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Around SBN: Knicks 90, Raptors 87: "Shump and Lin wouldn't let us lose."

Just perusing some headlines at L'Équipe, first off Quick Step plans to challenge the ASO on Boonen's Tour exclusion; second, Valverde is asking the Court of Arbitration for Sport to "take note of CONI's incompetence" and acquit him (source; UCI also looking at CONI's file and expected to make an announcement next week); finally, Steven Rooks (remember him?) has admitted, in a recent book on the 1989 Tour by Dutch journalist Mark Smeets, to taking EPO - says he started after 89, i.e. after his best years, because without it he basically wouldn't have been able to keep up (source).

over 2 years ago 001234202_tiny plinytheelder 29 comments 0 recs  | 

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I thought Rooks admitted to doping years ago

PDM’s ex manager Gisbers admitted that the team doped througout the late 80’s early 90’s. (Probably why they were all forced to quit en masse during the ‘91 Tour.) And no I don’t have a link (sorry) Just something I recall reading on cyclingnews in the wake of the Festina scandal.

And then there was Theunisse, who was busted on two separate occasions. And Breukink? Kelly??

by Fernando on Jun 19, 2009 4:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Now that you mention it that does ring a bell, but to be honest I can’t remember. Well, other than Theunisse, who was caught in the act. I don’t know about the other guys, at the risk of opening a can of worms I know that LeMond has claimed he left PDM when Theunisse tested positive because he wanted no part of it.

The book sounds interesting, it’s called “Het laatste geel,” which apparently translates to “The Last Yellow” – perhaps one of the Dutch contingent can give us a rundown? ;)

by plinytheelder on Jun 19, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

LeMond

called this one generally. By 1991, the Tour sped away from him, and he knew why.

Abruzziamo!

by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 19, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re Valverde

Shockingly there was a news item on the CAS website – here

V’s argument now officially appears to be – “You shouldn’t have looked in those bags,…. and so what if there’s something in ’em – er, …see earlier point!”.

by andrewp on Jun 19, 2009 4:23 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks for that link – yeah it sounds like he’s arguing strictly on procedural grounds (though I guess that’s what he’s been doing from the start? I admittedly haven’t followed very closely). It will be interesting to see what the UCI has to say next week.

by plinytheelder on Jun 19, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's part of AV's argument but..

He has said he’ll give DNA, but no-one has ever asked for it. However he says he won’t let CONI have his DNA because he doesn’t trust them since this is an injustice. Which is fair enough, not sure I’d let someone determined to nail me have my DNA. Obviously they claim they already have it based on the test from the TDF but he claims he’s never seen that evidence, as do Caisse d’Epargne. They’ve (he, the team) not had the chance to test the DNA and see if it matches to the blood in that bag, even the Spanish federation didn’t, so how could CONI? So much just doesn’t add up.

My only point in all of this would be if there was really a clear match between his DNA and that blood test and they’d seen this, why are Cd’E still be backing him, not having suspended or anything. It’d be damaging for them, so clearly they believe him? I don’t even know anymore.

He also re-iterates in an interview how many times since 2006 he’s been tested, always coming back negative, and how his results have always been consistent and he’s always won things since he was 14 and older. There haven’t really been any surprising results with him, he’s always done well and always had odd bad days. Yes some seasons have been better than others but hell couldn’t we nail most riders on that basis, but largely he’s slowly and gradually improved, like many others.
He is leading the case with emphasis on procedural grounds but there is slightly more to it. And in the first statement he ever released he did say he hasn’t doped, and that he was willing to have his blood values compared with that in the bag but it never came to that.

Perhaps I’m biased and want to believe it, but you gotta admit the case is a weird one.

"When he accelerates, he's like Superman emerging from the telephone booth!" La Gazzetta journo Paolo Condo talking about Edvald Boasson Hagen.

by Helsy33 on Jun 20, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

The case is strange but that's basically because the Spanish court didn't anything to help..

And.. Kohl also tested negative for 5 years.. Argument gone I would say

Crashdan: "Veni Vidi Vici beats Wing Kong Exchange... … and I’ll change my signature to a backwards smile for a month."
Frining "It's what he thinks.. But he always do.. I eat my shoe if he ride top 15 in le Tour" about Devolder

by Frinking on Jun 20, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

True but they did catch him eventually, during the Tour non the less

and my argument is Valv’s results are getting better every year but he’s still not tested positive so can’t it just be gradual improvement rather than doping

"When he accelerates, he's like Superman emerging from the telephone booth!" La Gazzetta journo Paolo Condo talking about Edvald Boasson Hagen.

by Helsy33 on Jun 21, 2009 7:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Weird yes, but not unfathomable..

At the start of peurto, in 2006 (yes count the years) several blood bags were found, some had EPO in, it now appears one of these bags with epo had AV’s blood in. I don’t automatically believe much when it comes to offialdom, but I can’t believe CONI would go out on such a limb. They are a national olympic committee after all.

I accept it may be a witchhunt etc etc etc, or so long ago as to be irrelevant (tell Basso that) but if it has got to the stage where if he is found “innocent” then his innocence will have (in the court of public opinion) the credibility of the OJ Simpson trial.

But ask yourself – in your heart of hearts – did he dope?

Cavendish - "le Mozart du onze-dents" (the Mozart of the 11-tooth sprocket) – L’Equipe

by andrewp on Jun 20, 2009 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand what you're saying...

And yes it would be a risk for CONI to do all this without the proof, but clearly stuff doesn’t bother them too much because they’ve got hold of the Puerto blood illegally anyway, so they must know some of it isn’t/wasn’t going to hold up in court. Which is another weird aspect of it.

In my heart of hearts I want to believe he hasn’t doped, but with any rider I like there’s always the cloud of doubt because we don’t know them. I certainly believe he hasn’t been the past 2-3 years. Before 2006 it’s hard to say, but based on his results and what i see of him I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt on this one.
The thing I like in it all is Oscar Pereiro did a very candid interview in early May, talking about how much drugs etc makes him angry ( In Spanish… http://www.publico.es/deportes/224901/de/positivo/suspenderle/vida ), but he also says he totally believes V’s innocence and is publicy and privately backing him through the case saying stuff like “We will do everything to stop this injustice”… If i could find the links i would but i’m too lazy. One proof of this here… http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/may09/may19news (the article is near the bottom)

"When he accelerates, he's like Superman emerging from the telephone booth!" La Gazzetta journo Paolo Condo talking about Edvald Boasson Hagen.

by Helsy33 on Jun 21, 2009 7:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

CONI got the evidence legally

The blood evidence upon which Valverde’s suspension is based was released to Italian government authorities by the Spanish judge who was in charge of the OP case while the original judge in the case (Serrano) was on vacation. The action of the Italian prosecutor’s office was perhaps opportunistic, but it was not illegal.

I’m not swayed by Valverde’s supposed willingness to have his DNA tested against the OP blood bags. It’s easy to make that offer when you don’t think anyone will take you up on it. Basso also started out saying that he was willing to have his DNA compared to the blood bags, but when CONI called his bluff, the jig was up.

by Susie Hartigan on Jun 21, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess I don't understand your question.

CONI has taken him up on it, in the sense that they have compared his DNA to the Puerto blood. That’s the basis for Valverde’s suspension in Italy.

by Susie Hartigan on Jun 22, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

What are the timescales here?

Would either case be heard in time for Boonen/Valverde to compete in the Tour? (Judging by the speed CAS seem to operate at, it seems somewhat unlikely, but clearly that’s what each rider is hoping?).

& on Valverde, will the UCI, who eight days ago were promising a decision in “four, five, six” days, now find reasons to procrastinate further until CAS makes a ruling on CONI’s jurisdiction?

by civetta on Jun 19, 2009 4:44 PM EDT reply actions  

I really don’t know, I know that Valverde has asked them to take “urgent action.” As for Boonen, the story’s now up at CN.

by plinytheelder on Jun 19, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

In that CN story

it says Quickstep are appealing to the “Chamber of Arbitration for Sport (CNOSF)”. CNOSF is the French Olympic committee, rather than CAS/TAS (as if that/those weren’t already confusing enough). Wonder if that’s right? The Equipe source just mentions legal proceedings in general so far as I can see.

by civetta on Jun 19, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, that’s funny – so Boonen and Valverde are appealing…to different bodies? Confusing indeed. Just off the top of my head I suppose it’s because CONI is seeking to exclude Valverde based on performance-enhancing drugs, while ASO wants to exclude Boonen based on image? Different legal-terrain jurisdictions, I guess. Though again, I’m basically just talking out my ass ;)

by plinytheelder on Jun 19, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

And to put it in the vernacular..

“You’re ass speaks fluent English” . And yes I did get all 304 (and counting( double entredres!!!)

by andrewp on Jun 19, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Firstly today - can I apologise for the above

Was mortified when I read that comment back today. Wish I could blame it on drink – but cant, just rubbish cut and paste skills, should check text more carefully.

by andrewp on Jun 20, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

the UCI rulebook contains

2.2.010 Exclusion from races

Special provisions applicable to road events in the historic class
The organiser may refuse permission to participate in – or exclude from – an
event, a team or one of its members whose presence might be prejudicial to the
image or reputation of the organiser or of the event.
If the UCI and/or the team and/or one of its members does not agree with the
decision taken in this way by the organizer, the dispute shall be placed before
the Court of Arbitration for Sport which must hand down a ruling within an
appropriate period. However, in the case of the Tour de France, the dispute
shall be placed before the Chambre Arbitrale du Sport [Sports Arbitration
Chamber] (Maison du sport français, 1 avenue Pierre de Coubertin, 75640 Paris
Cédex 13).
http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/getObject.asp?MenuId=MTkzNg&ObjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=34028&

by lucybears on Jun 19, 2009 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

More thanks for the link from here too

The above led me to the UCI doping rules (here)
Although they are this year’s version (and therefore not the same as the ones in force at the time) cant find anything in them that helps AV with regards to jurisdiction type “competence”. The tour wasn’t a UCI race that year, so it is down to the rules and procedures of France and Italy(CONI).

Now coming to belief competence must relate to whether the evidence used for the decision is convincing/legally obtained etc – again (sigh)

Anyway

by andrewp on Jun 20, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

also anyway

thanks, (and I can, & do, blame my posts on drink….)

by lucybears on Jun 20, 2009 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

If a rider afraid that a testing authority will fake the DNA info on the bag...

by taking a new DNA sample and planting it, or some such…

all he needs to do is demand that they FIRST DNA test the blood, and stash those results. Or heck, release enough of them that there’s minimal statistical chance of a match, unless it’s the rider (or his identical twin).

After all, there’s zero risk that the rider can change his own DNA composition so as to avoid a match.

by JFS_PGH on Jun 23, 2009 12:59 AM EDT reply actions  

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