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Q: How Do You Beat Cavendish? A: TRBWR

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Seriously. What follows are fevered ruminations that if you will no doubt laugh at. But the purpose here is to think of a strategery that could deny Cavendish the Green Jersey.

Imagine you are a DS on one of the other teams. Pick any team: Quickstep or Skil Shimano or Cervelo or whoever. You have a rider or two who under normal circumstances is a contender for the Green Jersey and furthermore you've constructed the team with that goal at least partially in mind. You knew coming into the Tour that Cavendish and Columbia were the favorites but you thought you had a reasonable chance. But today's 2nd stage, well, that reasonable chance looks like it's rapidly going south. Drastic measures must be taken. But what can you do?

The first thing that pops into my head is never help Columbia chase down a break. Not one rider. Not once. No helping is permissible. In fact I'd have quiet discussions with other DS's about this since I don't want any other team helping out Columbia either. I want to weaken that train as much as possible before any bunch sprint. A side benefit to this is that Columbia would need to commit the likes of Rogers and Kirchen and Martin to chasing down breaks thus making them weaker for non-sprinting stages.

Not helping is a first step but it's not enough. Cavendish won't chase down anybody and he can grab my sprinter's wheel and win from there too. You've got better odds that way but he's still faster and he'll still win a bunch of points and still might capture the Green Jersey. You need to take away his points-but not in a Tonya Harding way.

Another effect of maintaining a moratorium on helping Columbia is that they will get totally pissed off and stop chasing. Great! That's one less stage that Cavendish doesn't get any points! But that's only half of a winning strategery. You want your riders to win points too. So you need to get in as many breaks as possible.  Every day, including non-flat stage days.

Now if you do this you won't be able to send out your #1 sprinter on every break, expecting him to stay ahead of the peloton and thus grab sprinter points. That would be as bad for other teams as allowing Cavendish and Columbia to dominate and it won't be allowed. So you will need to send out different riders all the time, every stage, and whoever sticks, great. You want to make the Green jersey prize be a total free-for-all with non-sprinters in the running too. You just want to break the strength of the Columbia train and Cavendish.  You want to turn this competition into a "Third-Rate Belgian Warmup Race" or TRBWR  where the field is wide open. If you are Cervelo you are happy with Klier getting points and Haussler and Hushovd being aggressive. No more siting in the pack waiting for the final sprint. TRBWR. Rabobank? Hey a Fletcha win is okay with you. Clement is fine too. Kuschynski is just begging for this type of race from Liquigas. Fine. Vogondy or any Feillu or Terpstra or whoever. Great. The more anarchic the better. And don't chase the break. Change the rules of engagement. TRBWR.

Just two rules apply: 1) No GC contenders. 2) No Columbia train with Cavendish. Columbia can send out other riders into the break. I'd even invite Saxo to send someone tomorrow that would take over the yellow jersey if the break succeeds just to get things started. Say Stuart O'Grady-and make sure the other guys on the break have a worse time then him so he'll get the yellow if the peloton and Cancellara fail to get close enough because you don't care about the Yellow Jersey on the flat roads.

Yeah I know: crazy.  Injecting how races play out in Belgium in March is just not done you say. Why not? What would you suggest? Or are you saying it's not possible to change how flat stages play out?

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Aha!

The What We Talk About When We Talk About Cav thread!

by civetta on Jul 5, 2009 5:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Just do the Theo Bos...

well it only got him a month.

Vamos Alberto!!!

by Phil H. on Jul 5, 2009 5:50 PM EDT reply actions  

I think you've finally cracked.

But you’re cracking brought us another acronym, TRBWR, and it’s usage is sure to piss off Chris.

by sminer on Jul 5, 2009 6:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Thinking here...

I remember last year that this time Chris wrote a post where he wondered why ther flat stages in the Tour were so different than Belgium races. That posts is in the back of my mind now.

by ursula on Jul 5, 2009 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

GGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRNNNNNNNNWRRRRROOOOOOOOOOORRRRRGGGGHHH!!!

Your power is turning our darkness to dawn,
Roll on Columbia, Roll on!

by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 6, 2009 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think the basic objection to this is that it doesn't necessarily work...

…Cav could still win a few stages and have more points than any of the various other guys accumulate in your plan.

Why? Because a lot of the breaks are gonna get caught no matter what, else the GC goes to hell in a handbasket and that will not be allowed.

by Ed K on Jul 5, 2009 6:12 PM EDT reply actions  

I'd swear

that in the Tour of Britain a couple of years back Cav was in the breakaway through one of the, ahem, “mountainous” stages. This could be a toughie.

by Monty. on Jul 5, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was.

& through the Lake District, too, if I remember right. Think he finished pretty high up in the KOM (well, moderately steep hills) competition that year, too, behind, er, Ben Swift…

by civetta on Jul 5, 2009 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Doesn't necessarily work"

Oh yes- definitely I am not guaranteeing success. But I am saying that the traditional way is claose to 100% fail for everyone not named Cavendish and so I am looking for a solution that brings the possibility down to 75% or 50% or less. Any thoughts on that?

by ursula on Jul 5, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

this year i remember three times Cav beaten

maybe was more but these ones i remember pretty well.

First was Hushovd in Toc. Cervelo surprise everyone taking the lead in last 2/1km, and provoque a great caos and Cav simple lost his position

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL6fX3Hux3o

Then in Tirreno Adriatico.
This time was Farrar who could oivercome in last 100m. This really was the best win, i’m don’t remember someone doing this to Cav, it was a pretty surprise.

But honestly, i don’t see Farrar do it, again. And i don’t know why the other sprinters let Farrar stay in the wheel of CAv(after many times trying and failed!!!) How many times we saw the same old story this season, like we see it today once again..Freire, Hushovd, Boonen, guy with more experience and don’t want to try it . Maybe we will see this in the next days, anyaway, today was only the first.

The other time i remember was when Pettachi do it. I think is the more effective, but the timing have to be perfect, and here i only see Freire do it…. That is jump away from Cav’s wheel before he begins his sprint.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwh7mT6hyUA

by semprenaroda on Jul 5, 2009 6:16 PM EDT reply actions  

Farrar did it that one time b/c Cav went too early...

…Cav’s achilles heel is he can’t hold the sprint that long. He’s got pure speed.

The way to beat him is to force him to go earlier than he’d like. How you do that, I dunno.

by Ed K on Jul 5, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Another thing about those three times

And I think its the most important thing is that each of those happened on an early flat stage. Thereafter Cavendish and co. got things fixed and started winning regularly. Basically he and Columbia have the ability to size up the opposition, correct things and then win regularly. And at the Tour he already has things sized up as he’s raced these guys enough this year. He nmight lose an individual flat stage but that will be practically random chance.

by ursula on Jul 5, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly. Part of this is that Cav is faster than anyone else's fastest over a short distance...

…part of it is that Columbia’s leadout train is better organized than anyone else’s. Cav can and does win by following other leadouts and other wheels, but far more often his serious competitors (and Farrar is the textbook example of this) are trying to grab his train. As long as Columbia has no serious competition and can continue to deliver him perfectly more or less at will, then he’s going to be very hard to beat. You set up a few other sprinters well for the finale, and then things might become a bit more interesting.

by Ed K on Jul 5, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Setting up other sprinters

Makes sense. I can’t see Garmin doing it. Milram is too dumb. Benna is not healthy enough. Quickstep?

Or is it possible to jam the Columbia train?

by ursula on Jul 5, 2009 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure I see it happening this year either...

Cervelo could, if they ever got their HH vs TH figured out, though possibly not with the team they’ve got here. But yeah, Tyler’s got one real leadout man, and a good one, but one’s not enough. Agreed re: Milram. Leaky is a mystery, but have they ever had a particularly cohesive train this year? QS should be there, but not until Bones is…

But the challenge presented by Cav/Columbia is to develop an answer. The answer is not simply having a guy who’s as fast or nearly as fast. Sprints are team efforts just like GC victories.

Disrupting the train? I’d say the best way to do that is to have an effective one of your own. As long as they can simply own the front whenever they want to, they are hard to beat. If there are other strong, well organized, tactically astute groups up there, then things become more interesting.

On that note, you know how QS never seems to be able to set up Bones well this year? How much of that is b/c they’ve gotten squeezed out by Columbia’s better organization?

by Ed K on Jul 5, 2009 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good points

Columbia does seem to me to be better organized than Quickstep this year. In fact it seems like every team except Columbia has taken a backward step in bunch sprint organization this year and as Brad says below this makes things seem even more lopsided.

So that’s whay I want to blow up the Columbia train before it gets a chance to get going- or make them ride from 100km out.

by ursula on Jul 5, 2009 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dunno if that really works...

…unless there is also real leadout competition. Failing that, they’ll still do the same thing, just be tired; or they’ll let a break or two go, possibly one that blows up the GC and then that’ll be the end of that (and they won’t care, having no interest in the GC at all).

by Ed K on Jul 5, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

But Cance gave an interview after the race that basically said

Thanks columbia for helping us out, we did what we had to do, they took over, etc etc. They showed the other teams if you want to win you have to ride. The team that did, won.

PS Thanks for the help.

Cavendish - "le Mozart du onze-dents" (the Mozart of the 11-tooth sprocket) – L’Equipe

by andrewp on Jul 5, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hoping for a repeat tomorrow I'd say!

Cavendish - "le Mozart du onze-dents" (the Mozart of the 11-tooth sprocket) – L’Equipe

by andrewp on Jul 5, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Definitely

That way Saxo will be more rested for the TTT and Columbia will be a little more tired.

by ursula on Jul 5, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

But if Quickstep do that

then they have no real reason to be at the Tour. Their sponsor may not like to see them losing, but it is better to get some TV time pushing Cav every time than just rolling around at the back of teh bunch with Bweeg and FdJ. I bet those fruitless Garmin leadouts at the Giro gave some pretty good publicity and a few nice corporate photos, even if the win wasn’t there at the end.

by Monty. on Jul 5, 2009 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

The way to beat him is to force him to go earlier than he’d like.

He had a pretty long sprint today, though not much competition due to the crash/chaos/narrow finishing straight.

by civetta on Jul 5, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

So how do we do that?

I’m guessing that you are suggesting a way to strip him of his lead out train early. How?

by ursula on Jul 5, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Milram tried that one at the Giro last year

Marco Velo barged his way in to the train in the last k. And Cav didn’t win. Unfortunately for everyone else Andre Greipel did.

by Monty. on Jul 5, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gent wevelgem a couple of years ago

is the example of how to detonate a lead-out train—and Ignatiev tried it today.

Bert Roesems soloed away with about 14k (??) to go. his gap was never more than about 15 seconds, but trying to reel him in simply blew the doors off of the Milram train.

He did get caught, but Milram was down to Zabel WAY earlier than they wanted to be. I forget who won, but they should have sent some prize money over to Roesems.

I rather like Ursula’s idea because I don’t think you’re gonna out duel Columbia’s lead-out train.

So . . . who’s not a gc contender who could hold off the front of the bunch for 5-8k?

by R Mc on Jul 5, 2009 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Flecha, Chav, and Devloder immediately come to mind...

…but I’m sure our esteemed colleagues could find a few more.

by Ed K on Jul 5, 2009 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Marcus Fothen is good at holding off the field

I actually kind of like this plan. Col-HTC probably just stick to the plan and keep the tempo high and constant and don’t lose more energy then they normally would but you never know. They may panic a bit, especially if there are multiple attacks from guys with strong engines..

by Jens on Jul 6, 2009 2:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

David Millar or Brad Wiggins

But chasing GC aspirations with CVV dooms that plan. If CVV’s injury takes him out of contention early, I think you have to send David Millar out at 8k, and once he’s caught, send Wiggins out. Both have huge engines and can stress out the sprint trains. All the while, sit Pate, Dean and Farrar behind the Columbia, QST and Milram trains.

Hopefully the other teams burn their matches on the chase and a three man Garmin train will be plenty to take control for the last kilometer. Still, Cav is going to beat you 75% of the time, but it’s better than the clean sweep I think he’ll get this year.

by PopUp Rolen on Jul 5, 2009 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, he went earlier than he wanted in MSR too, we see what happened there…

Face it people, Cavendish is the best right now. He’s not going to lose green on sprints (not the ones at the end of the stage anyways), gotta beat him another way.

by plinytheelder on Jul 6, 2009 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agree.

I get the impression quite a few of the more experienced guys are backing off, though with the chaos the finish today, I’m not sure we got a complete view of what might be possible.

by civetta on Jul 5, 2009 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

That was most likely posted before Ursula's

ahem, someone copying a major publication here?

Vamos Alberto!!!

by Phil H. on Jul 5, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ha!

I resemble that remark!

No, I have to say I hadn’t seen that. They also don’t go into such a wild scenario the way I am. Probably because they don’t want to see Cav beaten. English and all.

So is there a more realistic way than what I’m suggesting? With no Tonyas?

by ursula on Jul 5, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Look, seriously, and all 'Bahs' aside...........

Is Cavendish really that fast or is there a lack of competition? Can we produce some stats on this? Anyone? I’d work toward developing this theme. Further, and this is for the record…I am nothing but impressed with Cav’s turn of speed….phenomenal….I can, and will not, stand for arrogance and apologies for it. Rooney, Cavendish…auto-biographies….who’s next Phinney for pete’s sake….that’s just the tip of the iceberg and then there’s the cycling equivalent of ’66….

Bah....Cavendish?!

by bradBordeaux on Jul 5, 2009 6:30 PM EDT reply actions  

Devil’s advocate question here…but is there a single sprinter in the history of sprinting who wasn’t arrogant? OK I’m sure there are some, but it’s like a boxer or a track sprinter, I mean the running kind, those dudes just lose their edge if they don’t believe they’re the best, and if they don’t constantly express that belief.

by plinytheelder on Jul 6, 2009 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Freire

but he’s never been a real real sprinter.

by Jens on Jul 6, 2009 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Brian Smith on the ES post race coverage made a very pertinent remark

After pointing out his victory margin was “incredible” (had to add that!!) he pointed out that if you start sprinting after him you are dead meat – e.g., petachhi at the giro who got first run. Hanging around his back wheel gets you nowhere.

Then check out Renshaw at CN

You take on a leviathan

Cavendish - "le Mozart du onze-dents" (the Mozart of the 11-tooth sprocket) – L’Equipe

by andrewp on Jul 5, 2009 6:35 PM EDT reply actions  

Renshaw's point about Cavendish's size

is interesting. If you watch him, when he goes into sprinting mode, he often seems to get a hell of a lower on the bike than anyone else, & quite often he also seems to be able to manoeuvre himself more easily.

by civetta on Jul 5, 2009 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, he torques his elbows way down

he might require dental work as close as he puts his teeth to the stem.

by R Mc on Jul 5, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok time for me to be serious(hate this)

I know there are mega talents in every sport and when it comes to Cav he’s the Tiger or Fed or Bert of sprinting. But is it really impossible for others to gain his speed? Guy’s need to get out there and practice hard a lot. But also, there have been circumstances were Cav can’t gain seperation like he did today but his opponents are always positioned behind him. The other sprint teams may have to create a pack that makes sure Columbia doesn’t always get Cav in the best position. Give Columbia credit for clearly being the best lead-out team around, and by a big margain. No other team can come close, look at Milram failing to get Ciolek in a winning position after doing so much work for instance. But teams like Milram need to stop getting up front with 10km to go, make Columbia do the work until the final2-3km and then push them out the way. Not easy but the only way I see Cav being beaten.

Vamos Alberto!!!

by Phil H. on Jul 5, 2009 6:35 PM EDT reply actions  

So pretty much what Ed said above

just read those comments

Vamos Alberto!!!

by Phil H. on Jul 5, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, and I think this is pertinent to Brad's question as well...

…what there hasn’t been for awhile is competition for the leadout. You take Cav’s superior speed, give him exactly what he wants in terms of a launching position, and yeah, he’s going to beat you every damn time. Make him start the sprint in a less optimal position for him, then he becomes beatable. Hell, HH almost had him in MSR.

by Ed K on Jul 5, 2009 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right

So given that there will be no real rivals for Columbia’s train this Tour it sure seems inevitable who’s gonna win the Green. Anybody know who was the last winner of the Green jersey who also won in Paris AND who was wearing the Green Jersey on the last stage?

by ursula on Jul 5, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

McEwen 2002

Staring at the swim team gets you killed by a gang of dancing ninja men who know how to twirl.

by TheFigurehead on Jul 5, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep, he can't be beaten straight up if he's at all on.

HH hit early and surprised him. Cav has been beaten by new guys that he hasn’t been up against as well. so it’s all about disrupting and surprising him and his train.

by sminer on Jul 5, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

GHH

I think teams with two quality sprinters should try a GHH MSR move. Have one of their guys start the sprint 800m before the line, hope Cav is forced to chase him down and then have your top sprinter stay on his wheel and then go around him late. Of course Cervelo is probably the only team who has a second sprinter better than Renshaw.

Vamos Alberto!!!

by Phil H. on Jul 5, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes he won't win, but it could bring chaos

and could force Cav to chase him down or break up the Columbia train. That’s why teams should send their second guy. GHH was about 700m or so and it almost worked.

Vamos Alberto!!!

by Phil H. on Jul 5, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

MSR is the best possible example of Cavendish's greatness

the key to that race isn’t that Haussler almost won, or that Columbia’s train didn’t work so well…it’s that in spite of everything, Cavendish still won. Amazing stuff – Haussler had a huge lead and Cavendish was way out of position. What happened? Cavendish – going earlier than he wanted to, mind – closed a gap that no one else in the peloton could close, and won the damn race. What a rider.

by plinytheelder on Jul 6, 2009 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

I've heard references

to Cavendish turning around 2400w during his sprint.

Am I just making that up? If not, nearly 3hp will be hard for others to match.

by R Mc on Jul 5, 2009 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're making it up...

…this article in the Guardian references a 1600 watt number, and I can’t find any others that are higher.

by Ed K on Jul 5, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks

that sounds more reasonable.

by R Mc on Jul 5, 2009 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

The other astonishing number...

he hits 151 rpm.

I’ve always had good knees, but that would send my kneecaps flying across the oceans.

by sminer on Jul 5, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rephrasing the question

I’m putting this here although this could fit above with the good comments of Monty, Ed, andrewp, etc.

Think of Quickstep. Their train is not firing. Boonen’s been talking for a year now (at least) on how he doesn’t love bunch sprints. So if you are QS (say Lefevre) do you care if Boonen or Chavanel gets the Green jersey? Why not try to reproduce the strategy that was so good for you on the cobbles? Why not use your numbers to draw out the Columbia sting? Why not make Columbia have to choose who to follow-Boonen or Chavanel or Devo?

by ursula on Jul 5, 2009 6:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Worked on the cobbles because the groups were much smaller

if you have 2-3 guys per team max still left up front it is much tougher for them to chase down a guy than for 7-8 guys on good paved flat road.

Vamos Alberto!!!

by Phil H. on Jul 5, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was just thinking this in relation to Phil above...

Don’t just have one random dude attack, but a concerted series of hard shots just out of sprint range to try to blow it up.

by Ed K on Jul 5, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right

1) The attack must be thought out. No TV time breaks that are never meant to succeed. You need a good sized break- 10 or more riders from several teams. Much like what happens on the stages between the Pyrenees and Alps.

2) And you need to commit the likes of Chavanel and Devo and Boonen (yes-on a break) and Terpstra and Knees and Velits and Wegmann. Preferably two of em per break. Make Columbia react.

3) But you need to start this strategy ASAP because the whole point is to wear down Columbia’s train. Make them give up because guaranteed they will eventually.

by ursula on Jul 5, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think trying to organize several teams to do this won't work.

But I think if someone (say QS) tries it and either it works or looks like it could have, then others may well follow the example catch on.

by Ed K on Jul 5, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good thought

The thing is there are a lot of teams that have no interest in the GC who have several riders who could mess with the normal flow of a flat stage. Plus several of the GC teams will have no interest in chasing down breaks as they will never threaten the overall. It just takes a different mindset.

by ursula on Jul 5, 2009 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

But if Boonen is in a breakaway

Will the others in that break ride at all? They know they have no chance against him… if no one in the break cooperates, it won’t be hard for Columbia to catch…

by MathieuG on Jul 5, 2009 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

They will if its not *just* Boonen from QS.

The point here is to make a team effort. Why this isn’t exactly a Flecha attack either. More like a QS / Rabo style classics attack.

by Ed K on Jul 5, 2009 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ugh, I didn't put that well.

Point is, hit it hard and try to force a selection at some point before the leadout / finale moment.

by Ed K on Jul 5, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good point. That would have worked today (possibly). There was a hill in the last 15k

But – No team drilled it. (Putting Ignatiev off the front doesn’t count) Tire Cav out like you thought MSR was supposed to. There was a cat 3 straight off from the gun – sprinters biggest hate is a climb early on, drill it. (One of the most memorable quotes from his Boy Racer book is when he says that at the start of one stage of the tour that went uphill immediately – the startline looked like the finish of a sprint. Him, hushovd, freire, zabel all on the front. Start at the front, top of the hill – still in touch!) Use what the parcours gives you – then play games!

Cavendish - "le Mozart du onze-dents" (the Mozart of the 11-tooth sprocket) – L’Equipe

by andrewp on Jul 5, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

One thing that might help guys beat Cav...

is not missing a gd turn in the last few meters. I’m curious to see how dominant, if at all, he wins tomorrow. Today’s sprint you can almost throw out the books because it was so messy.

Vamos Alberto!!!

by Phil H. on Jul 5, 2009 7:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Can't totally throw away the book - when Koldo went down all those he took out were already 10/15 + places back

And, therefore, were’nt going to win.

The only unbelievable thing of the whole stage was how, after the crash, there were still 4 columbia at the front

Cavendish - "le Mozart du onze-dents" (the Mozart of the 11-tooth sprocket) – L’Equipe

by andrewp on Jul 5, 2009 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Today's stage reminded me of that 07 stage

where there was a huge pileup but the leading Quickstep train was in front of it. The stage Steegmans won.

by ursula on Jul 6, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Was that the stage

where Cav was the one who ended up in the barriers? I know we said no Tonya Harding stuff, but he got a lot of it that year and look at how many stages he won. Just sayin.

by Monty. on Jul 6, 2009 5:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wonder if Cav will let Renshaw have a win this year..

I think at the moment it would be close between him, Farrar and Boonen for the right’s to ‘second fastest man’ at the Tour

errrr....am i supposed to sign this??

by Flatbagger on Jul 5, 2009 7:26 PM EDT reply actions  

What about

and I am a newbie, so be nice (>:>) putting pressure on him and Columbia during the mountain stages?

Force a heavy pace, Cav has trouble in the Mountains, you may drain him some and weaken his legs for down the road.

But you might also wind up killing the other sprinters too…

by Nazgul35 on Jul 5, 2009 8:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Cav is no worse in climbing than any of the other sprinter's except Freire and Ciolek

but when the big mountains come up they don’t want to waste any energy either. All the sprinters will form the “grupetto” and cruise to the line. There is no reason for Cav not just to drop out the back and take it easy if sprint teams try pushing it up a climb, he will soon have his fellow sprinters around him.

Vamos Alberto!!!

by Phil H. on Jul 5, 2009 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was referring

to the non-sprinters (ie the climbers) but the later comments show that doesn’t even matter due to how the stages are set up…

by Nazgul35 on Jul 5, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Everything Phil said is exactly right, plus no one's going to ride mountain stages..

…for the sake of sprints in other stages. Too much strategy re the mountains themselves.

But, the one thing that your post brings to mind is that Cav was really going on in the second week last year about how tired he was. One wonders, in a real way, whether he might lose a good bit of his edge as the race progresses, opening things up for others who aren’t quite so beaten down by the high mountains, length of a three week tour. We really have no way to know how he’s going to respond to 3 weeks of Tour de France, and part of his “I’m not trying to win the green, just finish” may be a result of the fact that he doesn’t know either.

by Ed K on Jul 5, 2009 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is only one sprint stage in the last week

assuming Cav won’t be able to get over that final climb on stage 19. The second week is heavy on sprints so he may not need to have much energy after week 2.

Vamos Alberto!!!

by Phil H. on Jul 5, 2009 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Make The Race

Don’t sit on his wheel.

by tedvdw on Jul 5, 2009 9:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Great question, however...

i think the big question is: How do you beat Columbia?

Could Cav win as many stages with another TdF team? I doubt it. Why? The answer, I believe, lies in the goal of the team you put together. Columbia has been optimized to win stages, not the GC. Other teams must balance support for GC contenders with (minimal) support for their sprinters. Think Freire and Hushovd and their corresponding team leaders Menchov and Sastre. Give Columbia’s lead out men to any of these guys and the picture could look different.

How do you beat Columbia? I agree with the ideas exposed above, mainly make them work, but I’d add another element, counteract Cav’s explosive, yet short lived, sprint by sending your sprinter on a break with one lead out man and start the “sprint”, not 500m but 5km from the finish. This is feasible in stages where there is a climb shortly before the finish or there a slightly uphill finish (stages 5,6, 11, 12, 13,… ). If you keep your sprinter consistently ahead, you may end up with the green jersey due to the intermediate springs.

Finally, if a desperate move is required, give Columbia a serious GC contender (yes, I know you can’t do such thing) or pray (if you believe in such thing) that their TdF’s aspirations grow.

by Chainring on Jul 5, 2009 11:31 PM EDT reply actions  

Still tomorrow is such a good day to try this shit.

The day before the TTT is a day that Columbia, and Saxo especially but also Garmin don’t want to chase down a break. So make ’em pay for that.

by ursula on Jul 6, 2009 12:15 AM EDT reply actions  

I thought about that but...

getting Cav into a position like today almost guarentee’s a win while even with a good ride they might not win the TTT, and it’s Columbia, they want both. This early in the race the legs are still fresh and drilling it tomorrow probably won’t kill them the next day. Maybe they’ll save T-Mart and Grabsch a bit.

Vamos Alberto!!!

by Phil H. on Jul 6, 2009 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Possibly right

But even if caught one extra day of leading the peloton will tire Columbia out just that little bit more. But that’s me talking and with all of this its easy to yell ATTACK from my couch.

by ursula on Jul 6, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

I hear yeah, I too want some more action

I thought we might see some fireworks on that un-categorized bump today, but what do we get? Just one rider trying something….booo!. But Columbia can rest in the mountains, they don’t go for that silly GC thing, it’s all about the stages.

Vamos Alberto!!!

by Phil H. on Jul 6, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Frame Pump.

That is all.

Respect the Shit List; it respects you.

by crashdan on Jul 6, 2009 12:38 AM EDT reply actions  

Pfffft

Finally Tonya Harding shows up!

by ursula on Jul 6, 2009 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

PS:

Now that Semprenaroda has The Good as his avatar, between him, me and Wellsie, we’ve got the full Trifecta going on.

Sharp!

Respect the Shit List; it respects you.

by crashdan on Jul 6, 2009 12:39 AM EDT reply actions  

More action?

People were bumping each other all over the road, dudes missed a turn, guys were scrambling all over the place. I was barely breathing the last k, and you want MORE action?

Kids these days…

"I get paid to hurt other people. How good is that? How good is that?
I get paid to make other people suffer on my wheel, that's good." Jens!

by jsallee00 on Jul 6, 2009 12:39 AM EDT reply actions  

crap

meant as reply to Phil

"I get paid to hurt other people. How good is that? How good is that?
I get paid to make other people suffer on my wheel, that's good." Jens!

by jsallee00 on Jul 6, 2009 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

The bumb I was referring to came about 15km from the line

yeah there will always be action in the final km of a sprint stage but I’m talking about the lead-up to the finish, I wanted to see some dude’s attack!

Vamos Alberto!!!

by Phil H. on Jul 6, 2009 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Let's not forget Ette.

To beat Cavendish at this TDF and deprive him of his sought after Green Jersey, you also have to beat one Eric Zabel, winner of more Green Jersey’s than anyone.

And if you saw them embrace after Cavendish’s MSR win you know that Zabel is somewhat committed to the idea of Cavendish winning more than a couple of those Green Jerseys.

Tactically has there been anyone better at winning the points competition?

Look at the team support he was getting when he won his, and look at his competition.

Not that beating Cavendish heads up on a sprint was enough of a challenge …..

"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi

by muk on Jul 6, 2009 1:32 AM EDT reply actions  

Exactly

That’s why the other teams have to change the rules.

by ursula on Jul 6, 2009 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

The bah-ers are wrong on one point

A lot of the things Cav says have to be interpreted in a strategic context. Many of you have pointed out the strength of the Columbia sprint-setup and how this is unrivalled at the moment. Much of this stems from a belief in their finishers ability to finish the job. Guys will kill themselves for you if they believe you are worth the effort.
So all the hugging and backslapping serve a purpose. So do the comments that we perceive as arrogant.

By establishing that he will win, barring mistakes from himself or his teammates, as the default outcome he plants this belief in his teammates. When he says that he would have won a stage if he hadn’t made this or that mistake he isn’t dissing his opponent, he is sending the signal to his teammates that the problem will be fixed and if they work just as hard tomorrow their efforts will bear fruit. The strategy is working. i don’t see anyone else with teammates that dedicated and single-minded in their support and it’s not just about the quality of their captains. It’s in their heads.

by Jens on Jul 6, 2009 2:42 AM EDT reply actions  

Yep.

Basically it takes money to make money. In all the things I am saying here I haven;t said how much I like Cavendish and how Columbia are doing things. A well-oiled machine they are and I never think “arrogant”. I do think “single-minded”.

by ursula on Jul 6, 2009 2:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

+2 (thousand)

See the Adam Hansen video from the Columbia PR videos Zoe Rochelle posted a fanshot about. It personifies the above.

Cavendish - "le Mozart du onze-dents" (the Mozart of the 11-tooth sprocket) – L’Equipe

by andrewp on Jul 6, 2009 3:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Disrupting sprint trains

Just do an Ekimov. Not many riders can pull it off but Cancellara did it before. Try to attack in the last km’s. Big guns like Pozzato, Ballan, Chavanel, Flecha could try to go out from 3-5 km. The big time trial aces (Cance, Wiggins etc) could go with 1-3 to go. It’s not easy but it will bring chaos to the sprint. That increases the chance that Cav gets boxed in.

"Where there’s a will, there’s a way.": Alberto Contador, shortly after waking up from brain surgery.

by Lopex on Jul 6, 2009 5:06 AM EDT reply actions  

+1

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Jul 6, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

+2

Make them lead the peloton for mile after mile

Plan B…….

Cavendish - "le Mozart du onze-dents" (the Mozart of the 11-tooth sprocket) – L’Equipe

by andrewp on Jul 6, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of all teams, Rabobank may possess the means of defeat.

Their weapon-in-waiting is Theo Bos who is certain to be on the senior squad next year regardless of his elbows. Next year could be Cav verus Bos for the Vert…if either is able to finish the Tour de France.

Mon coeur appartient à les forçats de la route.

by Josenka on Jul 6, 2009 12:55 PM EDT reply actions  

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