at first, Popovych was sitting on Cunego and Scarponi, then he decided to attack. Er, what was he doing up there anyway? Me, I thought he was up there to help the general classification rider – Levi – who was in a podium position. But instead, he ended up on a doomed adventure for the stage win. I suppose they thought he’d stay away. It was good teevee time anyway, but he probably would have been more useful back in the field.
Odd choice, in my view.
I also thought the idea was
to have him support Levi. Does this mean they don’t believe he can do it? How many riders went for stage wins and didn’t support Lance when he rode for TdF?
dunno
I’d have to go back to my notes, but I think Astana had like five doods – Armstrong, Leipheimer, +3 – in the maglia rosa group on the Catria. So, they may have felt that Leipheimer had enough support riders and it would be a nice bonus for the team to pick off the stage win, if they could.
Wondering also if there was a bit of a personal thing there with Cunego after the Armstrong-Cunego run-in a few days ago.
I don’t know, to me, their riding this Giro has seemed a bit incoherent and not very focused.
This is one of the points I was trying to make...
…when I said it seemed like ‘too many cooks’ above. My impression of previous JB teams, both those organized around AC last year and those around LA earlier, was this tremendous focus on a single strategy. Here? Meh.
Hincapie in 2005
Oscar Pereiro towed him to a win in the Pyrenees. But Hincapie is/was not just another rider, and I’m sure Lance approved.
Bork, bork, bork!
by TheFigurehead on May 26, 2009 3:47 AM EDT up reply actions
key difference:
In 05 Hincapie’s break was 18 minutes up the road and the gc was decided.
Today was reminiscent of Popo’s “support” of Evans in . . . was it PN or the Liberated daffodil? (or should that be Free Daphne?)
I actually thought it was a nice move
Astana had enough guys to support Leipheimer without Popovych, the problem was that LL didn’t have the legs, having P. there wouldn’t have changed anything. Meanwhile P. was on pretty nice form and was clearly very strong yesterday, while Cunego has been having a rough patch and wasn’t going to help much going uphill anyways. I like the idea of sending him alone for the stage win, people say “it was inevitable that they would catch him” but I don’t think so, solo breakaways are always unlikely, doesn’t mean teams shouldn’t try them – might have worked if the race leaders had just spent all their time staring each other down, and Sastre had really been in “rest for the tour” mode.
by plinytheelder on May 26, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you mean
Evan’s move in PN last year. When Popo was supposed to be the team leader and Evans attacked out of the group and went for the stage win. Though at that time, iirc, everyone was defending Evans’ bid for the stage.
"Never swing a small stick. " Andy Hampsten
not me, still think Evans made a mistake
that day leaving Popo behind when he was yelling at him to slow down.
Menchov has to watch out on Wednesday
Di Luca is climbing well in the big mountains and he will be super motivated with the stage being in Abruzzo. Plus the climb suite’s someone who is looking to gain big time, so Sastre will also be active. This thing isn’t over for sure even though Menchov is looking great right now.
In Chauncey we trust!
I tend to agree.
I think DiLuca is still the bigger threat, though. Much as I would love for Sastre to pull this off, I don’t see him gaining that much time on both of those two, then defending it in a TT. If there is someone who can still steal this Giro, I think its DiLuca.
Blockhaus
I wonder if this really will be a decisive stage. It’s short and there is a pretty smooth run-in into the major climb. Rabo will be complete at the base. Then they’ll probably keep it together for quite a long time. Menchov then answers a few attacks and it’s over already. Could be as simple as that.
"Non-cyclists. The emptiness of those lives shocks me." Tim Krabbé
Is that even official?
they still have the 23km climb posted on gazetta. I’m sure it is but RCS has done a poor job in announcing just what they’ve cut out.
In Chauncey we trust!
It's short but 25% of the stage goes uphill at about 7%
there is no doubt Di Luca and Sastre have to attack to gain time but it can be done. If they gain just a bit of time then they can try to pace themselves and go a bit faster then Menchov and gain a lot of time. Maybe not likely but possible. Maybe LPR or Cervelo will drill it at the bottom of the climb with 4-5 riders and then let their leader take charge. They have to do something, will be fun.
In Chauncey we trust!
Agreed
but I’ll still watch it. Cause if an attack does work. Then it will be EPIC!!! I mean gallant daring dauntless elevated fearless gallant grand gritty gutsy. Yes, it will be gutsy.
"Never swing a small stick. " Andy Hampsten
always good
when someone knows the words to the Canadian National Anthem (en français)
sometimes life is a false flat
yeah we should throw those in now and then – I’m already thinking of clever ways to use the part about the sword and the cross for Flanders next year
by plinytheelder on May 26, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Are we celebrating beef?
Bork, bork, bork!
by TheFigurehead on May 26, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Garmin very consistent today
all 5 of their remaining riders finished at 48:14 back, in the grupetto. Impressive.
In Chauncey we trust!
Just part of their masterplan
Crashdan: "Veni Vidi Vici beats Wing Kong Exchange... … and I’ll change my signature to a backwards smile for a month."
Franzoi wins Parijs-Roubaix and I win a date with the VDS of Team Txirrindulariak..
Oh, so they are going on a 5 man attack on stage 18
which they will win by 1 hour and 20 minutes, giving Wiggins the GC lead by 6 minutes, which he will just hold on to on stage 19 before he wins the Giro……and then flying Ponies will fly Wiggins to the Moon were he will celebrate his GT victory with his alien friends.
In Chauncey we trust!
Alien?
Don’t you mean “extraterrestrial”?
"I get paid to hurt other people. How good is that? How good is that?
I get paid to make other people suffer on my wheel, that's good." Jens!
Garmin
Yeah I noticed that myself. Must be a master plan for TDF……..Vaughters is a genius…..
Alpe Du Huez is my favorite place on earth!!!!!!
With CVV not looking so good with the injury
the Tour isn’t looking so much brighter for them, maybe Dan Martin can show a good result….or maybe they should focus on the Vuelta.
In Chauncey we trust!
JV pictures Dan Martin in the white jersey
Don’t know if he also pictures Schleckinho to Schleck himself.
Bork, bork, bork!
by TheFigurehead on May 26, 2009 3:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Vaughter is lucky
With LA coming back he doesn’t really have to explain the “no show” of his team at Giro… I like the team but I raised the question a few weeks ago I really don’t understand their team tactics. I really wonder what they will do at TDF. I guess it depends on CVV and his recovery. Dan Martin showed up in Spain so i say put him in for the team at TDF. Someone explain to me where Juilan Dean has gone……….Why isn’t he sprinting against Petacchi, Cav etc.
Alpe Du Huez is my favorite place on earth!!!!!!
dead last in team gc
Millar abandoned, Farrar abandoned, CVV hurt.
Zabriskie useless, Pate anonymous.
So far, the most impressive rider has been Danielson. But that’s because I thought he would have abandoned 4 stages ago.
A true horror-show of a gt for these guys.
Don't forget.....
Dave Z’s butchering of Sweet Child O’ Mine before the stage….my poor ears!
In Chauncey we trust!
I do not know what is up with Zabriskie...it seems so strange that he gets podium in California and Castilla y Leon and then he is almost dead last...
I believe on stage 13 he was up front with Cam Meyer pulling at 60 kph for a while pulling back the break but still…that guy is a mystery.
Though I guess it is a silent win because he is actually making it through a GT without injuring himself. I just wish sense of humor could translate to cycling. He would be winning a bunch of races then.
by Vlaanderen90 on May 25, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
My theory is that he doesn't want a repeat of his last year on CSC
By going too hard in too many races he was dead by the Tour. He and JV probably acknowledge that he needs to go rested into the Tour. He’s just in Italy for the miles. Just a guess.
Haiku Requiem for Levi Leipheimer's Giro Hopes
Levi Leipheimer
The Giro ain’t The Gila
Rude awakening.
Racing for Victory and Free Beer!
Team Washed Out Purple shares a water bottle
(from http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=7097)
E-P-I-C!
I don't know--look at Killer's face.
Who wants to bet Menchov spends the rest day on the bathroom floor, moaning with pain?
Long day--bad grammar. That's the way it works.--Lance Armstrong
Basso is pulling that face because he just figured out that he isn’t in the club.
MBT
by ManBicycleThing on May 25, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
reminds me
of Soler’s arrival in the TdF two years ago. At one point he offered around some water, everyone else was too gutted to take any, and so he attacked and was gone.
"The road is our agony, but also our daily bread; and at night, when it is deserted and the moon glistens on the asphalt, the ridiculous dreams of racers like us pass up and down it."
--Dino Buzzati
stage 16 replay starts on raisport piu at 0.19 local (or in 7 mins or so)
according to schedule…
tho, i think a replay is just finishing
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Sorry I deserted you earlier.
I just couldn’t get my computer to deal with the length of the threads and the net kept seizing up! But I was in fact there until the very end, despite the presence of my extended family. My aunt even asked me what I was watching and showed some interest! Really pleased for Sastre. I admire his quietly unassuming nature and his ability to take people apart on mountains. He won he as a fan on the Alpe when he wooshed past me ahead of the field and he’s confirmed it here. Too bad he couldn’t have opened a bigger gap though, and too bad that Basso couldn’t get to him as well. I’d like to see a real battle for Menchov’s jersey…..
Adrenalina Italiana!
Ohh. I don't think that battle's definitely off.
It’s going to be a very interesting next couple of days for Denis, even if he is very well positioned indeed.
Garzelli....
The attempted ‘come hither’ look and the mickey mouse sun burnt head preventing device don’t really go do they?
Adrenalina Italiana!
LOL
Maybe he forgot he was wearing that thing when he gave that look?
Hey Albertina, have I missed something (spent a week in Portugal) or has there really not been a hottitude thread since the “minus Benna”-thread way before the Giro?
No, there is no further hottitude thread...busy stuff, this Giro watching!
You could always start one you know, if you so desire ;-)
Adrenalina Italiana!
Mmmm De Rosa....is it a new one? Full carbon? Top of the range?
If so, I’m going Garzelli hunting ;-)
Adrenalina Italiana!
eeeeehhh the seatpost is carbon
It’s basically like this, only the silver/black version. It’s their low end alu model but still made in Italy or so I have been led to believe.
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