How do you solve a problem like Alberto?
by Softie on Jul 23, 2009 6:04 PM EDT
116 comments
As discussed here, it looks like our skinny Spanish overlord will be dominating the Tour for years. The Accountant can time trial like Anquetil and climb like Gaul---he really appears to be the second coming of Fausto Coppi.
All of this is great if you're Spanish or thinking of hiring El Pistolero next year. But if you're the ASO, how do you design a course to create dramatic tension and prevent Alberto from being ahead by four minutes prior to the capstone moment of Le Grand Boucle?
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I think Jens! said it best:
You need to include bear attacks.
by bruyere on Jul 23, 2009 6:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jens! said...
…that there should be one race, it starts in March and ends in October. It runs every day, and they eliminate one rider per day.
I think that this would be skewed in Jens!’s favor, however.
by gregm on Jul 23, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe the last line is a feature, not a bug.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
by Ed K on Jul 23, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
like is an understatement
and now I have “observe hint #13” taped to my bars
by Wireless on Jul 25, 2009 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there's a Stephen King story like this.
Jens would love it, i thought it was a horror story!
by Seahorse on Jul 24, 2009 4:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not normally much of a King fan
but this one is seriously compelling. Sorry I missed the link.
by Seahorse on Jul 24, 2009 5:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
[cleaning keyboard again]
though I wonder why I bother.
ABRUZZIAM...uh oh
by Chris... on Jul 23, 2009 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just get a roll-up one for easy cleaning
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Jul 24, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Add two cyclocross stages!
Mon coeur appartient aux les forçats de la route.
by Josenka on Jul 23, 2009 6:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Man can bike but how does he run?
Mon coeur appartient aux les forçats de la route.
by Josenka on Jul 23, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Drew loves this as well - I suggest one of the stages be the Koppenberg Cross course
I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man.
by Drew... on Jul 24, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
replace TTT with triathlon-stage
i bet hes a lousy swimmer
by agostinho on Jul 24, 2009 7:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All of the above and more
I would add more high altitude climbing over 2000 and even 2500 m, where he is still great but can’t sustain his attacks…possibly a function of VO2 max?
They will also need to cut back or cut out Cat 1 mountain finishes at modest altitudes like Verbier, where he’s been dominant since he entered the sport.
Would also love to see a stage with cobbles like in the 04 Tour. A cobbled short finishing climb — which France has — would also be great.
And they really need to bring back two flat, windy 55+ km ITTs. TTT depends on his new team.
by Mr 60 Percent on Jul 23, 2009 6:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
OK, you took care of Contador
Now, how do you stop Zombie Maurice Garin from winning a Tour like that?
by Jens on Jul 23, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
By leaving enough brains on the course...
… that he misses the time cut.
by Noah on Jul 23, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and arming all the other riders with spears
Bah... Garmin.
by cg. on Jul 23, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Caisse were almost spectacular in the TTT with a 'B' team of sorts this year
so no chance theyre getting worse by adding AC/Paulinho
by agostinho on Jul 24, 2009 7:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
weight handicapping
You win the stage you get a weight penalty for the next stage, top n riders also get penalties in reducing amounts. Maybe the same for the green and polkadot competitions too.
Give out time bonuses to those riders so they still go for the wins.
Blame my wife!
Waiting until August!
by sir eccles on Jul 23, 2009 7:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Think like a Japanese contest show
Sure he can climb, but can he avoid the pop-up giant inflatable hand?
ABRUZZIAM...uh oh
by Chris... on Jul 23, 2009 8:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
takeshis castle goes french
i like that.
"at the end of the day, it's only the tour de france."- bradley wiggins (and majope)
by benrazor on Jul 23, 2009 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Phil and Paul would have to be replaced with
Kenny Blankenship and Vic Romano. And I think ‘Boulderdash’ should be prominently involved.
I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man.
by Drew... on Jul 24, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
New cadence rule:
rpms can’t rise above 50. Grabsch wins every fucking year.
by plinytheelder on Jul 23, 2009 8:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What gear is he using on Ventoux Paul?
I think it’s a 56X11 Phil, but It might be a 12.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
by Ed K on Jul 23, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Knee replacements for all.
I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man.
by Drew... on Jul 24, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gent-Wevelgem
or any course with massive cross-winds.
by R Mc on Jul 23, 2009 8:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, cobbles and crosswinds!
Mon coeur appartient aux les forçats de la route.
by Josenka on Jul 23, 2009 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's a great point
the one consistent weakness that he has shown is the wind.
"Never swing a small stick. " Andy Hampsten
by Hons on Jul 23, 2009 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
steep classic climbs throughout...
All hilltop finishes should be HCs. I like the classics idea since you could really isolate GC guys. Need longer climbs earlier in stages (not necessarily hard climbs). In the end, I don’t see how you can design a course that doesn’t suit Bert.
by Cycho on Jul 23, 2009 8:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
beauty pageant handicap
The usual TT and climbing stages, plus:
All transitional stages end for AC only with a beauty contest element at 3 km from the finish line: Must dismount for evening wear, swimsuit (maillot style, no bikinis or Speedos), talent (excluding athletic talent), congeniality contest, and Q and A with MC.
by Steno on Jul 23, 2009 9:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
inject him with large does of CERA while he's sleeping before stage 1?
by whistlingmountain on Jul 23, 2009 9:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
will make it way worse
and they probably wont detect shit
by agostinho on Jul 24, 2009 7:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The question wasn't "how to make sure Tom Boonen is relevant at Le Tour"!
Vamos Alberto!!!(Contador not Ricco)
by Phil H. on Jul 23, 2009 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man, Bert hits those cobbles
and it could be years before he returns to earth.
by ursula on Jul 24, 2009 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whats the point?
Hello I am new this is my first post. What I dont understand is why make a race so one individual cant win it? Just creat a race and let the best win! There are differant races all year that suit all sorts of diff skills and abilities. Let those win those races and the others win the others. May the best rider and team win. After all it is a team race isnt it? That is why there is a limit on the numbers of teams and the number of riders per team.
I know everyone is have fun with this but the reality is that Contadore is showing what he has weather we like him or not
by ocenguard on Jul 23, 2009 10:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well the options present in the post will probably never happen
I think it’s more of a question of what type of course might have the best chance to stop him, what would be his weakness. You can be sure the Tour will continue to have the Alps and Pyrenees every year. Hell, I thought this year didn’t suite Bert that much and didn’t open up the chance to win big….I am very gladly horribly wrong!
Vamos Alberto!!!(Contador not Ricco)
by Phil H. on Jul 23, 2009 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Welcome! Happy to see a new poster. I think Softie (the author of this post) is simply a fan of
Julie Andrews and The Sound of Music and couldn’t pass up the chance to leave us all with
“How do you solve a problem like Maria?
How do you catch a cloud and pin it down?
How do you find a word that means Maria?
A flibbertijibbet! A will-o’-the wisp! A clown!”
in our heads for the rest of the day. The Bert question is just a decoy. Besides Maria/Bert are good problems, right?
by ZoeRochelle on Jul 23, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It sure worked on me, I'm getting ready to pop the revamped DVD in right now.
by sminer on Jul 23, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember
1st seeing it at a drive-in when I was 9? I think.
by ursula on Jul 24, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i remember 1st seeing it on first go around in a theatre in downtown detroit...
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Jul 24, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're showing your age...
…if you remember a downtown Detroit. :(
by gregm on Jul 24, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hell, i don't care if people know how old i am. as long as they don't know what my birth date is
speaking of which, they can’t be serious about doing a remake? with cameron diaz as maria?
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Jul 24, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
any movie with Hors Categorie mountains
is OK with me
sometimes life is a false flat
by Willj on Jul 24, 2009 3:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that honor goes to Titanic, I'm afraid.
Celine Dion and Leo DiCapria = hurl like penguins of madagascar
by R Mc on Jul 24, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
or every whoopi goldberg movie
sometimes life is a false flat
by Willj on Jul 24, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so you haven't seen Macauley Culkin's Richie Rich then?
by bruyere on Jul 24, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DiCaprio used to make fantastic movies
Basketball Diaries, Romeo + Juliet? Fantastic. But then came Titanic and all. And faced with the choice of making hundreds of millions of dollars, or keeping the respect of guys like you and me? I know what I’d pick . . .
by Sui Juris on Jul 24, 2009 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I completely agree..
…never saw BB diaries, which is just pathetic b/c Catholic Boy (Jim Carroll’s magnum opus as a rock singer) is one of my favorite records. Romeo and Juliet was a piece of work though. Very fine. Though I will say that the leads were not the strongest actors in the film.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
by Ed K on Jul 24, 2009 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a thought exercise.
The goal is to make it not be a foregone conclusion that he’ll win all the grand tours, every year, for the next decade, which will dry up the funding source for other teams, and discourage quite a few young cyclists from going into road racing (at least, with an emphasis on grand tours) as opposed to classics races, cyclocross, track, being a stockbroker, etc.
It’s a mark of respect for his ever-increasing overall prowess that there’s a thread like this—it’s not a hater type thing.
by JFS_PGH on Jul 24, 2009 2:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hi!
I think Softie said it in his post: the organiser wants to make things unpredictable and exciting to keep fans (and thus sponsors) interested.
But if you’re the ASO, how do you design a course to create dramatic tension and prevent Alberto from being ahead by four minutes prior to the capstone moment of Le Grand Boucle?
by tedvdw on Jul 24, 2009 5:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point is NOT to keep Alberto from winning
It is to keep him from clinching the victory after stage 15 with 7 days to go. Just want to make sure the Queen stage and final TT are meaningful. This is nothing new. The organizers tried some crazy stuff to neutralize Lance’s dominance. (The Alpe D’Huez time trial anyone?) .
The fact is, all courses benefit some and hurt others. You just don’t want to make a course that benefits the overwhelming favorite. (This year’s Tour was made to keep Alberto close until Ventoux, But the TTT killed that idea. Honestly the Astana Behemoth killed this tour before it started).
by trystero on Jul 25, 2009 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Include Mountainbike
Then maybe Cadel can win
by perezbike on Jul 23, 2009 10:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This gives me another idea...
Tandem Team Time Trial… with LA as his stoker.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
by Ed K on Jul 23, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Be good for Kenny
Couldn’t get dropped and always out of the wind.
by fancan on Jul 24, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, my idea was that he and LA would never be able to agree on when to attack...
…so paralysis would rule the day.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
by Ed K on Jul 24, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like the tandem idea
matching 1st with last, 2nd with 2nd last etc
sometimes life is a false flat
by Willj on Jul 24, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you stop him?
You give the Italians access to the samples of the OP blood bags marked AC, you send the Tour into Italy and problem solved.
Racing for Victory and Free Beer!
by DemonCats on Jul 24, 2009 12:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So is this incorrect then?
Because according to this somewhat old article, there is no bag, only a mention of his initials at one point…
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
by Ed K on Jul 24, 2009 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone really know what the Spaniards have?
Racing for Victory and Free Beer!
by DemonCats on Jul 24, 2009 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Initials and some "papers" that are supposed to have gotten stuck in
with papers from some of his teammates.
by JFS_PGH on Jul 24, 2009 2:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ahhh, the joys of racing for Mr. Saiz
thank goodness he joined a team known for its drug-free stance and 100% suspicion-free riders where he’s been able to naturally lift his VO2 into the high 90s.
https://twitter.com/KankiKnight
by oldsprinter on Jul 24, 2009 4:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry Ed K...
But Contadors TT improvement reminds me of The Chicken’s improvement in the TT.
And as we have learned in the past, if it seems to good to be true, it usually isn’t.
Racing for Victory and Free Beer!
by DemonCats on Jul 24, 2009 6:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And his position is much tighter than it used to be.
Of course, it’s easier to hold the position when your legs and lungs are not screaming, so that’s the built-in counter-argument. But I can’t believe they don’t poke him full of holes as often as they poke Lance. And that’s a lot of holes.
by JFS_PGH on Jul 24, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Chicken got caught within weeks.
And the Chicken’s Jump was HUGE compared to Contador and he was already 32 years old when he suddenly became a different rider. Contador improved in his mid 20’s, the age when all great riders emerge and add a second dimension to become a champion (Climbers become TTers, TTers become climbers, etc).
It is a different world now. If AC were doping he would have been caught, or will be soon. Until then, can we assume these guys are generally clean (at least during the tour and the few weeks before). Then if/when they get caught, be as savage as you like. If you think someone must be doping just because they got good or did something unexpected, It is impossible to enjoy sports (which of course is why doping is so insidious.) It is exactly the French tabloid argument against Armstrong. “What he did was so amazing, he must have cheated.” If athletes aren’t allowed to amaze, what’s the point.
by trystero on Jul 25, 2009 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All I can say is I hope I am wrong.
Remember when Basso one the Giro by nine minutes?
But the list of offenders that seems to have cheated is interminable.
Basso, Heras, Landis, Vinokourov, Hamilton, DiLuca, SELLA!!!, Kasheckin, Rasmussen, Ulrich, Pantani, Riis, Dekker, Schumacher, Kohl, Valverde, Scarponi, Ricco, Piepoli, Beltran, Mazzolini, Sinkewitz, Jaschke, Millar, Etc…Etc…Etc…
Plus Operacion Puerto, Midnight Trains to Freiburg, Rabobank and Humanplasma, Festina, etc. etc. etc.
You know what I mean. If Contador was your wife, would you trust him?
Racing for Victory and Free Beer!
by DemonCats on Jul 25, 2009 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd trust him to wear a condom and wash the lipstick off his collar.
Basically, it doesn’t seem reasonable that he’d dope to the extreme degree needed to create the performances that he’s giving basically out of whole cloth. Are he—and other people—microdosing at levels they’re pretty sure are undetectable? Maybe.
by JFS_PGH on Jul 25, 2009 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just a whole lotta dopers...
that seemed to go years without getting busted. What worries me is that the system that catches cheats isn’t infallible, otherwise, as Ricco stated, all of his samples should have come back positive.
They all doped in the dark, when no one was looking.
Racing for Victory and Free Beer!
by DemonCats on Jul 25, 2009 2:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there's amazing
and then there’s extra-terrestrial amazing.
And . . . we’ve been trying to figure out a guideline to distinguish between the two for a while now.
But why do we need/want to be amazed so much that we’re willing to be duped into being amazed?
by R Mc on Jul 25, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My suggestion is simple, but maybe lethal for the rest of the peloton.
Take the races up the flatter road, and down the steepest road—always. But this is a variant called “how to hand it to Cance and SamSan, and make all of Rabobank cry.” But one solid cobbles stage might indeed do the trick. (Do we know that he can’t do cobbles, or are we mostly assuming he’s too light and will bounce around?)
by JFS_PGH on Jul 24, 2009 2:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
would be fun to see him try.
I imagine cobbles and wind are to his disadvantage, but that doesn’t mean he couldn’t still be pretty good. But when you can win grand tours, maybe “pretty good” at classics isn’t so interesting.
by yeehoo on Jul 24, 2009 5:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's Spanish and not named Flecha or Freire
We can assume that he can’t do cobbles.
by Softie on Jul 24, 2009 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And he's from Madrid, not some tiny town in the steep mountains
that’s still mostly cobbled. If you google [cobbles Madrid] you pull up a book called the Happy Golfer, from 1914, with a paragraph describing the de-cobbling of the city:
As to Madrid, never was such a quick transformation accomplished in any city of the world, save when ’Frisco perished and was made again, as is being done here in the city on the plateau of Castile. The Spaniards having decided on the regeneration of their country and on persuading foreigners to come to it, have determined they must have a capital befitting a first-class power. The result is that Madrid is being torn to pieces and rebuilt. […] Thirty-seven millions of pesetas were lately voted by the Municipal Council for the removal of the cobble stones of Madrid, their places to be taken by asphalte and wood. The cobbles of Madrid are picturesque; they make good harmony with those antique watchmen who seem to have been reincarnated from our own eighteenth-century London, walking the slumberous streets at night, lanterns in their hands and jangling bunches of giant keys suspended from their girdles, their business being to open the outside doors of blocks of flats for late-returning occupiers who in an unthinking languorous way of Spain would carry no keys, but leave the affair of their homecoming to the fortune of the night, the vigilance of the watchman, and the blessing of Providence. But the cobbles are not convenient. They are seldom repaired, and even in such a spacious public place as the Prado, which is a kind of Hyde Park Corner, there are sometimes deep holes which fill with water when it rains and make such pools as ducks might like and dogs would drink, but which take a leg of mine some way upwards to the knee when the night is dark.
And I have to say, if you told me that I’d be thinking of finding / buying a 1914 book about golfing and golf travel, I’d have looked funny at you…but this is pretty good stuff.
link here.
by JFS_PGH on Jul 24, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
deep holes which fill with water when it rains and make such pools as ducks might like and dogs would drink, but which take a leg of mine some way upwards to the knee when the night is dark
Oooh that’s nicely said. :)
by gregm on Jul 24, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the whole thing is online if you follow the link. I downloaded some of the pages
in case it goes away again.
by JFS_PGH on Jul 24, 2009 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For one year switch dates with the TOC
Thus a Februaury Tour de France still including
high Alps stages …. what’s a little snow? HTFU
sometimes life is a false flat
by Willj on Jul 24, 2009 3:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Get Bert on a weak team.
Bert’s 2 wins have/will come on teams that put 2 riders on the podium (Levi’s 3rd in 07 and Lance’s likely 3rd in ‘09) . Hopefully Bert signs with a team that overpays for him and can’t afford to help him much (ala Lotto with Cadel). Hopefully he goes on a team even weaker than Cd’E is now, or maybe Cd’E after they have to drop their current top 2 riders to afford Bert. The only weakness Berto has shown so far is he has trouble with team tactics .
Then you can play to stages that require strong teams. Like an early flat TTT where Cancellara can put the Schlecks high in the GC, and other top timetrialing teams can put their guys ahead of Bert. And if Bert has only a couple of decent mountain Lieutenants, set up a ton of chances for Saxo Bank and other teams to attack the heck out of him. (and have Bert kill his own mates- as he has shown a proclivity for). Then throw in bonus seconds so he has to respond to attacks. Basically tailor the race to the Schlecks and Saxo Bank, and make the whole thing play out like the stage to Le Grand-Bornand.
But if Bert’s team is good like this year, that is the worst strategy. If you need to hurt him personally, the only way is a long flat ITT early in the tour (before any Cat 1 or HC, maybe even stage 3). It would put Bert a few minutes down, then he spends the whole tour, attacking, catching up to Armstrong, Cadel, Levi, and other GC powerplants, all the while Cance tries to hold on to the yellow jersey as long as he can. Then you limit the long uphill mountain finishes (short mountains and downhills are okay) It could force Contador to attack on every climb.
The problem is that puts Andy Schleck out of the running in the first week. And that just sucks! The Schleck bros are fun to watch.
It is difficult because Berto’s top Rival (Andy Schleck) has all the same weaknesses as Bert. His only advantage is he is on the best team in the Tour and has possibly the best, most selfless Lieutenant ever (his own brother).
by trystero on Jul 25, 2009 12:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Unetical Collusion
Oh and have all the teams gang up against him to the point that there are ethical complaints and investigations into collusion. 171 guys against 9.
by trystero on Jul 25, 2009 12:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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