More on Contador v Armstrong
by lucybears on Aug 1, 2009 8:28 AM EDT
79 comments
http://www.podiumcafe.com/2009/7/26/963370/changed-impressions-or-im-rooting
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/deportes/uomo/solo/comando/elpepidep/20090727elpepidep_2/Tes
that I judge deserves a separate thread
As the article is quite long and google-translate has its limitations, ElizaB at
http://www.dailypelotonforums.com/main/index.php?showtopic=8722
has made it available in english.
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actually the translated article is from nycvelocity and not the dpforum
by steph- on Aug 1, 2009 9:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
(and
I agree, entering the wild world of audio for you interviews might actually be a step back)
by lucybears on Aug 1, 2009 9:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, we'll get to see how this plays out next year!
Until then, tick… tock… tick… tock…
Racing for Victory and Free Beer!
by DemonCats on Aug 1, 2009 10:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Is this Lance's response?
Gotta love the Spanish press. I understand their enthusiasm but does it really have to change reality?? C’mon, fellas. We aren’t stupid.
about 2 hours ago from UberTwitter
by Mark T1979 on Aug 1, 2009 11:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
"The soul selects her own society then shuts the door" - wise words from Majope
by nicknorco on Aug 1, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just more Lance in your face denials
He can deny L’Equipe allegations. He can deny El Pais allegations. He can even deny and defy reality too. What else is new?
I heard they were testing for a new drug on the Tour. It was called "Cram-it-ol"
by RoadRash911 on Aug 1, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is right up there with 'hater tots'
On the scale of totally empty rhetorical responses to criticism. Gee Lance, do you have one single reason to offer why we should disbelieve this article? No? Really?
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
by Ed K on Aug 1, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which article?
there have been a few.
I assume you think Lance is referring to to the Annecy TT pre race stuff.. I think he is alluding to that. But if Lance wants to deny that story, why not just deny it? Why leave it a mystery?
Seems to me a straight forward denial would be in order. It is a pretty serious charge made against him.
by BTD on Aug 1, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Given Lance posted only 2 hours ago
it’s safe to assume it’s a reference to the El Pais piece.
by Mark T1979 on Aug 1, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Carlos Arribas piece?The entire piece?
That was from a few days ago.
Hmm. Most of that piece is just facts.
Is he denying the inferences drawn? The questions raised?
Again, it seems to me some specificity is in order, particularly about the alleged Annecy incident.
The rest of the article seems to me to be a relating of how Contador felt, In other words, what Contador believed.
It completely explains Arcalis. Not that it needs explaining but . . .
by BTD on Aug 1, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but the nyvelocity translation into English only went up yesterday.
So that’s probably what he’s responding to.
by Mark T1979 on Aug 1, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he past the point of plausible deniability
It’s just so Lance and his little war
by RoadRash911 on Aug 1, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look
Reality has a well-known Contador bias.
by Sui Juris on Aug 1, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
priceless
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Aug 1, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my new sig line
____________
"Reality has a well-known Contador bias." -Sui Juris"
by ZoeRochelle on Aug 1, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
even better
____________
"Reality has a well-known Contador bias." -Sui Juris, PdC Editor
by ZoeRochelle on Aug 1, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a Point of Information
I did not edit ZR’s post to say that.
(ZR, I’ll send the cash later.)
by Sui Juris on Aug 1, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hehe
____________
"Reality has a well-known Contador bias." -Sui Juris, PdC Editor
by ZoeRochelle on Aug 1, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love how he tries to
deny it even when riders like Tom Boonen are quoted…
"I felt sorry to see the way they were treating him," said the Belgian Champion, Tom Boonen.
by cyclingdiva on Aug 1, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For me
Tactically, the important point made in the article is that if Lance got a hold of yellow, LA and JB might have demanded that AC work for him.
AC’s Arcalis attack was totally necessary.
Personally, I thought there were several times when LA was riding for himself and not the Team leader.
Moo
by Willj on Aug 1, 2009 11:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If Lance had got into yellow
There would have been no conceivable way for Contador to have launched any attacks. It would have looked disgraceful.
Essentially he would have been limited to pacing Lance up to digs by the Schlecks etc. His only hope would have been to take time back in the Annecy TT.
by Mark T1979 on Aug 1, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
somehow Bert is a lot smarter than some people think….
by rbjhan on Aug 1, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He won the race "in the hotel"
by ignoring Bruyneel.
This is pretty straight forward I think.
by BTD on Aug 1, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought this was obvious
the whole time.
This is why Bruyneel’s credibility is nil to me. He talked so much about not wanting yellow early but Armstrong almost got it after Stage 4, because he “rode smart” in the peloton split in Stage 3 (with Astana riders helping to keep the gap.)
My own view is that whatever trust Contador had in Bruyneel was ended in Stage 3.
After that, he knew he was on his own.
by BTD on Aug 1, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bruyneel lost all credibility when he started posting his lame as messages on twitter
"On a personal level, I have never had admiration for him and I never will"
~AC about LA, me about Johan "drama queen" Bruyneel
by Phil H. on Aug 1, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do not know when that started
But I do know that the incredibility of Bruyneel for me came when he protested against Contador’s attacks by saying he did not want to defend the yellow jersey early (or even in the middle apparently) but allowed his team riders to join in pushing the split on Stage 3 knowing the TTT could put Armstrong in yellow.
by BTD on Aug 1, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again
From Armstrong’s perspective, I think he acted in his best interests. The only way he could win was by tying Contador behind him while he was in yellow.
It so happens. imo, that Armstrong;s interests conflicted with the best interests of Astana because, as Bruyneel himself said in an interview with El Pais, his only winning option was Contador.
I have consistently said that from Armstrong’s point of view, his actions on the road and off, make perfect sense.
It so happens that Armstrong’s interests did not align with Astana’s interests.
Bruyneel did not act in Astana’s interests. He acted in Armstrong’s interests.
That is why, in my view, the real culprit of this Tour in Astana was in fact, Bruyneel. Not Lance Armstrong.
Is Armstrong’s protestations about “the team” ridiculous? Sure, but they serve his interests. So they make sense.
I suppose you can say Bruyneel acted in his interests because he is an Armstrong lackey (I’m sure Bruyneel will make more money with Armstrong next year). But, at the end of the day. Bruyneel’s legacy is hurt. Maybe he cares. Maybe he doesn’t.
I think he should care.
by BTD on Aug 1, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
a classic conflict of interest...
JB knew he’d find himself in this position when he brought LA on the team. if he were acting as either rider’s agent or attorney, he’d be sued or disbarred.
what really stunned me was his tweet about “keeping mouth shut and being thought a fool…”. publicly taking a side like that, in such a classless way… showing that kind of hostility towards a rider on his own team. it was just ugly and unprofessional.
it does seem like there has been more acknowledgment of LA’s fuckery in the US press this week. at least in my local news, the online comments by fans on various AP news stories, etc… even FoxSports named him #2 in a list of athletes they wish “would just go away”:
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/pgStory?contentId=9864184#sport=NFL&photo=9864504
no one likes a bad loser. or a manager who was clearly considering where his bread was going to be buttered after this competition ended.
by willowby on Aug 1, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now we're siding with Fox
Yea I wish LA would go away so we could have our precious little known and never heard of sport back to ourselves. Smart thinking guys.
by sminer on Aug 1, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well I'm not saying 'go away'
just noting where others, unexpectedly, have. on the whole I agree more with BTD that the biggest ass in all of this was JB. saw another interesting take on this last evening, from a non-cycling ‘management’ perspective:
http://blogs.govexec.com/executivecoach/2009/07/for_armstrong_and_contador_the.php
“The first is drawn from Johan Bruyneel, the manager of their team. What should he have done to get Contador and Armstrong on the same page? From the press accounts, it sounds like the two superstars barely spoke to each other over the three weeks of the Tour. Shouldn’t the job of a manager (any manager) be to facilitate communication and cooperation among the stars on the team? I think so.”
not sure this was possible, given their competing interests. but JB knew that going in… and certainly knew, in the end, who he’d be with next year.
by willowby on Aug 1, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DIdn't know if you agreed with that (just go away) sentiment or not.
Many people do feel that way and I think it’s a selfish desire to want someone who brings so much attention to the sport to “just go away”. It can’t be argued that it’s negative attention either, that’s just where their attention to the topic draws them, to the negative stories.
by sminer on Aug 1, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think if he'd
not joined astana, or if astana had dissolved before the tour, it would not have been so negative – or negative at all. As it is i think it’s been pretty negative. Next year should be a lot better.
by yeehoo on Aug 1, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely better next year
And it’s a shame it didn’t all change before this year’s TdF.
by sminer on Aug 1, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The blunt take on this is: Lance, meet shark
or, to be more accurate, Armstrong meet shack . . .
up-staging his own team-mate’s stage win and TdF win to announce a sponsorship deal with a second- or third-rate electronics retailer . . . oof.
Beyond that, can someone explain to me how Armstrong’s twitter war is helping stay on message wrt the Livestrong brand?
He’s hurting himself here—which is really unfortunate because this tour COULD have turned out to be a really good story for him, if he could have just wrapped his head around the concept of actually being a supportive team-mate when it mattered.
by R Mc on Aug 1, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get it either. but what strikes me as funny
is that as the French embrace him as more humble and human, some Americans begin to see him as self-entitled and ungracious. go figure. :)
this was in Slate a few weeks ago… probably old news here, but the comparison to Palin rings oddly true:
“They both react to any criticism with extreme defensiveness. They demonize their enemies while at the same time cultivating nonstop melodramas that keep them in the news. And while they both periodically issue petulant threats to quit, you get the funny feeling that neither one is going away anytime soon.”
by willowby on Aug 1, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm,
I think the comparison to Palin only rings oddly true because of some nice creative writing skills. Also I’m not aware of LA issuing “petulant threats to quit”, defensive?, ho yea.
by sminer on Aug 1, 2009 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah I was wondering about that too
I thought it was perhaps something from the past, but someone here would have pointed it out by now if it had actually happened.
(wryly smiles/simultaneously flinches)
by willowby on Aug 6, 2009 5:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the idea that the french
are now embracing him as more human was an idea that came about before the tour even happened, and then the media stuck with it to the end. Seriously don’t think it was something the media observed and then reported. Other than playing up this angle a bit i really haven’t noticed any difference in the attitudes toward him here. Of course for those who never liked him, their attitudes are likely to soften a little if he’s not going to win. I seriously doubt there are many french who really followed the astana soap opera of this tour and now have an improved opinion of armstrong.
by yeehoo on Aug 2, 2009 4:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The French are not averse to heros who
a) are psychologically complex
b) are flawed
c) don’t win
d) make a lot of drama in the process.
On the other hand, he’s missing the essential ingredient of self-abnegation. Or alternatively, immolation / martyrdom, a la Jeanne d’Arc. But this too may come to pass.
by JFS_PGH on Aug 4, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, which is the reason I yelled in excitment when I found out Tony was still in yellow after the TTT
well that and I like Tony far more than Lance.
"On a personal level, I have never had admiration for him and I never will"
~AC about LA, me about Johan "drama queen" Bruyneel
by Phil H. on Aug 1, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even if Armstrong got into yellow...
Contador was always going to pull it back in the Annecy TT, wasn’t he? (And I’m pretty sure Contador, Bruyneel, and Armstrong all knew that.) My take is that if Bruyneel wanted yellow for Armstrong, it was as a consolation prize for Armstrong, knowing he wouldn’t be able to hold it (which none of us think he could have, do we?). As mentioned above, Bruyneel has said he never thought he could win with Armstrong.
I don’t disagree that Bruyneel favored Armstrong over Contador—but given that Lance couldn’t win, it was still in Bruyneel’s interest to have Contador win, and I don’t think he would have intentionally jeopardized that. I think that, being relatively confident of Contador’s win, he then looked at the secondary goals of (temporary) yellow and/or a podium spot for Lance.
There really was no value to the team in having Contador win by ten minutes rather than four; but there WAS value in getting a second rider on the podium. And he achieved that goal. He may not have given Contador all the support Contador wanted, but (judging by the results) he did give Contador enough support to win.
by tgartner on Aug 1, 2009 3:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No, he couldn't have held it, but
if AC would have listened to JB, I doubt it would have landed on AC’s shoulders after LA lost it.
by Sui Juris on Aug 1, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
at the risk of being very offensive
I’m going to assume that LA and JB knew the Radio Shack deal was in the cards going in to this tour.
Seem plausible?
Then, how about this: what better gift to give to a new sponsor than yet another amazing comeback and a record-smashing 8th tour win?
by R Mc on Aug 1, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure it was at least on the table.
Seriously, we’re talking about Radio Shack. Have you ever seen them move as fast as it would have taken to put that deal together in two weeks? Ha.
by Sui Juris on Aug 1, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if it was remotely possible
JB and LA wanted to engineer number 8
And …. it was remotely possible. The first 10 days reeked of them trying to engineer number 8.
AC was never really the team leader …. and the “brains” were always searching for victory. Remember in a late stage LA even threw his water bottle under AC’s wheel (I only slightly jest)
Moo
by Willj on Aug 1, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh.
Actually, that water bottle moment was the only moment where I believe there was some genuine help coming from LA.
by Sui Juris on Aug 1, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
is there any video footage of the water bottle "drop"
I’d like to send it to some Freudian psychiatrists and get their sub-conscious input.
Moo
by Willj on Aug 1, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh I think it would have happened.
If AC had played along with JB and LA’s wishes he could have helped Lance win another Tour. But to his credit, AC took his destiny into his own hands and squashed their plans.
by sminer on Aug 1, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe
Have a hard time seeing LA beating a Freed Andy Schleck. (As much as Andy has admirable concern for his bro, I don’t think we’d have seen him hanging around waiting for Fränk if the malliot jaune were on the line . . .).
by Sui Juris on Aug 1, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
true
schleck the younger was the other road block (along with AC) to Lance / JB engineering a win.
But it seems pretty obvious that they were trying to stay on track until it was clear #8 was not in the cards
I woke up in a cold sweat last night. I dreamed AC and AS had tested positive …. thus number 8 …. and I was being forced to watch CNN (and twitter) all day
Moo
by Willj on Aug 1, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing is...
Hardly anybody around here (even those of us who sorta like Lance) thought he had a chance of winning. And as it happens, we were right. He didn’t. So it seems a safe bet to me that LA, AC, and JB, who presumably knew a LOT more about their relative abilities, also knew that LA didn’t really have a chance. So, while I certainly don’t take all of JB’s statements at face value, I believe him when he says he never thought he could win with anyone but Contador.
I concede that JB would have preferred for LA to win… I just don’t believe he seriously thought it could happen, or actively tried to make it happen by holding Contador back.
by tgartner on Aug 1, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My guess
is that if Lance had gotten yellow he would have lost it on Verbier. Andy Schleck was too strong there for any rider to keep Lance on his wheel. So either Andy would have gotten yellow or Bert.
by ursula on Aug 1, 2009 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sure totally agree
but this is after the fact …. and I say this without me having (quite) the biggest ego know to mankind
I think Lance hoped/believed/yearned/prayed otherwise in the early days at least and acted accordingly …. and screw AC
Moo
by Willj on Aug 1, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
dunno.
There are two reasons for investors not to engage in insider trading. Reason #1 is that it is illegal. Reason #2 is that it’s not effective: company insiders regularly misjudge the future promise of their company and its products, especially when assessing the upside.
by JFS_PGH on Aug 4, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, let's see,
Contador, best climber in the world, Contador in July of 09, second best Time Trailer in the world. By what math does AC not get the yellow jersey back. If he follows Andy’s wheel, he gets it in the Time Trial. I guess you think JB would have told him to let Andy go a few blocks up the road on the climbs. Yeah, big chance of that !
Gartner has it exactly right !
This is the only sport I know of where everyone agree the star didn’t follow his directors directions and everyone else is the bad guy. ( My sport by the way )
by thevaro on Aug 1, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
by the same math that hinault used in 85???
by Cycho on Aug 2, 2009 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really, you think AC gets up the road and JB orders him to wait.
I think Hinault used that one up in our life time. I know anything can happen ( for either rider ) but here is the math. After the TTT Lance has 19 seconds on AC. In the final TT AC takes 1:30 out of Lance. So in order for LA to win he needs to take 1:12 out of AC. I think it was pretty obvious to all of us that Lance was at his limit to be the 4th best climber in the race and AC was riding within himself to be the best climber.
I know Lance claimed that he was staying back in the second group for some tactical sacrifice but that is a load crap. The young guys left LA, Cadel and Wiggins like they were standing still. There is no way Andy and Lance would have dropped AC like that. So what would have happened is that you would have had a lead group of the Schlecks, LA, Kloden, and AC. Giving Astana a 3 on 2 in the first group.
I know its possible, but the way AC was climbing, I don’t think their is any way he could have lost 1:12. …. or much time at all.
by thevaro on Aug 2, 2009 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dropped chain?
Kidney punch from crazed non-fan?
three ill-timed flats?
sticky shifter?
lump in the asphalt?
Multiple minutes in past tours (and arguably perhaps this tour, counting up all of AS’s flats) have been lost on such things.
by JFS_PGH on Aug 4, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said, "anything can happen"
but my discussion was about team tactics and the likely hood of the old man taking time out of the best climber in the world in the mountains under any tactical scenario.
by thevaro on Aug 5, 2009 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Contador would have been a fool to risk that.
I mean yeah, that was their line – don’t worry ac, you got it in the bag, we’re just trying to get lance on the podium. Don’t you worry about a thing. We know what we’re doing. We are ze experts. There were only a few points during this tour to take time. I think they tried to neuter ac for as many of those as possible, thus giving LA every chance possible to pull off the miracle. Luckily AC wasn’t going for it. He did give in a little bit – the hesitation on colombiere. They got to him some, but not enough. There’s a chance things would have worked out for him had ac followed orders, but, well, he’d have been a damn fool to risk it. And i think he just didn’t see taking that risk as just either. It was kind of obvious that armstrong would have never done the same.
by yeehoo on Aug 1, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
... just in every other sport in the world.
We villainize all athletes in all other sports who injure their teams for their own personal gain. .. and I think …. we should villainze athletes who do not follow the team plan even if it injures their own positions. Heck, I think Levi could have won both the Tour and the Vuelta had he not been such an admirable teammate to AC and JB. If AC would have kept quite, followed his directors instructions, he would have won the Tour, not had any awkward moments with his teammates, and been a happier man for it. and if he followed his bosses instructions and got second or third that would be OK too.
Not that there was any chance in the world that anyone one that climbs like and Andy Schleck and and Time Trials like Fabian Cancellera could have ever lost the tour. ( Ok, the hypothetiocal case where Lance has the Jersey and AC has too pull him up when he can’t keep up, that one doesn’t wash either. Kloden, Popo, and Zubeldia would have gotten that job and JB would have sent AC on with Andy under any circumstance because anything else would have been giving away the tour, stupid, and obviously stupid on TV in front of 100 million people. No matter what you think of JB, no CEO is willing to flush his grand prize away in front of 100 million people) Ok, I ranted.
by thevaro on Aug 1, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In other sports, the win is created by multiple individuals scoring goals.
So the dynamic is very different. The star power goes with the rider, not the team. We talk about Merxk and Coppi, about Anquetil and Bobet, about Hinault, LeMond and Indurain—not about their teams or DS’s. We talk about Lance’s wins, too—as belonging to Lance. Cycling is a team sport, but the team dynamic and the “shoulds” for team leaders are not interchangeable with any other team sport I can think of.
by JFS_PGH on Aug 4, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I used to think so too
but after watching for a few years I found out that the team dynamic is huge in cycling. You can’t win without other great riders working for you, working relentlessly for you at great expense to themselves.
So at the team meeting, the boss says we are going to follow this plan, then in the race the star does something else. At the next meeting do you think the director is happy, do you think that undermines his authority with the team ? Maybe that causes ill will not only with with the old man but with the team directors, the staff and half the riders.
Most of the world may think Lance’s victories belonged to Lance but you and I know that if you take out the team trial margins and endless chasing and pulling by the boys, their would be far fewer yellow jerseys in Texas.
The team is huge … and disregarding the director and its affects on the team should not be minimized just because everyone is not happy the boss is back in town.
by thevaro on Aug 5, 2009 2:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gavia's "pillow talk" from December is worth a re-read
by El-Ve on Aug 1, 2009 4:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Lance is a dick...
Cant wait for Bert to rip his legs off next year.
by Cycho on Aug 1, 2009 6:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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