Help Me Buy My Wife a Bike!
No, this isn't a call for donations... I am searching around to determine what my options are for a nice fast road-style bike with the things Mrs. PdC likes in her current bike. For demonstration purposes, here's a picture to work off of:
This is the Atala Manhattan. Vaguely like a compact road frame but with "city bike" bars and a nice, easy upright setup. Like anything ending in a vowel, it's a bit pricey, and I'm confident it's not the only brand making a light, fast city bike. [By "light" and "fast" I am referring to the stadard for city bikes, not for racing bikes. Her current bike weighs more than our whole family, so anything in the 25-30 pound range will seem feathery.]
So my question is, what other brands and models are you aware of that vaguely fit this description? I think the only real requirement is the upright position; something more like a real road bike or a cross bike would be fine. Road shifting would be fine. American-made preferred, not out of patriotic fervor so much as my hunch that there are a lot of nice bikes made here, and tend to be good values. Italian is great but probably not happening. Taiwanese is cool too -- I'm a realist. Under $1000 would also be fine, but I know how pricing goes. Thanks!
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This is a growing market segment
I’m pretty sure that both of the US bigs (alas, I no longer count c-dale) have models that would fit the bill.
And then there’s the Bianchi Milano, which just might be the coolest bike ever.
Milano, eh?
checking now…
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 15, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
bianchi
My girlfriend got the Bianchi “Strada” http://www.bianchiusa.com/past/2003/site/bikes/26_Strada_zoom.html
a few years ago for commuting in San Francisco and now for the occasional recreation ride with me. It’s been a good bike, she likes it (and my biking buddy ended up getting the same bike for his girlfriend) – fairly light, upright position, tires similar to cross. The Strada isn’t in the 09 line-up, but I’d look at the “Sport” line-up, the chamaleonte series looks interesting.
I like the Masi Soulville and Swobo Dixon
by Merry Crankster on Jul 15, 2009 12:55 PM EDT reply actions
oohh
cool top tube
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 15, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks guys!
Keep em coming, though this is definitely something to work with.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 15, 2009 1:05 PM EDT reply actions
I love my Trek Navigator

But I don’t have the back carry thing on mine. Also mine is silver/blue. The shifters are on the hand grips. I think it cost me around $450.00.
Go Lance!
curvy!
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 15, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
US made bikes
I like your preference to buy a US made bike. Almost all of my bikes are US made frames (Cannondale, Voodoo, Santa Cruz)… although my old Raleigh is made in England, which is awesome.
US made will typically set you back some coin, but below are a few of the great US choices:
1. Waterford… quite possibly the most-respected American frame builder, specializing in awesome steel bikes… Waterford built all of the classic Paramount frames, invented oversized tubing designs and the 26" wheel! Gotta love them!
2. Serotta… great bikes, focus is on high end road racers though
3. Seven… Relatively new, but very highly rated frames
4. Litespeed/Merlin… dominant US titanium builders… spendy but nice.
How could I have forgotten my favorite?
My next dream bike buildup will likely be an Independent Fabrications Independence touring bike…
Indy Fab is a phenomenal frame builder, but not cheap….
I like the sight of that Masi and from Sui's link the Fuji Cambridge
but I gradually moved away sporty bikes. They’re neither here nor there. So I now have 3 specialty tools: road racing bike, folding bike to bring in the train and an old-fashioned city/touring bike like this: http://www.gazelle.nl/nl/assets/Fietsen/2009_specials_toer_pop_rt_d_001_rvs_popup.jpg (oh and an old clunker parked in Amsterdam somewhere). I don’t mind taking the Old Dutch bike on longer rides. In fact, I sometimes use it for recovery rides! Just so as not to be tempted to hammer. Would not be ideal for hilly terrain, though (but they do sell them with 8-sp Nexus thingies).
Bet you think you already know what I'm going to recommend, eh?
Well, you’re wrong. The Salsa Caseroll is my choice for Mrs. Quatroformaggio. They make full bikes with a triple or a single, but strangely no double. Not that you couldn’t manage that yourself. You can put fenders on it, a rear rack, you can tour with it, commute, whatever. Pez did a review once upon a time.
Great Choice
I have a good friend who built up a double Caseroll and she loves it…
Also, I talked her into some awesome lightweight wood fenders from a guy named Cody Davis in Bend, Oregon that we’ve bought several sets from, and her bike officially kicks ass… hers has front and rear racks as she is a fellow “bagger”.
Woody's link
I don’t know why the link didn’t work, but it is www.woodysfenders.com
Great guy and the fenders will get 10 times more comments than any bike… so beware.
Cody does a fantastic job
He’ll make them custom however you want… I don’t have a stake in the guy’s business, honest! He is just a great guy and I can attest to his product… lightweight, durable, and beautiful work
Here are a pair on my fixed gear:


And the surfboard style on my touring bike:

no it’s practicing track stands while everyone else blows by ;)
(sorry itswells had to do it)
by plinytheelder on Jul 15, 2009 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Only one hand?
Poser ;-)
I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man.
Thanks
As I mentioned above, I can’t take credit for the craftsmanship. A young guy named Cody Davis in Bend, Oregon makes them. I can attest for them, though, as I’ve personally ordered 8 sets of them for myself, daughter, and riding buddies… very high quality and a good value all things considered.
his website is www.woodysfenders.com
A couple more pix of them on my fixed gear… for these, I simply called him up and said, “make me something dark and evil” and these are what he sent!


you sir
have good taste in bikes.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 16, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks
but would it change your mind if I told you I rattle-canned that fixie? I built it up myself, but it was stripped, sanded, primered, and then multiple coats of good old Krylon and then clear coated!
It was my favorite bike build ever, though, and this is the bike I ride daily… my next project for this bike (and some of my friends hate the idea) is to put a Jandd rear rack on it that I have lying around and then build custom wood slat grocery panniers for it… probably teak… carrying gorceries in my hunting backpack is getting old!
funny, I've started
recently thinking about making grocery panniers, myself. The purchased ones I have at the moment tend to bend into the spokes. 90% of our grocery shopping is done via bike now, so might as well make it easier.
well cool beans!
We’ll have to share ideas and plans then. Right now, my design is just in my head, but I’m thinking about a sub frame of lightweight aluminum (probably a combination of L-shaped and O-shaped material). Then pre-made flat trim strips… teak, maple, even oak if they are thin enough. Then assemble it all with brass hardware.
I do want to be able to quickly remove them if needed, so probably will buy Arkel hanger kits… they are the simplest and best I’ve ever used, and they Arkel (in Canada) sells them separately. Arkel is great to work with, and I’ve bought a lot from them… they are REAL riders and commuters who build great stuff… off-topic there a bit!
Huh? _Rigid_ grocery panniers?!
Every other family bike in Holland has them for shopping at the local supermarket, but I have never seen anything fancy. Well, maybe for some postman or paper delivery guys with long routes. The regular ones are canvas or plasticky, like http://www.fleximac.nl/fietstas3c.jpg or http://members.home.nl/wilhelmiens/krantentas.htm
correct...
and that is music to my ears that you’ve never seen any nice, wood, rigid grocery panniers… which is exactly why I want to build them. I like different things, and they shall be unique… they will be lighter than those steel folding ones I see, but heavier than canvas ones… but they’ll have STYLE!
The bonus of getting a rack put on the fixie is that I can then strap a beer cooler to it for the local weekend bar-to-bar rides I like so much! ;-)
Never seen them because,
you know, they seem endlessly impractical! Style is good but form over function, hmm maybe not?
true... and I am usually a funtion over form guy
but some of my bikes not so much… like the 10 years I hauled a 40 pound stereo on a 500 mile tour? Bose 151 waterproof speakers, two 12v rechargeable batteries, car amplifier.
But it was fun as hell… and made the ride tougher (better training I guess?)
Besides, the panniers will be lighter than you would think… aluminum and thin, strong wood strips are lighter than you think. I’ll weight them when I’m done and report, but I’ll bet they will be significantly lighter than the popular Wald steel fold-downs.
But yes, the fact that they will match my wood fenders and blend nicely with my honey Brooks saddle is a factor… I can’t lie!
weight is not the issue
so much as crunchability (of the panniers) and scrape-danger (to other people and objects), I suspect. And I suspect this based on my cargo trike, which is of course much less adaptable than removable panniers. If you haven’t been lurking long enough to see it, check out this thread.
here are some better photos of my
home cooked fixed gear… I’ll add photos with my wood panniers when I complete them… I now have renewed motivation to get off my ass and build them!
in Holland…
The regular ones are canvas or plasticky, like http://members.home.nl/wilhelmiens/krantentas.htm
Whoa, ya’ll are pretty small in Holland.
Or is your pannier maker a godzilla-sized monster?

Rigid, for me
is practical in that it keeps the panniers/groceries out of my spokes. And by groceries, I mean sixes of Sierra Nevada IPA or bottles of wine. They make an awful racket when the weight shifts and pushes the pannier into my rear spokes. I supposed that would be less of a problem if I had fenders or a rack that protected the whole wheel.
good points
The racks that I use almost exclusively are the Jandd Expedition racks… the design helps keep my big rear panniers well away from the rear wheel. Loads are much more stable.
A bit spendy ($80 or so), but heavy duty, made in the USA aluminum.

and then there is this guy
who made fenders and panniers out of recycled coroplast signs!
http://kentsbike.blogspot.com/2007/01/tobys-coroplast-panniers-fenders.html
In honour of the VDS team Team Atala
Staring at the swim team gets you killed by a gang of dancing ninja men who know how to twirl.
by TheFigurehead on Jul 15, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I have
one of those hot old blue and, well, silver striped jerseys. And I’m not sharing it.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 15, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
but yeah then I guess you shouldn’t get one for her – I had an ex-girlfriend who once bought the exact same commuter bike as me, it was so lame, never wanted to ride with her
by plinytheelder on Jul 15, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
She has
a 1997 Telekom jersey. Granted, our 2-y.o. keeps stealing it, but she’s styled out.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 15, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Build it up yourself
Also, as you likely know, building the bike up from a frame can be a blast. You usually end up spending a bit more, but you get to pick and choose exactly how you want your/her bike.
Currently, every bike I have was built up from a frame… just my preference…
According to the gal comparison shopping in the bike store saturday
Wether it has several gears, three gears or none doesn’t matter. Neither does the weight. But it has to have a “swoopy” top tube, come in blue, and cost under $250.
heh
And you’re in Pittsburgh? I’d think gears would matter quite a bit. Certainly do here, since we live on a hill with a max grade of 14%.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 15, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
At one of the two almost side-by-side bike stores on Squirrel Hill, in fact.
I murmured something about “test rides being helpful.” Got a scornful look. Maybe it’s an accessory.
lol
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 15, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Get a tandem, like we did....
then you get a new bike too….
BAH!!!!....Cavendish?!
Would love to
but who will watch the kids?
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 15, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
an actual serious comment--albeit predictable--
Don’t rule out the small-wheel bikes (and/or folders) if you want a lightweight, upright, city commuter. Sure, you’ll pay if you want to go under 20 lbs on a Dahon or equivalent, but the ride’s actually really nice even on a heavier bike, and it’s stable because the weight is low. You can add more swept-back handlebars if you don’t need it to fold much. Hey, just ride one before you dismiss the idea out of hand.
hm
OK. BTW, Mrs. Quattro Formaggio is reading the forum here.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 15, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Greetings Mrs. Q!
Allow me to speak for all of us who assemble here regularly, a motley crew of cycling geeks and freaks, who inhabit (almost) every continent and corner of the globe, not to mention Dan, and say “thank you” for allowing your husband to devote countless hours to our amusement when certainly he could be helping you out in more productive ways from a family obligations perspective. Someday you will be rewarded handsomely. And while you are waiting for that to happen, you will get a sweet new bike out of the deal. Which is something.
Greetings to you all!
I’ve heard a lot about you. I must admit, whenever I come to the site to try to connect with whatever this is that eats up so much of Chris’s time, I am immediately perplexed. But this thread I can wrap my head around. I love the fenders. Many cool bikes here. Thanks for the tips and the pictures!
Right
You always take the high road
"I get paid to hurt other people. How good is that? How good is that?
I get paid to make other people suffer on my wheel, that's good." Jens!
Mrs. Q, Thank you for your immeasurable patience.
We consider your hubby to be like a father around these parts. And you a hero.
by ZoeRochelle on Jul 15, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey, who's watching the kids while you two are yakking about bikes?
I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man.
Vesus
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 16, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh - I'm sure they're completely safe
I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man.
I like my downtube for commuting, but it's made in china
Mini. , 8 speed internal hub…for under $525…Folded size: approx 10″ × 20″ × 29″ Weight: 24.5 lbs.
Rider Height: 4’9"-6’2"
Here it is!
I think this is the perfect bike for your wife…the Viva Bellissimo—

And it is bellissimo! It may be hard to track one down, but it might be worth looking into.
Viva Bikes
by Merry Crankster on Jul 15, 2009 4:43 PM EDT reply actions
I knew that was danish before I even clicked the link
Just beautiful. Even nicer than the Centurion Basic that I have owned 4 of over the years (bikethieves, may you get rotting saddlesores, you bastiges).
I don’t know about Mrs Q but I have found my next bike.
Scott Speedster?
I know a couple folks with flatbar versions of the Scott Speedster. They seem to like them.
Interested in a 53cm Basso frame, circa 1986?
Blue, w/headset, 27.2.
Could throw in some Campy SR cranks (52/42. 170 or 53/42. 172.5) Maybe even Mavic MA-40 wheels on campy sr-hubs . . .
Throw on some decent bars, etc . . .
eh...
hm… I suspect that’s a few cm too big, but if we get a fit this weekend and that sounds about right, I’ll get back to you. Thanks!
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 16, 2009 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions
It was my mother's
(not kidding).
Currently she rolls a 48 specialized dolce elite (w/annoying pink bits)—but it fits her better.
Since I'm a bike fitter,
I would want to know your wife’s height and inseam (floor to crotch measurement, not pant inseam), as a starting point. If she is 5’5", or shorter, I’d start to look into some of the true women’s specific bikes (like Terry or Luna).
For a great primer on frame geometry basics for shorter riders, check out this series of videos from Georgena Terry.
I know it's silly, so do tell me off here
but whenever I start looking into this properly, as someone of 5ft I end up feeling a bit miserable (so miserable, in fact, that last time I ended up buying a kitchen instead. Having said that, I did need a kitchen…).
Truth be told, it’s partly I’m being a bit snobby about women’s bikes (though I probably could be convinced), but it’s also partly never having found an LBS that I was entirely convinced by on this issue. I probably need to be sold a bike by someone who’s a similar height, in the way I always ask short cool-looking shop assistants which jeans they’re wearing…
5 ft is difficult, but not impossible
Don’t be put off by the girliness factor of many of the women’s bikes – at this point, the quality is good, and the main difference is the size and little things like short reach breaks and narrower bars. A roady set-up to a women’s spec can be pretty sweet. Pretty key to find a bike shop that isn’t lame when it comes to selling to women. Grrr, don’t make me rant about bike shops being lame.
Okay, Okay, I admit, I’m like 5’10" So, don’t listen to me ;-)
Agreed. Agreed. Agreed.
I can’t stress enough how much I love my Trek WSD road bike. We bend differently and have a different waist to shoulder ratio and other random things and bits that they take into consideration in the design. Women specific bikes make such a HUGE difference. Boys are cool and all, but they are just built different. (I’m 5’7", by the way.)
And, yeah, don’t get me started about how bike shops sell to women. We have boycotted a bike shop here for years because of the way I was treated by the salesperson when I went in alone to buy a bike. (“Really, this orange bike is what you want…it’s pretty.”) Grrr.
lol
At least, he didn’t try to sell you the pink one. Heh, used to make me very irked when I was racing and randomly went to shop where I didn’t know the employees and got girled – and not in a good way. Still does, really.
Women’s geometry bikes are sweet – so stoked that the industry put resources into this direction. Before, a shorter woman – or even a long-legged woman – would have to buy a custom ride, which kept many women from even considering playing bikeys. Now, more bikes, more fun.
All that said, I ride a standard geo road frame. No way could I fit the short top tube women’s rides. Gav = mutant ;-)
As a guy, I have to ask
Is there a good way to get girled? I feel like I’m totally missing something here. I’m suddenly feeling out of the loop.
I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man.
I think the equivalent
is to get “fred-ed”
Kinda like the Animal House scene where the ethnic kids and losers get shunted away . . . except that getting fred-ed means the shop-rat starts showing you the electra cruisers.
Ahhhhhhhh, now it makes sense.
I’ve been reversed Fred-ed: there’s an LBS that looks right through and around guys like me just trying to be a fucking tube, instead killing themselves to get to the Fred walking through the front door with a “I can afford a custom 7 frame, but I couldn’t tell you who Eddy Merckx is” look to them.
I hate that shop with a passion.
I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man.
Also um...
If you’re willing to spend kitchen style money on a bike, there are at least two good custom builders who specialize more or less exclusively in making serious bikes for women:
and
I don’t know about English builders, but here one of the real functions of the custom shops is to make high quality bikes for people who are hard to fit with standard sizes, and a good builder should have a pretty good idea how to make that work and be willing to work with you to do it.
si, they are good
But at this point, the production bike options for women are also very good, as long as you look carefully at the fit and parts. There’s no need any more to buy a custom bike, that’s one of the great things about the industry offering the women’s specific options. Now, if they could just make them in some other color than pink…
Yes one of the women who works at my LBS...
…and I had an entire conversation about what is wrong with the major US maker they sell’s graphics department, and her contribution was the expected attack on the WSD designs.
(the sad thing is that this could apply to more or less any of the major us makers: men’s bikes have graphics that make them look like GI joe or transformers action figures from the 80s, women’s bikes are all pretty pastel colors and flowers, basically, the my little pony school of graphic design. Its juvenile on both ends if you ask me.)
The depressing thing though
is you would never think there’d be a market for girly pink mobile phones, for instance. But there is & it’s huge. I suspect the same’s probably true with bikes, alas… But yeah.
Oh no.
Once people know I’m a fitter, the dreaded crank length question will invariably be raised.
In the words of Dr. Arnie Baker (from his excellent publication Bike Fit, 4th edition):
“Rules of Thumb
Inseam to 31": 170 mm crankarms
Inseam 31 – 33 inches: 172.5 mm crankarms
Inseam 33 or more inches: 175 mm crankarms
There has been much debate, some empiric evidence, and little convincing scientific study to support the above recommendations."
I’ve read many articles, all of them seem to make sense and support their arguments quite well, but in the end will come to completely different conclusions.
My advice: Crank arm length should be proportional to a cyclist’s size. Unfortunately, if you are tall or short, you are going to probably spend $$$ in order to make this work for you, as the major component manufacturers just don’t give you many options. Also, if you are a masher, then a slighter longer crank would be justified. Conversely, if you are a spinner (100+ rpms), then a slightly shorter crank might make sense (many track riders prefer a shorter crank length than the one their road bikes).
To answer your question, this Leonard Zinn article is a pretty good primer.
by The Team Chef on Jul 16, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks
Just a bit of idle thought, on my part. Have been trying to sort why a friend (who will not be going for a proper fit anytime soon) seems to be so challenged on her bike (which fits, by all appearances). She has ridiculously short legs, though, and I’ve wondered if the crank issue is relevant.
Quite possibly, but
there really could be any number of different issues at work. I assume when you say “challenged” you are implying that she is just slow. How tall is your friend? If she is 5’6" or taller, I doubt crank length is holding her back, as she is probably on 170mm or 172.5 mm, which really should work just fine, provided her overall saddle height is in the right range. Often times folks with really long or short legs (particularly the femur) relative to their torso will find that their knees are either way behind, or way in front, the center of the bottom bracket; that can certainly have a major impact on performance.
by The Team Chef on Jul 16, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
She’s 5’4", maybe, with an inseam that is on the short end of the bell curve. Also in excellent shape, and absurdly flexible. By challenged, I mean that she seems unable to sustain any sort of decent speed over time. Her pace just seems all out of proportion to everything else she can do, and after a fair bit of exploring the various possibilities, I’d just started to wonder if crank length might be playing into it.
Anyway, not pitching you for free advice. But appreciate the links.
fyi
Sounds a lot like what my girl went through. She got a bike, and the guys at the shop fit her. It looked pretty good, I had her lower the saddle a bit, but it looked good. After a few months she was getting frustrated by her lack of progress. She went and got a pro bike fit, and the guy raised her bars by probably 25mm and dropped her saddle by 30mm and he put some shims in her cleats. When I saw the bike, I was skeptical. When I saw her on it, I was dubious. When she was able to ride with me on climbs she hadn’t been able to ride with me on before I was stunned. She easily gained 2-3 mph on the flats, was comfortable far longer and enjoyed the whole experience a lot more.
A good bike fit by someone who knows what he’s doing is more than worth it.
"I get paid to hurt other people. How good is that? How good is that?
I get paid to make other people suffer on my wheel, that's good." Jens!
So true. The foot/pedal interface is absolutely critical.
If your pelvis is tilted, if you have a leg length discrepancy, if your q factor (stance width) is off, if your cleats aren’t aligned, or if you have forefoot varus/vulgus, all kinds of bad stuff can happen. At the very least, you’ll never realize your full potential.
Also, the #1 problem among competitive cyclists is a saddle to handlebar drop that is simply too extreme; they want to look like the pros. The problem is many pros also could use to raise their bars a little. The bike makers also photograph their bikes with ridiculous setups that many try to emulate, along with many mechanics at bike shops. Look as some old pictures of Fausto Coppi; he wasn’t towering 5 feet above his bars.
by The Team Chef on Jul 16, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
VERY Excellent point
Too high of a saddle height is one of the top mistakes by amateurs and recreational cyclists. It isolates the lower back and glutes too much, and makes it difficult to use upper body strength when climbing, particularly seated climbing.
It looks to me that you are providing great expert advice, as fit is paramount to just about everything else… even when a bike is the right size, I see so many people riding with crappy seat height and/or fore/aft positioning.
Thanks for the great input and advice… quite valuable for all of us to review.
guilty as charged
until recently, anyway.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 17, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
adding, on the q factor issue
For many women, the q factor on 10 speed ends up being very narrow relative to our slightly wider hips and can really impinge the pedalling motion. I have narrow hips as women go, but I have my q factor adjusted outward on the road – I simply can’t ride with my feet pulled in to the standard width.
I think this is pretty key and often overlooked.
I have pedal extenders, if that's what this is about. Very helpful.
but it makes it easy to toe out, and get in a bad habit that way.
Hmm
Not sure what you mean by toe out.
I use two pedal washers between my pedals and cranks – and it’s just enough for me. You can also buy speedplays with differing spindle lengths.
sorry, that's ambiguous
Not as in wheels (which makes no sense on a bike anyway) but as in feet—the opposite of pigeon-toed.
If you, like I, tend to toe outwards, then extra space means you can stick your feet woefully out of alignment without your heels hitting the bike. (Speedplay frogs give a lot of float. Platform pedals are infinite float. So no real constraint there.) Toes out when climbing uses the wrong muscles, encourages further leg misalignment, and eventual trips to physiotherapy to find out “why is more exercise making my legs weaker and my lower back tighter?”
I love what I do, so I don't mind helping.
Besides, its not like you live around the corner from me (San Diego). Take a look at the instructions I left for Chris a few posts downstream. If you can get me these measurements from your friend, and get me her frame make, model, year, and size, I can at least see if she’s on a frame that’s in the right ballpark. Just shoot me an email when you get the information together at either bikfit@yahoo.com or theteamchef@yahoo.com
by The Team Chef on Jul 16, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Is she a Dachshund?
I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man.
Wouldn't that only matter when you're going really, really slow?
You tend to be somewhat perpendicular to the banking surface — that’s kinda the point, right?
Given the speaker
I assumed that was the original intent of the question.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 16, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I should have clarified something.
The fit issues adressed by Terry, specifically the problem of overly steep seat tube angles on small frames, is not one faced by women alone, but by all shorter riders.
I should also point out that many “women specific designs” are doing a great job with the component choices (i.e. wider saddles, smaller handlebar width and drop, shorter crank lengths, shorter stem lengths, and short-reach brake levers). Certainly, these choices are a vast improvement over what used to be available for women, but that said, the fundamental problem of poor frame design for shorter cyclists has not been properly addressed by most of the big players. Taller cyclists (6’2"+ will also suffer a similar fate, but usually for the opposite reason – the seat tube is too shallow).
Another good resource for exploring this issue further would be the Nuevation Cycles geometry page. You’ll notice that all his frames have consistent seat tube angles across all sizes. John Neugent is certainly not the only frame builder who does this, but his explanation of “reach” is the best I’ve read for the layperson. While you’re visiting I would also check out some of the amazing prices on his bikes (no, I don’t work for him).
Okay, that’s enough for now. Sorry to ramble, but it’s my job, so I tend to be a little anal rententive when someone asks me for bike buying advice.
by The Team Chef on Jul 16, 2009 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok now I'm interested in what you think of Cervelo's critique of WSD as a whole.
I’m assuming you’ve seen that.
I agree.
This is the exactly the same thing John Nuegent (Nuevation) is saying. Specifically, that shortening (or lengthening) the top tube length by changing the seat tube angle is not the best way to design a frame. The net result is that many “WSD” bikes still are not going to fit shorter riders, and many women are still going to be too stretched out over the top tube; this will also hold true for men who buy smaller frames. Cervelo bikes, like Nuevation, have the same seat tube angles across all of their sizes, and I’m pretty sure this is the Pro Tour supplier to whom John referred in his frame geometry discussion (the link is above in an earlier post).
If I’m a short rider (5’5" or less), I would be wary about buying a bike with a seat tube angle steeper than 74 degrees. This a generalization, and if you have relatively short thighs (femur length) combined with relatively long torso, then the steeper angles may be justified.
This discussion is pertinent to traditional road bike fit, as TT specific and Tri specific design are different animals altogether.
by The Team Chef on Jul 16, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok, thank you...
…I remember reading that piece and thinking it made an awful lot of sense, but I’m so far from being an expert (I’m still riding the same bike I bought new in 1985) that it’s silly.
Hey Chef
is it possible to do an approximate fitting in advance of buying? Are there some basic body measurements you take to figure out frame size? Obviously a REAL fit requires tinkering with saddle, stem, etc. But I am torn between going to a shop and getting her fit, even when we’re probably not buying from that shop, and doing it ourselves.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 16, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Here's some very rough rules of thumb.
1. Measure her overall height
Have your wife stand against a wall in her cycling socks, heels against the wall, and feet close together. Make sure the floor is a hard surface. Place a book, ruler, level, or any other flat surface on top of her head (I use a carpenter’s square), perpendicular to the wall. Mark the wall and record the height. Take this measurement three times and average the result. Also it’s best to use centimeters, rather than inches.
.
2. Take an accurate measurement of her inseam.
Here’s is how you take an inseam measurement:
a. Find a stool that is about 20" inches tall (make sure you measure the stool from the floor to top of the stool. Record the number, you’ll need it in a moment).
b.Have her sit on the stool with her back against the wall in her cycling shorts. Make sure she’s sitting up straight (no slouching allowed). Now measure her height while seated, just like you did in step 1. Again, take the measurement 3x, and get the average.
c. Subtract the stool height (a) from the seated height (b) and record the number.
d. Subtract the answer from step “c” from the overall height (step 1). Voila. You now have a very accurate inseam measurement.
This is a far better way than the traditional method of taking a book, or level, and ramming it up between the crotch while standing against the wall. The seated method provides far more accurate results. Many people will discover that their previous inseam measurements were off by more than 2 cm.
3. Multiply inseam by .66 for an approximate seat tube length (measured center-to-center).
4. Divide height (1) by inseam (2).
If the answer is more than 2.2, your wife has a relatively long torso. She will need a bike with at least as long a top tube, or even 1-2 cm longer than, the frame size (seat tube length). .
If height divided by inseam is less than 2.0, she has relatively long legs, and will need a bike with a top tube 2 cm shorter than her frame size (seat tube length).
Most people will discover they land in between the extremes, and don’t need a custom frame.
Remember, the seat tube angle should fall within a fairly typical range (usually 72.5 to 74 degrees), or else the top tube estimates listed above are going to be of little value. As I’ve mentioned earlier, it’s usually the short and tall that are on frames that don’t fit them. Women very often fall into this category, usually because the reach is too long.
Again, these are very rough rules of thumb, but should work pretty well as a starting point to get the correct frame size selected.
by The Team Chef on Jul 16, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
thank you!
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 16, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Your welcome.
For all the hard work you put into this site, it’s the least I can do.
by The Team Chef on Jul 16, 2009 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
This is extraordinarily helpful, just for the inseam measurement method alone...
…not to mention the rest of it.
What type of riding does she do?
I ride with a lot of women of different ages (I’m 60). We all ride socially, sometimes on trails where it’s flat but mostly we ride in the Virginia or Maryland countryside where it’s hilly. We almost all have road bikes. Most everyone started out with something else but they soon switched. Road bikes can be found that are more upright than others.
social to exercising
it’s an emerging thing. I suspect exercise will wind up increasing in importance as the kids get more manageable.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 16, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I was gonna do this earlier but, here's another route you could go...but you have to read thru my setup first.
Back in April, my neighbor’s were cleaning out their garage. I rolled up on my fixed gear, (yes that’s right I said fixed gear) and commence chitting and chatting. Mrs Neighbor says “hey, your wife want a bike? It’s 30 years old and only has about 30 miles on it.” “As a matter of fact, I’m planning to buy her one for her 40th birthday”, says I. I looked closely, and despite dry-rotted tires and a missing taillight, it was just very, very dirty. So I said “sure.” It became my all-consuming project for the next few weeks. I removed and polished every single nut & bolt, repacked hubs, bottom bracket and headset; replaced tubes, tires, cables & chain. Polished all the chrome (including the bell) to a sparkling luster and…

It’s kinda retro-cool and somewhat labor intensive, but she seems to appreciate it (or at least pretend to). It was a real head-turner at my LBS. The bike was free and I probably spent just over $100 for new stuff.
There is a goofy fixie conversion of one of these
that I pass by almost every day. Same color even. Yours is significantly less stupid looking.
that's very cool
will be stopping by craigslist at some point in this process.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 16, 2009 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions
VERY cool Peugeot
nice score… one would have to pay a LOT of money to get the same cool factor at that old Pug (and probably still not be as cool in my book, but I’m a sucker for anything nostalgic).
Masi is very cute
but I question the utility of a top tube that’s curved up. If she’s flexible and long-legged and used to a regular (non ladies bike) frame, she can, of course, effortlessly throw her leg over the back of the bike like she’s supposed to, for mount and dismount. If she’s got some other conformation, or was raised on “girl bikes,” she may intend to step over the top tube for a quick dismount, and find that the really stylish curve is in the way. I like itswell’s mixte or some other lower tube for a city bike. If things get hairy at an intersection, you can jump yourself onto the curb, without having to jump the bike onto the curb. Call me middle aged and frumpy for doing such things, but it’s saved my bacon. Or anyway, I believe it has, which gives me a more “can do” attitude.
Long legged and flexible
I would say … Never mind.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 15, 2009 9:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
inexpensive?
Surly’s Long Haul Trucker, complete, is $1,100 list. Swapping to mustache bars will give you something like… ah, ok, here we go, see below, courtesy of google images.
Leave the steerer uncut and/or add a riser to bring everything back upright if you like.
It’s available via any bike shop in the U.S., since it’s distributed through QBP. See? If you’re on the inside with your LBS, then you might be able to get it for under list if they’re game.

Good choice
With the trucker frame, one has to make sure that the wheelbase isn’t too long. I built one up for my daughter (below) and it fits her perfectly… She rides sometimes with heavy loads in hills, so I went with a mountain drivetrain, as well as bonbproof Salsa freeride rims.
One note on the Long Haul Trucker. It takes 26" wheels for frames 54cm and smaller… and 700c for frames 56cm and up… GREAT VALUE and I also have 3 other good friends who ride truckers.

oh and I also put kick ass wood feners on her trucker
very dirty ride that day, but you can sort of see them, along with my old ’Dale beside it…

My daughter's bike
is the blue Long Haul Trucker against the gueard rail. I don’t think she had a curling iron, but she does have one of those butane jobbies.
Mine is the one with the green Arkel panniers, cooler, PBR tap (just because I like it) and the Barbie doll (taken from my daughter’s collection when she was 6… she had two of the same and said I could have the one… Barbie has been my riding companion ever since, but my daughter tells everyone that she never would have let me have her if she’d have known all that she would have gone through and seen.
A few questions . . . . .
Chris – What is the intended use of the bicycle?
A commuter?
Weekend rides around Seattle?
A randonneur perhapes?
Next, has she been given a proper bike fit?
What are her preferences?
What are her favorite colors?
What is the driving force for her to get a bike?
purpose
riding with the kids, but it would likely turn into some exercise and longer stuff at some point.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 16, 2009 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Do you use your uber badass bike to go ride with the kids?
I doubt it.
So, maybe you should think about getting a step through like what Bethie suggested.
Or perhaps pick something up over at Recycled Cycles?
Or maybe a cool mixte bike off Craigslist.
I’m sure you get get something dialed for her to cruise with the kids and off to the coffee shop, or the occasional grocery run.
Heck, I would do one up and then also use it for the same reasons when she is not.
Then, I’d totally dial in some kick ass bike for longer rides that is, or should be at about the UCI weight minimum.
For that, take the time and start with getting her a pro fit.
Plan to buy about 5 different saddles.
Also get her the BEST riding shorts you can find for her bum. That’ll take a few test runs also.
The best thing I can tell you is if you shoot for the middle, you won’t hit either target very well.
It is better to seperate these two needs into to bikes.
‘Cause I’m sure you have more then one bike also . . . .
Hey Ryan
Haven’t seen you around for awhile. Have you been all taiwaned up at work?
(sorry, it’s bad-joke-week here)
Yes, but for a good cause. . . . .
. . . as this is the main time for the Product Development of the 2011 model year.
That’s right folks! Most bike companies are hard at work on 2011, and even 2012.
Well, that and I was getting a bit turned off by some remarks posted lately so I’m really glad that Crashdan took the bull by the horns on that.
I think in the future, you’ll only see me talk about product.
Don't let the tweekers win!
Come on, Ryan. Please don’t just limit yourself to product talk. You have much to contribute here on other topics and your opinions are valued. This is the sort of thing that really pisses me off about trolls. They stink up the joint and drive the rational people away.
Via Craigslist - Biria Classic Dutch 3 speed - $275 (west seattle)
Pretty cool bike for ridng around with the kids.
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/bik/1263388912.html
Then get her something light and sexy for the longer rides.
You wanna ride a bike with your wife?
Get a tandem.
If I had listened to this sage advice from Nelo Breda, we would have saved $1400 on the bike she never rides any more.
Heh.
Many people have suggested, “Hey! You guys should ride a tandem!”
Mark and I agree that one of us would throw the other one off the tandem in the first mile of the ride. We decided to save our relationship and continue to ride on our own bikes…
Yep
Right there with ya. We have enountered that often here at the Shack, and really, it would never work.
Also, some women are perfectly capable of riding right along side thank you very much.
but have you tried one?
They’re something else entirely.
In one extreme, going from a road bike on the road to a fixie on the track strips away everything that’s non-essential about the bicycle experience. Cycling on the track is something completely pure.
Going from a road bike to a tandem, especially for a new team, the team dimension consumes a huge amount of the mindshare.
Just as a track fixie is so much more about cycling compared to operating road bike on the road, so is riding a tandem so much less. ;)
But, seriously, everyone should try it. Tandems are so bleedin’ fast, they’re awesome. The flatter or more downward the incline, the greater the advantage. They have a bad reputation as being slow since, when climbing hills, the wind advantage is lost.
For this particular couple in our local club, they sometimes tandem and sometimes ride their singles. She climbs better than he does. He captains. She stokes. She also steers the bike through high-speed turns from the stoker’s position — and, yes, it’s a conventional bike. Here, take a look at the left turn @9:18.
If somebody feels like a loser for stoking a tandem, they may have some image issues, or, more likely, they’re simply riding with jerks — jerks who don’t appreciate an amazing draft!
-Greg
If somebody feels like a loser for stoking a tandem, they may have some image issues, or, more likely, they’re simply riding with jerks — jerks who don’t appreciate an amazing draft!
OR — I forgot to add — the captain isn’t familiar with the proper method, in which case the stoker’s best option is to get off of that bike.
I remember watching Track Worlds in Sicily
on the open air track with gorgeous deep blue sky contrasting with the wooden banking, and then the tandem sprints. Awesome!
Tandems are frigging amazing on rolling hills.
If you kick it a bit on the downhill, you generally are 3/4 of the way up the next rise before you have to shift or pedal harder. Seattle area has more hills that are either steeper or longer, and they’re kinda pointless on those.
They’re also great when you’ve got that midwestern constant headwind—world’s closest draft.
tandems are my In Case of Emergency option
when I’ve felt like I was really flagging near the end of some centuries. They’re fast and predictable. Just latch on and they’ll drag you home.
my first century was on the tandem
me: “Ok pretty soon we’ll have that big climb. I’ve been taking it a bit easy to save up for that.”
stoker: “Um, I haven’t.”
Ehhh d’oh!
Guess I was getting pushed home on that ride at that point!
I’ve read of a tandem team who wears HRMs, but the captain and stoker swap computers. Each only sees the other’s HR. ;)
lol
A friend was messing around with one for a while, but I never had a chance to ride one. They look fun, because as you say they’re really fast.
But generally, when I get the “you should get a tandem” comment, it is not from the perspective of they’re fast and silly fun ;-)
At the risk of certain responses (Sui, I'm looking at you)
It is possible to have a tandem with two women, you know. Avoiding any implied gender stereotypes. Strongish shoulders / arms are all that’s really required for steering. A Tall/short or tall/med team will help you find a used tandem easier, but there actually are short/tall or short/short tandem frame options.
I may have been preempted, but I am terribly
disappointed in the rest of you not rising to the occasion.
tandems are sometimes called...
“relationship accelerators” — wherever your relationship is going, they’ll get you there faster. :P
LMAO
That is funny, and I’d never heard that term…. and so true.
I still remember what I read in a Bicycling article 15 years ago or so, which was (paraphrased):
The number one positive of riding a tandem with your wife is, no matter the terrain, she is always one foot away from you. The number one negative of riding a tandem with your wife is, no matter the terrain, she is always one foot away from you.
Perfect!
Unfortunately it’ll do the same to my checking account.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 16, 2009 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Orbea also make a great range of ladies bikes.
Admittedly my Diva is at the higher end (and a road bike), but I absolutely adore it and they do make what you would probably term as “commuter” type bikes.
"If winning isn't everything, then why do they keep score?" Unknown
plus
I don’t know if I feel right about funding Euskaltel. I would want more in return.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 16, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Chris
Some of us (especially me), kind of got off-track from your original question…
It looks like there are some excellent suggestions, and advice from people who know a hell a lot more about the topic than myself.
I do like the Surly LHT suggestions, mainly because I’ve built one up for my daughter… not a lightweight though, as the frame is around 5 pounds… but very comfortable and durable. Also not a US made frame at $400 or so.
I’ll think more about it, after now reading the intended purpose of the bike.
No-one can do it for you
Some of the whittling-down factors: 700c or 26" hybrid; diamond or ‘ladies’ frame style (i.e. basket on front, lots of step-thru space); drops or flats; derailleur v hub gear.
It’s your wife’s choice in the end, no-one out here can tell you the ideal choice. I’m sure your wife (with a little support from you) will surely be able to decide for herself which looks and feels ‘right’. And if you narrow it down to two models and can’t decide there’s nothing wrong with choosing a bike for the colour. No, seriously, I mean it.
And anyway this is the very best excuse in the world to visit a string of bicycle shops! Enjoy it.

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