Astana Headed to Oblivion; What Next?
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 21, 2009 3:01 PM EDT
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PrintLots of informational nuggets are flying around today concerning the future of the World's Greatest Collection of Stage Racers. There are a lot of comments in the post-stage thread, but this subject needs its own post. Here's what we know:
* Johan Bruyneel confirmed today that he will not be part of "Astana" after this season. Presumably this is driven by Alexandre Vinokourov's stated intention to return to Cycling and hijack the team for his own redemption tour, which nobody outside Kazakhstan wants anything to do with. Well, certainly not Bruyneel.
* Lance Armstrong just twittered:
Making a very cool announcement on Thursday re: a new American partner for our team in 2010 (and beyond). Stay tuned!
OK then. Obviously that's a huge deal, so we wait for Thursday, or for the springing of leaks.
* Biggest question: What happens to the Accountant? Alberto Contador told VN/Sporza that he's heard nothing about Bruyneel leaving. This in turn is fueling speculation that he plans to join a newly-formed Spanish team, but that's all speculation. If Contador also hasn't heard about the new American partner, then it'd be more than speculation.
* Second biggest question: who gets the Pro Tour license? A new post-Astana team made up of the current version, with or without Contador, would be Pro-Tour-worthy, while a new squad built around the disgraced and unrepentant Vinokourov would be a complete pariah. But if Astana own the license, then it will take some doing (re. lawsuits) to dislodge it and transfer it to the new Bruyneel team.
* Last item: three American teams?!?! What planet is this again?
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New American partner?
Please let it be Kraft Macaroni & Cheese! Or better yet, Velveeta!
That’d be to much for me to handle…combining the 2 most awesomest things on the planet – bicycles and Mac & Cheez.
Nope.
Itswells is NOT saying the 3 most awesome things on the planet are bikes, macaroni, and cheese. itswells is saying the 2 most awesome things on the planet are bikes and the dish known as “macaroni and cheese.” Two things, not three.
Throughout the stage all I kept on thinking was: ‘don’t finish second, you can’t finish second again’.--Heinrich Haussler
lighten up francis
was just having fun
by elmundo_enfuego on Jul 21, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I was afraid we might have to explain "mac & cheese" to the euro-crowd, but then I remembered...
When I was in Scotland once, I stopped in a small convenience store for a snack…little, individually wrapped, microwaveable mac & cheese pies! They put a lot of stuff in pies in Scotland; one of the reasons it’s my second favorite country.
forgive the pedantic tone, but... huh... scotland is a nation, not a country
lived in the bay area for a dozen years and never got the m&c thing… must be some kind of culltural issue
any pasta and cheese sauce...
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
If Astana folding and Contandor going to CdE..
and LA mounting “Velo Velveeta” or what have….means keeping Vino out of cycling….so be it. Any thing to avoid that C%@NT coming back.
BAH!!!!....Cavendish?!
TLP 7.0 Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent
I enjoyed Vino, put some life in to the tour when it was very boring.
by whistlingmountain on Jul 21, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
meh
Vino’s attacks were strategically pointless and usually resulted in damage only to himself and his own team.
Probably Hinault’s favorite rider . . .
Um, did you see him win Liege
in a 40 km breakaway w/ Jens Voigt? That was a race of beauty! Did you see the naked fear in Lance and everyone else’s eyes on Stage 9 in 2003? Having Vino in a race means that no one can count on brokering a back-room deal not to ride hard. W/ a rider like Vino, a three week race can’t be reduced to a highlight reel. He adds unpredictability and emotion to a race.
Truth be told, Vino rides with anger and agression, he will make the race. This is much more worthy than cautious riders who ride in fear and hope just not to make a mistake.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
I'm only saying this because we KNOW it to be true (see my signature)
He is, without doubt, a CHEAT!!
How can you admire that?
BAH!!!!....Cavendish?!
TLP 7.0 Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent
by bradBordeaux on Jul 21, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I tend to agree.
A la Ricco, it’s really easy to make crazy attack after crazy attack when you’re doped to the gills. Not so much, one thinks, when one has to deal with the ordinary physiology of recovery and what not.
I shouldn't get so bothered....never bothers me when I line up with them every weekend.
BAH!!!!....Cavendish?!
TLP 7.0 Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent
by bradBordeaux on Jul 21, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
To be frank...
…given my own stance on the way in which the multiple jeapordy some of these guys are exposed to by the current mess that is the ‘legal’ system surrounding doping, I shouldn’t blame him much too. But the attitude involved in demanding to be reinstated by Astana or else JB, who’s won how many grand tours there, would have to go is pretty assholish. There’s being sensible about your own legal position, and being a giant tool. They don’t have to be the same thing.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
Indeed
but follow the money. If you look at JB’s web page, it states the mission of Team Astana: “He is also responsible for carrying out the Team’s mission – to foster Kazakhstan pride and develop the next generation of Kazakh riders.”
Astana isn’t paying JB tens of millions a year because they love him. They are paying for national pride, and a big part of what they get for their money is a stage for Kazahk cyclists.
I’ll agree that Vino can be an asshat, even if I still like him, but it isn’t being an arsehole to demand you get what you’ve paid for.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
I don't know about that
JB knows full well from personal experience exactly how hard it was and what it cost to renovate Astana’s image to the point where they’d be allowed to ride the TDF and other ASO races again.
Vino on Astana = Astana back in the wilderness. If you’re goal is to develop Khazak cycling at the highest level, then possibly you let your current aging pariah twist in the wind for the sake of the experience that your next generation gets as junior members on the strongest stage racing team in the world. Long run, I’d bet that’s more valuable and leads more places than indulging Vino’s ego.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
Spot on Bevin!
Well stated Ed. Vino’s return will have only a negative cumulative effect on Kazach cycling.
"…I saw bloody Cavendish coming, really fast…"
HH
except he was still the only one attacking when 90% of the field was doped.
by whistlingmountain on Jul 21, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Once again, you assume an awful lot with unverifiable statistics...
…and as others have pointed out, all this occurred at a moment when the sport was trying, seriously, to clean up.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
the shoddy testing forces me to do so, but I am speaking of 5/6 years ago, not last year
I do not admire him as a person, I think he’s an ass, and he deserved the ban.
I do think his racing personality IS more aggressive whether he dopes or not. He risks bonking for success. Something very few riders do now a days.
Since a couple dominant riders showed that riding conservatively when you’re the best will most likely net you the victory, many of the secondary competitors do the very same to net themselves top 10 or top 5 finishes, when that is boring for the viewership. I root for the individual stage winners far more than the guys that roll on in in 9th.
by whistlingmountain on Jul 21, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Which Tour was it when Vino was dropped first day in the Alps?
Then went on a tear and won over the Galibier the next day…? Gah, what a jerk. I love to see him get his ass handed to him.
"…I saw bloody Cavendish coming, really fast…"
HH
just to help your next rant
remember when Vino won on the Champs Elysée? ;)
sometimes life is a false flat
the only recovery I ever saw like that was the Landis
Glandon bonk, next day Joux-Plane miracle
sometimes life is a false flat
Are you thinking of 2007
when he busted a chain just as the pace stepped up on one of the early stages, pulled back all his Kazakhs to do a TTT to catch up but never made it because the commissars kept pulling the cars out and stopping them getting any draft. A couple of days later he went on his big solo, got tested afterwards and when the results came through he was kicked off. Never a dull moment.
2005, stage 11, courcheval to briancon
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
5/6 years ago or not...
…the shoddy testing does not force you to make assertions that suggest factual knowledge that does not exist, and then use them as premises in arguments. If you have points to make that have merit, then you can make them without making up statistics that sound good but are based on your preconceptions or thin air, and nothing else.
This approach, no matter how personally satisfying it may be to you, doesn’t help anything where getting clear about the doping problem, its nature, its consequences, and the realistic hope for a solution to it are concerned.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
Sorry, you're wrong. The sport gave me the right to make these assumptions
1. Armstrong – overwhelming logic
2. Ulrich – Guilty
3. Vino – Guilty
4. Hamilton – Guilty
5. Zubeldia – Hey.. maybe clean?
6. Mayo – Guilty
7. Basso – Guilty
8. Moreau – Guilty
9. Sastre – Maybe Clean?
10. Mancebo – Retired mid allegation
sigh, 70-90% of the competitors, somewhere in there.
that better?
by whistlingmountain on Jul 21, 2009 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
No. It's not better.
Besides the six proven cases (out of how many in the peloton during their careers?), you haven’t provided one shred of evidence beyond the assertion that you ‘know’ what you’re talking about for any of your claims. Like I said, it may exist, but you haven’t provided it.
Given the degree to which discussions here are and have been informed by piles of evidence and careful, detailed reasoning, and haven’t come to any consensus, I’m incredibly unimpressed by your totally unsupported assertions.
As for your percentages: what number you give doesn’t change the fact that you have absolutely no way of knowing that any number is correct, or even close. We know it went on. We know that it was rumored to be widespread. We have lots of anectodal evidence that there was more going on than was proven, and that the tests may have been ineffective. However, none of the people involved were actually in a position to say what was happening with the peloton as a whole, or at what rate or intensity, since their experience was limited to their own trusted circle. So the testimony you may get from any of them is hardly reliable as a precise indicator of the overall rates, frequency and intensity of doping in the professional peloton. Widespread doping could only mean 20 or 30 percent, or it could be 70, or 90, but you know what, nobody knows. So no, you don’t have a basis for these assertions either.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
Half of Podium winners in Tour for last 15 years
Look at the Podium positions in the TdF for the last 15 years. Before relegation. Half were actually caught and sanctioned or self admitted doping. Several others retired before allegations were pursued. Given the fact that almost NONE of these were caught by test (only the newest one significantly), the evidence is that the majority of all successful riders doped in the last 15 years,
Indurain
Zulle – Doped
Riis – Doped
Ulrich – Doped
Virenque – Doped
Pantani – Doped
Julich
Armstrong
Escartin
Beloki – retired
Runsas – Doped
Vinokourov – doped
Kloden
Basso – Doped
Landis – Doped
Pereiro
Sastre
Contador
Evans
Leipheimer
Kohl – Doped
bzzzzztt 1. Armstrong – overwhelming logic
not my logic and I dislike the guy..
overwhelming suspicion maybe, wishful thinking maybe,. An overwhelming number of nieghsayers? Yep that’s for sure.
the “they did it so he had to in order to beat them” arguement doesn’t fly with me. A bunch of French journo’s and some questionable lab practice does not in my eyes a doper make. Remember.. I don’t like Armstrong. Goes back to the days of Subaru Montgomery and USA nat’s in the 80’s.
Before this gets really ugly a will refer everyone to
Dan’s treatise on this subject…
by Christopher See on Jul 22, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
oh ballocks.. that link navigated me away and now I don’t know which posts to read since they’re all “old” BAH
by Christopher See on Jul 22, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions
get into the habit of using the right-click button on the mouse (open into new tab or new window) instead of the left
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Then you just have to deal with
the “why did I open this” phenomenon when you finally get round to looking at all those open pages.
i don't have that prob... i always use open into a new tab)
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
funny you should mention LBL
And he wins that racew/out Jens! in what alternate universe?
As for fear—are you sure that wasn’t delight at the prospect of watching Klodi have to chase down his own team-mate?
Vinokourov is a cross between Chiapucci and Jackie Durand with a bit of Ludo Diercksens thrown in.
El Diablo!!
You’ve just named three of my all time favorite riders!!!!!
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
I really like Diercksens
for his tactical obtuseness, and I have a Durand autograph card.
Chiapucci, though . . . I think did a LOT of damage to the sport, because I think he was the test case for the EPO generation.
I can see that
I also want to give Ludo props for dealing w/ his doping in what seems like a forthright manner. (He won a stage of the tour, admitted to doping to help recover from an injury, and the passed the doping control and was banned anyway.)
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
Me too:
He basically fessed up to doping before the drug test—and then passed the test.
(Which I thought counted as my favorite stupid doper story until Frigo got popped for buying saline solution which he though was an experimental epo . . .)
I <3 the Frigo story
Hemassist is an experimental synthetic blood replacement that needed to be stored at -20c. It he had injected it, it could have killed him. Dario was perhaps the happiest man ever burned on a drug deal.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
I remember watching Jens do the majority of the work in that break, yes.
I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man.
kind of like the drunk uncle at a family BBQ
BAH!!!!....Cavendish?!
TLP 7.0 Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent
by bradBordeaux on Jul 21, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
not if he's yours...
BAH!!!!....Cavendish?!
TLP 7.0 Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent
by bradBordeaux on Jul 21, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Vino is my Darth Vader.
He’s evil in a way that Garmin can’t even dream of—he was the first guy I ever rooted against and watched in awe of his terrible unbending powers. Like Vader, in the end, I don’t want him to actually win, but I will watch everything he does and deep down hope to see more of him.
You have no faith in the sideburns!
How dare you?
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
mere Stormtroopers.
Uphill with STITCHES IN HIS KNEE. Vino scares me. I can’t even imagine what he would have done to George.
More Vino!
Mmm, but George's chin is like Vino Kryptonite, isn't it?
…or does he have more frightening powers than we knew of?
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
Not me.
Cycling needs villains and this is just too good to pass up.
"…I saw bloody Cavendish coming, really fast…"
HH
as villians
they’re pretty sorry. They’re “villains” the same way Andrew, Jonathan, and Warren were the bad guys in Buffy.
Never be ashamed of Buffy...
…it was genius.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
To paraphrase:
Fire bad. Buffy good.
Throughout the stage all I kept on thinking was: ‘don’t finish second, you can’t finish second again’.--Heinrich Haussler
+ infinity
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
my favorite line from the series: "bored now"
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Where's ursula with that great "Buffy meets Edward" video?
Throughout the stage all I kept on thinking was: ‘don’t finish second, you can’t finish second again’.--Heinrich Haussler
There we go.
Mal: Well look at this. Seems we got here just in the nick of time! What does that make us?
Zoë: Big damn heroes, sir.
Mal: Ain’t we just.
For some reason
I can’t really think of Columbia as an American team. Especially w/ Aldag and Zabel still in charge. This is still Telekom and they’ll always be a German team to me, especially w/ their international line-up.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
I often feel the same way.
Especially since they have what, one American on the team. I think their might be another besides George.
Craig Lewis
Throughout the stage all I kept on thinking was: ‘don’t finish second, you can’t finish second again’.--Heinrich Haussler
Yeah, but Georgie signed w/ Telekom er, T-Mobile
back before the switch. On the other hand, Bob Stapleton is bankrolling this particular operation, and I suppose it should be considered as American as his dollars.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
Cheering for Columbia feels like
cheering for the U.S. basketball team in the Olympics, only the U.S. team is made up of Germans.
U.S. owned, but not U.S. operated.
Columbia may have a Euro feel to it still
but they show up with good riders for the US races, including a variety of charity events in the US. Plus what’s the makeup of their women’s team?
Two from the US
One Canuck and one Australian (if you go with cheering for riders you understand). Ther rest are Furreinners
One Australian?
Hansen, Henderson, Renshaw and Rogers only count for a quarter each?
Throughout the stage all I kept on thinking was: ‘don’t finish second, you can’t finish second again’.--Heinrich Haussler
Oops, Henderson from NZ. Sorry!
Throughout the stage all I kept on thinking was: ‘don’t finish second, you can’t finish second again’.--Heinrich Haussler
If you can squeeze them all in a dress
the same dress
But it isn't the rider list
that doesn’t allow me to think of them as American, it’s memory. This team is Telekom. Look, there’s Rolph Aldag and Erik Zabel! I’m just stubborn that way. If Chase bought Rabobank, I’d still think of the team as Dutch. Hell, Caisse D’Eparne has a French name and sponsor, but in my pointy little head, they are still Banesto.
I’m not saying I’m right to think this way, I’m just saying that dispite all the yellow, I still see magenta when they race.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
I don't have a problem cheering for non U.S. teams
I just don’t think they seem like an American team. That is good that they bring good riders to U.S. racers however. Will we see Cav then at the Tour of Missouri again?
There women's team?
Oh… there’s… you know… a couple of riders on their from Europe…
Psst… Emilia… I don’t have plague anymore!
Respect the Shit List; it respects you.
US owned but not operated
seems to be the general drift of things these days.
by elmundo_enfuego on Jul 21, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
Surely they have some squishy “image of the sport” clause.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 21, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I think this year?
The 1st year that Astana was on a team was 2006 with the Astana-Wurth team. Then 07-09 it’s been just Astana. That’s four years.
Next year
Staring at the swim team gets you killed by a gang of dancing ninja men who know how to twirl.
by TheFigurehead on Jul 21, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Looking for confirmation
but I seem to remember that Johan Bruyneel owns the UCI license, not the Astana sponsor. So, if JB can find another sponsor, it may not matter what Astana wants.
Looking for confirmation…
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
That was reported, apparently incorrectly, by the Boulder Report guy (sorry, can't remember name)
Later, I think Bruyneel himself confirmed that the Kazakhs own the license.
Throughout the stage all I kept on thinking was: ‘don’t finish second, you can’t finish second again’.--Heinrich Haussler
About that
5 licenses expires this year: AG2R, Milram, Cofidis, Lampre and Bweeg. I assume that any of these are up for grabs, that UCI don’t award current teams by giving them special treatment when they apply for renewal. But I wouldn’t bet on it.
Anyway, I believe Cofidis had planned to withdraw from PT this year, but changed their mind. I would like to know if they have applied for a new license. Maybe they can tell us now, since the deadline for application was yesterday (and that might be the reason why Bruyneel et al decided to tell us about the new team today).
So we might have a case of 6-8 (the previous 5, Bruyneel, Sky, the new Spanish) teams interested 5 PT licenses.
Staring at the swim team gets you killed by a gang of dancing ninja men who know how to twirl.
by TheFigurehead on Jul 21, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
But
(and excuse more half remembered factoids) didn’t one of the GTs this year make space for more wildcards by claiming that the deal they signed with the UCI only relates to the teams which held PT licences at that point in time, and that when they invited Garmin it was technically a wildcard invitation.
Yes. This year's Vuelta.
It was widely reported that they’d left out Katusha due to Colom, Pfannberger etc. but the organisers claimed that the agreement they’d signed only held for the pro tour teams at the time of the agreement & therefore Garmin & Katusha, as new pro tour teams, had no right to an automatic invite. But of the two ,only Garmin were among the so-called wildcards, the others being Vacansoleil, Cervélo, Andalucia, Contentpolis and Xacobeo Galicia.
Licences.
Brailsford was interviewed on Radio Five Live tonight (they really don’t know anyone else to talk to about cycling, though at lunchtime tney were adventurous enough to talk to Shane Sutton) & at one point he was talking about the aim of having a British winner of the Tour in five years, blah blah blah & he said something like “well, that’s the point of having a British team next year in the Tour, and er, other major races”. Now, that might sound like nothing & it’s the exact opposite of an acknowledgment that they might well not be in the Tour, but in the context of his PR, it sounded a bit like paving the way…
Unlike Shane Sutton, who was all unalloyed joy & enthusiasm, he seemed mildy put out that Wiggins was daring to do this this season & not on their team. But then, he often sounds like that.
Sky can make it without a license
Like Cervelo (who I obviously forgot in my comment above) this year. But on the other hand, at this point I don’t see Sky getting riders like Sastre and Hushovd to help them get wildcards in the major races. There’s a possibility of a catch 22 here.
Staring at the swim team gets you killed by a gang of dancing ninja men who know how to twirl.
by TheFigurehead on Jul 21, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't understand all the Vino ire.
Yeah, he got busted, but it isn’t like that hasn’t happened to nearly every other top rider in the sport. He’s done his time and can now return like every other rider who has been banned at one time or another.
Vino was so awesome on the roads, not for his results, but for the way he rode his bike. When in doubt, he attacked. You’d never catch Vino on the phone w/ Dr. Ferrari to do the math on whether or not it was worth chasing a breakaway, Vino jumped on the pedals and went.
We’ve seen so many conservative and careful riders in 3 week races, it is time for someone with a little elan to liven things up. Who besides Alberto and Danilo (neither strangers to doping allegations) has ridden aggressively in a GT since Vino was busted.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
by Koppenberg on Jul 21, 2009 3:16 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Will you help to round up others to toil...
… in his potato mines?
Respect the Shit List; it respects you.
Sheesh...
… I don’t know how you do it in Sweden, but here we dig UNDER the soil and pluck the tubers from underneath the ground so as to avoid releasing the CO2 emissions of the harvesting equipment… specifically, the exhalation of the Mexicans that had to dig the tunnel and pick the potato.
Respect the Shit List; it respects you.
Sure, time served and all that...
he’s never admitted any wrong doing, he has no humility, and then he comes back with threats to boot….long walk, short pier
BAH!!!!....Cavendish?!
TLP 7.0 Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent
by bradBordeaux on Jul 21, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Pretty brash
unrepentant… won a stage of the Tour on the sauce… talked a little too loudly for a guy who was cheating… I have no love for him. full disclosure, I never really liked him.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 21, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
+1 ... sadly...
I think the “drunk Uncle at the BBQ” comment is most apt. Great stories, but you wouldn’t ever invite him around yourself.
Respect the Shit List; it respects you.
Is Contador really that aggressive?
He is very calculating and conservative in my opinion. In general his strategy is genreally the same as all the other Grand Tour riders, he is just better at breaking away than the others.
Aye
but there are plenty of top riders who don’t even do that. Contador and Sastre, at least, will attack to their races (and the Bernard Hinault stamp of approval.) Other top riders (I’m looking at you Cadel and Levi) just hope that everyone will drop without taking any risks themselves.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
Oh no!
Does that mean we have to add Frankie Big-House (Francesco Cassagrande) into the mix now too?
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
Vino
I think many people admired Vino’s attacking style, the obvious problem is his lack of repentance. David Millar was welcomed back warmly, but he admitted his wrong doing (after being caught red handed). Millar also went straight to a team with a strong anti-doping stance.
Maybe Vino can join Bike Pure?
I have more respect for the way Marco Pantani dealt w/ getting busted
than any of the folks who confessed to exactly what could be proven and no more. Marco said “I can look all of my competitors in the face.” That is a justification I can trust. I LOVE Erik Zabel and have a tremendous amount of respect for him, but his confession was similar to Millar’s. Zabel confessed to cheating only in a period that the statute of limitations had run out on. Millar admitted to cheating only when confronted w/ his souvenir vial of EPO.
So yeah, Vino doped. Yeah, Vino got caught. I’m glad he got caught and I wish he hadn’t doped, but I have more respect for his non-apology than I do for the boot-licking apologies of some or the insanely ridiculous denials of others. He did the crime and did the time, now lets move on.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
Uhh....
I’d rather someone make a half assed, lame, somewhat insincere apology, than no apology at all. Yeah, I hear you with Millar…he only confessed because of the smoking gun, and all Pantani did was conjure up that same ‘level playing field’ excuse like VDB. But this tosser insists he did nothing wrong, that really insults me and debases the sport I love. And then wants to come back as though nothing ever happend….
BAH!!!!....Cavendish?!
TLP 7.0 Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent
by bradBordeaux on Jul 21, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to pick a fight,
but Vino not aplogizing for doing what it takes to win doesn’t debase the sport. It is all the tossers who make it so a rider has to “do what it takes to win” who debase the sport.
We all know that many, many, many, top riders have resorted to pharmacy. I just don’t see how crocodile tears and kissing the sponsors’ arse makes the situation better. It can easily be seen that the riders who apologize and debase themselves are only feeding the fiction that cycling is a clean sport. They are enabling the practice of the riders pretending to be clean and the fans pretending to believe them. I don’t like the fact that Vino doped, but I have more respect for honestly and I do for toadying and wrist-licking.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
No worries mate, debate, not fight...
Let me re-phrase and perhaps we will agree……I don’t want an ass kissing apology either, I don’t want trite ‘it was a different era’ rubbish creating the illusion of a clean sport. I want an acknowledgment of wrong doing and getting caught. That’s what pisses me off with Vino. And I fully understand your position…but would you be satisfied with a face-to-face with Vino where he tells ‘I didnt’ cheat, not in 2007, never’?
BAH!!!!....Cavendish?!
TLP 7.0 Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent
by bradBordeaux on Jul 21, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
No more satisfied than I would be w/ Virenque, Landis, or Hamilton
or other riders who have denied clear evidence. However, after going through that with those folks and still going through it with others, I simply don’t have the energy to blame them any more. Or to be more accurate, I’m less angry at them for following the path that history has shown leads to the least penalty. It used to bug the hell out me, but now I’ve seen that even low-life snakes like Howard Jacobs are just doing their job. It is his job to pursue the course that is in his client’s best interest, and that is the Ari Gold (Entourage) approach: “Deny until you die.” On a personal integrity level, it makes me ill, but I guess I’m too old for tilting at windmills.
I can see why it would preturb folks. Hell, read my postings on Hamilton and Landis and you’ll see me completely contradict myself. But now, I just don’t have the strength of will to believe that apologies and tears are signs of any more moral fortitude than omerta. I respect Zabel because Zabel has shown himself worth of respect. I don’t respect Floyd Landis because he hasn’t shown himself to be a man of character. But when it comes to how they handled doping, the only difference between the two is that Zabel volunteered his half-assed apology to save a friend and Landis did all his dirty tricks to save his own arse.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
I'll continue to tilt at windmills
especially when I ‘know’ them to be giant knights!
BAH!!!!....Cavendish?!
TLP 7.0 Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent
by bradBordeaux on Jul 21, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
don't really think vino
was so much honest as blatantly dishonest to the point that it is obvious and clear. There’s a certain satisfaction in the clarity. I’m lying – i know it, you know it, everyone knows it. Tough shit.
This triumphant return is what gets me
What happened when Virenque, Landis and Hamilton rejoined the peloton? in the case of Landis and Hamilton, they entered a rung lower in competition and Virenque wasn’t welcomed back to Festina. Festina wasn’t much of a team ever again and Phonak folded.
In the case of Vino and Astana, lots of people put in lots of effort to remake the image of this team and to make it welcome at every race in the world and it related directly to Vino’s actions. For him to come back and proclaim it his right to be on his team is just amazingly arrogant. It’s like he has no conception of the harm his actions caused. He’s said that he wants to race the Tour next year, as though they’re waiting with open arms for him.
I’d have a lot more respect for Vino if he hadn’t re-entered the sport on such a high horse. I get that he’s potentially a national hero and all but… I just feel like someone along the line should have known better and told him to STFU.
sure except
that is just ignoring the fact that “Astana” is the capital of Kazakhstan
sometimes life is a false flat
yeah but...
if Lance had been busted for EPO do you really think he would’ve been welcomed back at USPS?
I won’t ask about his expectations…who knows what’s going through his head.
Yes I don't totally disagree
but wasn’t the ONLY reason Astana was born was because Vino’s team went bankrupt and he needed a sponsor quick … and the Kazakhs stepped in for national reasons.
sometimes life is a false flat
Yes
But isn’t the ONLY reason that Astana is at this tour is that the team, from management on down, was revamped?
Okay, not the only reason. But a prominent one to be sure.
Yeah, tough spot all around
Tough to deduce a positive moral from this story either. I suppose the sight of Lance in yellow and black, Contador in red and black and Vino in a TV booth at next year’s Tour will be the vindication.
I wouldn''t think so
maybe I’m biased, but replacing Manolo Saiz’s infrastructure with Johan Bruyneel’s infrastructure really isn’t the way to make time w/ the ASO. They are playing nicey-nicey now but the ASO has never been fans of Johan. The UCI, OTOH, ruled that ‘Nolo could keep his UCI license after puerto. Johan also has pull w/ the UCI, but this year Le Tour was part of the historical calendar, so pull w/ the UCI doesn’t count for as much when trying to get an invite.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
I can't recall much about the Saiz-UCI business...
but don’t the UCI have to follow rules and regs a little more strictly than ASO? I mean, ASO has in the past had the leeway to say, “You can’t race because you’re kind of sketchy,” in essence.
I see the ASO-JB side to it but JB also implies riders and a certain level of performance, not to mention a clean record, all speculation aside.
Thinking in terms of hypotheticals, if Manolo Saiz were back in 2007 with Vino what would ASO have said? If Marc Biver were back with Vino in 2008 (after a hypothetically reduced sentence)?
I guess I may have a flawed sense of how a team responds to doping. I feel like they either
a) Cast the doper as alone wolf. In this case, you treat the doper like a cancer. The bad part’s been cut out and the rest of the team is still good. Think Rabobank after Rasmussen or Phonak after Hamilton.
b) Ownership throws up their hands and says the well’s tainted and revamp/fold the team. Think Phonak after Landis, Astana after Vino, Fuji after Ricco
To continue the metaphor, Astana’s claiming the well was tainted, digging a new one and then adding a bucketful of the old well for old time’s sake.
Maybe
but if JB had made his team a bit more Kazakh development and a bit less fighting-cancer-all-through-the-world then he might be better regarded by his sponsors
Is it true?
that Vino holds a cancer benefit every year where they actually give money to cancer?
this I understand
you don’t piss off the people signing your paycheck but, if I’m not mistaken, Astana still does employ the most Kazakh riders in the peloton. Is it really JB’s fault that the two viable GT Kazakh riders in the world got busted for doping two weeks apart?
This is a *very* good point.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
Is your claim, then
that professional cycling is impossible to do “clean”?
And since when has Vino been honest? He has denied that he doped—and claimed that he was going to fight his suspension—even made noises about hiring the Landis/Hamilton hack team—and then shut up about it.
So, I don’t know where you’re getting your ideas about his honesty.
No.
It is my claim that it is unreasonable to call all the riders who were unlucky enough to get caught “bad guys” and all the riders who were lucky enough to escape sanction “good guys”.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
whollly agree with you there
I’m really ambivalent at times about the whole doping business.
And that’s why I think I dislike guys like Chiapucci and Pantani because they taught us to admire a style of racing that’s not really sustainable without a “program.”
Agree with you about Landis, by the way . . .
OK
I can understand this. I have long blamed the sport at large for causing, hiding, and coddling the widespread doping problem.
With Vino, it’s a little worse because he got busted at a time when the sport was trying to change course, then pretty much rubbed our noses in it. But if he was raised to dope… well, that’s how the sport was, particularly in the East.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 21, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
good points
and maybe that explains why no one seems happy at Katusha . . .
But . . . Jens! was raised in East Germany, as was Zabel, as were half of the Telekom bunch: if they were “raised to dope” they seem to have gotten the memo about things changing.
So, let’s not lump ALL the East together . ..
sigh
this is where my pessimism really hurts. I LOVE Zabel and Jens! both, but I don’t see why it doesn’t make sense not to lump them in together with the others.
Perhaps I’m too attached to Prentice Steffan’s famous quote about good guys and bad guys.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
he got busted at a time when the sport was trying to change course, then pretty much rubbed our noses in it
True but there is for many (certainly not everyone – and this comment is not directed at anyone here) a nationality issue when debating doping.
Take Milar, he got caught then rubbed everyone’s noses into listening to him try and transform himself into an anti-doping spokesman. But he’s english ……
Or take Spanish forums currently deriding Wiggins, etc
Or take the French loving Virenque
My conclusion:
I bet Kazakh forums see Vino as a great hero.
sometimes life is a false flat
Millar: il a une tête a claque, ce mec!
BAH!!!!....Cavendish?!
TLP 7.0 Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent
by bradBordeaux on Jul 21, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
moi aussi
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 21, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL--I was just about to call you on that.
Throughout the stage all I kept on thinking was: ‘don’t finish second, you can’t finish second again’.--Heinrich Haussler
The one I don't get
who seems to have avoided all suspicion: Jalabert.
Is there something I’m missing and he never aroused suspicion?
I think it's safe to assume
that he was a very active member of “the tainted generation”
The only hard accusation I can recall though was from some rider who said he had “pot belge” at a party at Jalaberts house I think. He is also mentioned in the danish documentary that pointed accusations at some ONCE doctors in the mid 90:ties.
Oh no, there was a minor scandal after he retired
some espoirs and young pros who claimed to have been introduced to doping through JaJa, indeed they claimed they received recreational drugs at a party at his house. I don’t remember more details then that, but it blew over and I think most folks decided it was impolite to cast aspersions on a legend after he was retired.
The only other implication I can remember is that when Alex Zulle was caught up in the Festina scandal, he ratted out the systematic doping program at his former team ONCE, which included JaJa.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
but can't we assume that practically everyone,
particularly anyone who had any success, in the 90’s was doped?
A lot of people yes...
…everyone might be stretching it.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
Spanish Forums?
Cyclismag had an interesting quote taken originally from L’Equipe via a French blog:
Greg LeMond est plus que sceptique devant les améliorations de la cylindrée de quelques coureurs du peloton : “(Ils) donnent comme explication à ce bond de performance la perte de poids et un meilleur entraînement. C’est de la poudre aux yeux ! La recette miracle s’appelle EPO et transfusion sanguines.”
They give as explanation for that jump in performance the loss of pounds and better training. It’s a smokescreen! The miracle programme is called EPO and blood transfusions.
Did he really say that in L’Equipe? Off to find out, I guess.
Found it
here, but it sounds a lot less controversial in context. In fact any controversy probably comes in my head after reading the velo-club forums first.
It goes beyond the French too
RAI had a long discussion about it today and Cassani genuinely seemed to believe in Wiggins, but a couple of others (whose names I missed) weren’t quite so sure. “It’s not like Kohl” they all agreed, but still they were concerned at this sudden rise to form at the age of 29.
Except that Garmin are really up front about what...
…they’re doing physiologically, even to the point of making a big public deal about their various innovative or novel techniques.
Sure this could be a smokescreen, but if what they’re doing seems at least plausibly like it could be having the effects we’re seeing, especially on riders who are now performing in roles they never trained for before, it seems like occam’s razor, if nothing else, would tend to suggest you believe them.
Just saying.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
Sure
And it could be true. I wasn’t trying to start an argument. Just remarking that people have raised questions, because it is unusual for a rider to place high for the first time in a grand tour in their late 20s. There are lots of reasons that could happen.
I also think it's worth noting what's being said elsewhere
whatever our own views happen to be. Capodacqua, for instance, rather along Lemond lines, is not at all convinced by the explanations given (“Si attendono lumi dalla fisiologia.”) but nor is he blatantly calling Wiggins out in the way he did, say, Schumacher last year.
definitely agree
I haven’t read Capo lately. I’ll have to head over there.
It’s good to have perspective, whatever you may think yourself.
Fair enough.
I wasn’t trying to start an argument either. Really I was commenting on what’s a little different about Garmin, namely the openness about what they’re doing.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
The trouble is
that the French remember years of Virenque’s oh so plausible denials, leading up to the collapse in tears and big tear-stained apology when he finally went to court. You can understand why they are suspicious.
Oh I can totally understand suspicion...
…but it also worries me a tad when it becomes self-sustaining.
Proving a negative is essentially impossible, so somewhere along the way we need to be able to say, ok I really don’t have any strong reason to think something’s happening, beyond the ever present possibility that I need to learn to live with. I’m not saying Wiggins is necessarily that case, but I do worry about the attitude of those who are just basically unwilling to accept any argument that a team, rider, or the entire peloton is clean or cleaner than previously.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
Garmin-as-proof
I hope Garmin will do something like they did last year, where they released their data & allowed Ashenden to analyse it. I think that was a really good exercise. I’d also be fascinated to see some of Wiggins’ British Cyling data, especially now this road project seems to have been an idea of Shane Sutton’s as much as of Vaughters. British Cycling are numbers-based through & through, which suggests that Sutton had some plausible data. (Interesting too that Wiggins’ s interviews at the minute sound like 10% Wiggins & 90% Steve Peters).
But I think the issue here is as much about perception as evidence. For instance, the Garmin Team Clean thing got a lot of backs up (especially in the European press) because the implication is then kind of that no one else is… & a lot of people didn’t like that. Also that doping is quite often casually referred to as, say, a Spanish/Italian problem, when we know full well that’s not the case, so there’s that resentment too. There was also huge scepticism about BC’s track achievements in Beijing (cherry juice, for god’s sake…), though as Capodacqua pointed out, no one else much was taking track terribly seriously.
On Wiggins, I do recommend reading “his” book, notwithstanding its being one of the worst written books I’ve ever had the misfortune to read, even by not very high ghosted autobiog standards. You do though get a sense of his attitudes to track & road, as well as the haphazard & at times totally chaotic way he’s approached his career until now.
Your second paragraph...
…is really insightful and makes a ton of points that are worth remembering.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
Velo-club, ha!
A little cynicism never hurt anyone, right? ;-)
As for Cassani, he believes everyone. Not saying he’s wrong to believe Wiggins, but he is always quick to believe the best of everyone.
Ah, that devoted Mr Rasmussen
did I tell you about the time when it was pouring with rain, we were sheltering in the car, when suddenly a little stick figure came past wearing a sombrero blah blah.
It works well with RAI because they have others who will take the more cynical line. As opposed to the “is your tongue getting tired? let me take a turn.” stuff you get elsewhere.
But velo-club had a lot of similar discussion re CVV last year, and some more on Chris Horner a few months ago. It seems to be the only time they discuss English speaking riders, always the “white men can’t jump” line. I don’t trust our tennis players, but I’m still giving the cyclists the benefit of the doubt.
Poor Davide's never really got over that, has he?
Agree totally on the “white men can’t jump” thing (& also on the tennis… but then tennis seems to have very weak notions generally of what might actually count as doping; still haven’t recovered from the head of anti-doping at the ITF recently denying that any tennis player could get any benefit from EPO, but…).
Vino gave up some of his best years and gave away one World Championship for Ullrich and I do not remember him complain. I always though of him as a person of great character. Astana is Vino’s team. (where did the money come from.)
I do not understand this drugs thing. Why were Basso and Ullrich banned while all of the Spanish riders went free. Contador was on this list, and since the Spanish refuse to investigate we will never know if there was any evidence against him. Maybe not, but it was never intestigated (see Valderde)
Not all the Spanish riders got away
it just takes a little bit longer to nail them down.
Contador
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601079&sid=asN3ALDkjxVQ
Armstrong "was very good," Contador told reporters. "He made a big effort to get back to the group. In the end, I didn’t need him."
Not very nice.
In the end, I didn’t need him. . . . . ?
(what a butthead.) he really just goes out of his way to make me not like him!
Bah... Garmin.
The truth, tis true....
the tour ain’t won yet, so why burn the bridge….
sure
payback for all those nasty Tweets
BAH!!!!....Cavendish?!
TLP 7.0 Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent
by bradBordeaux on Jul 21, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Bert gets gifted a bit too much leeway on the "lost in translation" bit.
Throughout the stage all I kept on thinking was: ‘don’t finish second, you can’t finish second again’.--Heinrich Haussler
Fine
So maybe nothing was lost in translation. The truth remains: Bert didn’t need Lance. And I am not going far out on a limb that when crunch time comes in this Tour for Bert, Lance won’t be there cause he’ll be trying to bridge up again.
I think there have been
lots of little examples on and off the bike that you are exactly right
sometimes life is a false flat
Referring to teammates only in terms of what they can do for him?
What an asshole. He sounds almost like ………..Lance.
This is more a post-stage comment
BUT . . . there was only one team-driven tactical reason for Armstrong to bridge.
Klodi was there and Contador was in no trouble.
So . . . that was all about Armstrong protecting his gc position: so where’s the Armstrong hates Garmin polemic?
1. Yes, he was protecting his podium position.
2. Not a big brouhaha about Armstrong and Garmin because of the lack of a symnpathetic character like Hincapie.
3. Garmin deserves it anyway.
It'll be just you, me, and Peter Nincompoop.
garmin = evil
didnt u get the tweet?
by elmundo_enfuego on Jul 21, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
come let us dance like children of the night
by elmundo_enfuego on Jul 21, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Look at the size of the head on that boy...
… it’s like an orange on a toothpick.
Respect the Shit List; it respects you.
That was a bit offsides...
… he’ll have to cry himself to sleep tonight on a great big pilleh…
HEAD, MOVE, NOW!
Respect the Shit List; it respects you.
I feel EVIL coursing through my body...
… compelling every corner of my being with the desire to do wrong.
Respect the Shit List; it respects you.
But Garmin would not want Lance to attack.
If he had stayed back and not attacked, he would have potentially moved Wiggo into 2nd on the GC. In reality, the move by LA worked almost perfectly for Astana. He was able to hold onto his GC spot, and he was able to shed some of the riders that stayed back with him after the first attack by A. Schleck.
hmmm
Wasn’t the only significant rider shed all told Cadel after Zabriskie wound it up on the descent?
You might be right
I remember they said Sastre got back on. All in all though that is the best jump we have seen since LA since his return. Take what you want from it, but it was pretty nice to see.
Ummm, in the interest of our standard PdC kumbaya stance on perspectives -
Perhaps something was lost in the translation. “I didn’t need him” = “I wasn’t in any difficulty and was able to respond to surges on my own”. Just sayin – I didn’t hear the the interview, just read it.
That's how I interpreted it ...
… “Lance did well to bridge the gap, in case he was needed, even though as it turned out he wasn’t needed this time.”
If it was “No lo necesité”, that could easily be read as Contador was not in difficulty, which is to say, not “in need”.
now now
This sounds like one of those subtleties that gets lost in translation. I can’t imagine he doesn’t care about his teammates at all, or at least that he’d be stupid enough to tell the media.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 21, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
New to the forum
Really enjoy reading it. Regarding what Contador said – El Pais quoted him this way -
""Ha sido un gran campeón y lo sigue siendo y hoy lo ha vuelto a demostrar. Por primera vez hemos hablado en carrera. No le he necesitado, pero estoy seguro de que si hubiera estado en problemas me habría ayudado", afirmó. “Cuando ha dicho que se pone a mi servicio demuestra todavía más grandeza”, agregó."
Rough Tranaslation — “He has been a great champion, continues to be one and has demonstrated it again. For the first time, we spoke during a race. I have not needed him, but I am sure that if I were in trouble he would have helped me. When he said that he would work for me he demonstrates even more greatness.”
Does that quote trouble you?
Thanks
This forum is a great read. I really enjoy everyone’s thoughts.
Mmmm... thoughts.... tasty....
braaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnsssssssssssss
Respect the Shit List; it respects you.
Zombies
definitely the new black.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 21, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Link
I do not kknow how to do them here – straight html does not work for me.
So here goes – http://www.elpais.com/articulo/deportes/Astarloza/recibe/recompensa/elpepudep/20090721elpepudep_4/Tes
It's all pretty automatic here
highlight a word, click the little chain picture (beside the tree) then paste the link in the box that appears.
not at all
and welcome.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 21, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Bob Stapleton
is insisting that Garmin is responsible for the poor translation and is just trying to screw Astana’s chances of holding on to the lead.
That's not what I heard...
apparently Garmin is adding magma to the earths core such that Magnetic North will be 15 and not 14 degrees off True North…thus fuzzing all other GPS units other than their own….
BAH!!!!....Cavendish?!
TLP 7.0 Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent
by bradBordeaux on Jul 21, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks so much for that.
People translating stuff is always one of many good things round here.
as.com has the same thing with a tiny bit more.
That's even less troubling than ...
… “No lo necesité” … “I haven’t needed him, but I am sure that if I were in trouble he would have helped me”, and “I didn’t need him” are two strikingly different ways to put it in English.
it's the omission of
but I am sure that if I were in trouble he would have helped me", that makes a difference. Plus the stuff that came before.
you gotta keep in mind the context
he’s got a ds who signed him when he knew lance was coming on board but they didn’t tell him about it until after he’d signed on the dotted line.
He’s got a ds who says it’s boring to win tours with him, nothing like the good old days winning tours with lance.
Then he’s got lance with the tweets and taking over the team.
He’s done well to keep his remarks as contained as they’ve been.
you want to check your time frame on that... alberto signed on before armstrong came back
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
mmm, I had the impression that decision was made later.
It was certainly announced much later.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
that's the point that
it was announced later. Had it been announced earlier, do you think contador would have signed with astana? Of course not.
You *assume* it was made before Contador signed.
I’ve seen zero evidence of that.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
Guys, this sort of thing is easy to look up.
Bruyneel in October, 2008:
I have read the reports that teams are interested in Alberto. Of course teams are looking to create conflicts between the two in hope that Alberto will leave, but Alberto signed a contract with Team Astana through 2010. Most riders sign two-year deals, but Alberto insisted on a three-year deal based on the strong team we established to help him win the biggest races. I
If Bert signed for 3 years and the contract goes through the end of 2010, then the 3 years covered are ‘08, ’09, and ’10. So he signed it back in 2007, well before Lance’s comeback was even rumored.
Throughout the stage all I kept on thinking was: ‘don’t finish second, you can’t finish second again’.--Heinrich Haussler
no, i admit
that i assume that bruyneel and LA knew LA was coming back. I have no proof whatsoever. Looks like he signed a two year contract towards end of 2007 (october). Looks like LA signed a year later. Total supposition on my part that they knew. Should have stated that in the original post. On the other hand, i think the main point of the post remains. Contador signs with a team as a 3 time grand tour winner and after signing him bruyneel brings back his old bud armstrong. Put yourself in contador’s place. Would you be happy with that? Especially with armstrong’s obvious desire to win, not to be a support guy. And bruyneel’s stated preference for winning tours with armstrong. Armstrong could have signed elsewhere. That was his choice to try and win an 8th tour with a team that already had the best GT rider already on it. Oh well, soon to be history. Hopefully he wins this year despite all and next year they can fight it out from different teams.
contador had only won 1 grand tour before he signed with bruyneel to ride with astana
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
That's what I thought...
…why I was puzzled by what yeehoo was saying.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
Just gonna throw this out there: Is it possible Lance is talking about his U-23 team he owns and not the team he rides for?
It'll be just you, me, and Peter Nincompoop.
nah
From the context, I don’t think he’d get us all hyped up about that right now. Also the timing with Bruyneel’’s comments…
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 21, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I Hope the New Sponsor's product
Is somehow related to cycling à la Columbia / Garmin
US Postal was a great team but not many Europeans bought more American stamps due to the sponsorship.
sometimes life is a false flat
USPS is a self-sustaining organization
they don’t receive tax money for operations and thus pay for their operations w/ stamp and shipping charges. The USPS sponsorship was an effort to increase business in Europe and Int’l shipping. Viewed as an investment, the money spent on sponsorship returned much more value in increased revenues.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
Makes more sense now.
I still think that USPS isn’t a 100% self sufficient. Didn’t they get a decent bit of money recently in the bailout phenomenon.
usps asked for some money (like a whole bunch of other companies did). don't think it got any
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Hrm.
The price of the first class stamp rose only 12% during the US Postal team’s existence ($.33 to $.37). Since then, the stamp has risen almost 19% ($.37 to $.44). Maybe we should hope that they are reconsidering the sponsorship so we don’t end up paying $.50 for a letter next year…
what, people actually still send letters via snail mail?
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Sure, its not all Netflix and credit card offers ...
… private letters are still grudgingly permitted.
not self sustaining...
extremely inefficient, runs deficits, especially this year so far.
Let me correct - extemely -e-fficient
First class mail is amazingly cheap in the US. The reduction of junk mail has hurt them this year. That was a big profit center.
snark on
Of course now they have gotten all private business like – so look for their efficiency to go to the dogs like every other public service that gets privatized.
Team Lance
Bruyneel, Armstrong, Leipheimer, Horner, Chechu… would Kloden stay? Zubeldia? Seems like they would want to get some young guys on board to build for the future… I suppose they’d keep the emphasis on stage racing, but it would be cool to see some classics talent too.
klodi to go with the spanish boys. don't know how long zubeldia's contract was for.
as regards chechu… hmmmm…. that’s a pop-up
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Kloden still probably want's to be a GC guy
I think he has the abilities and never really had the opportunity at T-Mobile nor at Astana. Could he go to Katusha and be their GC guy?
'cos what Katusha need right now
is another GT leader to be busted just weeks before the start of the race.
Agree
It is probably just a matter of time before the dust settles on that one. Nevermind the Katusha reference then :)I don’t seem him fitting in anywhere else. The germans just dont find themselves on Italian or Spanish teams and it would seem weird on a non descript french team. Silence? doubtful. Saxo? Highly unlikely. Milram? Eh no. i say he stays on Astana actually with Vino.
klodi likes being a support rider
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
for the GTs. he does quite well at smaller stage races
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
he should have business cards
That expressly state he enjoys working for 2 headed teams and chasing down the seemingly rogue teammate. /snark
I know he has a shady past but I really like his riding style.
by australopithecine on Jul 21, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
From CW
Just who will ride for Armstrong’s new team is unclear. Levi Leipheimer and Chris Horner are certainties and there are also rumours that George Hincapie may quit Columbia for one last season with Armstrong.
Actual rumors or just guesswork? I thought George was happy at Columbia?
Throughout the stage all I kept on thinking was: ‘don’t finish second, you can’t finish second again’.--Heinrich Haussler
mmm, taking a page out of the Sky playbook here?
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
This "rumor"
sounds like complete crap. He didn’t sound like a guy yearning for a reunion the other day.
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 21, 2009 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Like I said, the Sky playbook...
…were many of their rumors even remotely plausible?
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
And here I thought you were just being funny.
Throughout the stage all I kept on thinking was: ‘don’t finish second, you can’t finish second again’.--Heinrich Haussler
CW, not CVV
In other words, Cycling Weekly, not Christian Vandevelde
I read somewhere else
that Hincapie isn’t staying with Columbia next year. Probably in one of those numerous “Who’s going to Sky” things that talk about EBH too.
If he did think about it
I wonder if his plans changed on Sunday? Personally, George seems happy with his elder statesman sort of role at Columbia
OK I've found it
from Tuttobici, which also lets slip about the bloodshed expected chez Cofidis this winter. I thought he looked happy too, and I can’t see why he’d give tip-offs to the Italians ahead of anyone else, but who knows. It does say that he has no intention of retiring, which fits with the back-to-Lancie narrative
Sigh
There’s just something upsetting about all these gifted riders he needs to have working for him instead of themselves. It seems greed and a little unfair.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
perfect for helping transition the U-23 guys to pro tour though
I somehow think the new team will be associated with the U-23 live strong team. This will allow LA’s new team to groom riders similar to the way Columbia and Garmin have done it. Bring guys up through the system with some serious experience to mold them.
Hincapie's days are numbered
I think that if Hincapie wants to win P-R finally, he best do it on a team other than Columbia. Hate to say it but I have to think they will throw support behind Boss Hog next year for the classics. He is tailor made for them.
I agree
But still think he wants to. Think Hincapie would be a great mentor for T. Phinney as well given very similar riding styles and body types.
A mentor?
to Taylor Phinney?
For what? Well . . . see . . . here’s how I lost the Ronde by not attacking when everyone else was cooked. Don’t do that.
Here’s how I lost Paris-Roubaix by towing a guy way faster than me to the line. Don’t do that.
????
come on man, that strikes me as a bit unfair. It’s not just the guys who win everything in sight who are the best mentors. I’d say that more often they’re the worst, expect everyone else to be up to their level.
by plinytheelder on Jul 21, 2009 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll buy that.
Bruyneel was a very solid rider, but he didn’t win as much as his teammates. Aldag is doing a damn fine job at Columbia and he spent his career working for Ullrich and Zabel.
Sometimes the uber-talented guys don’t end up learning as much about training as the uber-competitive guys who are trying to keep up with them. “ride lots” may have worked as a training philosophy for the greatest rider in history, but those of us born w/o Merckx’s talent need some more details.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
I would rather have George as a mentor than Tom Boonen
Boonen as a mentor – Although I am very talented and won P-R and Ronde, here is what you do in your freetime when you find yourself at parties, and here is how you sit up on sprints because you are a crybaby who doesn’t like to compete when he is beat.
I am sorry but a mentor is something more than just someone who has a great winning record. It is someone who knows how to handle himself in the peloton, who has a history of being competitive and who can really teach you the ropes. I think George is definitely that guy.
Is Taylor Phinney
eligible to ride for this new “Team Lance”?
Good; thanks - I wasn't sure if one can freely move
from U-23 to ProTour.
Was that communication?
I thought it was the internet equivalent of Tourettes.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
Team Weiner!
I really want the sponsor to be Oscar Meyer. After the recent wreck of a Weinermobile, they need some good publicity.
1. If Nike & Trek sponsor a "Team Livestrong" super team . . .
with Johan Bruyneel, Lance, and a super roster of helpers, then I think that somehow, the sport will find a way to get this new team a Pro-Tour license.
2. The same with the proposed British Sky Team — if the $ is big and the roster good . . . .
3. Astana looks to be regressing to a small-budget, Vino team — which might put their license in danger.
4. Garmin and Columbia might get raided by Livestrong & the new British team.
5. If Alberto has any brains, he’ll transfer to the strongest Spanish team he can for a safe haven.
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