Dopage: The Open Thread
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 15, 2009 1:23 PM EDT
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So 50 or so riders are about to be suspended. Or maybe 50 guys have been targeted for further examination, meaning everyone but those 50 are considered clean, and only six or seven are thought sure to be guilty at this time with another 43 under scrutiny. Or maybe everyone is guilty. All I can say is, I am clean. I did a stage race this weekend, and most assuredly missed out on whatever could have woken up my legs Sunday.
Anyway, news seems to be trickling out slowly, and with questionable value, so until we get a big headline use this thread to talk about what's happening today. I'll get it started by ridiculing Velonews: here's your lame headline/story of the day. Is there anything ambiguous about the Valverde/Tour polemica? I have a lot of respect for Andy Hood's reporting, so maybe this is what you write when your medium clears space for a major story and it doesn't break on time. But AFAIK no means no, even/especially in France.
As for the rest of them, know this: Tourbecco is watching you. Very closely.
Update! Some clarity, which I think we already identified, from CN:
"I emphasised that there weren't 50 suspicious riders," McQuaid told Cyclingnews. "The 50 refers to a selection from the long list for the Tour de France.... A group of around 50 [from 300 potential entrants submitted by the teams] were selected by UCI, ASO and AFLD comprising the race favourites, leading riders in each team and some targeted riders; they will get extra testing on top of the others."
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I'm horrified
I just fear the upcoming invasion of Vueltabecco, and then Flandersbecco, and Roubiaxecco.
Worst of all
Enecobecco
Bork, bork, bork!
by TheFigurehead on Jun 15, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Believe it or not
jokes do eventually get old around here.
Abruzziamo!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 15, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
And Roubaixecco might presage the coming Basque domination...
…of the northern classics.
(And no, you can’t have any of what I’m smoking. Its MINE!)
Unfortunately the Basques do not use the letter 'c'.
It would have to be Roubaixeko.
Adrenalina Italiana!
On the other hand, it's a sponsor's name,
not entirely happy about that. The Eneco Tour is really the Ronde van Nederland & België, Benelux minus Luxemburg; so how about Benebecco?
So just, Bene...
…which will make the Italophiles happy…
Poor poor Sochibecco
what might have been…
Abruzziamo!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 15, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
yikes
at some point do the ’beccos become the new Kennedys?
Abruzziamo!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 15, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
You are too young to get that..
Don’t wotrry.. You have a couple of years left to sort that out!
Crashdan: "Veni Vidi Vici beats Wing Kong Exchange... … and I’ll change my signature to a backwards smile for a month."
Frining "It's what he thinks.. But he always do.. I eat my shoe if he ride top 15 in le Tour" about Devolder
Just talk over it! ;)
Crashdan: "Veni Vidi Vici beats Wing Kong Exchange... … and I’ll change my signature to a backwards smile for a month."
Frining "It's what he thinks.. But he always do.. I eat my shoe if he ride top 15 in le Tour" about Devolder
Be nice
This is a thread to keep track of the shoe that we’re all waiting to drop, e.g. the UCI biological passport 50 names thing.
Abruzziamo!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 15, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
clarification
UCI stylee. i think i’m more confused than before, damn them.
Context
People at l’Equipe thought the UCI was identifying 50 cheats. It’s not 50 cheats, it’s 50 guys who should be watched more closely, including potential cheats, potential winners, and Lance Armstrong.
Abruzziamo!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 15, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn't realize this story originated from L'Equipe,
I would have skipped right over it had I known
Am I the only one who got the funny in the construction of that list?
Well played Chris
Heh
Abruzziamo!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 15, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Here's a question
who will have this story first? Specifically, the names of the 50, or of the 6-7 truly suspicious characters? I am not fully trusting L’Equipe.
Abruzziamo!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 15, 2009 2:14 PM EDT reply actions
Riders notified first, then teams
so the leaks are going to come from the teams. If someone at the UCI was going to spill it it would be out by now. My money is on El Pais or Pravda (or whatever newspaper there is in Rusia these days).
Mr. Chairman! Mr. Chairman!
I have in my hands the names of 50 card carrying members of the EPO party who ride in the Pro Tour!
Just a quick note, I’m not sure how much l’équipe is to be blamed, it sounds like they were just quoting McQuaid directly in this story. Unless something was lost in translation (don’t know if he was speaking English or French), or unless I’m missing something, which is entirely possible ;)
by plinytheelder on Jun 15, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm betting McQuaid is the culprit
I tried Google translate him once but there was no “Moron” to “Swedish” or “Moron” to “English” option
Actually looking at the story again it may be the verb “cibler” that is to blame – can mean both “target” and “focus on” or “direct attention to” – I’d bet (makes sense in context of story) that l’équipe meant the UCI was going to “focus on” 50 cyclists (i.e., as Chris says above, “50 guys who should be watched more closely”); but CN then translated this, it seems, as “target” 50 cyclists, which of course has a much more negative connotation.
Then again this doesn’t explain why, a few lines down, McQuaid says he doesn’t imagine that the teams will bring these riders to the Tour…confusing.
by plinytheelder on Jun 15, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
did you try Norwegian?
Am shocked if you didn’t.
Abruzziamo!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 15, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
This is why it's not a good idea
to send Jered to Aigle to check out the UCI: he might never be able to speak or write English again were to get Verbruggenized there.
ouch!
dude I thought you were Norwegian, or Latvian or something
by plinytheelder on Jun 15, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes by now we should realize that *all* statements by McQuaid require clarification...
…because his first instinct is never to make sense, or speak in anything other than a confused muddle.
+1
If you stayed with the lemond speech long enough for his decsriptions of Mc Quaid’s
emails – priceless!
In his press conference he said (punctuation removed)
If it means that for instance I as president of the UCI have information confidential information in the days or weeks not so much the weeks but days leading up to the tour and I can use that confidential information in a confidential way with the right people to take a rider out of the race then I will do so.
Putting the fluency issue aside – it seemed at the time (by his delivery) that the “not so much etc” was a correction to his previous remark. Makes more sense now. Possibly some riders bp is so bad they can effectively be dared not ride them, and if they dare he may step in?
Bizarre
Because I read the story in l’équipe and got that there were 50 riders who would be tested extra at the Tour. But I also got that this 50 was separate from the riders who are supposedly in trouble with the bio-passport, and no number was given on that side of the story. I think the problem is that the two things were discussed in the same presser and somebody conflated them. I didn’t find the l’équipe reporting especially unclear, though, by any means.
It couldn't possibly have been CN could it have?
nah! that’s unpossible
"Never swing a small stick. " Andy Hampsten
Well let's see...
McQuaid + Any poor sucker of a journalist = trainwreck.
So, (McQuaid + Any poor sucker of a journalist) + translation = what? Mid-air collision?
50 out of 300 targeted
So do the other 250 start upping their doping regime?
sometimes life is a false flat
ha!
Sure, as long as they don’t come within 50 places of a stage win.
Abruzziamo!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 15, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course, no one has sai it would be out today
so the news could break on thursday, long after Gavia has worn out the F5 key (or the Mac equivalent) on her computer.
Why tell the 50 ahead of time?
If you are going to target them for additional testing then why tell them in advance? This seems like the UCI playing a shell game in order to show that the bio passports are effective in response to the Kohl statement.
Identifying the “suspicious” riders is the easy part. Actually proving and suspending drug cheats is the hard part and the UCI seems to be a bit hesitant on executing that part of it still. At least on the basis of the Passport data.
Maybe Versus can create a little on-screen graphic indicating which riders are on the “Hot Sheet” during the race. That would make things a lot more interesting.
No one is going to notify the fifty
those are just the ones who will get tested more vigorously (in and before the Tour). They can probably deduce that they are on that list by the increase in interest from testers though. The AfLD had a list like this last year, by focusing resources on likely targets they stand a better chance of catching someone. It’s like fishing where the sonar tells you there is fish rather than trawling the entire Atlantic ocean.
The ones who will get notified are the ones they are preparing cases on based on the data that has already been collected.
If the Irish Idiot hadn’t annonced two completely seperate things in one pc, there wouln’t be so much confusion.
does "Irish Idiot" get added to the Lexicon now?
"I get paid to hurt other people. How good is that? How good is that?
I get paid to make other people suffer on my wheel, that's good." Jens!
McQuaid?
Don’t we already have about a dozen nicknames for him already?
Abruzziamo!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 15, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
By "loved"
do you mean “pitied”?
Abruzziamo!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 15, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Potato- Potatoe
He did say “in Sweden” :)
"I get paid to hurt other people. How good is that? How good is that?
I get paid to make other people suffer on my wheel, that's good." Jens!
Also
for the few who are under real suspicion, I think the teams need a chance to replace them, or they’re on notice that the Tour will tell them they can’t start. So notifying the teams is unavoidable.
Abruzziamo!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 15, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
So
we should be on the lookout for sudden cases of tendinitis and other strange intestinal disorders about now?
"Aw, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. God. Oh, I'm hurt. Oh, my neck, my back, my neck and my back. "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mr2EtOxD_Q
(FWIW: I still can’t get vids to embed here.)
"…I saw bloody Cavendish coming, really fast…"
HH
This may be a crazy idea,...
…but fair is fair. Now, I don’t know how much blood they take from these guys at each test. I imagine it’s a very small amount. Nevertheless, I think it’s hard enough on a rider’s body just to stay healthy throughout a grand tour. With minor crashes and grueling stages, a body’s immune system is working overtime already.
This why I am proposing that if these clowns really do intend to show up with “an army” of testers, and if they’re going to be doing the vampire thing on these guys day in and day out, each rider over some nominal number of tests should be awarded 1 second off his time for each subsequent doping test.
There, I said it. Laugh at it, ridicule it, do what you will to this crazy idea, but I’m sick of seeing these outsiders needling these guys (tee hee) and not doing real science anyway.
"Think globally, bike locally."
I'm sorry..
but that has the be the worst idea I have ever heard. Grueling? Yes it is, very grueling. However, doping controls are a part of the job, and their are many jobs out there more grueling than pro-cyclist. At the end of the day, they are still in the Tour, they are still paid to ride bikes. I don’t feel sorry for them having to give up a little blood…gimme a break.
Hmmm
On one hand, a rider who has never done anything wrong and is being subjected to constant testing is hard to not empathize with.
I don’t really buy into the “it’s part of the job” arguement, but I do think it is something that the riders collectively brought upon themselves.
I doubt that Colom, Pfannberger, Rebellin, et al were acting without anyone having knowledge of it.
If the riders don’t like the testing, they have the power to stop it.
I’m not talking about ratting out people to the media, but take it up with the rider directly. If Pozatto, McEwan, Steegmans and a couple others knock on Colom’s door in the middle of the night with a message that he needs to clean his act up or deal with consequences, the problem never comes to light because it stops being a problem.
"I get paid to hurt other people. How good is that? How good is that?
I get paid to make other people suffer on my wheel, that's good." Jens!
Heh
Nice try. Now go back and watch the video I posted Friday on the 1987 Tour de Suisse and picture what would’ve happened had Peter Winnen been awarded the overall based on an extra test.
Abruzziamo!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 15, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah at the risk of dredging up the debates of the last couple of weeks, I noticed that too.
by plinytheelder on Jun 16, 2009 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm in no way competent to speak on theses issues
but there seems to be one factor of modern racing that needs to be taken into account.
Racing today is way more calculated than it once was. We discuss the impact of doping a lot but a huge factor is the impact of power/watt-monitors like SRMs. Todays riders, whether they race with SRMs or not, have a completely different awareness of how long they can ride at certain levels of poweroutputs than riders in the past did. I know oldschoolers claim to “know their bodies” just as well but to some extent that is BS, you can’t beat hard cold facts sometimes.
So I would assume that some of the guys we used to see panting at the finish are now chugging along at their optimal pace, reaching the finish 40 secs later but living to fight another day. And some of them are of course so juiced they don’t even dare to gasp for air for fear of bloodclots.
I agree with pretty much everything you say...
except for the “40 secs later” part ;)
Still, your point is well taken.
by plinytheelder on Jun 16, 2009 2:33 AM EDT up reply actions
True enough
Todays riders, whether they race with SRMs or not, have a completely different awareness of how long they can ride at certain levels of poweroutputs than riders in the past did. I know oldschoolers claim to “know their bodies” just as well but to some extent that is BS, you can’t beat hard cold facts sometimes.
True enough, but that doesn’t seem to have done Floyd any good.
Have at it. I promise that wasn’t a troll.
"Think globally, bike locally."
Oy
Just trying to untangle 2006 Stage 17 makes my head hurt. I mean, if he was doing these rides in training… and the water thing lowered his core temp as Allan Lim explains (and do I need to be suspicious of Allan Lim?)… and the other contenders, save for Sastre, spent the entire Tour looking at each other… The evils of doping. It’s impossible to know what to believe.
Abruzziamo!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 16, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
sorry, but my opinion
And some of them are of course so juiced they don’t even dare to gasp for air for fear of bloodclots.
But we are most likely never going to know so………..
Maybe too old
But Andy Schleck looked like a salmon that had jumped into Chris’s living room several times en route to his 2nd place in the Giro.
Yes but
did he have an adipose fin?
Abruzziamo!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 16, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
With minor crashes and grueling stages, a body’s immune system is working overtime already
Indeed it is. Which is why it’s absolutely crazy to then sit in your manager’s hotel room of an evening having blood casually defrosted in the cargo hold of an aeroplane pumped back into you. To lose the small amount of blood taken in a test is nowhere near as risky by comparison.
Lionel Birnie of Cyclingweekly
He received confirmation that it’s NOT 50 riders about to be named. He attened the McQuaid press conference He said he would be surprised if it was more than 10 names.
Birnie is also reporting
a rumour has been floating about – namely that the named riders will be those who have already banned. Giving a nice post hoc justification for the bio-passport.
Let’s hope that’s not the case.
Cyclingweekly
Their reporting on these stories has been really good lately.
Better than cyclingnews, in my view.
let's speculate.. There where stories about men in black.. I think I catched one on my cam
Anybody an idea who it could be?
Crashdan: "Veni Vidi Vici beats Wing Kong Exchange... … and I’ll change my signature to a backwards smile for a month."
Frining "It's what he thinks.. But he always do.. I eat my shoe if he ride top 15 in le Tour" about Devolder
What about the men in Girbecco/Tourbecco/Whatever masks?
Mon coeur appartient à les forçats de la route.
Is that comfortable?
It looks like he’s riding with his jeans around his ankles. If that’s the case, he should definitely be wearing a helmet…
Glad to see VN journalist
adding that little tidbit about valv piti bag 18 testing positive for rEPO.
Nice handle
and welcome!
Abruzziamo!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 16, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Names are hitting message boards, supposedly from Russian newspaper Nezavisimaya Gazeta
But so far verification is elusive. Anybody know Russian and might be able to search in that language?
I can't understand why people cheat--Mark Cavendish
Sadly, no
I tried to learn Russian, but it totally cracked me. Somewhere about the time I found out there were like 100 ways to say to go. Meh.
Eh, I'm really suspicious about the report anyway.
Tried searching the supposed source, got nothing. No news sources have picked it up, and I think 2 of the 3 message boards got it from the first. No verification at all.
I can't understand why people cheat--Mark Cavendish
Si
I wouldn’t expect it to come out in Russian first.
More like one of the usual sources – l’équipe, gazzetta, belgian press of some sort.
Eh, I can wait, anyway.
Expect if it are Katushya riders..
Crashdan: "Veni Vidi Vici beats Wing Kong Exchange... … and I’ll change my signature to a backwards smile for a month."
Frining "It's what he thinks.. But he always do.. I eat my shoe if he ride top 15 in le Tour" about Devolder
Linkiiie?!?!
Crashdan: "Veni Vidi Vici beats Wing Kong Exchange... … and I’ll change my signature to a backwards smile for a month."
Frining "It's what he thinks.. But he always do.. I eat my shoe if he ride top 15 in le Tour" about Devolder
One down - suspicion, at least!
Joaquim Rodriguez with tendonitis, will not be participating in the Spanish Championship!
Frinking found the list of 5
Igor Astarloa Ascasibar (ESP)
Pietro Caucchioli (ITA)
Francesco De Bonis (ITA)
Ruben Lobato Elvira (ESP)
Ricardo Serrano Gonzalez (ESP)
Damnit, Serrano
I liked ham (wha…) and he has now fucked Fuji up totally. I liked Caucchioli too – had figured out about De Bonis and Astarloa long ago, though. Funny to see how both of those probably got a warning a year ago around Romandie but took no notice.
Anyway, it has begun!
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