Kohl's Manager confirms bribing doping labs
by Drew... on Aug 14, 2009 3:45 PM EDT
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Which reminds me of this quote
"Out of 200 controls, 198 showed nothing. And I tell you, 100 of them should have been positive. “I would give myself a shot in the morning, the controllers came an hour later – so what.”
Maybe not so strange after all.
Staring at the swim team gets you killed by a gang of dancing ninja men who know how to twirl.
by TheFigurehead on Aug 14, 2009 4:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There was a story last year
(I think) about a Spanish private lab hawking its services in most unsubtle terms “pre-tests” and the like, which is not far from what some of the most cynical think that the programmes run by the “clean teams” were, i.e a way to find the limits of detectability, but what the Kurier article says (and CN doesn’t) is that Matschiner claims to have bribed lab technicians in a WADA accredited lab to do the tests for him. Kurier had another interesting article a few days ago claiming that prosecutors are close to bringing charges against Matschiner, so I don’t know why he thought that doing interviews for German TV was a good idea. Some interesting names mentioned in that story.
by Monty. on Aug 14, 2009 4:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
it's fact, not cynicism
that “clean teams” of the past did this. It’s cynicism, but perhaps not extreme cynicism, to think that some of the current “clean teams” could be doing something similar. I agree one would have to be pretty darn cynical to think that ALL current clean teams are involved in organized micro-dose doping. Very, very cynical. But not irrational.
by JFS_PGH on Aug 15, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorta puts "I've never failed a drug test"
in perspective, don’t it???
by R Mc on Aug 14, 2009 4:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And yes R Mc, it does. But for the last few years I've realized how easy it is to beat a lot of the tests for these guys.
I mean uh... hasn't that ever occurred to you, man? Sir?
by Drew... on Aug 14, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ditto
Oddly, it’s Nikki that keeps me from just throwing my hands up, spewing profanity and just assuming that pro cycling is impossible without ‘doping.’
And, y’know, if medical professionals were to up and tell me that pro cycling—especially Grand Tours WERE impossible without medical supplementation, I could probably handle that. After all, I grew up watching pro football.
It’s the hypocrisy, bald-faced lying, and vindictiveness when guys like Manzano, Jaksche, and Kohl detail what’s going on that bothers me.
by R Mc on Aug 14, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That nicely sums up my feelings towards it all
I can handle the cheating – just don’t lie to my fucking face when you’re caught red handed.
Another way of putting it, from the late, great Neil McCauley – “it rains, you get wet.”
I mean uh... hasn't that ever occurred to you, man? Sir?
by Drew... on Aug 14, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+100
The lying is what bothers me the most.
by Jimbo... on Aug 14, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course...
…pro football would be vastly safer for all the athletes without steroids. Vastly.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
by Ed K on Aug 14, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh yeah . . .
Best thing American football could do would be to go back to the pre-1985 definition of ‘blocking’ and ‘holding.’ Doing so would remove the need for 340 pound offensive linemen.
by R Mc on Aug 14, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That, but also just the insane joint injuries these guys are getting...
…becuase they are simply too damn strong for their own knees.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
by Ed K on Aug 14, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that and the concussions
but the knee injuries are actually much worse in women’s athletics—high school soccer, basketball, and volleyball especially.
by R Mc on Aug 14, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I was just thinking that...
…I think we saw the same article a year or so ago.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
by Ed K on Aug 14, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There've been several:
it’s a pretty hot topic in sports medicine research.
And I can run through probably a quarter of the rosters of the teams at my school and tick off their knee injuries.
And then there’s the blown-out shoulders on the swimmers . . .
by R Mc on Aug 14, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right...
…the piece I saw was trying to attribute at least some of the frequency of these injuries to bad technique. I find it an awfully interesting hypothesis to read next to Iris Marion Young’s “Throwing like a Girl.”
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
by Ed K on Aug 14, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
knee injuries
can be related to biology. Wider hips, more severe femur angles, etc.
But, I never understood how my brother could do the 200m butterfly and not destroy his shoulders.
by johnw on Aug 17, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What the article I read hypothesized is that it wasn't all biological...
…but that it was at least partly social, related to how girls are trained to inhabit their bodies and the way in which that training, unless deliberately counteracted, leads them to develop habits of landing wrong from jumps, etc., that put much greater stress on knee ligaments.
The point was that a fairly simple ‘technique’ program, just teaching certain basic things even to very advanced athletes (hight school and college age, iirc), was having noticeable effects on reducing the incidence of ACL type injuries.
It’s the connection to training, and Merleau-Ponty’s notion of motility and the lived body, that makes all of this relate to Young’s piece, which is an absolute classic if you’re trying to figure out things like how the ‘social’ order of phenomena might actually reflect back down onto the ‘physical’ order.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
by Ed K on Aug 17, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh and 200 fly...
…just sucks, incredibly much. In fact, it’s sort of my model for why the 4k pursuit must be like the most painful race ever. I actually liked racing fly in HS, but no more than the 50 meter leg of a 200 medly relay tyvm.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
by Ed K on Aug 17, 2009 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what Ed said
the key seems to be that for some as-yet unexplained reason girls learn to land with locked knees, as opposed to boys who land with more flexion.
by R Mc on Aug 18, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like a need to train opposing muscles?
locking joints is a bad habit used to get around weak muscle groups, isn’t it? I can imagine that guys who are athletic might engage in a greater range of motion outside of training hours, or a wider range of sports / fun / goofing around, while the most decidated women might train in a more focused way (?).
by JFS_PGH on Aug 18, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I got stuck with the 200 fly all too regularly. JV.
Yes, I do now have shoulder problems. BTW, sucks worse with undiagnosed asthma in smoggy circumstances. Hey Ed, how about a title or link for that article you’re describing? Sounds really interesting. I imagine some of it is as basic as the conflict between learning a “feminine” walk (narrow stance, knees in, swing ass) vs a stable walk (wider stance, less side-to-side motion). I can see that carrying over into a range of sports.
by JFS_PGH on Aug 18, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they clean up the NFL,
think of how much revenue will be lost by orthopedic surgeons across the country.
I mean uh... hasn't that ever occurred to you, man? Sir?
by Drew... on Aug 14, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At this point, how much more perspective is needed?
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
by Ed K on Aug 14, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
one that can infer exactly what sort of 'preparation' it is
that keeps guys like Heras and Hamilton ‘clean’ . . .
by R Mc on Aug 14, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well this is why Bernie Kohl may end up doing more than almost any other single individual...
…to help clean up the sport if he keeps singing like a bird.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
by Ed K on Aug 14, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hadn't seen any of this before, nor Figurehead's link
But then again I don’t go actively seeking the doping stuff.
What surprised me was how cheap the bribes were – E150 for risking your job? Seems pretty cheap to me.
I mean uh... hasn't that ever occurred to you, man? Sir?
by Drew... on Aug 14, 2009 4:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
seriously
I was surprised by that too. That’s a silly low price.
Murmurs about this kind of thing have been going on for a while, so it’s not especially surprising. Nice to have an on-the-record confirm though.
by gavia on Aug 14, 2009 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking -
If they can be a Bribed to say “Negative”, would there be any reason why they could be Bribed to say “Positive”??
"the rest was over 30. And that doesn't mean old and useless, but experienced and with the stamina"
Jens! Voigt, Crit Intl Interview, 2009
by CycleGirl on Aug 15, 2009 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For what I iunderstand they don't really bribe dopinglabs.
They only let samples test to know how ’far’you can go with doping. So they put dope in it and the lab is saying negative or positive. My understanding.
by Frinking on Aug 15, 2009 3:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I think this is right...
…basically they paid to get ‘unofficial’ tests telling them which samples were clean and which not.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
by Ed K on Aug 15, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It depends
On how easy it is to add another test to the rest. The testing, I assume, is already fairly anonymized and to see that one of the tubes don’t belong there they have first to suspect something and then compare a number on a sticker with the number on a list.
Staring at the swim team gets you killed by a gang of dancing ninja men who know how to twirl.
by TheFigurehead on Aug 15, 2009 3:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This however doesn't explain Kohl's out of the blue fairytale
If he has doped so well for so long then how come he suddenly rode with the best in ’08 and not before?
But it doesn’t really matter because in the end the new biological passport isn’t so much a tool to catch doped riders but more a way to diminish the gain from doping(if the UCI testers would hurry up instead of drinking coffee) allowing clean riders into the game.
That reminds me, Danish scientists find it a little bit suspicious that the blood values Wiggins posted rose during Tour de France.
Which raises the question how forgiving can UCI afford to be with the margins?
by OctaBech on Aug 15, 2009 4:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I thought he said his programme stepped up a notch in 2008
he was on the budget version before
by Drongo on Aug 15, 2009 6:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ehh, perhaps you should mention the whole Wiggins-analysis?
They said that on the whole the numbers didn’t indicate that it was anything but a clean athlete. The one thing that looks “a bit funny” is “a slight rise in his heamoglobin-level during the Tour” "
Source: Feltet (danish)
by Jens on Aug 15, 2009 7:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well it's not enough to convict him
but how small must the injections be(micro dosing) before losing their effect.
Would the minor deviance in Wiggin’s values be enough and is the deviance really that small if we compare to what he should have lost?
I do not know and that’s why I ask how lenient UCI can afford to be.
It would be easier had we known what Kohl’s values looked like. I noticed that on Feltet’s forum people were debating that the Chicken’s values were pretty much the same and they couldn’t understand how Danish scientists could read from the Chicken’s numbers that he was doped in ‘07 when Wiggin’s values show no clear evidence.
However I haven’t looked into the numbers used for the debate to judge for myself.
by OctaBech on Aug 15, 2009 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't speak of the science involved and I'm guessing you are not a medical expert either
Because of that I think it’s all the more important that we are intellectually honest when presenting this kind of stuff. Why just mention “Danish scientists find it a little bit suspicious…..” when the other part of of the same paragraph in the original article also has them saying that there are different things that might explain it, it doesn’t jump off the pages and you shouldn’t draw to many conclusions from it?
As for the “leniency”. As far as I’ve read the bloodvalues where never meant to convict anyone based on a single piece of data. A panel of experts analyze the patterns of data to determine if something is wrong. I’m sure a number like this is something that triggers closer inspection of the athlete however.
by Jens on Aug 16, 2009 3:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a very good guess, why I didn't try to comment on the comparison between Wiggins and the Chicken
But the possible explanations for Wiggin’s deviant values could also have influenced the Chicken’s values.
It is true that the biological passport wasn’t meant to convict riders, though UCI tried to sell it that way, but there were the health care card, where the UCI based on the blood profile could quarantine riders for their “own” good.
My problem isn’t with Wiggins but the UCI. I believe Wiggins is clean but how can one rely on it when at the same time there are stories from riders like Khol about how they circumvented the system combined with the UCI slacking off(ie. not effectively administrating the Chicken’s whereabouts and give the riders to prepare for unannounced inspections).
Oh well, at least it isn’t as bad as ADD where Fuglsang a few years ago felt compelled to complain about being warned 24hours before unannounced tests(2 times out of 3 over two years) and that they only took urine tests(which were sent to a lab which doesn’t even do EPO tests).
Written interview with Fuglsang and videointerview (in Danish)
by OctaBech on Aug 16, 2009 7:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
CERA
I’m guessing it’s because CERA worked that much better than the other methods he was using – and, they believed CERA was undetectable, so they didn’t need to try to be careful about using it.
by gavia on Aug 15, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
while Majope's statement is clearly about Kohl, not Wiggo
and Drongo’s also seems to be, hope you don’t mind, either of you, if I preemptively point it out. Note: these statements are not pointed at Wiggo. No freakoutage, please.
by JFS_PGH on Aug 15, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What no
I only pointed out that Wiggo’s blood values were slightly going up during the Tour and asked how which degree the passport can allow such oddities before loosing its effect and worse, lose the audience’s faith in it.
It could also be asked how strict the margins should be, but it’s hardly the scenario.
by OctaBech on Aug 15, 2009 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I think you mean OctaBech's statement.
When we stand right next to each other, it’s much easier to tell us apart. ;-)
Throughout the stage all I kept on thinking was: ‘don’t finish second, you can’t finish second again’.--Heinrich Haussler
by majope on Aug 16, 2009 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
*It could also be asked how strict the margins should be, before hurting the sport.
): there seems to be a disconnection between what I want to write and what I actually type. Luckily the nice people here are forgiving. :D
by OctaBech on Aug 16, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yikes
an important story I hate to say.
Always new ways to beat the system. Hate it
Moo
by Willj on Aug 16, 2009 5:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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