Changed impressions (or, I'm rooting for that guy now?!)
by bruyere on Jul 27, 2009 2:32 PM EDT
486 comments
Now that it's all over, I'm looking back at the beginning of July and finding that my thoughts toward and allegiances to a whole bunch of the riders (and other elements of the Tour) have changed dramatically. I'd love to hear what has changed (and why) for everyone.
Stayed about the same:
- the Schlecks. Friendly, exciting to watch, easy to cheer for. They could have finished much lower down in the standings and I'd still be proud of them.
- Cancellara. Huge efforts, blew me away with that downhill run, worked something-other-than-his-ass off in the mountains for his team.
- CVV. Gracefully moved to the support end of things for Wiggins and suffered when needed. Always gives calm and friendly interviews.
- Jens! It is not necessary to say more, even though more is better. JENS!
- Levi. Was eh, still eh. Can't get a read on him, but would like to see him really race sometime. Same for Hincapie.
- Freire. Yes, he underperformed, but gosh I like him. The interview after he got shot (shot!) was great.
- Cavendish. Amazing, cocky, young for his age. Yup, pretty much the same.
- France. So, so lovely. I still prefer the North, but I'd be happy to watch kids on tricycles move through the landscape.
Dropped down (get this one done first):
- Sastre. What happened, dude?
- Armstrong. The biggie, I suppose. I had never watched a race with LA in it (started my TdF obsession in 2006), but I had watched, over and over, video clips on Youtube. Incredible superhuman feats of ass-hauling. Although I still wanted Andy to take it, deep down, in the beginning, I was hoping for an LA revival, more of that amazing jump and drive. And sometimes, he had it--he hopped up and tore around like a man who has been out for as long as he has shouldn't be able to do, and he clearly held back on some stages. But then he would also continue to exist outside the race, still competing on Mont Media, and that ruined him for me. Versus didn't help. I'm not savvy enough about the race or riders to forego the sound, and the constant tearing down of other riders in favor of Lance was depressing. Speaking of,
- Versus. For as ridiculous as the ad breaks and commentary can be, prior to this year, I've enjoyed it all. Paul and Phil were soothing, Bobke usually had something to tell me that I didn't know, and the little historical features were always new to me. The unceasing Lance coverage, combined with the outright hostility towards some riders (Contador mostly) and ignoring of others this year made me question watching it next year. I signed up for cable for a month for this? I feel like there were exciting moments in the race involving other riders that weren't covered because all camera time was devoted to Lance regardless of what he was doing.
- Bruyneel. I thought he was a shrewd and gifted DS with the power to take the Tour whenever and however he wanted. Still think this, but I also now think he's a manipulative snake who thrives on being near the biggest drama queens he can find. He makes Riis seem like a kitten (I like that kitten).
- the Course. Yes, a few great stages, but overall, it failed for me, and the great stages can't undo that. None of the non-geek people I usually manage to pull into the race made it through this year. That hadn't happened before. It sucks to sacrifice time and sleep (West Coast martyr group, reporting at 5 a.m. for duty) to watch nothing significant happen, day after day, including on stages with mountains.
Improved!
- Contador. Although I can't remember why, I came in this year disliking him. I even sent in a mean Black Unicorn request. He handled a huge amount of crap while gracefully managing his race and never looking like any of it was an effort. Skilled, polite, and savvy on and off the road.
- Evans. Yes, something went terribly wrong and he can be whiny. But I finally understood about how much teams matter, so he gets the sympathy bump.
- Ullrich. Jan Ullrich. The pretzel picture! (Well, and the Coyle book, suggested by Sui Juris, who also pointed me to the Podium Cafe and mostly patiently listens to me blather like the newbie I am about various TdF stuff and I can't thank him enough for all of that.)
- Switzerland. Before: sounds pretty. Now: I want to go to Switzerland.
- the non-GC guys. I don't recall having any real awareness of the bulk of the peloton before, but thanks to you guys and Twitter, I'm now very fond of a group of them. Kenny! Ten Dam, de Kort, Garate, the Feillus, Farrar, Astarloza, Nocentini, Txurraka, Wegelius, Lancaster, and many more. Good guys, and I'll remember them and their efforts.
- my respect for the team aspect. The only good thing to come out of the continuous Astana drama, perhaps. There was more info and analysis this year about team strategy and tradition, and I learned a lot. Enough perhaps to want to watch other races. If they start later in the morning.
You?
8 recs |
486 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
Wiggins impressed the hell out of me.
He showed some big climbing potential in the Giro, but this time he kept it up to the end, and got a huge result. And I love that he keeps a sense of humor even under pressure. I’ll be happy to continue rooting for him.
Throughout the stage all I kept on thinking was: ‘don’t finish second, you can’t finish second again’.--Heinrich Haussler
oh yeah, I completely forgot Wiggins.
I’d never heard of the guy, but he chugged away and hung in there after everyone (including us here) thought he’d cracked over and over and over. He was great to watch in the same way as Garate was: here he is, doing something amazing, and looks like he’s pedaling casually in the park.
Wiggins
so long the guy at FdJ (?) that worked for the team. Was he Cooke’s leadout? Was he a sprinter himself? What exactly was his role? JV has found him a role, and what a change. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
wasn't Wiggans part of that mess too at one point?
I knew McGee was there, I couldn’t come up with his name… Hell he was even more ambiguous.. And he was supposed to be the team leader.
Wiggo spent years on Cofidis
trying to stitch together his track career, roadcareer and the occasional drinking binge.
He mainly focused on Prologues for natural reasons. Never really lived up to the trackresult-based hype even in the prologues though.
And Brad saw a few...
Teams
FDJ 2202 2003
Credit Agricole 2004 2005
Cofidis 2006 2007
Cavendish - "le Mozart du onze-dents" (the Mozart of the 11-tooth sprocket) – L’Equipe
"I’d never heard of the guy"
is why Brad has decided to concentrate on the road. Olympic gold medals in the last two games just don’t matter in pro cycling…..
I think it's the exact opposite in Britain
It’s not that I don’t agree with you (I actually don’t know why he changed, I’m sure there’s an interview I can read), but I would like to point out that in some countries a Olympic medal is more important than winning road races. It seems to be like that in the UK, and it’s definitely so in Sweden.
Staring at the swim team gets you killed by a gang of dancing ninja men who know how to twirl.
by TheFigurehead on Jul 27, 2009 7:17 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah
it is like that in the UK, because cycling has a fairly low profile here and most people know the TdF and that’s that. I think Wiggins changed because it’s post-Olympic year so it’s a good time to sort of ‘experiment’ and take a year out from the track and he really had never given the road his all, he’d always been balancing it with the track and he just wanted to see what he could do, really.
but
gold medals do not pay the biils.
from
Bradley Wiggins reveals descent into drink and depression following Athens Olympics
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/3121316/Bradley-Wiggins-reveals-descent-into-drink-and-depression-following-Athens-Olympics-Cycling.html
Wiggins says he felt "hugely undervalued" when commercial opportunities were not forthcoming,
a big +1 here
always kinda liked the guy though he was quite specialized and somewhat peripheral as that specialization meant he could only show himself at his best intermittently. with the addition of his new climbing ability and being able to keep cool and focused, not to mention funny, he jumps way up for me.
cool thread, btw :)
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
It's a really interesting post
Having followed this race closer than most, I certainly have new views on certain riders – but haven’t quite formulated them into thoughts worth writing yet. ;)
Re: Switzerland … the course barely touched the good stuff …. an amazing place if you like cows and mountains.
Your take on Cadel is insightful …. I think most people would instantly say the opposite …. but I like your reasoning.
sometimes life is a false flat
Roman Kreuziger really dropped for me
He’s young, undoubtedly talented, and has a chance to win MANY races over the next 5 to 10 years, it’s just that the Tour won’t be one of them. A little like Cunego in that sense, a rider with obvious class who can’t live up to the enormous expectations placed on his shoulders, he may finish 5th one day but not 1st.
Other than Kreuz, I will say that the Cadel Evans “era” is coming to a close. He was a constant cause of concern for the eventual winner the past few years but this Tour shows that he’s definitely on the decline, and unlike Kreuz there aren’t too many other races for him to fall back on.
Props to CVV for working his butt off and keeping his dignity (yes, that was a slap at Lance) and to AC of course and Andy Schleck as well. One point that Phil and Paul got right, don’t worry about Frank in the future Andy, he’s never going to win the Tour, you can.
Evans's revelation was in 2002
He really SHOULD have been competitive in 2005-2007.
I’m afraid you’re correct: he has reached his “sell by” date. Wouldn’t it be sweet revenge, though, if he could pull a Duclos-Lasalle and become a Classics winner . . . for some other team?
2002? Huh...
When you think about it Cadel has been around for a long time, and not being a complete freak of nature like Lance I would imagine the years are starting to take a toll on him. Winning Fleche or Liege is not of the question, unless you consider his lack of acceleration at the top of these steep hills a potential killer. I honestly feel a little sorry for the guy, he put a lot of effort into the sport while being rewarded with few big victories. Last year was his big opportunity and he missed it.
Giro 2002
the road race where Evans first made an impression.
Of course, he’d already been successful off-pavement, so there’s even more km on that motor than you’d think.
Bruyneel
the big change was Bruyneel. Armstrong is Armstrong and frankly, nothing he did in this Tour surprised me – both the good and the bad.
I did not realize that Bruyneel would be so willing to put his team into turmoil when he clearly had the best man by far.
To put Contador in that position, to allow the sniping, the goading, etc., was horrific team management.
Instead of just sticking to his pre race declaration that Contador was the leader and making sure his team tactics followed that line, he allowed Armstrong to act as if he was co-leader and said “it would be decided on the road.”
this despite the fact that Bruyneel knew, as he stated in an interview with el pais, that his only winning option was in fact Contador.
Did Contador follow team instructions all the time? Probably not. But from his perspective, I do not blame him. Why? Because his team was not working for him – the leader. Bruyneel used team tactics designed to help Armstrong.
Bruyneel would argue that he was strategizing for a 1-2-3 finish. But to Contador, given all the sniping allowed, he no doubt felt the design was to screw him in favor of Armstrong.
If instead, Bruyneel had made clear every day and said so, that Contador was the leader and that Contador winning was the main goal, then perhaps he could have managed the situation.
Instead, he fed all of Armstrong’s bullshit and that led to a fracture of his team and his strategy for 1-2-3 (a long shot at best anyway.)
Armstrong is Armstrong. I feel the same about him as I always did (can’t stand him.)
But I lost a lot of respect for Bruyneel.
by BTD on Jul 26, 2009 2:13 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Was a Contador fan going in
and of course remain one.
Love the Schlecks too.
Nothing changed there.
Agreed
I think trust was the key. If I was advicing Contador I would have told him ahead of the Tour to trust Johan’s calls. Regardless of his ties to LA he would give AC the best guidance to win the race.
It was probably a good thing AC didn’t feel that trust and rode after his own head.
Surprised and disappointed in JB’s attitude.
Completely agree re: Bruyneel's team management, though that's all year...
…still. Someone said in the post-race thread that perhaps LA’s diss of AC by announcing the new team mid tour was equaled out by AC’s comments pre-race that he was looking to leave Astana. But seriously, if you’d joined at team with the very reasonable expectation of being the team leader and being given support in the GCs and to defend your TdF title (when you were finally allowed to race it again), and suddenly right before the season starts all of that is called into question because some dude who’s not even getting a salary decides he wants to crash the party, and your Team Director allows it, um…
…yeah I’d be looking to get out too, and as fast as possible.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
IIn terms of leaving Astana pre-race
Contador actually never said anything at all. It was of course reported, apparently accurately, that he ha d a deal lined up with Garmin if Astana did not straighten out the money situation.
It was ALSO reported that Armstrong had something lined up as well.
It was also reported that Bruyneel had something lined up for BOTH Contador and Armstrong. (Bruyneel credited Armstong’s marketability for being able to do that. No doubt true.)
So that is not a fair allegation against Contador, who actually said nothing.
As you can see
I am a big Contador fan so I follow what is happening with him pretty closely.
Untrue.
Contador said he had a contract with Astana but was looking around in case there was something better out there. He specifically mentioned Caisse d’Epargne, but added that there could be even more attractive options.
Throughout the stage all I kept on thinking was: ‘don’t finish second, you can’t finish second again’.--Heinrich Haussler
and to be clear
I do not think the first part is not problematic. He is asked about whether he would have had a team if Astana did not solve its financial problems. He says nothing specifically on that.
But later he mentions CdE specifically FOR THE FUTURE and muses about going to other teams. Should not have done that.
I thought of it this way:
he signed a short contract with the team while Vino was clearly on ice. No worries for a couple of years. And then Lance gets injected into that nice, short period where Contador could have reasonably expected a “no drama” team.
Or at least, I was offended but not surprised that Vino is determined to come back, and noone can be surprised that he expects to be on Astana, and the Astana money expects him to be there.
One other thing that bothered me about Bruyneel
He kept saying he did not want Contador to attack because he did not want to defend the yellow jersey to early.
This seemed disingenuous to me (and I bet to Contador too) because Armstrong barely missed taking the yellow jersey after the TTT in Stage 4. In addition, at Arcalis (Stage 7), Armstrong was within 8 seconds of the jersey. But Contador was criticized for his attack because Bruyneel “did not want to defend” the jersey.
What if Nocentini had not kept the 8 second gap over Armstrong?
all of this just sounded like BS to me and I imagine to Contador too.
Besides which, for a team that didn't have the jersey,
they rode, 95% of the time, as if they were defending the jersey.
One last point on this
Despite rumors that he might switch to Caisse d’Epargne and defend his Tour de France title, Alberto Contador says he’s sticking with Astana, which received an un-vitation to the TdF and other events promoted by the Amaury Sports Organization.
Bully for him.
Andrew Hood of Velonews caught up with Contador and addressed the team-switch rumors.
Contador’s loyalty to team director Johan Bruyneel is admirable. Bruyneel took a chance on Contador last season with the Discovery Channel team, and the move paid off for both with Contador’s TdF title — Bruyneel’s eighth in nine years, including seven in a row by Lance Armstrong.
Q: How do you react
to the suggestion that Johan Bruyneel wanted Lance Armstrong to win before you?
AC: Well (laughs), it’s a good question. I don’t know. I really don’t know if Johan wanted one rider to win before another, that’s a question you have to ask him.
Q: Have you decided what you will do in 2010?
AC: What’s sure is that I will have a lot of hassle to see what will be my future. For sure, it will be on a different team than Lance. We’ll see what we can do, whether it’s a new team or find a team that is 100 percent behind me to confront this race to win it again.
http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/article/95937/contador-looks-to-paris
agree.
Bruyneel lost a lot of respect this tour, but, to be honest, he has handled almost nothing of this soap opera well from the time it was announced in the middle of the freakin’ Vuelta.
Oh I forgot about that...
…this is not the first time he’s basically said to AC, “I don’t care about you, I’ve got this thing with Lance…”
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
Bruneel told the truth - easily proved
Here is a new take. Bruyneel told the absolute truth. The road determines the leader. How many times have we seen the team leader Bonk, or crash, or just not have it. Sastre, Menchov, Basso, Ulrich, Hamilton, Armstrong, Landis, Pantani, Schleck, LeMond. The road determines the leader. That truth is absolute. If you read Carmichael you know lance was a huge long shot to win the Tour but he was a great backup in case anything bad happened to Alberto. And that is exactly how Bruyneel played him. The team worked for Contador for three weeks. The only reason there was anything to drivel on about is because Lance got lucky to happen to be on the right end of the Columbia split. The Columbia split !!!!. If you saw the race you know that Columbia drove that spit and the Astana guys didn’t join until the lead was shrinking drastically. What did that do ? It gave Lance about 40 seconds. Not enough to endanger the best cyclist in the world but enough to give Lance a shot at the Podium … and guess what, that is exactly what happened. Bruyneel is the best director in the sport and if you have been watching the sport for the last 10 years you’ve seen him make 100 right calls. Looks to me like a man that should be second guessed less and listened to more. ( PS – I’m a big AC fan but If Contador would have just trusted Bruyneel more and questioned the situation less, he would have won the tour, had a happier team behind him, no awkward situations with his team, and a much more satisfying victory. )
So how does
pouring Floyd’s blood bag down the sink lead to a happier team? Or even give you a plan B?
Ah . . . but in that split
Astana starts working when the gap drops close to 20 seconds—not when it was established as Bruyneel and Armstrong claimed later.
That’s easy to verify from watching the stage, because it’s at 20-22 seconds that Popovucy starts calling the other guys forward to start pulling.
And . . . if Contador were the undisputed leader of Astana, those guys would have dropped back to help pull him back up or limit the losses.
That play is as puzzling as keeping 3 guys back to pace a dropped Armstrong in the Giro.
.
i thought it was la he was urging the other two astani to work in the break
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
he = who
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
what's worse in my view was the ensuing hypocrisie
They criticised contador for almost getting the yellow jersey on that climb in the pyrenees (said they didn’t want to have to defend it), but when armstrong was less than a second from yellow that was fine. Plus after contador’s attack which got him too close to the yellow jersey to suit bruyneel, he was only 2 seconds ahead of Armstrong. Wtf? It is just sooo obvious why contador felt he had to look out for himself within this team.
I don't think so.
The peloton organized itself and was pulling back the break quickly. I believe the spilt had about 60 seconds and when the peloton had already reduced it down to 20 seconds is when the Astana guys were told to start pulling. JB said he sent them to the front because it looked like the split was coming together.
So you wouldn’t need to send anyone back, to pull AC up, because the entire Peloton was doing that.
JB was then trying to give Lance some time without endangering Contador …. and in the end that is what happened. I think.? …. AC TDF champion by over 4 minutes !
the thing is
this move coupled with the TTT a little later, put armstrong within a second of the yellow. No complaints from LA or JB. In fact they had worked hard to get there. Then AC attacks on arcalis and JB is not happy because now AC was too close to the yellow (6 secs with LA 2 secs back of that). Tons of criticism for AC because he had moved Astana too close to the yellow – in fact they were further back than before when LA was fractions of a sec behind Cancellara. He took time on everyone in a race where the opps for taking time were few and far between. And a serious double standard. Yellow is good for LA but not for AC.
I think you can defend LA’s move to get time that day – scrap his way up to a podium spot. But how can you then criticize AC’s move to get time on Arcalis?
I see your point and you may be right but
the TTT was going to put time into the Schleck’s so they had to go all out ( AC won TDF easily because of it ) and the split was a product of a Columbia move and a lucky break on Lance’s part.
If JB’s plan had been to let the Schleck’s do all the attacking and let them exhaust their reserves while the Astana guys followed wheels saving the energy for the kill later in the race, then AC followed his own plan instead of his directors. I think all the 3-time Grand tour winners might have done the same but it doesn’t endear you to your boss when you follow your own plan … and if your plan eventually ends up costing 2 of your teammates 2 minutes, then maybe you deserve a little criticism. Very little criticism(!) but put yourself in JBs place; my guys TTs better, my team TTs better, should I take risks pulling two tremendous climbers up the mountains or should I let them do the work and clobber them when they are cooked. I think JBs plan was foolproof and ACs plan was courageous and exciting but risky. If you were the director which plan do you think Astana should have followed ?
do you
listen to Bruyneel before or after he is bullied by Lance ?
“After the race JB had no problem until lance came in and started shouting”
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=61065#post61065
i remember a quote from bruyneel
(sorry, no link) laughingly saying that you didn’t tell LA what to do, or what the strategy was going to be. You made suggestions but it was as much lance as it was bruyneel who made final strategy decisions. ( this came from before this year’s tour of course)
Again, I don't think so.
AC said that he spoke to Kloden and Kloden said he was alright and that AC could attack. When AC saw that he was dropped he slowed down. So the comment that Kloden said that he must go on without him because he was on his limit would not make sense since AC slowed down once he saw Kloden was dropped. ( and you see AC looking backwards repeatedly and slowing down in the video.
What was a 2 on 2 became a 2 on 1 against AC …. and Lance and Kloden lost over 2 minutes to Andy. ( Cadel might have some insight on how disadvantages it is to be 2 on 1 or 3 on 1 against you )
On any other team AC could make that mistake without criticism because he is that darn good. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t a bad move that might reasonably get a few comments from LA and JB.
Hmmm
Up:
Hushovd: His ride on stage 17 (?) was exceptional, a thing of beauty to the see the Green jersey lead over some sizeable bumps way out on his own.
Cavendish: I bought the whole arrogant SOAB before the tour. But you can’t deny the supreme talent that he is, and i think hearing him after the stages has made me reappraise his personality a bit. In a good way.
Verbier: I went skiing there once and it sucked, because of the weather. Nice to see what it is like when visibility is more than 5 meters!
Hincapie: That final drag today was mighty impressive. Made of steel that guy.
A. Schleck: I’ve always like him, a lot, but he impressed the hell out of me with his TT in Annecy under a lot of pressure. I was expecting (sadly) a meltdown, and it didn’t happen.
Pellizotti: I love anyone who goes on the attack, and he did it plenty. Nice effort on Ventoux to drag himself back to the main group.
Down:
Tyler Farrar: Nice kid, bigtime talent. But i expected him to be a little more involved at the front then he was.
The course: What Bruyere said.
Menchov: I know he was probably tired after the Giro. I know he is getting old. But a pretty poor show from the Russian.
Hesjedal: Harsh. But i’m Canadian, and I don’t think I saw him once (I missed a couple stages). Booo.
Boonen: Why did he bother again?
Same:
Lance: He is what he is. Honestly, I don’t think anything surprised me. Magnificent cyclist, big ego. Rinse and repeat.
Contador: Awesome. But I thought that anyway, so he stays put.
Wiggins: He’s a class act, in every way. I am a huge track fan, so already had him in the highest regard, so he can’t move up. But he was brilliant, didn’t expect such a performance from him.
Rabobank: Garrate’s win up the Ventoux salvages them. Just.
Thor by far
is who I had the biggest change – went from meh to impressed. And he and Cav seemed to work thru their emotions and share a genuine congrats today after the stage. He handled winning the green jersey over Cav w/ grace, and needed ever bit of that Alpine breakaway!
Well done Thor!
Hesjedal
He rode fine. His mates said after the TTT he rode the hardest to finish 5th for Garmins 2nd place. He was in a break at least once. He got me 10 points on my TdF team (gotta pick a homie if there is one[Canadian here too]).
+1
I thought one of the best pieces of pure domestique work all tour was the way Ryder held the wheel in the team time trial. If I remember rightly Garmin had the best split from the top of the hill to the line, they were flying! Done by four men taking pulls, and one (Ryder) hanging on for grim death – which he did with aplomb. If he dropped off there was no team time – full stop. Why they invented the phrase “World of Hurt” I imagine.
To then be able to on a breakaway any time soon – not bad.
Cavendish - "le Mozart du onze-dents" (the Mozart of the 11-tooth sprocket) – L’Equipe
Agreed. He was always here as a domestique...
…and performed admirably in that role.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
while sporting an awesome haircut
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
Well there ya go
I must have missed that stage where he broke. And like i said, harsh anyway.
Criticism retracted.
He was the break, solo
for awhile on the Verbier stage. The break started getting soft and looked like it might get caught, so Ryder went solo. He got over a Cat. 3 climb alone, then sat up and waited for the remainder of the break, which was down to about 10 by then, including Spartacus. That was the stage where Cancellara did a short turn on the front for the Schlecks when the GC boys caught his break at the base of the Verbier climb. After he popped he and Hesjedal rode up together and didn’t lose a ton of time.
Mountain 4 – Côte de Prévonloup (Cat. 3) km 74.0
1 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Garmin – Slipstream 4 pts
Full results
1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 5:03:58
2 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:00:43
42 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Team Saxo Bank 0:04:14
44 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Garmin – Slipstream 0:04:23
I would pretty much agree with this all around...
except for putting a DOWN for Sastre… he was wrecked from that Giro, chasing a doper around, and probably thought that with enough rest he could get over it but it shows again why cycling is one of the hardest sports around. He probably should have just gave up on the G.C. such as Pellizoti and gone for another stage win or mountains .Same goes for Menchov.
My big UP that hasn’t been mentioned all ready if for (BBox) Bweeeeg!! I have to say that they had a pretty fantastic Tour with 2 stage wins and almost always having a man in the breaks. They also have to applaud their youngster, Pierre Rolland, who was at his first Grand Tour and managed 22nd overall at 22 years of age…He might not be a Schleck or anything but for the French it is something to cheer about.
I'm sorta putting Carlos on the down list as well
Not for his riding for the reasons you list. He has however seemed strangely and uncharacteristically off balance and not really behaving like the champion I know he is. I suspect we will learn the reason for it at some point. Still, a little disappointing.
This I think is a very astute observation...
…for a guy who’s usually so even keeled and gracious, something seems a little off. Though he has been treated with an awful lot of disrespect in all this.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
hmmm...
i get the impression that he just felt disrespected for a returning champion. this is one of the backstories that i am curious to learn more about in the coming days/weeks…
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
I think that a different team approach
to that lack of support would have helped him express himself. I just have to think that Cervelo would have benefited from better handling of their guy. Not to say that Carlos wasn’t due some respect, and rightfully ought to have expressed his dismay at the circus that Astana made of the entire month.
I don't really understand Cervélo well enough
to say, but last year’s dedication of CSC to Sastre was about as good as it gets. Very hard to replicate, I’d think.
however you look at it
Cervelo is simply not a GC team, whereas CSC/Saxo is. True, with Schlecket coming up, Sastre was not going to get the same support he did last year, but I think Cervelo was maybe not the best choice, maybe only a step up from *Lotto.
Kim Andersen (DS on Saxo) did a post-race interview where he was asked about Carlos
You could tell he was kind of sad but also a bit “I told you so” when he pointed out how they (CTT) never managed to bring Carlos to the climbs in the right position. "but it was his choice and he will have to live with it " he mumbled, not gloating but clearly saddened at what might have been. I doubt Bjarne would be able to avoid gloating though.
"they (CTT) never managed to bring Carlos to the climbs in the right position"
this was evedent more than ever on Ventoux. Carlos had been saying for a while that he wanted that stage win, but then he got on the wrong sid eof a split in the peleton. That stage win could have saved him a lot of grief.
"Never swing a small stick. " Andy Hampsten
THOR
Super impressed with Thor. Went for green even though he couldn’t get around Cav. I am not pulling for him bigtime in the Forest of Arenberg next April.
OK, my list
Up:
Armstrong’s performance: Attitude wise, he still annoys me, but did I think he could finish 3rd? No, props for that and being a good teammate.
Garmin: Oh, I like me some team vs. team rivalries, no gifts to the other American team, and two top 10 guys.
CVV; Great domestique who gives it his all and still able to place top 10.
Thor: Awesome ride to win the green.
Saxo Bank: Awesome ride to liven things up, Schlecks great and Jens! is the shit
Same:
Bert: Loved him before, love him now.
Cav: Still think he’s an arrogant asshat, won’t be impressed until he can handle losing, which he didn’t show he could, seeing he only was full of praise after winning. If he can start handling defeats better I will no longer despise him.
Route: Was OK with it going in, hated the first 2 weeks, loved the last week, so still OK to me.
Down:
Brunyeel: So he knew he could only win with Bert but still decided to support Lance the same if not even more than him? And made life a living hell for Bert, which obviosuly will help him win right? Yo JB, you’re at the Tour not the loveshack, act like a professional.
Versus(especially Liggett): Don’t care that they drooled about Lance, they have to play to their audience, but the blatant Bert hating was nauseating.
The Giro: No, I still love it alright, but after Mench and Sastre were so weak it is tough to see any of the major Tour contenders going to the Giro to win in the future, hope I’m wrong.
Vamos Alberto!!!(Contador not Ricco)
:(
Hadn’t thought about that re Giro. I sure hope you’re wrong Phil.
"Never swing a small stick. " Andy Hampsten
Astarloza
Up! OK, he’ll never be top tier, but he hangs in there. Nice to see him get some results.
Ok, mine:
Up: Lance. Was not a big fan but the way he stubbornly forges his own way is awesome. He possesses the courage and fortitude of a champion and I admire him for that. If you don’t believe you could win, then why even race?
Up: Jens! Was already a big fan, now I have a serious man-crush on the dude. Hands down my favorite rider. He is the stuff of legend.
Down: Garmin leadership = Douche-baggery. If you are going to deny George the yellow jersey at least have the balls to come out and say it.
Down: Alberto Contador. Stabbed Kloden in the back. He had reasons for attacking Armstrong but I see no reason to distance himself from Kloden. Seems a very selfish move to me.
meh: All the English jocking Wiggins and Cavendish. Alright, we get it, the British Empire is resurgent in cycling. Jingoism is alive and well and living in England. Here I’m talking about the podcasts, as well as Phil and Paul…
this actually made me laugh out loud.
Aside from Jens, it’s like we watched mirror images of the Tour.
+1
Empire??? You probably don’t know this country very well. Most of the population of these islands dropped any notion of our importance in the world decades ago, it’s just a distant dream.
In pro cycling terms we’re a windswept mid-Atlantic outcrop. It’s such a genuine novelty for journos to talk about British riders on GC or winning stages we can’t help it – we’ve had nothing celebrate since Robert Millar 25 years ago. That’s a long drought.
Garmin = punchbag and/or scapegoat.
+1
and don’t get me started on the subject of jingoism – in the interests of detente i have held my tongue on more than one occasion, and i’m not talking about the Brits. besides, that’s a strong/harsh term to describe some proud fans, and i don’t see how a bit of British pride stacks up as any more jingoistic than what gets churned out in the name of other countries.
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
lol!
from a Canadian perspective everything else looks jingoistic :)
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
yeah nothing jingoistic from our side of the pond... NO way!
Take pride in the fat that Britain has some quality riders, lest they be lost in all that is power cycling media. Besides we have a new batch of retro testing coming around, and hell there just has to be a nasty surprise lurking from this year .. right?
Okay, Jingoistic may have been overstating it...
It just was amusing listening to the Brits wax so enthusiastic about how Bradley Wiggins will win the Tour de France. Then throwing in Cav and how everyone is going to go to the new Sky Team. I really don’t care what country a team is from and the whole thing of there being a “government sponsored” team scares me. But that’s just my opinion, what the hell do I know? I’m just a Cat 4 racer…
hmmm...
i thought Sky was a British-based team sponsored by, er, Sky News/TV not government sponsored. true, it’s meant to have a British core and develop British riders, but that’s not so different from some other pro teams that are privately funded yet have a particular national identity/purpose. we even had one of that sort of team in Canada up until last year. is it just the Brits who should curb their enthusiasm and curtail their “nationalism” or ought we to include those Belgians drooling over Jurgen VDB and the Kazakhs who want to reclaim Astana or the French who have decided to continue funding Bbox because their French riders did some winning or Lance getting excited about his “iconic American brand” or any other team developing young riders from the countries in which they are based? heh, what do i know anyway? i’m just a Cat 5 racer and the only reason i have more time to post than ride at the moment is because of injury.
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
No no...
Them to. Nationality is just an outmoded way of thinking…
well, it's a bit of a weird concept
these days, no doubt, and even weirder in cycling, but i think where home country comes into play is with the development of young riders and finding dollars. and as a “multinational” myself, i don’t really understand rabid nationalism, but i do understand the concept of home.
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
"how Bradley Wiggins will win the Tour de France"?
You must have been watching a very different feed from me. Or was it those devious podcasts? The ITV team admitted they had Wiggins slated for a top 20 finish at best and that they hadn’t imagined he would be even remotely near the podium. Suprised columnists had to discuss the change in the multiple gold medallist / part-time domestique who was done with the Tour after the Cofidis ‘adventure’ and how he had to be persuaded to return. He didn’t make a big deal of his conditioning, weight etc or talk up his chances.
The talk about the Sky TV team was mainly a PR opportunity for Brailsford, since he’s not going to get to talk about it much on terrestrial British telly now the Tour has finished. It hardly dominated the event. In this country cycling is like an annual 3-week eclipse, plus we get another fortnight of astronomical activity once every four years.
And isn’t Astana a government-sponsored team? What about US Postal? You could argue the FDJ/Lotto teams are effectively funded by government-led activities. A team still needs riders, whoever pays the bills (and I can’t see what difference it makes anyway). I don’t particularly like Sky (which last time I looked was a company owned by Australian Rupert Murdoch, not the Queen) but I’d prefer that name on my jersey over RadioShack any day.
Astana yes
Postal, no—the postal service is not actually a government agency. They’re in a strange zone where they’re sort of independent, but bound by negotiated rate agreements with congress.
neither sky or british cycling is part of the government
and bc’s money comes from the lottery I think which isn’t real a tax – except on the stupidly optimistic
by thebongolian on Jul 27, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
and Wiggins, himself, has clearly said he is not devoting himself to the TdF. rather, now that he knows what he’s able to do in a GT, it opens other potential doors.
while i might argue the right of Brits (and others) to cheer for their countrymen/women, i’m not naive about the shape-shifting and opportunism of sponsorship, Astana being a prime example. in this context, it makes more sense to me that teams registered in countries provide opportunities for riders based in those countries to provide development opportunities for up-and-comers, rather than simply exploiting civic/national pride to generate revenues for sponsors.
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
edit! grrr...
teams registered in countries provide opportunities for riders based in those countries AND to provide development opportunities for up-and-comers
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
VS broke the standard script for 5 minutes (on the online version)
and talked down Lance pretty harshly for chasing George. Instead of explaining or defending, the Astanii figured that the best defense is a strong offense, and the tweets came loud and fast from the Astanii. I imagine the bad-mouthing of Lance for being so unfair to his devoted ex-teammate may not have made it onto the television version—I saw bits of both, and truly, watching the two versions was not, in many ways, watching the same tour.
P.S. I thought it was ridiculous to say that about Lance OR Garmin
It being a race, and all…and both teams having very rational needs to chase at that point.
If you don’t believe you could win, then why even race?
Oh, please. The vast majority of riders in the Tour don’t believe they can win. They are there to support the best rider on their team.
True lucybears, I stand corrected.
But we all knew he was back to try to win and he pushed for that objective. What makes him so controversial and so interesting is that he almost accomplished it, regardless of what people said or thought. That is Will…
My movers and shakers
Up
Thor – truly impressed, with his performance (stage 17!!!), how he handled himself, all around professional.
GHH – Apparently there were a few more drops of kool-aid to drink from that well.
Mark Renshaw – I hope Cav rewards him nicely.
Alberto – I think the only reason the (mentally draining) kitchen sink wasn’t thrown at him because those throwing it were on the same team and they didn’t want to risk injury.
Down
Bruyneel – see BTD’s post above
Levi – was always in the meh camp on him, not bad, not good, just kind of there. Almost as if his tweets & interviews were blatant kissing up to LA. And it only got worse after he was out of the race!
Vs coverage – It’s natural to have your favorites that your drawn to talk about, but this was ridiculous. Really disappointing and kind of insulting. They do a disservice to their audience by not even attempting to keep fans around past the LA era.
Not ready to write this list yet, maybe later.
But one thing is clear, LA and JB did their brand no favors.
"…I saw bloody Cavendish coming, really fast…"
HH
Might depend...
On what audience you’re looking at. Podium Cafe is not necessarily an accurate sample of the world.
Of course...
The average American is about as discerning as Ronald McDonald.
"…I saw bloody Cavendish coming, really fast…"
HH
I'm not sure
even the average american sportsfan is pretty likely to conclude that Contador was the better rider. Those who do are also pretty likely to not be very impressed by the treatment he got from his so called teammates.
Better rider...
I think that part will be clear enough to most. Lance has acknowledged it, certainly.
But the brand perception is based on more than that, and I think Armstrong’s podium will still play well given the circumstances. As for the perceived mistreatment of Contador by LA/JB… I don’t think it will (or should) resonate much outside the cognoscenti. Snarky comments on Twitter hardly rise to the level of a Lemond-Hinault or Roche-Visentini controversy, where there was real on-the-road
conflict.
Agreed...
…team loyalty is a real thing in American sports culture. Having management and other teammates backstabbing a teammate does not look good.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
Adding...
…Vs. also seems to have several angles in their coverage. There has always been an emphasis on American / Anglophone riders, which is natural. But this year it sort of turned into Anglophones vs. the World. I think that this, as much as the ‘rivalry’ within Astana, was at play in the vilification of Contador… and yeah, I think it’s more than a little ugly.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
There's a lot of free floating anti Hispanic nativism stuff curdling and bobbing
in the US mixing pot these days. People getting beat up and killed on the assumption that spanish speakers are illegals, and illegals are trash. I know we’re not supposed to discuss politics, but I had to wonder if some of the Alberto trashing was feeding off of that undercurrent.
My feelings exactly...
…why I said what I said about the final montage that Sui referred to, and there were comments that had that feel to them or at least ticked my ‘oh my’ meter. There was obviously nothing overt or blatant, but there were a few times where I was made a bit uncomfortable by the overall picture and how it was being painted.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
again, that's aso's feed
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Jul 27, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
bitch at them
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Jul 27, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
The montages and stuff on the Versus broadcast were often edited ASO feed...
…ASO feed was what Versus was putting online, totally uncut.
“Picture” above was being used in a metaphorical, not a literal sense though.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
haven't seen the vs broadcast of stage 21 yet (heck i'm still back at stg 11 for them)
but at the end of the aso stream for stage 21 was that montage of conta “firing” his pistol and pictures being taken of armstrong and his kids
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
ahh, ok...
…well I’m less inclined to believe that ASO ‘meant’ anything by it than Vs. might have, given the totally different contexts.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
I'd have to agree.
I had a small hand in sponsoring a local crit here in San Diego today and had also had a vendor booth set up. I talked to quite a few folks (spectators, other vendors, cyclists, race volunteers), and based on those conversations, the BruyStrong brand is alive, well, and thriving untarnished.
As I’ve said elsewhere, they’re good for my business, but despite that, I can’t help wishing they would ride off into the sunset.
by The Team Chef on Jul 26, 2009 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions
repeated from other thread:
my big mover down:
Zabriskie.
On the plus side, was there when it counted in the mountains and DID help.
Negatively, he was nowhere to be seen (except Arriere du Peloton) when Garmin needed help in the lead-out trains. Boo.
I understand that he has experienced horrendous crashes and has difficulty handling the stress of the peloton. BUT he’s a professional cyclist and he is not performing up to potential.
I have a feeling that the robbery etc. *really* fucked with DZ's head...
…and he’s nowhere close to right yet. Just a suspicion, but he is not the same guy right now.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
if anyone else missed that story
(and if it’s further down, apologies for posting as I’m reading, and being late to the party.)
perhaps as evidence
DZ tweeted this today:
“Finally” with the following link
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
Big Move up
to Tyler Farrar for never giving up in the sprint and always going for it.
Big thumbs down to Versus for being so pro Lance and Anti-Bert. The fact that they cut out the rude handshake treatment of Lance to Bert on the Podium today to all US TV watching households pretty much says it all.
Heh. Seemed mutually cold to me.
And Lance seemed to be sucking on bile, from his expression. I haven’t seen someone that dissatisfied on a podium in a while. Or that’s how it looked to me, anyway. But I loved (!!) watching the “good buddy” hugs between Bert and Andy.
I'll weigh in here, wasn't going to but I will
Same:
helicopter shots – always great to see the peloton snaking down a switchback or through a roundabout
the drama – there’s always going to be a soap opera behind the scenes at the TdF, this year was not much different, everyone has their loves and hates and reasons why. Same story, different players.
bob and craig – so much better than al trautwig, if you think pandering was bad this year, you should have watched when trautwig was commentating.
phil and paul – phil talks, little miss echo repeats, phil mashes a statistic, paul corrects, they are a tradition and the race would not be the same for me without the two of them
Dropped:
I didn’t think George Hincapie could whine any worse, but he did it this year. Mr. Five Seconds was complaining about how he was treated by the other teams. Hey George, you don’t win bike races by expecting everyone else to ride SLOWER. Sheesh.
No real attacking, no great breakaways
Improved:
Great to see Lance back in the race. I love to watch the way he rides a bike.
Revived interest in the sport of cycling in the US.
The next four paragraphs from a nytimes article:
Already, Armstrong’s return has changed the landscape of cycling in the United States. Steve Johnson, the chief executive of USA Cycling, can attest to that. He said that Armstrong’s return this year had directly affected the popularity of the sport in the United States.
USA Cycling’s general memberships grew about 5.5 percent per year during the time Armstrong won the Tour from 1999 to 2005, Johnson said. When he retired, the membership dropped by 3.5 to 4 percent annually. This year, with Armstrong back in the peloton, Johnson said the membership growth was back at 5.5 percent.
Also, the network Versus, which broadcast the Tour, said the average viewership for its live morning coverage was up 95 percent through Stage 18.
"I don’t think it’s a coincidence," Johnson said in a telephone interview from the Provence region of France. "It’s pretty clear that now he’s back and there’s an increased awareness. People are interested in the sport."
Go Lance!
oh gag....
“I don’t think it’s a coincidence,” Johnson said in a telephone interview from the Provence region of France. “It’s pretty clear that now he’s back and there’s an increased awareness. People are interested in the sport.”
Sorry I don't understand your comment Fred? (neutral, not challenge, question)
Why is an increased awareness in the sport of cycling in the US a “gag” moment for you? Personally if I were in a business that had anything to do with cycling I would be cheering my head off in this economy. (Not to imply I know what your business is.)
Go Lance!
LA has something approaching zero
to do with USCF licensing growth since his return, is my bet. I expect that it rose proportionally with the massive increase in cycling that we’ve seen in the past couple of years. Maybe Steve Johnson can give a shout-out to Exxon and BP for that?
(to be fair, It’s Johnson’s job to wring out every bit of benefit he can from LA’s coattails. But the rest of us still get to laugh (or gag).)
yes and no
His visibility does work to make cycling a possibility for the “soccer parent” types.
And he is writing part of the check for Trek/Livestrong.
BUT . . . those factors are still minimal compared to the grass-roots involvement of hosts of people all over the place who mentor those juniors and beginning riders.
Not to mention that cycling and bikes in general have become 'cool'...
…in ways that have zero to do with Lance. As much as some of you may not love hipster fixie culture, it’s part of a bigtime explosion of interest in cycling in urban and youth culture. I bet its bringing participants and fans to the track, and there are similar movements increasing interest in the road.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
Also, you cannot discount LA's impact on growth in US cycling....
Q. Can you quantify the impact of Armstrong on cycling in the United States?
A. From our perspective, Lance has absolutely put the sport of cycling on the radar screen of a lot of young potential cyclists. He legitimized the sport. He demonstrated to an American audience that you can be an international hero, earn a seven-plus-figure salary, have the endorsements, do all the things that American sports heroes are known for. You look at that decision-making matrix that goes on in the heads of young prospective talented athletes, they’re asking themselves, whether they know it or not, where are the opportunities? What Lance has done is to clearly demonstrate that there are legitimate professional opportunities in the sport of cycling. As a result of that, we’ve seen a dramatic increase in the number of individuals who have decided to become bike racers; our junior numbers have doubled since 2000.
Lance has provided the opportunity for almost a prospective chronological study of the impact of an identifiable hero or icon on a sport like cycling. He was in the sport and successful for seven years and then out for three and now he’s back in. While Lance was at the top of the sport, our annual growth rates were, in terms of membership numbers, around 5 percent. When Lance retired three years ago, our growth did drop down to about 3 percent for a couple of years. Now Lance is back and our growth rates are back to 4.5 percent or close to 5. He definitely has an impact. Our membership numbers have more than doubled since 2002. Our number of races have gone up dramatically. Our number of clubs, all the things that you associate with growth of a sport, all those indicators are trending upward.
Go Lance!
I strongly believe these are the "kids" that grew up on the previous 7 tours.
This current upswing has little to do with his return, and more to do with his prior legacy. making this trend sound like anything else is just grandstanding.
And I meant to say
not that I don’t respect your opinion, but I’m quoting Steve Johnson, the head of USA cycling and the guy who sits in the office every day and reads the bottom line. What is posited from the comments above, that LA “has something approaching zero to do with USCF licensing growth since his return”, or “those factors are still minimal compared to the grass-roots involvement of hosts of people all over the place who mentor those juniors and beginning riders”, or “This current upswing has little to do with his return, and more to do with his prior legacy”, I honestly do believe these are legitimate opinions. However, none of you have been quoted in the NY Times so I kinda have to go with Steve Johnson’s opinion on this one. After all, I’m an old fat cycling fan whose cycling experience is to ride a Trek Navigator two miles with my 9YO grandson to get a soda at the Shell station. (Sometimes he challenges me to a race. I rarely win.)
Go Lance!
My advice: Twitter
“Raced the kid again. Didn’t go 100%. Kid looked strong. Still has a lot to learn though”
thank you. that's what I weas thinking.
Lance racing or not racing has about zero affect on ASAC licensing. I have to reason that guys and gals that are licensing today are doing it because they saw something that appealed to them long ago. I highly doubt it is a “Oh gee LANCE is back, I gotta go race” mentality. My experience is that one doesn’t just “decide” to go suffer on weekends simply because a persona is present in the pro ranks. Licensing is up. Lance raced again. Without some serious polling I suspect you will not see a correlation, outside of the two non-related trends.
Increased awareness is not the gag moment, it’s coat-tailing such as Steve Johnson is attempting. It goes along with the fawning media, and I dislike it immensely.
Yep I suspect the rise in fuel cost s is as much a factor as LANCE. After all many of these corporate type A’s have nice bikes, ride them more frequently since the weekend drive is out, and have discovered racing as an outlet like marathons. There are more cyclists on the road, ergo (more realistically) more are racing.
The real interesting stat will be how many of those USAC licenses are active on a regular basis, and how many stay active. That’s something to be sounding off about.
'zactly.
All the bike lanes, bike trails, “come out and join the races,” bulletin boards, advocacy groups, “green” goals, mixed with a good gas price scare or two and a bit of income panic? Good times for riding.
I do think that drivers honking less and giving the finger less
could come in part from the Lance effect. If so, thanks, Lance. But it could be the “no foreign oil / tired of middle east wars” thing. I do like less honks, more waves, and more people hanging out the window yelling “push! push! push!” instead of “get a car, loser!” when I’m on a hill.
I'm with you on most of those
Some notables from where I’m sat:
Up:
- Wiggins. My kids’ hero after the Olympics (I think the name was memorable, if nothing else). He should have given the profile of pro cycling in the UK a much-needed boost. Has nearly 25,000 followers on Twitter now, was about 2,000 at the start of the Tour.
- Jens. Is it possible? Such a character.
- Hushovd. A sprinter who climbs? Hard as.
- Cavendish’s leadout men. They just kept doing it, even after 3 weeks of torture. Superlative.
- Pellizotti for accruing points and, even when he had the jersey in the bag, giving it the berries on the Ventoux.
- Kenny van Hummel for wringing more light from the Lanterne Rouge (if that’s a reasonable way to put it). I’m tempted to add the inclusion of the Skil-Shimano team’s wildcard entry as they showed up regularly and I felt justified their inclusion. And the non-GC guys you mentioned, they add variety and flavour without distracting too much from what we all want to see.
- the scenery, with the world’s greatest cyclists snaking through it like the most beautiful mutli-celled organism. Visual poetry every day. I could cry knowing I won’t get to watch anything like this for another 342 days.
- Lance Armstrong the rider. I doubted he could get into the top 6, I thought I’d see him fade and be shown up as past it, but he hung in there and even showed the kids a trick or two.
Middling / who?:
- Sastre, Evans. They didn’t figure (for surely very different reasons), even though both guys should have been in the mix. Hoping they’ll shine at the Vuelta.
- teams like Caisse and Silence popped up briefly but disappeared again, leaving a lone rider near the front. C’mon lads, this is the Tour de France, show yourselves!
- Contador. He did what we thought he’d do, and was diplomatic despite the best efforts of his ‘team’. He could get promoted to the group above if I could feel more comfortable about whether he’s racing clean. He is nevertheless the classiest rider to watch.
Down:
- Cavendish. After his DQ the somewhat childish comments about Hushovd were only partially remedied by his late but full apology. Previously I’d defended him as admittedly cocky and blunt but he walks the walk. He’s not out for the count, just down a notch or two.
- Bob Stapleton, for needlessly pointing the finger at Garmin over what could be termed “Hincapie’s” 5 seconds. Left a bad taste.
- Leipheimer. Overrated. ToCal x3 does not a great champion make. You’re fetching the bottles next time mate, you missed your chance.
- Liggett & Sherwen. Pawns in Armstrong’s blatant bid for world domination by force. Such pathetic a**e-lickery, the like of which has never been heard before. The excess of LA-centric footage, most notably in the Annecy TT, made it even more unbearable as they had so many chances to fawn, worship and croon.
- the overall winner in this category is Lance Armstrong the man. A more unpleasan person I’d struggle to find, even in the corridors of power in Washington, Moscow, Tehran or Pyonyang. I would rather give up cycling than be in his team. Thoroughly unsporting and spoilt, I blame his mother.
you are saving me
alot of writing in this thread. once again, nicely put!
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
Thanks
I was considering a +1 post but felt that I still wanted to write, if for no other reason than to make me ruminate over the last 3 weeks’ entertainment. It ended up a little more verbose than I anticipated but I won’t apologise for that – we all know how to scroll down.
Nice to see lots here, many similar but some I hadn’t thought of and a few I’d obviously missed completely. Thanks everyone.
+1 again :)
yes, the writing does give one a chance to clarify one’s thoughts and perspectives, though it would be nice to be able to rewrite sometimes.
Cymru am byth! oops, that might have been a tad nationalistic :)
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
Nationalistic?
Cymru am byth, indeed! Are you local, boyo?
I see no harm in being proud of your country, your roots or culture. Equally it’s good to learn about other nations and languages.
When nationality, race or some other distinction – real or imagined – is used to the detriment of someone else, their country or status that nationalism can get unpleasant. There should be no “them”, only “us”.
agreed!
i am very proud to see the resurgence of the Welsh language and culture! my mother has learned the language in honour of my great-grandmother, whose first language was Welsh at a time when it was being driven into extinction. that branch of the family hails from Woolaston, which moved back and forth between Wales and England and is now officially in Gloucestershire.
my other grandfather came from Pembroke Dock where my dad spent his summers, and where i was about three weeks ago visiting my uncle and great uncle (to whom i am “boyo” of course!). Welsh was spoken in that branch of the family, too, which originally came from the Preselli where i was also this last trip. had i had time i would have caught some of the Nationals in Abergavenny as i was there that same weekend.
i have connections with Shrewsbury, too – if you know any Rowlands in those parts (Rowland’s Pharmacy as well as farming folk), they are my cousins. i love the Shropshire countryside. ancestors of this branch of the family came from Ruabon, where coincidentally another great-great-grandmother of mine came from.
now i think we have managed to sort out the difference between national pride and jingoism!
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
my favorite welsh story
When officials asked for the Welsh translation of a road sign, they thought the reply was what they needed.
Unfortunately, the e-mail response to Swansea council said in Welsh: “I am not in the office at the moment. Send any work to be translated”.
So that was what went up under the English version which barred lorries from a road near a supermarket.
“When they’re proofing signs, they should really use someone who speaks Welsh,” said journalist Dylan Iorwerth.
Granddad grew up in
Ruabon. Still a bit of family back there (thankfully he had enough luck and sense to escape the mining). I’m not one for shame, but I did have to say that I felt a bit of it when I wasn’t able to respond to Welsh pleasantries on the last visit.
i know that feeling
it’s embarrassing not to be able to speak the language of your people, though with time and practice it gets better. there are still people there on the Welsh side; not all escaped the mines but 3gt-grandfather was a blacksmith (from Montgomeryshire) and passed the trade down so they fared better. gt-gt-grandmother landed on her feet in Hampstead through a good marriage. the English branch that went there were builders and land agents at Wynnstay.
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
good post -
my opinions differ but the above are definitely defensible.
Up:
- Lance and George – loved them before. love them now more. i accept lance as he is so all the drama doesn’t phase me. completely expected and i actually give him credit for riding for bert at ANY point in the race. i didn’t really expect that to happen. good for him.
- Shlecklet – much to love there and he wasn’t really on my radar before.
Same to up a little:
- Cav – still not a fan of his mouth but on the other hand, the seemingly genuine hugs to the team after each win and gracious words of praise… well, that impressed.
Same to lower:
- Johan – also a master manipulator but less ‘cool’ about it than lance, if that makes sense. i fault him for not giving lance horner and going all the way over to where he wanted to be. wussy move. if you’re going to be lulled to the dark side, go all in, dude!
Lower:
- Bert – didn’t like him before . . . or last year . . . or the year before. like him a TON less now. all the talk about bert winning without a team is just that much talk - let’s see where he is next year when his new team loses minutes in the ttt or he bonks in the mountains somewhere because there’s no one telling him not to grab and hold the jersey from the first stage.
- Garmin – i was just coming over to the land of cheering for a non-lance american teams (yes – it took me two years.) but declaring war on george (george!) was unacceptable and has set me back years in cutting the apron strings.
Bah... Garmin.
ah, but the yet to be named spanish team could produce the cadel ttt effect, couldn't it?
and sastre’s new team didn’t really help him much this year either.
Bah... Garmin.
True, but the new Spanish team most likely won't come around until 2011
and I think he will select a team that’s already strong. And if he goes to Garmin, well then a) he will be on the strongest TTT team and b) you will hate them with a very large passion :)
Vamos Alberto!!!(Contador not Ricco)
I wonder if Sastre's showing with Cervélo
will be sticking in AC’s head while he’s sorting things. Cervélo was a gamble that paid off well for many, but not for Sastre (not, of course, to lay it all at Cervélo’s feet). I keep wanting to say that I don’t think Garmin’s talent is deep enough to support Contador, but that’s not really true, is it? Just seems to feel that way, though.
I wouldn't say it hasn't completely paid off well
2 stage wins and a 3rd at the Giro aint bad. Sure, his main focus was the Tour, but his poor showing may well have had to do with his strong effort at the Giro(see Menchov) and not Cervelo. To Garmin, well we know CVV will gladly be a domestique and Wiggins has indicated he is realistic about his chances of winning the Tour, and will also focus on trying to win the Vuelta(in the future), so he would probably lend a hand. I still think CdE is his best fit, but I now want to see him go to the evil asshats of the peloton.
Vamos Alberto!!!(Contador not Ricco)
yes - i would hate them with a white hot passion! :)
however, i’ll be really surprised if it happens. garmin has very consistently focused on english-speaking riders. i seem to remember an article that had jv listing that as being on purpose for bonding of the team, etc., but couldn’t quote it…
also it undermines their ‘american team’ story (a very commercial consideration).
Bah... Garmin.
Yes, very american, in that it's a big mix.
Dean (kiwi)
Millar, Wiggo (Brits)
Martin (Irish)
Tuft, Hesjedal (Canadians)
Sutton, Lowe (Aussies)
Dekkers, Duyn, Maaskant, Van der Velde (Dutch)
Patour (France)
A bunch of guys from Colorado, the northwest and CA…
and…
One meatball [grin] from PA.
So, to review
Teams don’t mean anything (“i actually give him credit for riding for bert at ANY point in the race”), but ha ha, you’re screwed next year, Bert, because you won’t have a team (“let’s see where he is next year when his new team [doesn’t save him from himself]”).
Heh. Armstrong won’t ever beat Contador in a Grand Tour. Bank on it. The fervored faith of the tifosi just isn’t enough.
I have no problem with that
I doubt LA has it in him to win another Tour, especially with Contador in competition. I doubt LA could win the Vuelta to be honest. I hope he competes though, I like watching him ride a bike.
Go Lance!
man
I somehow lost an entirely reasonable explanation of my view of LA. And it’s asking too much of me to do it twice in one day, so I’ll just say:
I liked his wheels today.
drip drip drip
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
really??
“I like watching him ride a bike.”
Why? I’m not trying to be mean here—but Armstrong.3 doesn’t ride gracefully anymore.
That said, he really DOES know how to read a race. And I’d love for him to make a serious assault on RVV or P-R.
Well, I do see
that the GT winners who so win, ride in Lance’s cadence.
I respectfully don’t agree that he doesn’t ride gracefully. Different strokes.
RE: RVV or P-R…ditto
Go Lance!
that hunch-back . . . eewwww.
and those socks . . . and for that matter, the dork-length of his shorts.
The man is a rolling fashion disaster.
Lance did not invent that cadence.
I am so tired of hearing attributes and techniques attributed to Lance and Bruyneel when in fact they were “pioneered” generations before them.
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
Totally in agreement.
Armstrong seemed (and I’m struggling for the appropriate word here) ungainly. He was definitely missing that grace on a bike he used to possess. I’m glad someone else picked up on that, because I didn’t want to seem like I was Lance bashing.
But, to counter that, he put on a pretty amazing display of race smarts.
And yes, why the hell can’t he give the Spring Classics just a little consideration by actually showing up to contest for the win? I would love to see the new “beefier” Lance try his hand at Flanders.
by The Team Chef on Jul 26, 2009 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Really agree re: the classics.
I’d have better feelings about his career and his legacy and his return if he made an attempt to broaden his engagement in the sport. Further, one of the positive ways he can use his fame in the service of the sport is to bring attention to some of the other great races that are overlooked by the parts of the world that focus exclusively on the grand tours. He’s lent a bit of stature to Gila and a few other domestic races. Surely he could help bring along a new audience to some of the great one day races.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
So true.
I can only imagine how many additional fans could be brought into the sport should Lance decide to throw some his considerable PR clout into gaining some exposure for something other than the Tour. Maybe that is just wishful thinking, because I’m not sure his participation in the Giro did a whole lot to broaden the awareness of Italy’s GT. Maybe it’s simply too little, too late. Had Lance ridden the Classics (and World Championship for that matter) early on in his Tour run, then maybe he could have helped add MSR, Flanders, PR, LBL, or Lombardia to the lexicon of the casual cycling fan.
Certainly, should he actually win a Monument, he could rightfully stake his place at the side of the other Grand Tour legends like Merckx, Coppi, Bartali, and Anquetil, all of whom managed to collect at least one Monument victory.
Without that big win in the best of the single day races, I think his long-term legacy will have to be somewhat behind those named above.
For those who want a far more in-depth look at this issue, please visit my Top 25 Cyclists of the Modern Era series of articles.
by The Team Chef on Jul 26, 2009 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions
He definitely raised the profile of the Giro
A lot of very casual fans were asking me about the Giro once Lance showed up. I even ended up loaning out copies of my 2005 and 2008 Giro DVDs to people who had never thought of it before.
I’m ok with his victories at Worlds and FW and his second-places at LBL and AG. I would have liked to see him keep competing in the Ardennes also but, oh well.
How would you evaluate Contador, who takes not riding the classics to an extreme?
by Mr 60 Percent on Jul 26, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I view Contador as a pure climber,
who also can TT. Yes, I know that’s stating the obvious, but I look at him kind in the same category as a Gaul or Bahamontes, neither of whom was expected to have done well in Monuments/Classics.
I know it’s extremely premature, but if Contador can manage to break Merckx all time GT record (11 wins), I’m not sure even the cycling gods would care that he never won a Monument.
Also, even though Bert is absent from the classics, he’s certainly not absent from two very important spring stage races, Paris-Nice and Tour of the Basque Country.
by The Team Chef on Jul 27, 2009 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions
by the way chef,
started checking out your 50 greatest blog site and really love it. Thanks for the effort.
+ bunches
I go back to that site all the time. It makes me think of new things; I start to play with numbers; before I know it three days have elapsed. That’s happened several times-what could be better?
Ah yes, a fellow numbers cruntching geek.
Tom from Bikezilla had asked if I was planning on ranking current sprinters, climbers, etc. I told him that was probably a project better suited to you. So, when do we see your rankings? Since the Tour is over, you’ll have nothing but time on your hands ;)
by The Team Chef on Jul 27, 2009 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions
You flatter me!
Your articles are much better than what I do.
I can imagine doing something this winter with majope. Let’s see…
and more bunches
awesome effort and great info!
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
How would you evaluate Contador, who takes not riding the classics to an extreme?
a good point, however it’s hard to argue pull down a guy who has won all three GT’s in a two (or is it three) year span, one of them twice. He also rides the short lessor stage traces such as Paris-Nice. So while he’s no classics rider he does ride a very full season.
i like what teamchef and karl, er, fred,
say. I would also add that conta rides those spring races to win, which is really nice to see. Also agree with philH that it would be nice to see contador do some giro-vuelta pairs, rather than just the tour every year. Would also be nice to see him give the ardennes classic a shot some years. Hell, to be honest, i’d love to see him give PR and flanders a shot sometime, just to see, but i guess that’s not likely to happen. When you can win big races the way he can, it’s unlikely he’d waste energy on other big races he isn’t likely to do so well at.
Finally, 4 grand tours in 3 years, plus some smaller victories and 2nd places. Love it.
i wish people would stop saying 3 years... it's 24 months minus 2 days for crying out loud
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Well...sort of.
Depends on whether you are counting the actual time elapsed, or seasons. He won 4 GTs in 3 seasons—the ’07 season, the ’08 season, the ’09 season. One season per year, so 3 years.
It would be like saying the Green Bay Packers won two Super Bowls in one year in the sixties—technically true, as Super Bowl I took place on January 15, 1967 and Super Bowl II on January 14, 1968—but from another POV it’s an absurdity, as there’s only one Super Bowl per year.
Throughout the stage all I kept on thinking was: ‘don’t finish second, you can’t finish second again’.--Heinrich Haussler
true, but there are three GTs per cycling season
and it’s not as if they were saying last year that conta had won all three grand tours in 2 years, it was actual elapsed time
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Chef nails the very reason he will always be
The greatest Tour de France rider ever. Anyone who want to place him on the alter of greatest cyclist of all time runs smack dap into his complete lack of competitive participation a=in any other race on the calender.
you mean Armstrong?
whenever someone says that I’m reminded of Hinault saying Merckx would have won 15 Tours if that’s all he’d focused on ;)
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2009 2:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh crap,
I forgot to add Hinault to that list of all time GT greats. Now he’s gonna come and kick my ass.
by The Team Chef on Jul 27, 2009 2:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd say P-R's impossible, Flanders something next to impossible.
The Ardennes maybe, if he hadn’t lost his burst of speed going uphill.
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions
I disagree.
A cagey old vet like Armstrong could certainly still win P-R, especially if he can bring some of that luck he seems to have at the Tour. Yeah, Flanders would be a big stretch. LBL would also be possible if he gets back some of his uphill accelaration.
All would be highly improbable, but damnit, I want to see him try. If he won one of these, my opinion of him as a cyclist would really go way up.
by The Team Chef on Jul 27, 2009 2:24 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah don’t get me wrong I’d love to see it too, I just don’t think he’d stand a chance at P-R. Wrong kind of rider for my money. I’d love to see him in the Ardennes again though, I just looked at his palmarès and he’s got 2 2nds in both LBL and Amstel Gold.
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2009 2:35 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah I recently watched that again, beautiful move at the end
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Dude are you serious? How many vertical feet in Leadville? How many world class riders at Leadville? I’m not saying he couldn’t ride P-R, I’m saying he wouldn’t be the least bit competitive. Put him back on Hincapie’s team and let him split up the field a couple of times before dropping out.
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Paris-Roubaix revisited
If Paris-Roubaix could be won by Coppi, Bobet, Gimondi, and Hinault, then Lance could (and should) honor the sport, and the race, and give it a whole hearted effort.
See, this is what I somehow just can’t get past with Lance – doesn’t he understand how this whole thing works? You know, cementing your place among the best ever.
Hinault absolutely despised PR. I think he likened the race to something like pigs playing in mud. Yet, he knew he wasn’t going to stand next to Merkcx and Coppi unless that win was part of his palmares. Doesn’t LA get this? Maybe he doesn’t care, which leads me to believe that he is not a true cycling fan, but rather a successful business man who just happens to be a great cyclist and chose to use the Tour to further his brand. Gah!
by The Team Chef on Jul 27, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Bing!
When he announced that he was coming back my first thought was great! He’s going to tackle some of the Monuments of the sport. How cool will this be to finally see him trying to win something other than the TDF.
Alas, I think that this has (so far) turned into a promotional exercise. One that still needs him to ride well – you don’t get third in the TDF taking it easy – but there’s so much more he could be doing from a cycling perspective.
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
I agree with you
and wish LA would try PR (I would have preferred to see him try and win the Giro this tear vs the TdF).
BUT, to many Americans ….. Leadville is a bigger race.
sometimes life is a false flat
I doubt that
I think that outside the cycling community Leadville is as unknown as PR.
I may be wrong, but Leadville gets little to no coverage, even when Lance raced it last time it barely rated a mention.
Not diminishing the race, personally I think it is borderline insane to ride (a) that distance on a MTB, or (b) that amount of climbing at that elevation; but to race it! That crosses over the boundary into insanity!!!
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
test-case confirmation
Until this subthread, I don’t think I’d ever heard of Leadville. P-R yes, but only because of you guys and ads during TdF.
Great comment – aside from P-R I agree with absolutely everything you say. To my mind this is the only way to make sense of Armstrong not doing the classics.
Maybe I’m wrong about Armstrong and P-R, given how many people disagree with me. But in terms of the guys you mentioned, well, I think Coppi belonged to a slightly different era, when there was a lot less specialization going on – i.e. he wasn’t competing against P-R specialists. He was also Coppi. Bobet was more of a powerful dude anyways, from what I can tell – he also won Flanders and MSR. I’ll skip over Gimondi and move to Hinault, since I think he’s the best example – maybe one could even throw LeMond in there, since he finished 4th one year, and also did a huge job for Hinault the year he won it. I just think those guys – Hinault and LeMond – were a bit better suited to flat-ish races than Armstrong. It seems to me that throughout his career, even pre-cancer, Armstrong – who to my mind is more slightly built than Hinault and LeMond – has relied on climbing to win races. Then again, he used to be a fantastic one-day racer – Hampsten said that when he first saw Armstrong, his first thought was that he could win any one-day race he set his mind to. I don’t know, I just don’t see it being P-R. I just think he relies on climbing to split up the field too much to win a race like that.
Again, I could be wrong, and given how many people disagree with me, I probably am ;)
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
watts are watts
Armstrong’s a rouleur who can climb, not a pure climber.
And . . . 2004 showed he can handle the climbs just fine, thank you. It’s pretty well known that he does a lot of dirt/gravel road riding in his TX training routes.
And, if not P-R, why not de Ronde?
OK, let me put it differently: check out the list of P-R winners for the last 40 years, and name me one rider who’s anything like Armstrong. They’re literally all big power guys. Hinault’s the guy who’s probably closest to Armstrong as a rider, but even he’s more gifted for this kind of race. I guess there are some partial exceptions in there – e.g. Madiot – but would you really bet against Armstrong to win against Boonen, Cancellara, etc etc etc?
I don’t think he’d stand a chance at Flanders either. I’d love to see him ride LBL, Lombardy, Eroica, that kind of race.
In the end, it’s Armstrong – one of the greats. So yeah, I’m sure he could win…I just don’t think he’d ever be a favourite, and I’d never put my $ on him.
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
So . . . you're arguing
that a candidate for “greatest cyclist of all time” couldn’t ride Cancellara or Boonen off his wheel in the finale of either of these two events?
Merckx did that to the Cancellaras and Boonens of his era.
?
who said Armstrong was the greatest of all time? not me. “one of the greats” is very different. De Vlaeminck was “one of the greats” too, he didn’t win any stage races…
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
ok . . . you bit on the terminology
but didn’t pick up the charge:
Are you seriously arguing that Armstrong couldn’t ride those guys off his wheel?
ah
yes ;)
Like I said above, though, the fact that several people here think differently than me make me think that I’m probably wrong. Still, I think his pre-cancer results (i.e. when he cared about one-day races) are telling (I wasn’t following cycling then so correct me if I’m wrong): all of his April results come in Ardennes week: won F-W, 2 2nds at LBL, 2 2nds at Amstel Gold.
Actually maybe all those 2nds is part of what has soured him on one-day races (well, that and his changed post-cancer body, of course), since chance plays less of a role over 3 weeks than 1 day.
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Only 1.
2001 Amstel. All the rest were before his ’99 Tour win.
He simply lost his desire to do well in single day races once he tasted victory in the Tour.
by The Team Chef on Jul 27, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
adding:
to some degree I think the question of whether Armstrong could ride those guys off his wheel (I read it in reverse the first time) is beside the point. The guys who win P-R or Flanders don’t usually win because they can ride guys off their wheels, they win because they’re strong enough to get to the front of the peloton at the beginning of the cobbled sections. Boonen probably couldn’t ride most of the guys in the peloton off his wheel. But he’s strong as all hell and he beats the shit out of anyone who tries to keep him off the front. Then, when he’s gotten the front group down to 2 or 3 or 5 or 7, he either wins in a sprint or waits for everyone else to fall down.
Case in point: Boonen probably couldn’t ride Ivanov off his wheel; if anything the reverse might be true. But I’m guessing Ivanov won’t be winning P-R or Flanders anytime soon.
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Lance can take a lot of punishment and not flinch
And he’s bulkier than he ever was (which stops the cobbles from bouncing him as badly) and he’s got the mountain bike / off road skills and mentality to take muddy cobbles or curbs in stride. I’d actually love to see him ride those races. A one day struggle against the course. All drama limited to the riding and the grit.
i wouldn't put money on him either
but would be really curious to see how he’d do. True that maybe that high cadence shit wouldn’t work so great on cobbles.
First thought:
Good point. He’d slip.
Second thought:
My best ever car in snow, ice, etc was a Geo metro. Tiny wheels, minimal power, so minimal torque and minimal slippage.
He must be doing something relevant to do Leadville so well.
geo metro... blast from the past... great little put-put
but, i liked my eagle summit 3-door in the snow better, higher clearance
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Lance is and clearly always has been a power guy too
He is tiny of height and has under oath declared that his weight was 74Kgs, that’s 10Kgs from being a pure climber.
Re: Coppi and Bobet
They had to duke it out with one of the all-time great classic studs of all-time , Rik Van Steenbergen. Coppi finished second to Rik in the epic ’52 PR. Stan Ockers was also around at that time, as was Raymond Impanis. Fiorenzo Magni was also present at PR back then (finished 3rd when Coppi won in ’50), and this is a guy who won Flanders three straight times!
That is the beauty of the Golden Era of Cyling. The competition was absolutely stacked, and I don’t think there has ever been a better collection of cyclists in the peloton at one time. ‘47 – late 50’s was pure magic. A fantastic book capturing all the glory of the times is Cycling’s Golden Age: The Horton Collection; this is one that should be in every fan’s library.
by The Team Chef on Jul 27, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
well put
thanks for the tip on that book too ;)
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
disagree about Contador
He handled the crappiest team situation since Lemond/Hinault and managed to seem like the grown-up in the situation. Armstrong and Bruyneel, by comparison, seem painfully akin to something out of Mean Girls.
In retrospect, I’ve sorta changed my opinion about what was wrong about dropping Kloden: once Contador knew that Kloden was dropped, he should have ridden like a Banshee to keep gaining time on Wiggins and everyone else behind him. Sure that means helping Andy, but oh well . . . at least Andy was there to help.
Having multiple leaders was a bad idea for Bruyneel because it confused his strategy.
Disagree about Bruyneel
Contador was a lock barring an accident or something. Astana had a realistic chance to sweep the podium which I think was a goal from the beginning (best revenge and statement they could have made for being excluded last year). Levi getting injured hurt those chances, and the Shlecks probably would have still spoiled that party anyway.
Bruyneel
is getting knocked up a bit too much. Believe me, I get it. The “We Might as Well Win” book is egotistic crap.
But then again, when you’re sure Contador will win barring accident, why not try to go for an unprecedented 1-2-3? To do that you need serious ego management skills, which is where he ffailed. And so Contador sabotaged the plan.
But I didn’t think his comments were untoward given that you have a rider who disobeyed orders twice and will clearly be riding for another team.
by Mr 60 Percent on Jul 26, 2009 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
"... 1-2-3? To do that you need serious ego management skills, which is where he failed."
That’s a good point, and it seems likely to be true.
I don't see that as refuting my point
so much as making it another way:
Bruyneel compromised his usual strategy in a play for something bigger.
I was trying to say
that I didn’t think it was a bad idea having multiple leaders. The goal was always to win, and why not be greedy if you have the riders to potentially sweep.
I guess I see it as a lot of screwing around to "make a statement."
And…what statement? They were hardly excluded for having a weak team, after all. So it’s basically about using the worlds highest profile bike race to play “gotcha,” even if it made the race less exciting, less accessible, and full of the wrong sort of drama. By which I mean, “the kind of drama that has you calling the cops on the couple upstairs at 2 AM.”
How to be original at this point?
UP
The dope testers: The fact that Wiggins finished 4th says a lot. The fear of God definitely was out there. After Contador, the Spanish barely registered in the top-30. I think Astarloza and LuLu were the only other riders present. Just 2-3 years ago, half the top-30 was Spanish. Progress.
The French: A lot of the youngins showed something — Feillu most obviously but severl others. Frenchmen in their prime were also excellent. Two stage wins for BBox, plus 10th and 12th on GC for FdJ?!? Maybe they don’t have a contender in waiting but the sheer number of French guys who can compete on the climbs and animate the race is getting back to pre-Festina levels, which means a lot to the sport. And props to Stephane Goubert, one of two guys in the race older than I am.
Hincapie: Crucial to Cav’s wins on stages 3 and 19….and still a team-best 19th on GC. After seeing him so dejected in Roubaix again, it’s good to see this. I could care less about Garmingate.
Franco Pellizotti: I’m going to take a flyer and say he’s clean. Love his riding style and results.
Armstrong: Say what you will about him, the vulnerable and still menacing version of Armstrong is much more fun. And major props for stealing third while remaining team-tactically correct.
Mikel Astarloza: He finally actually won something. After Contador, the only remaining Spanish GC rider. He came up with AG2R, not with Manolo or Fuentes, which makes me think he’s cleaner.
Versus road coverage: Sure, the pro-Lance, anti-Alberto homerism in the studio is horrible, but the traditionally bad road coverage is getting better. I especially liked the camera on Bruyneel on Petit Bernard when he told Contador and Kloden in English and Spanish, “Lance is entering solo. Lance esta entrando solo.”
Honorable Mentions: Vicenzo Nibali, Sergei Ivanov, and the criminally underrated Nicki Sorensen.
Down
Cadel: I used to be sympathetic but he’s just a bad leader. Remember when Armstrong waited for Heras (and VDV) when they crashed in the TTT? Dropping VDB after a crash and not waiting, and then sprinting ahead of his teammates to the line in the TTT? Defining moments there.
Columbia: The Cav show is as boring as it is impressive. Bottom line: If Garmin can figure out how to get Wiggo in 4th and VDV in 8th, then a big budget team with at least two full rosters of Tour-worthy riders should be able to compete on GC and/or win stages in the mountains.
Contador: Greatness on a bicycle. But I’m not convinced in his other attributes. Still passive aggressive as ever toward teammates with real skill, never really praises teammates. At some point soon, he might get what he wants: a team full of guys like Sergio Paulinho and Benjamin Noval, with someone like his former HGH and IGF-prescriber Manolo Saiz as DS. Hope he’s clean but the over-the-top TT dominance doesn’t assuage doubts. And as an aside, shouldn’t a citizen of the EU with several years in the peloton be able to speak English by now?
you had me until “be able to speak English now” – wtf for? and how does this relate to anything?
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2009 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok, it's over the top.
The broader point is that being a team leader in the sport requires being able to reach out and communicate, and I don’t see that he tries on that level.
I always docked Armstrong in his prime for the same thing.
It’s a double standard but like all the great champions, Contador is going to be judged, harshly but realistically, for being able to be an ambassador for the sport. At the moment, he’s still essentially just Manolo’s kid. One ass-kicking kid, but still.
by Mr 60 Percent on Jul 27, 2009 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions
ah
yeah fair enough. apologies for “wtf,” sounds a bit shrill
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2009 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions
People who come from border areas or small countries
tend to speak more languages. Spain’s a peninsula, and Madrid’s dead center. Besides, we don’t know that he doesn’t speak portuguese (or whatever else), do we? I hope it’s not a news flash that someone can be bi- or tri-lingual or quadrilingual, and still not speak English.
if by "road coverage" you mean cameras in the team cars and whatnot... i absolutely abhor that...
all i want is good quality video and decent commentary… none of the extraneous crap, which seriously cuts into race coverage….
the first 10 stages of versus broadcast coverage ended up being a total of 19 hours (give or take a few minutes), as opposed to the aso stream of 40 hours 16 mins
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Really? You dislike that
I really think it ads insight mostly. Of course you don’t want it at key moments and I don’t know how much of it you get in the US. The perfect solution would be to get that in a seperate channel of course.
see the math above.
even on the days when versus broadcast tdf coverage started the same time the aso feed did, the first 20+ mins were “pre-race” and then the rest of the subtraction was due to commercials, rider/team profiles, in the car, etc. etc. for example, stage 1: the aso stream (versus online) 3:32:51; versus broadcast of just race coverage (which didn’t even start until 31 mins into the broadcast), 2:22. Stage 3: 3:49:44 as opposed to 2:06.
i know that some people like it, i don’t.
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
but it was also crap coverage in the car. PR and fluff.
If it were more substantive—tactics direct from the DS’s mouth—and if the commentary were insightful and got the history right, I might feel differently.
No real changes for me
Just more impressed with Thor than ever before. And a lot less impressed with every other sprinter out there too afraid to even get beat by Cav. So even more props to Thor and Tyler.
Wiggins, very cool to see a guy surprise everyone for a GC bid.
More suspicious of Contador.
Can’t wait to see Vaughters in Greenville for the US Pro championships, know he’s gonna get a nice welcoming back.
PdC, up and down, still way too much obsession with slamming anything that has Lance’s name connected to it.
Did it ever occur to you that LA has actually, honestly, pissed a lot of people off?
I mean this because there are times when it seems as if you just think that no fair minded person who’s not basically ‘obsessed’ or ‘irrational’ in some way could have problems with his attitude, behavior, or statements. I and the other regular posters here do a pretty good job of not criticizing other posters for honestly holding and honestly expressing their favorable opinions of Lance or or unfavorable opinions of other riders I like. We may disagree, but as a rule we don’t act as if they’re doing something bad for feeling as they do.
You, even as you get all self-righteous about how unfair we are to Lance, have put up four or five posts in the past couple of days that imply seem to be taking exactly that line. I don’t know how others feel but I, personally, would appreciate it if you’d lay off suggesting that we’re so very irrational here. It’s unjustified and offensive.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
No, it's not unjustified.
And I’m sorry if you mind that I point that out from time to time, but I don’t need to be told to “lay off” because you find it offensive. I find what many of you say about riders to be unnecessary and offensive but I don’t jump all over the threads telling everyone to STFU.
I’ve also noticed that many of the hater-tot eating crowd have paid a great deal of respect to Lance for his performance even if it almost killed them to admit it. I’ve also stayed away from the Live Threads and the newbies and passers-by because it’s more unbearable than VS.
“all self-righteous” huh, I’ll leave that one for the staff.
I think a lot of us were thrilled by his riding. And not shy to say it.
However, I didn’t like JB playing puppetmaster on his behalf, and I didn’t like Lance trash talking and creating controversy where no legitimate controversy should have existed, and siccing his most ardent fans on some great teams and riders.
Yes, controversy creates a higher profile for cycling—but in a world wrestling federation grudge match sort of way. If I wanted to see guys in costume call each other out and roar and throw their weight around, I can tune in to VS the other 11 months of the year. If that’s what cycling looked like, and if that’s what cyclists and DS’s acted like most of the time, I wouldn’t watch cycling.
It took Cav—one of the more driven, not-so-mature members of the peloton—about 24 hours to get over his negativity crisis. Lance? It’s one small negativity crisis after another, each time reality dares to diverge from the way he pictured / planned it. I don’t think he does it on purpose. I think it must be rough being Lance. And I see how his control freak aspect is part of what makes him so successful—he’s thinking 24/7, even in his sleep. But he makes me antsy.
It’s possible you don’t lump this statement in with “hating.” Maybe you’re willing to concede that it is rational (in the strict sense that it contains reasoning, rather than mere emotion). But I can’t guess that from the way you toss “haters” around.
well put
and this:
I think it must be rough being Lance. And I see how his control freak aspect is part of what makes him so successful—he’s thinking 24/7, even in his sleep. But he makes me antsy.
when i read “It’s Not About the Bike” i felt really sad and thought i sure would not want to live in that guy’s head, regardless of being a successful multi-millionaire cyclist.
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
When I said that it 'killed' many to admit it, that was meant in the lightest form of the expression.
I was pleasantly surpised to see as much respect paid to him for his performance. I should have included that observation as well. I did say there were ups and downs to PdC during the tour, and as always it’s mostly ups.
As far as what I think is rational or irrational, I said nothing about that. And there was certainly no name calling of the personal or generalized variety, as claimed. I used the term obsession, which Ed turned into irrational, which you in turn accepted as what I said. Maybe I need to look at the definitions again, but i don’t think they are interchangeable.
Just to be clear, because possibly this is where our misunderstandings stem from...
…I take obsessed to imply irrational, very clearly. It’s often a term used for a pathology, and even where it’s not it is wholly incompatible with reasonable or ‘in control’ behavior and thinking.
I took that to be so evident that I focused in on that very implication, since that was what upset me and made me feel, along with that ‘hater’ language, that you were implying that some considerable portion of the criticism of LA was ‘irrational.’ If you didn’t intend it that way, fair enough, but I’d submit that the word does carry that meaning and that maybe, as JFS also said, the loose way you toss around the ‘hater’ language makes it awfully easy to feel that, as a critic of Lance, one is the target of your complaints.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
I'm totally in control of my obsessions.
Cycling being one of my more recent ones. Previously it was dance, it wasn’t just my job, it was really an obsession, not to be confused with OCD or any other disorder. I have always had something in my life that I put myself into wholly to see how good I can be or how far I can push something. If any of the regulars here want to contend that they are not in some way obsessed (preoccupied, haunted, desirous of) with cycling, make your case.
Obsession is the original official term for OCD, and it's part of what OCD stands for.
Language is funny that way. We say “starving” or “famished” when in fact we are not in a famine or in the process of dying from lack of food (the original proper meaning). We say “obsession” to mean “something we love to do, and think about a lot,” not something that rules our lives, and we can’t control (the original proper meaning).
It’s human nature to generalize from the extreme, and it’s well within standard English language to apply the term either way. However, when one of the usages does have to do with insanity / irrationality, it is easy for someone to read it that way. Does that mean you can’t use the word? Nah. But be aware that it carries baggage.
I'm not going to get involved in flinging accusations back and forth with you.
If you refuse to recognize that your persistent practice of criticism by name calling, in general but nevertheless directed at ‘the posters here’ is inflammatory, and think that objecting to me in turn somehow changes that, then no further discussion from my end will change that.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
Sminer consistently demonstrates his good will,
a nuanced appreciation for a range of riders, and also an unfortunate tendency towards more-inflamatory-than-necessary linguistic formulae.
Sminer, for a smart guy, you’re kinda deaf to the effects of your adjectives and adverbs. You can insult someone—or a class of people—by mis-stating or overstating their attributes, or using fuzzy boundaries in classifying people. I, for one, accept that this is not ill-will on your part. Linguistically, you’re a bit porcupinish. But porcupines don’t have bad intentions or bad attitudes. Just prickles.
Ed, you’re also being rather willing to pick up the shoe by the side of the road and see if it fits. If you don’t want to wear it, opt out, soonest.
I was amazed and touched that Sminer admits to some agonies over whether Lance was totally clean or not, and I know he’s not the type to just say, “doping, eh.”
There HAVE been random outbursts from new / passing / unknown / seasonal posters (or the notorious Backhoe, which is my pet name for BillDozer). some rabidly and seemingly thoughtlessly pro-lance, some rabidly and seemingly thoughtlessly anti-lance. I have an “embarrassed for them” reaction towards both sides, actually, but I can see that it one is, on balance, quite fond of Lance or quite over Lance, the ones from the “other side” seem much more heinous.
You may have noticed that I've stopped responding to you...
…despite the fact that you seem to reflexively object to almost everything I say.
Expect it to continue.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
not all LOLs are snark
someone can chuckle at your bias or blind spots—yes you have one, because humans don’t come equipped without them—and not actually be mocking you.
Unjustified and Offensive ?
I re-read the comments above a few times and I don’t read much of that above.
However, words like “self-righteous, unjustified and offensive” appear to be the more extreme comments I see in the stream. If you get a chance re-read both posts and see which one comes across more self-righteous.
I belive his point is that calling people irrational is offensive
and that you can’t call someone irrational just because you a) do not agree with their reasoning or b) are not privy to all of their reasoning.
I don’t think anyone likes having their considered position treated as if it were the reflexive response of someone who is too obsessive to engage in reasoning. Mind you, I also don’t think that’s what Sminer was attempting to say, nor was he calling out Ed K. So maybe they can both step back a bit, and figure out how to play it differently.
Yep, I got the point.
I re-re-read the posts again and only one sounds self righteous and a bit over the top and it wasn’t sminer’s. ( the pot calling the kettle black …. )
I know this the post stream is dead and I'm basically talk'n to myself but ...
if you take a tour through the Podium Cafe you see massive amounts of derisive comments against Lance Armstrong, complete with insults and four letter words.
Its not subtle and you can’t miss it. Its everywhere. Anyone that doesn’t think there are a great deal of Lance Haters whose opinions are not just colored by their topic/target but emotionally over-the-top on the subject is refusing to see the mountain before them.
By my count the anti Lance vote is maybe 20 to 1 at least. So it seems like those of us that try to present the Lance case from the non-evil perspective are actually the oppressed class in the cycling blog world.
Saxo Bank
They’re my faves anyway, but when they were two good men and big hearts down, they still did the job.
Impressed that Cavendish and Sastre were both prepared to apologise for outbursts.
Voeckler finally won me a little because of his wonderment at his win. It also stopped all those annoying little forays.
AG2R felt like the most improved team and defended the yellow valiantly.
The Sorensens deserve a lot of credit
Nicki in particular has been a great unknown domestique and secondary climber for a long time. And with more results than you would expect. Great to see him bag a stage and the rev up the engine in the Alps and on the Ventoux.
by Mr 60 Percent on Jul 26, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah me too.
and re: outbursts, yeah you make an interesting point, to be honest I’m surprised there aren’t more outbursts, I mean these guys are in permanent states of exhaustion and calorie deficit.
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions
+1
That’s why I don’t make much of the Hincapie deal. He’d been told all day long that Astana is on the front when all they were really doing was having Rast and Muravyev gradually lose time. But if you’ve lost the yellow jersey by five seconds, well…
by Mr 60 Percent on Jul 27, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions
So
The guys I really wanted to see do well coming into the race: Thor, GHH and Sparticus all really did well.
Wiggins surprised me, I’ve become a fan.
I’m torn between- accepting that, for the next several years, Contador will win any GT he wants- and thinking that his bubble is about to be burst, a la the little killer.
The Tour: They could do a one stage mountain TT and that’s going to tell you who the winner will be. The last week was fun to watch, but the suspense for overall was gone on Stage 9. That said, the Green Jersey comp was great.
Phil and Paul made me sad. I think they’ve lost their perspective on the sport.
PdC: After the first couple days, I thought I was going to have to take the month off, but you all kept it going and made the race better for me. Thanks.
"I had a cameraman filming me on the back of a bike, I rode up to him and
said: 'hey, this is a pretty shitty situation, why don't you just leave me alone with my misery? I was close to punching him off his bike … but I didn't, of course."" Jens!
ammendment
just read this on CN
But what of his refusal to kiss the black girl at the podium presentation on Sunday? Was she not attractive enough, or are there racist undertones towards this gesture? For the record, it is not the first time Pellizotti has balked at doing so.
if there is any validity to this, then fuck him.
"I had a cameraman filming me on the back of a bike, I rode up to him and
said: 'hey, this is a pretty shitty situation, why don't you just leave me alone with my misery? I was close to punching him off his bike … but I didn't, of course."" Jens!
CN
accuses Franco Pellizotti of being racist for not kissing one of the girls (who was slightly darker skinned) on the podium during the polka dot ceremony. Just because he didn’t kiss her makes him racist? Perhaps he forgot? If you watch the video, you’ll see that he’s looking the other way when she wanted to kiss him. He’s got his hands full with stuff and is looking at cameras. If he really were racist, why would he kiss the dark black girl who gave him a trophy later in the ceremony when all the jersey winners were standing on the podium? He reached out to kiss her even though at that stage this was not necessary.
I did see her expecting the kiss,
and also making very big eyes at him before it was time for the kiss, and sort of cuddling in close. But I also saw a kid with him, and his wife looking kinda intense about it (assuming that’s who the camera was picking out in the crowd). Maybe he’s a smart guy who knows which women will make his wife most jealous, and he doesn’t go there.
I’m not excusing racism if that’s what it was, but… it’s not the first answer that came to my mind.
When I first read this I thought “come on, that’s a lot of speculation.” Then I read it again and noticed the “it’s not the first time” bit. CN doesn’t really say more…kind of wish they would, that’s a pretty inflammatory statement, you’d think they’d back it up.
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
whoa
the racist stuff has now been deleted from the story – har
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
+1
on your feelings about Phil and Paul – same here
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
and
while we are amending and addending, the thrill of the GC comp was gone early for me too, though i got a kick out of Nocentini and AG2R’s unexpected performance. the green jersey comp seemed more exciting overall, especially the day that Thor took off!
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
Great thread
Thoughts?
Up:
1. The crowds! I have no data and someone will probably tell me I am wrong, but they seemed huge and bigger than in recent years. And I don’t just mean the big climbs. Even on flatter days, in the middle of nowhere, it seemed every village had their own little “Tour party.” Such a great tradition.
2. PdC – Through challenging times, the collegial “culture” thrived
3. Contador/Wiggins/Pelizzoti/Thor
4. The combativity podium girl on the right!
Not sure:
1. LA. Every time I watched him, involuntarily a part of me wanted to see him fly. I enjoy seeing him ride, and KUDOs for a podium after a 3 year break. But I thought he and JB were completely classless at times.
2. Cav: another love / hate. Wow he is brilliant. But I love the Nike poster with tape over his mouth.
Down:
1. The course design: Trying to “engineer” an epic stage was risky and ultimately failed. The Pyrenees deserved better than just being passed through. An mountain top TT there next year please.
2. A quiet Down: Carlos/Denis/Cadel/Linus. WTF.
3. Anyone who loves a rider solely for their nationality
4. My VDS team . Lazy bums one and all
sometimes life is a false flat
Engineering a course
Agree this was indeed a mistake. I know a lot of thought goes into the course every year but this just looked like they were trying to make a script that the race should unfold according to. That is never a going to work in cycling. We always say it doesn’t really matter what the parcours of the Tour looks like, it’s how the riders use it that makes it hard. ASO should respect that and not overthink the course.
by Jens on Jul 27, 2009 3:48 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i don't blame them too much.
Anyway it was a good idea. They gave it a try and it failed. You try new things, they don’t always work out. I agree though it’s a shame about the pyrenees this year. And yeah, they probably really don’t need to overthink it – happens all the time though, give someone a job and they often want to do something special with it. I was in another room while they were talking about it, but pretty sure i heard them say that the pyrenees will be emphasized next year. Lot of stages there. Assuredly some good ones.
racers make the race
as do the conditions.
Ventoux fizzled for two reasons: the gc battle was over (except for Wiggins’s absolute heroism to hang on to fourth) and the wind.
Both of these two factors were predictable.
Exactly
That made the ASO efforts to put a dampener on the timegaps earlier in the race even more futile and in the end negative for the overall experience of the race.
I agree with you yeeho that it’s absolutely a positive that they are willing to try new things, and for that reason I won’t be too bitchy about the course.
no she was the left (from fan perspective)
BUT no complaints from me ! ;)
sometimes life is a false flat
Every time I see that kid I think
he was kicking and screaming saying “NO! I’M WEARING THESE PANTS, I LIKE THESE PANTS” as him mom is trying to struggle him into something that might go with that jersey.
Pedaling as fast as I can
"But Daddy's shorts don't go with HIS jersey!"
Throughout the stage all I kept on thinking was: ‘don’t finish second, you can’t finish second again’.--Heinrich Haussler
True, daddy's shorts don't go with his jersey
Pardon me for being a bit fashion conscious. ;-) Still and all, you could dress the kid right. At least the kid, you have some control over.
Speaking of fashion, isn’t that an unfortunate wrinkle in Pelloziotti’s shorts? That little…uh…hangy down thing …
Dude!
The world is a mess and I just need to rule it.
UP:
Michael Rasmussen. I don’t know how he did it, but to get the Danish national anthem playing… well Chapeau!
A Tale of solitude
http://www.diariosur.es/20090727/deportes/ciclismo/fiesta-privada-contador-20090727.html
It happened on Thursday, a few hours before the Annecy ITT. Contador came downstairs to the entrance of the Palace of Menthon, the luxurious Astana hotel. The Tour was on. He looked right, then left. Nobody, nothing. No Astana cars or helpers. Cold sweat. Quick time check. Where are they? The hotel is several kilometers from the start. There he was, the leader of the Tour, in flip-flops, bag in hand and alone. He went to the hall looking for an answer: Armstrong had ordered the helpers to go pick up his wife, kids and friends to the airport.
Contador left his room last because he was the last one starting the ITT. Armstrong had managed to take away his means of transportation. The straw that broke the camel’s back. Hot flashes, he was rabid. He called his brother Fran. He came to pick him up by car and took him to Annecy in a private vehicle. He left last and finished first. His best victory. In the ITT. In solitude. The same way he has won his second tour.
Contador’s toughest climb was not recorded in images. It was narrated by others. It was fought in the hotel and the bus: during one stage, Armstrong sat his guests at the very back of the bus, right in Contador’s usual seat. One more provocation. Armstrong to the luxury suite. Contador to sleep with Paulinho, the only ally. Same deal during the entire tour. Mouth shut, listening to Armstrong’s jabs: “It doesn’t take a Nobel prize to figure out what happens with side winds”. Contador didn’t reply in the hotel. He did on the road. He attacked in the first mountain finish in Arcalis. Without permission from Bruyneel, Armstrong’s DS. That night the Astana hotel was a funeral. Red eyes from the Texan (anger? crying? not sure). The first cyclist that stood up to him. And he did it in silence."
Not in the article – apparently LA did not attend the team dinner in Paris to celebrate Contadors victory.
by lucybears on Jul 27, 2009 5:04 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Yes. Yes it does.
It’s the endless puzzle. This bitch-queen stuff is so beneath Lance—Lance the amazing rider, superb tactician, smart guy. So why does he do it so egregiously? (And I’m discounting the “you had to be there to know if it was rude” stuff about crosswinds, and the string-yanking bit about red eyes.) But no car for Alberto? that’s a serious WTF. Heck, no car for a minor rider would still be a WTF.
that is way beyong being competitive...
err, I’m not saying any more really, coz anything I said would not be pretty.
This bitch-queen stuff
is an integral part of his make up, as the Simeoni episode dem0nstrated 5 years ago
Lance Armstrong, showing all the diplomatic skills of a playground bully, stamped his authority on one of the rebels of the peloton, Filippo Simeoni, yesterday.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2004/jul/24/tourdefrance2004.tourdefrance1
+1
i can only agree. and great post above, too.
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
+2
and I agree with rbjhan that this should go in a separate post. I was pretty ambivalent about LA before, but the Annecy incident really goes beyond the pale. Straw that broke the camel’s back for me.
I hope AC smokes LA in the Tour next year and waves a banana in his face while doing it.
But he can't afford a few bahavioral psych sessions?
Or he likes this about himself, even in his quiet, down time moments?
It just seems so counterproductive.
i think it's about
core identity and adaptation from reading one of his books. when that gets locked in at an early stage in life, it’s pretty much there for good – to ask someone to change it threatens them at the core, and everything they fundamentally belief about how to get on in this world is called into question. it’s the threat of psychological annihilation. he could learn to manage it differently, which some of us would prefer, but he’s parlayed it into fame and fortune. i still would not want to be inside that guy’s head – i’d guess there is one angry swarm of bees swirling around in there and they’ve been there for a long time.
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
"The first cyclist to stand up to him. And he did it in silence."
Contador. Hero.
If Jens! Voigt was a planet, he' be the "World of Hurt"
to be fair
if you read his interviews carefully, he gets his own ‘jabs’ in, albeit more subtley
“Lance y yo iremos cada uno por su lado en 2010”
today @
http://www.as.com/ciclismo/articulo/tour-ciclismo-lance-iremos-lado/dasclm/20090727dasdaicic_2/Tes
= “I’ll never ride with that arrogant b*st*rd again”
“Necesito unas vacaciones y desconectar completamente de la bicicleta. No voy a ir a la Clásica de San Sebastián.”
“I need a holiday and completely off the bike. I will not go to San Sebastian Classic.”
= “JB & that arrogant b*st*rd can p*ss off”
“Andy Schleck, por ejemplo, ha sido un rival digno.*
" Andy Schleck, for example, has been a worthy rival."
= which is more than I can say about LA
his interviews can be found here
http://interview.cyclingfever.com/index.html?_p=rider&id=137&country=6
see also
“Armstrong es un ídolo roto para toda la familia Contador”
“Armstrong is a broken idol for the whole family Contador”
http://www.as.com/ciclismo/articulo/tour-ciclismo-armstrong-idolo-roto/dasclm/20090727dasdaicic_8/Tes
point taken
but given all the crap he’s had to endure, I can hardly blame him. If it was me, I’d have gone postal
I'll add that subtlety here...
…also involves dignity. Given the extent and nature of the provocation, if these are the most direct and contentious responses, the guy is a model of control and self-restraint.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
Or he grew up sucking on the teat of truly advanced snark?
Or it’s a Madrid thing? I think of Madrilenos as self consciously urbane and a bit aloof. But I’m not sure if that’s a real stereotype, or just the way I felt about visiting there.
I read the previous post as what ocurred before the end of the tour.
And apparently Contador, for the most part, held his tongue until after the tour. I love the story where the good guy stands up to the evil guy and is victorious without stooping to the evil guy’s level. Common men (I am one) need these stories to maintain our faith that there is justice in the world. Or will it just be good Karma for Alberto.
Thanks for all the great information you post here, not just today but every day.
If Jens! Voigt was a planet, he' be the "World of Hurt"
I guess that proves
that the Armstrong/Bert polemico wasn’t just some scripted high drama to boost ratings.
What does this tell me about Armstrong? Absolutely nothing new. Great cyclist, but a complete jerkwad.
by The Team Chef on Jul 27, 2009 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions
agreed
I was a strong proponent of the scripted darma interpretation. Add one to the Hons was wrong column.
"Never swing a small stick. " Andy Hampsten
Is that you adding yourself to the "was wrong" list?
or are you saying I was wrong another time? And no, the “Sastre is going to win the tour” post doesn’t count.
"It looks like talking, but it’s just words that comes out"
~ Andy Schleck
That's just really sad
I was planning on going to the Leadville 100 here in August, but now this kind of is the last straw for me, if I’d go it would be to root for the other guys and not LA, and if I boo him I’ll probably get mobbed. But. if JB is there I may just jump his fucking ass(not really but I’ll be imagining it for a long time). But I definitely need to get myself a Bert shirt and wear it proudly.
Vamos Alberto!!!(Contador not Ricco)
And can I suggest a giant inflatable banana?
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
What's also sad
is that probably outside of our happy little group here, who else is going to be aware of Armstrong’s behavior, so well illustrated in the article. Why does this stuff never make into the mainstream media. Does Lance carry such a big bat that people, especially media types, are afraid to speak the truth?
Sign me up for the Bert fan club, as well.
by The Team Chef on Jul 27, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
You need a flag with this on it
a big flag. Then you won’t get mobbed…but those in the know will understand.
"Never swing a small stick. " Andy Hampsten
Oh my word.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
what a sorry, sorry little man armstrong is
and bruyneel ain’t much better…..
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
hee (fun mental image)
bert wandering the empty hotel and lance watching him remotely a la Mr Burns with fingers steepled. (admittedly evil but oh so amusing)
Bah... Garmin.
I find that story pretty hard to believe
The leader of the Tour being left by his team is a major story that others would be reporting.
And if the story turns out to be true...?
by The Team Chef on Jul 28, 2009 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions
eh, it will be spun as what it may have been--
They were going to let him sweat, but show up in plenty of time to get him there. Or miscommunication.
I'll guess
that it will be something to the effect that they already thought he had caught a ride to the start, and was no longer at the hotel. Simple mistake, right?
by The Team Chef on Jul 28, 2009 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions
judging by the way
how quickly LA and his worshipers responded to Bert saying their relationship is zero.
the fact that none of them said anything about this “incident”, makes me think it’s….could it be possible?!….true.
For me, it breaksdown like this:
Up:
Astarloza: strong as hell all day, executed a perfectly timed attack a strong breakaway group just as they got caught and soloed home for the win, only one in the picture. Awesome.
Voeckler: see Astarloza. Tommy V has been a favorite of mine since ’04. Nice to see him finally take the big win.
Wiggins: who knew? Nobody it seems. If this wasn’t a one off performance, call me a fan for life. Either way, real panache.
Cervelo: while Sastre didn’t perform, Thor and Heinrich Hausler doing the business was awesome. A solo stage win for HH and a solo escape for Thor in the Alps was seriously my favorite part of this Tour.
Bweeg/Euskatel: Modest teams by most standards, they made the most of what they had.
AG2R: defended the yellow properly. Something that they can always be proud of.
Same:
Schlecks: always talented, nothing new.
Contador: see Schlecks above
Cav: see Schlecks and Contador above. Not much to like, not much to hate, just there.
Down:
Silence: not just because of Cadel, but mostly because of their shit team. Seriously, Cadel can’t blamed for this.
Rabo: only redeeming thing from them was Garate’s awesome win on Ventoux. Menchov can be excused for only winning the Giro and two stages, now the rest of the team needs to produce.
Astana: awesome athletes, shitty team.
If I just had one more gear, I...
i think your post
comes closest to mirroring my ups, stay, and downs. you’ve saved me some writing, too :)
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
I'm too lazy to look, but since you focus on the good stuff from the French teams...
…has anyone mentioned Argitubel? It’s really sad that this team isn’t going to be around next year. Really sad.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
yeah, um, thanks or something
for historical accuracy, probably good that we don’t have an edit function…this is much more classy…just like a record book ; )
I'll just pick out one name that has only been mentioned once above - Renshaw.
Renshaw.
Seriously, this guy sets up Cavendish like no body’s business.
Look at the last stage for example. The way that he drove into the final bend, with Cavendish tucked on his wheel and basically forced Dean and Farrar to hesitate, that’s what set up the win for Cavendish.
In fact if you look at the over head, that’s the point at which the stage was won. No one was coming back from that.
And that is just one example of several in this race where his lead out has been exceptional. Be it needing him to go from way too far out, and hold it; or for him to find a way through small gaps; or to simply blast off the front so that Cavendish already has a lead when he lights it up; Renshaw did it all.
Awesome work.
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
Truly awesome
Is there a chemistry factor in play here?
I can’t remember Renshaw being so outstanding when he had Thor on his wheel. What I can remember is Julian Dean giving Thor exceptional leadouts, but now that he has Farrar on his wheel they seem to misfire as often as they get it right.
interesting point, maybe it’s not just Renshaw but the whole train, i.e. maybe he depends on Hincapie to set him up as much as Cavendish depends on him
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Cavendish has repeatedly
stated that he trusts Renshaw’s lines implicitly—and that’s the key (and it goes for HIncapie as well, just earlier).
Before this year, it was really easy to knock Cavendish out of position. Go back and re-watch some sprint stages—it’s sort of a fun game to watch him get bounced around the peloton. No more.
Part of that derives from his growth as a rider; part of it comes from his absolute trust in his lead-out.
I would imagine
that the trust factor would be quite calming amidst the chaos of the sprint. the only thing Cav has to think about is, “go fast and get to line first”
Also, I think sprint styles play a part in the success of a leadout train – Cav has that quick jump, while Thor tends to build more into it. Makes sense that a leadout would need to be built around that ability.
yeah good point, that trust factor is huge.
I hadn’t noticed that about him being bounced around in sprints before this year, that’s interesting.
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Not a bad person to have in your corner
That’s for sure.
Anyone willing to bet against Cavendish getting the green next year??
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
Not a fair comparison
Zabel has done a great job with the Columbia train. They all ride with their elbows out and lean their entire weight on anyone that gets close to them. It is a skill which must have been taught by Zabel which is great to watch.
Farrar, for a young rider is great at maneuvering in the group though. He will also push his way into a line. I think that he is far better than his age would show.
If you look at sprint replays contentrate on Ciolek and then Farrar. Ciolek just has no ability of positioning himself. Farrar can, but I think that it is unfair to compare him to the riders on Columbia who train this type of thing. Body position, elbows and lean.
The sprints are generally over 500 meters before the line. Petacchi got Cav on stage 1 in the Giro by anticipating the sprint.
Fuck the tour was awful. Andy and Contador did not try on the last two mountain stages – there were 0 stages made for good one day riders. I hate Armstrong but feel sorry for him because he is a rider that does well on stages that require stamina – thus 0 this year. The sprints were the only parts where the best riders were giving full efforts. (And the TT – booooring.)
Farrar vs. Ciolek
It’s worth noting their respective ages—Farrar is 25, not that young for a sprinter. Think what Boonen was doing at age 24 & 25; what Cav has been doing since he was about 23.
Ciolek, though, is still only 22 (23 in September). Even Cav wasn’t dominant at his age, although he soon became so. I think Ciolek would have benefited from another year or two at Columbia honing his skills instead of becoming a co-captain at Milram at his age.
Throughout the stage all I kept on thinking was: ‘don’t finish second, you can’t finish second again’.--Heinrich Haussler
In fairness Tyler has had a rockier road
Road to the peloton is longer from the US. Plus Farrar lost a year on Cofidis with a cracked kneecap.
Yeah, good points.
It’ll be interesting to see where they both go with another couple of years’ experience. Farrar’s been looking really good lately.
Throughout the stage all I kept on thinking was: ‘don’t finish second, you can’t finish second again’.--Heinrich Haussler
renshaw did good for ale-jet
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
yeah him... oops
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
I don't want to overlook anyone in that train - it works so well.
Just look at Hincapie’s efforts yesterday too. He launched off a David Millar at full steam and deflated the whole Garmin approach by his sheer power alone.
Dean and Farrar then tried to recover it in that last corner, but to no avail.
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
WOW... great thread
Some extra great commentary here, so I’ll shorten my list (you’re welcome) to my main ones:
Stayed about the same:
Contador: I might as well start off with the best. We all knew he was the best coming in, and nothing changed to dispel those opinions. For me, his admirable handling of all of the childish drama moved him up in my book. I would have Bert in my “UP” category, if not for reasons not suited for this thread. So basically Kudos to Bert for a dominating win, but I expected it going into the Tour.
Bruyneel: OK, after my “childish dram” comment above, you might have thought I’d have JB in my “DOWN” category. His game-playing certainly got old, BUT in my humble opinion it was calculated and intentional, and kept the rivals off-guard. EVERYONE within Astana knew who the strongest rider was (LA would have been the only one with a shred of doubt, but that is just his mentality). Having rival teams have to spend time and energy running through additional scenarios regarding tactics served Astana’s overall goals. A DS is hired to win, and JB is as good at that as it gets… it doesn’t really matter if anyone likes him… just win. In that regard, he is very good. JB gets a big thumbs down from me for being honest in the post Verbier interview. Even though AC went against his wishes, JB should NOT have hung AC out to dry there and just kept his mouth shut and towed the company line with some BS. Maybe I should move him to the DOWN category just for that one thing, but I’ll leave him here because he got two riders onto the podium.
DOWN:
Versus. MY only entrance in this category. I hate putting them here, as at least they are giving us pretty thorough coverage. Also, at times the commentary is quite enjoyable and insightful. But for all the same “LA ass-kissing fest” reasons mentioned above, I’ll give Versus the old virtual rasberry here. They could have supported LA without being so transparent and gross about it.
UP:
Kenny: My favorite part of this year’s tour… I’ll just leave it at that.
Schlecks: What more can one say… Very courageous, forced the issues, family love and unity, showed incredible class… BRAVO!
CVV: My favorite rider. I had hoped he would find his conditioning and challenge for a podium spot. As it was, he showed improved form in the last week, and was a great teammate with some heroic and strong riding. His support riding made me like him even more, and proud that he is my favorite.
Armstrong: I know I’m likely to take some shit for this one, and I am torn, but I have my reasons, right or wrong. His overall performance exceeded many people’s expectations, so that alone could place him here. Riding-wise (not the off-the-bike crap) he was often the good team rider he said he’d be (but many of those times he really had no choice but to ride support). The bad would be the drama that is quite well detailed above, so I won’t repeat it. I shared a few brews with LA in 2007, but it was during a week-long party ride for fun. I had previously admired the guy for his racing, but deep-down felt like he was a prick. He wasn’t that way at all in a casual environment, and was quite genuine and a nice fellow. I mentioned this in the post-race thread, but I really do think he simply has such a killer mentality when it comes to competition that it is difficult for most of us to understand. The reason he comes across as an arrogant egotistical prick who plays mind games to give him self an additional edge is because ALL OF THAT IS TRUE. Once I accepted that the competitive side of Lance is an arrogant asshat, I’m OK with it even if I personally don’t like it. The best comparison I have is to Michael Jordan… the greatest basketball player ever, but NOT a friendly chap on the court… he always was a bit of an arrogant prick and definitely tried to intimidate and play mind games… also a brutal executioner when it it came to crunch time. MJ also gives me the impression of arrogance off the court sometimes. In the end, it isn’t easy being an MJ or a LA, but who is going to feel sorry for them for that?
by IowaAC on Jul 27, 2009 2:03 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
+1 -- love your summary on lance
he may not be a nice person but, yow, he’s some rider and strategist!
Bah... Garmin.
I just don't understand
How people are saying Lance has gone down due to them finding out he’s an ass. I mean, where have you been the last 18 years if you didn’t already know that.
My Personals
Up
Schlecks
Wiggo
Thor
Kloden
Nibali
Astraloza
Same
Most
Down
Boonen
Evans
Garmin
by whistlingmountain on Jul 27, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
hah
I’ve not been watching cycling, is where. I’d never heard a negative thing about him before I really starting digging in deeper on TdF stuff (so, last year). Talking to my (non-bike-geek) family, I get to hear how the coverage is coming across to the average casual watcher. And it’s wholly positive towards Lance, pretty much exactly as he’d want it, complete with “that Spanish guy who backstabbed his team” and “that other American team who screwed that one guy on Lance’s team” (meaning Hincapie). My parents half-watched several stages and still don’t know the name of any rider other than Lance.
There is a good reason he handles the press the way he does—it works. I hadn’t had a chance to see that before, and it’s a massive down rating for me. It was ugly and ruined a lot of the race for me.
/deep newbie thoughts
keeps a lot of people stuck in the "casual" zone
Which strategically, is good for Livestrong. Otherwise, Lance would be the “entry drug” for a lot more people, but then lose them to fandom for other riders.
Wow, that just may do it for me too, what a sell out.
Oh no wait, that’s a Chantal, I like some of their stuff.
I'll bite
Down: Media coverage of cycling. I found myself getting more annoyed by the coverage this year than ever before. Thank the goddess for Cosmo & PdC and Steephill and a few other outlets for useful information. I feel like there was a producer talking into all of the VS. folks saying “that was good, but make it CATTIER!”
Down: Johan Bruyneel. I can’t say I was a fan before, but I admired and respected his expertise. I can’t believe I actually bought the line that the USPS/Disco/Astana program was all about winning. Winning clearly took a backseat to personalities here. Every rider who has ever sacrificed his own goals for the team because of that ideology should rightfully be very pissed. If the team isn’t about being the best, why should anyone sacrifice his individual goals for the team good?
Up: Alberto Contador. I was never a fan. I’ve held his being Manolo Saiz’ top project against him. I could never see how Tio Manolo’s prized protege wouldn’t be on the preparation scheme with everyone else. That aside, AC kept his mouth shut and talked with his legs. I sure as hell wouldn’t be able to resist looking back on Ventoux and shouting out: “You like apples Lance? How the Fck do you like THESE apples?"* (ref: to Every Second Counts) and then sprinting away and leaving him broken and gasping. But Contador had more class then that. He won. Cleanly clearly and in every conceivable event. Lance never put time into him in an ITT or on a mountain stage. There was never any question as to who was the better rider. And still, as Lance and Johan maneuvered to steal the credit, limelight, and attention, all Alberto did was win. Winning is what LA and JB have claimed was important, but clearly they have other prioritites now.
UP: Mark Cavenish. He annoyed me. I’m sure he still will again in the future, but he’s got class underneath the brashness, and that is what turned Gilberto Simoni from a loudmouth into one of my all-time favorites. I can’t say I’m a Cavendish fan, but man do I respect him now.
UP: Garmin. They just delivered. There was a lot of talk about personality and motivations, but this team did an excellent job of taking care of business on the road. Some folks were disappointed that they didn’t put a sentimental storybook finish for a great american rider ahead of what’s best for their team, but if George wants to wear yellow, he can do it with his own legs, instead of hoping everyone takes the day off and just lets him have it. George does not go into the down list, because the man has earned respect the right way, but I can’t blame Garmin for racing. With Astana’s embarrassing personal politics and the cult-of-personality that surrounds Columbia, Garmin really shone as the team that focused on results and did the best job, as a team, of earning them.
Down: No one else. I can’t get down on Cadel or Sastre for having an off year. This is a sign of cleaner cycling. Without extra RBCs following you in a special motorcycle, the off day or bad tour is going to be a given. These guys have shown they are professionals and will be back to fight. I won’t throw any stones. I can’t really get down on Bennati, Boonen, or Friere either. OK, so I’m a total Boonen homer, but as much as I’d like to see more veterans contest the sprints, Tommeke was clearly off form and Benna and Oscar need more than they got from their teams. I doubt any of them would have been able to top Cav, but I’d like to have seen more than one cagey veteran contesting the sprints. In the past we’d see Hushovd, O’Grady, McEwen, Zabel, Cippolini or Petacchi all contesting the same sprint. We didn’t see that this time around, but I’m not going to blame the sprinters.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
glad you bit cuz
this post is tied with spunout’s (above) as best overall summary of my thoughts. i don’t have to do anything here – thanks!
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
"You like apples Lance? How the Fck do you like THESE apples?"
I thought that was referencing “Good Will Hunting”, I haven’t seen “Every Second Counts” though.
meta-reference
Lance quoted the movie to someone he thought disrespected him in one of his books. It might have been from It’s Not About the Bike.
It just illustrates how Lance’s modus operandi was to fuel his rage with imagined insults and then rub his victory in the face of the vanquished. THIS is why I like Alberto more after this year’s TdF. He had more class than to rub Lance’s inferiority in his face, the way Lance rubbed it in the face of everyone for years.
Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste
okay, i can't resist responding
there have been so many comments on the negative media coverage:
UP: the france 2 media coverage. Normally i’d give it a “same” because i’ve always found the television coverage of sporting events here to be splendid, but Laurent Fignon this year … well, you couldn’t but come away impressed. I’m a hater basically, but for all the LA lovers out there who believe that the french press hates LA, you’d have been impressed too. (actually in all my years of watching the tdf on french tv, going back to 2004, i’ve never seen the lance hate) My thoughts go out to L Fignon in his battle with cancer.
Great post!
And whilst I should really give this proper thought, two downs off the bat:
Phil Liggett & Paul Sherwen – whilst I was fine with the rest of ITV4’s coverage the blatant Lance adoration really, really got nauseating. Never have I been more glad for the fact that I actually have an alternative source for watching the Tour, namely Eurosport.
ASO – for making the person who posted the 7minutes of Fabian’s awesome downhill on Stage 7 take it down from YouTube.
For me
UP
Wiggins: for this http://www.juliandean.co.nz/diary.php – arsing around on the first big day in Alpes? Chapeau!
AG2R: Brown shorts – more divisive than Lance but I like – probably the second best kit after Skil and at least its not blue
Jens!: For telling the camera to bugger off and surviving that crash
Eurosport: For saving me from Phil and Paul
Kenny: a new cult hero
DOWN
Damien Hirst: why did you allow you allow your name to by associated with Lance’s fugly bike?
Up, down, and all around.
UP
AG2R: Neverminding the kit, they atoned for their lack of wins at this Tour based on their performance to retain the Maillot Jaune even though some claim Astana allowed them to keep it but I give them the benefit of the doubt.
COMEBACKS: No, not that comeback, all the other comebacks from illness and/or injury for the likes of Ballan, Farrar, Freire, Kirchen, O’Grady, Rogers, and Vande Velde; and of course the comebacks for those not invited last year due to politics: Contador, Leipheimer, and Wiggins.
EVANS: Probability was against him in the beginning, but he attacked anyway; and it helped that he was more pragmatic than brooding this year about his results.
FARRAR: Rewriting the words from the Rick Roll song, Tyler could sing “Never gonna give sprints up / They’re never gonna get me down” which is very sportsmanlike compared to riders brooding about how the world is against them.
GARMIN: I perceived them as classy since they were not overflowing with braggadoccio about their achievements which were admirable even if it did not result in wins but, like wine, quality trumps quantity.
GREIPEL: How often does he attend consolation races because of the sprinter always assigned to the A-Team?
JAPAN: I am hoping the success of Arashiro-sama and Beppu-sama inspire some new cycling Anime and Manga which would so feature clichéd romance between podium girl and upcoming champ.
PHOTOGRAPHERS: They seem to like wasting their film on Tony Spartacus so I must thank them.
POLKA DOTS: I hope that Jennizotti has broken the curse of the Maillot Measles but then again his curse may be for his hairline to recede…
SAXO BANK: I have too much fannish bias for them so I should abstain from elaborating other than emphasizing that Schlecklet performed better on his first Tour de France than Contador did so—so there!
SKIL-SHIMANO: ASO, do invite them again!
TEN DAM: His eyebrows scare me but many of his comments made “good copy” as advertisers would say.
VAN HUMMEL: His spirited tenacity endows him with Jens!-like qualities that has earned him many admirers including me.
IN EQUILIBRIUM
ARMSTRONG: Business remains first on his list of priorities; because of his promotional obligations there is no time for friendship, not even the appearance of it with Contador.
CAVENDISH: He amuses, he annoys—not unlike relatives you avoid visiting too often because of the attention they demand.
COLUMBIA: I “heart” many of their riders but their publicity machine often irritates me because it irritates me, especially when it may encourage this silly-nilly Columbia-Garmin rivalry.
LAMPRE: It was almost as if they were not there like Silence-Lotto was almost not at the Giro.
TRICOLORE MAGLIA: Will the UCI fashion polics fine Pozzato for having so many kit variations?
DOWN
ALL WHITE KITS: Still don’t like ‘em cause it’s like whitewashing everything makes ya pure.
BRUYNEEL: He seemed to be there only for his “cycling boo,” not for the anonymous eight Astanians in cycling purgatory amid all sorts of intrigue suited to novels and histories about the Medici.
CELEBRITY: With all these Hollywood people like Ben Stiller and Robin Williams visiting I was beginning to think I was watching “Love Boat” reruns.
GRAVITY: The statistics probably reveal that the Tour was average in the amount of falling riders but it seemsed that riders, whether crashing or not, were victimized, especially Jens! and Menchov.
HINAULT: Mister Badger is obsessed with lecturing the French that they need to attack when, aloha, the French were having successful breakaway attacks and had more in the Top Twenty then any other nationality.
HINCAPIE: He voice is whiny to begin with so when he whined in some interviews about teams being selfish it was rather disappointing because, hello, I can recall US Postal/Discovery being very selfish.
PHIL & PAUL: Their antics have amused me in the past but their fanatical monotheism that result in Lance-gasms insult cyling fans with diversified portfolios.
STAPLETON: Is it me or is he cycling vicariously through Cavendish, valuing him above all other riders? Whether or not the sponsorships encourage stage wins galore, his nonstop praise of this “special rider” is grating.
VERSUS: Next year, please feature more diversified commercials that do not list side effects that can cause prudish people to lose their appetites.
YETI: I am suspicious of whoever is inside that costume.
Mon coeur appartient aux les forçats de la route.
Alphabetized Awesomeness
GARMIN: quality trumps quantity: True sportsmen and real gents.
HINCAPIE: whined in some interviews about teams being selfish: Unreasonable sense of entitlement there for sure.
JAPAN: cycling Anime and Manga : If you can copyright that idea. Hurry!
YETI: costume: ? Yeti lives. Found in mountainous areas frquented by tourbeccos and skinny wheelmen.
Whenever I've seen Stapleton he's been congratulating his whole team
I suspect he gets heavily edited to cut all the non-Cav stuff out.
Did the Yeti costume from the Giro reappear? or have those little yetis that get given out on the podium started moving in otherwise unexplicable ways?
LA twitter
hey pistolero, there is no “i” in “team”. what did i say in March? Lots to learn. Restated.
Seeing these comments from AC. If I were him I’d drop this drivel and start thanking his team. w/o them, he doesn’t win.
http://twitter.com/lancearmstronG
(er, w/o them, he DID win)
and
worth a read (but it is long – has Links to Parts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, CyL, Disingenuous, Lance Cries in His DrinkS)
Lance Armstrong vs Alberto Contador
@
http://bikezilla.blogspot.com/2009/02/alberto-contador-vs-lance-armstrong.html
Eh, while I really wish Lance would stop twittering crap like that
and whatever may have gone on behind the scenes, on the road the team did a lot of work for AC, Klodi in particular.
but did they ?
for AC specifically?. or, at the times they were working, was it not necessary to do that work in order to keep LAs hopes alive ?
and
where were they (not just the other riders, but everybody on Astana) when AC needed to get to the start of the Annecy ITT ?
I guess my point is whether it was intentional or a byproduct, he benefited from their work
and I don’t really buy the ITT story. I’m withholding judgment on that until I see it in something other than one Spanish newspaper.
OK
so he benefited from their work, but that does not address the question ‘were they working for AC, or LA ?’ If they were working for LA, then your assetion that “on the road the team did a lot of work for AC, Klodi in particular.” is not valid.
Fine, but I would consider it semantics
and it is more valid than your assertion that “w/o them, he DID win.” To me it is hard to say who they were working for, because almost the entire time the work benefited both AC & Lance. Was there any work done for Lance that was detrimental to AC? Not that I remember. You can claim, probably rightly, that a few of the tactics of JB were not in the best interest of AC, but its pretty unfairly disparaging to the other riders, whom I can’t remember ever doing anything that hurt him, to say he won without them.
well, we could always go back and count how many astani would bring conta back to the peloton after a nature break/mechanical/etc, as opposed to bringing back armstrong
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
my assertion
w/o them, he DID win did not mean ‘detrimental to AC’, but rather they never did anything to assist him in particular. I did not say that the other riders did anything that hurt him, but just that they never did anything to help him specifically.
Well, I would disagree with that
I would also say that claiming “w/o them, he DID win” implies that he won on his own, without help, and, as I said, its hard to argue that he didn’t benefit greatly from their work, regardless of whether LA did as well. In all seriousness, if you can point out a time when they did not work for AC when they should have, I would like to hear it, because I can’t think of any.
If you could provide some examples I would like to read them
I’ve looked around but haven’t been able to find any other articles. As a football fan, I’m just very skeptical of things like that I read in a lot of Spanish (or English) newspapers. 90% of it is crap.
ABC, El Mundo, EL Pais
Ciclismo. Frankl,y I found it hard to find any that did not have it.
I should have said, "if you can provide some non-Spanish examples"
again, I take most things like that in Spanish papers with a hug grain of salt.
El País, at the very least, is one of the best papers in the world.
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
damn
those are some twitter “fighting” words.
Lance should stop twittering, or maybe keep it up if he is wanting to get under Bert’s skin? Lots of mind games going on.
You can see my up/down comments not too far up, and I gave LA an “UP”, even though he is an arrogant prick when in fighting (racing is a fight to him) mode.
Lance is the epitomy of the Texas stereotype… Bold, brash, and arrogant.
A quick story to illustrate the Texas attitude I so frequently have witnessed: I worked for 8 years as an IT consultant for Perot Systems, owned by Ross Perot, another brash Texan. Great man actually, but when it came to business, the gloves were off. I was sent down to Ft. Lauderdale, Florida to head up a portion of an IT project for National Rental Car. National was owned by Wayne Huizenga, who also owns the Miami Dolphins, and is also a brash dude. Before going into a big meeting with Ross, Huizenga, and Huizenga’s henchmen, Ross briefed us on tactics. We were going to manipulate the negotiations to make them FEEL that they were getting the best of us, yet in the end we would get what we want… We killed them. Sorry for the unrelated story, but that attitude is fairly similar to Lance’s… manipulate, bully, and win. It doesn’t make him a nice guy, but it has helped with a lot of winning.
You know, I basically agree with you on Armstrong.
I don’t mind the brashness, arrogance, trash-talking, whatever. If anything it makes him more interesting, fun, means he has a big personality…and pretty much all the great cyclists in history, with some obvious exceptions, have had big personalities.
What annoys me about Armstrong, and what I even find hypocritical, is that he seems to begrudge others the same right. Armstrong spends the whole Tour – and the whole season leading up to the Tour – making basically jackoff comments about Contador. Then Contador makes a few ass-ish comments about Armstrong…and Armstrong cries foul, starts talking about how Contador’s out of line, etc.? Give me a break.
Someone else invoked Michael Jordan, and I think this is where Jordan has it over Armstrong: Jordan wouldn’t cry foul if someone trash talked him, he’d just go dunk in his face.
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions
there's the rub
Armstrong CAN’T dunk on Contador. Not anymore. He even got punk’d in the time trial.
My take...
Ups
-Contador. Went in thinking he was an incredible rider and there was no way he was walking away without the yellow jersey unless he got pushed off his bike, but never really warmed to him. But seeing hin on the podium in Paris? He was just so happy and enthusiastic that I almost didn’t mind that he beat Andy… Also love the understated subtle jabs at armstrong.
-Cav. Pretty similar to Contador, in that I thought he was amazing but had no real feelings for him. Again, interview in Paris changed my mind and brought out the warm fuzzies…
-Breakways. There seemed to be a lot more breakaways making it, and most of them were won by cool people… HH, Brice Feilleu, Lulu etc etc.
Same
-Saxo Bank. I could do a post on almost all their riders describing my love, but well, I’m lazy. Suffice to say that the HTFU twins Jens and Stuey were as awesome as always, Fabian makes me want to move to Switzerland, and Frank and Andy are never allowed to not ride on the same team. And so happy for Nikki Sorenson! Everyone else was cool as well, even though strangely, watching CAS timetrial in fast forward is like watching a duck rider a bike…
-Photography. The photography was how I originally got sucked in the cycling, and yet again, so beautiful. What was even better, after spending time in France last year, was when they went somewhere I’d been, or over a mountain we drove up (Stage 8 up the Port d’ Enva lira especially.)
Downs
-Living in New Zealand. Having previously enjoyed the convenience of the tour happening after dinner but before I went to bed, the time difference between France and NZ really sucks. Too late to stay up, too early to get up, and still be in any condition for work.
-Lance. When I first got in cycling (about 2003/2004), I was a fan. Then he left, and I learnt more about the sport, and found my own favourites, and my admiration faded a bit. And then he came back. Even without the Lance is God/Lance is Satan media, it was all just a bit much.
-Cadel/Silence Lotto. Always went for Cadel because he was Australian, and I admired his determination and tenacity, as well as thinking that a lot of the press coverage he got was unfair, but he has got to find a new team. Even if he does so, I’m not convinced that he’s going to get back to the ‘so close, but no yellow’ form her had for the last few years.
-Phil & Paul. I watched a lot of the tour in fast forward this year, so I didn’t get to listen to them all that much. But while I seemed to have lucked out on a lot of the Lance-love they displayed, they just seemed to make a lot more mistakes this year. IMHO, they commentate to the lowest common denominator – they are excellent to listen to when you only follow the tour and don’t really know anything except that all these people were riding bikes around france in strange clothing. However, their commentary about chateau’s was still pleasing :)
After reading pretty much every comment on this page
I think we as a group may be looking at the whole LA/AC drama the wrong way. We all seem to be concentrating on personality conflicts and stupid comments. The thing that everyone has right are the bits about JB. Clearly he didn’t support AC exactly the way he should have. But, a couple of things bug me. First, the idea that anyone ever thought LA was going to solely ride for AC. Did anyone really think that? Of course he wasn’t going to. I don’t really know that you could expect him to. Yes, AC was the leader and all that but at the end of the day, there wouldn’t be a team for AC to lead if it weren’t for LA. Yes it is a different team (in name) but the structure is there because of the success and notoriety that LA brought JB which in turn brought Trek to Ass-tana and on and on. Now don’t get me wrong, I am not defending LA, just being realistic. He is LA after all. Another thing, AC is a paid employee, not a part owner or anything else. He is paid to listen, take orders, and win the race as are the domestiques. The other riders rode for him, directly or not, they did their job. One last thing befor I STFU. After 4 years off the bike and with the accomplishments of the past, I don’t necessarily think that it was wrong for JB to put LA in the spotlight. He, more than ANYONE else on the team, deserved that hands down. His presence, backstory, and cause has done more for the teams he has been on than all the other successes they have ever had or probably ever would have even if AC were to win 10 TdFs for Ass-tana. Did JB go about it wrong? Probably, but we will never be privy to the behind the scenes stuff. In the end AC won the race and isn’t that all that really matters? I am not a fan of LA and never have been but I know that if he weren’t around, I would never have started riding in the first place and wouldn’t come to the PdC everyday, multiple times a day to catch up with you all.
If I just had one more gear, I...
quotes from CN
Armstrong concluded his ‘gloves-off’ by re-Tweeting a comment by friend and Trek Livestrong director Axel Merckx. "A champion is also measured on how much he respect his teammates and opponents. You can win a race on your own, not a Grand Tour."
So, how do you measure up, Lance ?
While Armstrong acknowledged Contador’s undeniable sporting abilities, stating “Alberto was far superior to anyone else in the race this year,” his actions on Saturday evening belied a lack of respect for his teammate’s impending Tour de France victory. While the Astana team had a party to celebrate the victory Contador would confirm in Paris less than 24 hours away, Armstrong chose to have dinner with people from RadioShack, the title sponsor of Armstrong’s new American team for 2010.
Is this a reply to me or just a comment?
In any case, I get that LA is a turd, I’ve always known that. I guess I just never for a minute really had a favorite to win this race. I was more concentrated on the individual stages and those winners along with the green jersey comp and not on the tension in Astana or the petty infighting between the two. That said, I always expected LA to do exactly what he did and never had any fantasies of LA leading Contador up the Ventoux and on to victory. As to LA not attending the victory party for AC, from a business stand point, it made more sense for him to schmooze the Radio Shack people so I can’t fault him for that. But from a personal viewpoint, I think he should have ridden for AC once all was said and done. Get water bottles? Probably not. Cover attacks and ride for him? Absolutely.
If I just had one more gear, I...
+1
I get that LA is a turd, I’ve always known that. I guess I just never for a minute really had a favorite to win this race. I was more concentrated on the individual stages and those winners along with the green jersey comp and not on the tension in Astana or the petty infighting between the two.
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
And are we sure Contador would have welcomed Lance's presence?
I just think this kind of you-dissed-me/well-you-dissed-me-first stuff is so subjective, and based on such incomplete and/or slanted info, that it’s more of a Rorschach test than a reasoned discussion.
To me, Contador got a well-deserved yellow jersey, Armstrong got a well-deserved podium spot, no one did anything heinous on the road, it’s all good.
and from
Benjamín Noval
"Armstrong intentó desestabilizarlo, pero no lo logró"
“Armstrong tried to destabilize it, but failed”
http://www.lne.es/deportes/2009/07/28/noval-crei-triunfo-contador/787981.html
No,
because he was not selected for the Tour, (surprise). Only Paulinho was there to help AC, even though he had asked for Noval to be there also. (er, you & Paulinho are sleeping here tonight, ’cos LA has the best room in the hotel) But as he is a rider for Astana, (probably only until tomorrow), I thought our readers might like to know what his view was. While I can admire LAs achievements as an athlete, especially after overcoming his cancer, I find that (just like AC) I cannot have any respect for this man because of his behaviour.
I meant Noval rode in the past for LA, 2004&2005?
completely agree with you btw., no respect for LA&JB anymore.
by Bruce Suomi on Jul 30, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
yes, noval starting riding with postal in 2004... then discovery... then astana
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Many teams have a designated "freelancer"
maybe there’s a better name, but…a guy who’s main job is to ride for himself, be at least borderline competitive, and step in the leader slot if the leader has to leave the tour (hurt, sick). He can go for stage wins or GC standing as the tour progresses. He gets modest team support at best (i.e. only when it does not detract from supporting the team leader). That’s a role that would have fit Lance fine, but he didn’t see fit to play things that way. To be fair, if things had played out that way, there would have been some less informed racing fans out for blood—how DARE the team not support Lance first and foremost? How DARE Contador assume that he was the team leader just because he recently won three grand tours? Heck, some people are still making noise like Lance only got third because Contador didn’t spend enough time working for him.
(How many teammates has Lance ever pulled onto the podium during his wins? Zero. How many times has Lance’s team won the team prize? Zero as well, I believe, until this TdF. So if we accept the questionable statement that goal of a strong team should be to put several people on the podium, Lance has failed at this, consistently.)
good point
I was a little surprised to hear that US Postal never won the team classification, but I checked, and you are quite correct.
Can't believe no one has mentioned Haussler!
Up:
Haussler – what a ride. What a finish. Even Paul Sherwin was choking up.
Wegelius – twitterer of the tour – hilarious.
Wiggins – give ’em heaps.
Down:
I know I’ll probably get crap for this, but what was with the girly outburst from Cancellara when Cadel got in a breakaway?. Lost me with that one, big time.
TTT – I reckon that set it up and turned it into one of the most boring races in years.
LA – Over him, and sucks the focus off so many other deserving riders.
You are right about Haussler
Fantastic ride! I also forgot to mention Nicki Sorenson, another great ride. I hope that this is just the beginning for HH.
If I just had one more gear, I...
The problem with Haussler
Was his spring. I expected, or at least hoped for, more in the Tour. I think there were some people here who wondered in what way Cervelo would solve the Thor and Heinrich problem. But it was never a problem because Haussler was never there in the early stages, then he got the sore, then he won his stage and then the Tour kicked off with the Alps. Except for his stage win and the TTT, his best result was 15th on the second stage.
Staring at the swim team gets you killed by a gang of dancing ninja men who know how to twirl.
by TheFigurehead on Jul 28, 2009 4:28 AM EDT up reply actions
no, but
I picked him in my velogames team (yeah, I play another brand of fantasy, what of it?) thinking he’d rack up a string of 3rds to 5ths. A stage win was welcome, but not expected. I wouldn’t say problem, but it was surprising (for me at least) to see him win a stage like that, as opposed to maybe sneaking a win in a flat stage (almost) Milano Sanremo style.
HH is super talented
That dude can climb and ride the cobbles. He won the Schwarzwald Triber GP (?) earlier this year and that is supposed to be a seriously hilly, super difficult course. I can’t wait for the next few years to see how he develops.
If I just had one more gear, I...
i'm with you
on Cancellara – definitely lowered my opinion. amusingly (or not as the case may be) Cadel posted on his site that day:
I did go back for bottles today …first time this tour for me… and nearly got flattened by the Saxo Bank car…
also agree about the TTT
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
if it wasn't cance who bitched to evans, it would have been another rider in the breakaway...
being a gc contender (even if down so much on the standings), evans was a threat to the breakaway staying away.
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Sorry, Cancellara's earned the right to tell Evans what to do.
Evans is not one of the Patrons; Cancellara is.
I have no quibble with what he did either
but I’m fascinated about why you think he has the right. Genuine question, not the precursor to an argument.
fair question, here's an answer:
Palmares: Won multiple monuments, olympic champion, beat Evans in the Olympic road race, won multiple tour stages
AND personal characteristics: this one is hard to explain and probably represents my mammalian pack-instinct brain projecting: Cancellara is simply a better leader than Evans: he doesn’t panic in difficult circumstances.
The personal characteristics bit doesn't give anyone a right to anything
Again, ridiculous.
If I just had one more gear, I...
cycling isn't a computer game
there are “patrons” whether you like it or not, and personality comes into play. Cancellara, by virtue of his status, is in the best position to speak up for what all the other riders in the break are thinking.
They were not going to stay away if Cadel was there, guaranteed. Therefore, they were going to stop working if Cadel stayed there, or they were going to manage to drop him. Cadel could choose to stay there, and make sure the break was doomed (lose-lose scenario). Or he could get dropped, at the cost of some exhaustion to the break (lose-neutral scenario, with Cadel losing). Or he could drop back, and let the break go (lose-win, with Cadel losing). Seeing Cadel loses in every scenario, it’s inadvisable for him to stay there, to screw it up for everyone else, unless that’s part of his team’s tactics for the day (and I’m not sure how that could be, unless they had a deal with one of the other teams).
Tony, as a bit of a patron, got to break the news to Cadel, and insist that he believe it.
In other words, and I'm stating the obvious,
not only is he good he’s charismatic. It would help Cadel if he had the leadership skills to go with his talent, and I suspect I think more highly of what he has achieved – but I like Tony more. See, it really is like the playground :)
yes it is
like the playground – who likes who and why is not always easy to sort out. so i’m not a Cancellara fan – not sure i can tell you why exactly. i can appreciate his skills all the same. eventually i won’t give a damn about what he said to Cadel, but in the moment it was a reminder that Cadel was damned if he did and damned if he didn’t and i didn’t like it. as far as Cadel’s leadership skills are concerned, i’ll take a pass on that old debate.
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
That's ridiculous
Cancellara is no patron of the peleton. Seems to me that the GC riders have a higher position in the hierarchy of the peleton. I don’t think he has earned the right more than a person who has finished on the podium twice before. That makes absolutely no sense.
If I just had one more gear, I...
See, for me this is all part of the game
It’s Cance’s job to bitch about Evans being there and it’s Evans job to judge if it’s in his (longterm/shortterm) interest to take the abuse or to drop back. If the stages didn’t have this psychological element to them they might as well ride 21 TTs to determine a winner. (yes, SpunOut, I know you wouldn’t mind 21 TTs)
Neither riders actions make me think less or more of them.
you posted right, seahorse--
if you were replying to rbjhan, your post would not only be underneath that one…it would also be indented. Like this one, replying to you.
It would seem that GC riders should have a higher position
except that it doesn’t always work that way.
Partly that’s because the pack hierarchy isn’t just established within the Tour (and even then, it’s not just based on gc results . . . and even then Cadel’s palmares aren’t that much more impressive than are those of Cancellara).
But the other part is that “Patronage” isn’t SOLELY based on results at the end of the race: a lot of it has to do with comportment DURING the race. Evans is a whiner who can’t even lead his own team—why should else listen to him?
uh, thanks for the lecture
my post was about the Saxo Bank car not the bottles – a bit of humour in light of the tiff in the breakaway. and you’ll forgive me if i don’t agree with your assessment of Evans – i won’t bother trying to disabuse you of yours.
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
My view of Cadel is definitely that he's in the
“more sinned against than sinning” category. I don’t know if he’s an effective motivator or not; I suppose, as with everything, that depends on the particular people you’re trying to motivate. Sort of circular to try to argue which is a worse fit, Cadel for his teammates, or his teammates for him.
agreed
well put, with the addition that i’ve seen/read some evidence this year to suggest that he and some of his teammates are/have been good for each other and like/respect each other. that doesn’t necessarily make it all come together, of course. and it’s been done to death, but problems on the road point to problems further up the chain, too, in my view.
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
i take it you weren't replying to me there R Mc....
if so, you should re-read my post
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
What did Cancellara say to Hesjedal?
They were both in a break and then Cancellara went back to the group to pull really hard for Saxo.
He caught Hesjedal who seemed to want to go to the back of the group. It looked like Cancellara read him his rights.
I would have agreed with Cancellara on that – but it was difficult to read what was happening.
On the stage 8 Evans breakaway thing
This video interview thingo might be of interest ;-)
Thanks Lou
Supports what I thought. It also reinforces the fact that Tony wasn’t the only ‘enforcer’ although I have little doubt he was the most voluble :)
Yeah, well...
he does have an Italian father ;-) … and likely had The Great Bjarne yelling in his ear…
I've actually spoken positively about Cadel here
although not on this thread. I like cancellara too, so I’m showing my cards upfront. I don’t think Cadel is helped by your editing here. He’s sensitive enough without conspiracy theories being attributed to him.
I have no argument with you saying what you did about Tony, but the suggestion here is that saxo was out to get Cadel.
Some changes for me as well
What can I say, a lot of the changes are relative small ones…
Losers (in my own little world):
-The course. I can understand that they want to keep the interest to the last days of racing. But I was kind of bored. And in one way I also think that meant that we got bit more of Armstrong-talk buy the English speaking streams I had going. There was nothing else to talk about.
-The English speaking commentators on the streams I was watching… Kelly was boring, and the other who’s names I can’t seem to remember was either talking about Armstrong, Cavendish, Wiggins and Hincapie. Fair and square in someways but in the long run it is just not interesting enough, there are a bunch of other guys to talk about as well.
-The twittering, god while some of them are interesting, I just think it’s too much sometimes.
-Brynell, for reasons already stated in the thread.
Neutral:
-Klöden, Sastre, Evans, Mechov, Levi, the “big guys” that never seem to catch a break except the wrong ones, like Levi. They have been around for quite some time and was this the swansong that we saw?
-Euskaltel, Astarloza and the boys. Well I have always been a fan, always will be. they are only neutral on the curve because they have a solid place at the top. Really happy to see them come through in such an amazing way this year.
-Shlecks: always been a fan, always will be.
Winners:
-The Giro, lets face it, it might be smaller, it might be less known in the world, but the landscapes are better, the mountain stages are usually crazy and the course of the giro is a thing of beauty. And even if I’m partial, the women are better as well… or does that go under landscapes???
-Armstrong, while my feelings towards him off the bike is one thing, I have to say I’m so impressed of his winning mentality and his way riding this tour. In one way this made a much better impact on me than any of his wins. He fought, he dug deep and I could never have predicted a podium place for him, not even top 10. And I have to wonder what he could have done with a little less upper body muscles (his shoulders looks like a swimmer compared to the other riders).
-Contador, I have been a bit neutral towards him but I have warmed up. Seems to be a great guy, some of the interviews on Spanish television has been quite funny. And with four GT wins, he might nab a few more and I like the fact that he has won all three GT. The question will probably be later in life when you compare the palmeres of some great riders like Coppi, Merxx, Hinnault, Armstrong, Contador etc. How do you rank 5 Tour wins + loads of monuments/classics vs. 7 Tour wins one classic vs. Loads of GT wins and maybe (and I hope I’m wrong) no classics.
-The French teams, stage wins, yellow jersey, top 15 placings, the list can go on. They did good this year. When the “big teams” like Rabo, Silence, Milram etc fell trough there was no shortage of teams to pick up the slack.
-Kenny! ’nough said!
-Thor and Cav, going for it, and in the end appreciating the fight and giving a lot of credit to the other. Great to see good sportsmen after they have calmed down a bit. Anything can be said in the heat of the moment, it how you behave after that decides what kind of person you are.
And las most missed:
Swedish Eurosport. Anders Adamsson and Roberto Vacchi have been so missed! I can’t understand that if I pay for a Eurosport package online, why can’t I choose what language I want it in…
I'm not trying to be a homer for my own site, but
to answer your question about ranking riders and and comparing palmares, I’ve endeavored to do just that with my Top 25 Cyclists of the Modern Era series of articles.
FWIW, Lance has now moved ahead of Felice Gimondi (they were tied on points going into the Tour), and has taken sole possession of the 10th spot. Alberto has jumped all the way up to #34, just ahead of Jan Ullrich.
Holy Smokes
that is some amazing work, TTC… very informative and thorough.
You obviously put a ton of time into it. My only thought (and it is likely wrong) is a TDF win being worth 8 points, and a Paris-Roubaix win being worth 4 points. My thought is that a 21 day stage race with wildly varying types of riding, time trials, drama, travel, etc. MAYBE should be worth more than double a single day race, no matter how prestigious it is. Just a thought, and again fantastic work!
Yeah,
deciding on the appropriate point values was a bit of a challenge. I tried to keep things pretty close to the way the old UCI points (now Cycling Quotient) were assigned. They award 600 points to a GT victor, 275 for the Monuments, and 400 for the World Champ.
In the end I decided to bump up the point value for the both the Tour and P-R. Had I kept things status quo with the CQ points, the single-day studs would have ranked even higher.
I suppose this could be the launch pad for another post – something along the lines of “How many Monument/WC wins are equal in prestige to a single Tour victory?”
Thanks for the compliment. This project took me almost a year to complete, but I loved every minute of time spent on the research. Dream job = full time cycling historian.
by The Team Chef on Jul 29, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
thanks for the info and that does make sense to closely mirror the UCI ratios… I would think/hope that they had a lot more thoughtful and informed discussions than my thoughts!
Yes, that would be a cool dream job, and based on the info I’ve seen from you in my short time here, you would be on a short list of potential candidates. The Top 25 series is fantastic, and I also very much enjoyed the article comparing cycling eras. I have much to learn about the sport I love, and articles like these help me appreciate things other than the TDF, which us insular Americans tend to laser focus on!
That went straight onto the toolbar, not in the "bike stuff" folder.
If you’re not going to turn this into a book (or thesis), please justify not doing so! Good stuff.
I Know Nothing
Greetings
Lurker-Newbie here. Great site, lots of back story and varied viewpoints. I live in California and watched the whole event on Versus. I had only dabbled but my recreational biking has stepped up and with that came more interest in the events. So here is what I took from my first full viewing of the TdF. I did however DVR the event and skimmed quickly over the ads.
- France in HD – wow. Beautiful place.
- I like saying Euskaltel-Euskadi
- Those Catlike helmets are cool
- What do they talk about if Lance isn’t in the event?
- Riders I like: Fabian Cancellara, Andy Schleck, Bradly Wiggins, Thor Hushovd, Big George Hincapie, Franco Pellizotti (nice hair) and others.
- KENNY VAN HUMMEL
- All Lance, All the time
- They go uphill as fast as I go downhill
- Who are all these crazy people lining the roads and why do they have to fist pump and run along side?
- Why do they let a guy with 3 foot steer horns on his head near these guys?
- After a grueling hill climb you can might have to punch a fan or two.
- The closing pedals of Contadors TT, dude looked just like Alien.
Yes the US broadcast was very Lance centric (the feed was from French TV though I think???) Yes they stirred the pot whenever they could about rifts in Team Astana (and then blamed the media for inventing the rifts.)
I am not a Lance guy, but they sure made Contador look like a dbag. It is good to hear the other side of things.
I enjoyed Phil and Paul quite a bit. Especially the winding switchbacks Phil termed a giant maggot.
All these guys are exceptional athletes, and hopefully clean.
And finally I LOVE ME SOME TOURBECCO, is there a Vuelbecco in the family?
Enjoy the game
Apparently
(and others here know more about this than me) the guy with 3 foot steer horns was specially shipped over from California. The best they could find among the natives was stuffed marmots.
www.raginglonghorn.com
Buddy of mine talked to him:
“I stopped to talk with him, even though I was bonky and had puke-breath, but I got to ask him how he got over there for every major Tour. His response? “Unpaid Leave”. I still have NO IDEA what he does for a living outside of this, but he’s becoming as emblematic as Didi the Devil, so maybe he can pick up some sponsors or something!"
Nice first post
The nutters lining the roads are fans like you ;) only they live there, or took it upon themselves to travel and see their heroes. Crowds on climbs seems like an essential ingredient for me to enjoy the proceedings! But you’re right: a lot of them go too far, especially the runners. Or in this Tour: the kids who shot Freire!!
oh, I see a roadside (or 2) for you in next year's ToC...
welcome!
George bunny-hopped my bike somehow. He's like a cat. -- cvv
by cg. on Aug 3, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Featured Stories
¡Viva la Vuelta!
Celebrate La Vuelta a España at Podium Cafe.
Stop by each day for Vuelta updates, live race chat, post-race happy hour, and more.
Visit our Vuelta section for all the latest stories.
Mountains. Many much mountains!
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recommended FanShots
Recent FanShots
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
