Armstrong Tour blood values blah blah blah
This seems kind of specious to me but the comments are kind of funny, "either doping or pooping his pants" was a highlight. Hmm, strange that there's not already a post up, perhaps people commented on it in one of the other threads? If so, sorry, I've been running around all day. Or perhaps it's all a hoax? I was recently taken in by a hoax, damn I felt like an idiot. Vagabundo!
5 months ago
plinytheelder
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Other experts should weigh in before this is anything.
The interesting thing is that the same expert commented on Wiggins values too. There he also made a note that Wiggins had a rise in heamoglobin values when there should be a drop. He then said that it was noteworthy but it didn’t necessarily mean that much.
I don’t know if the differences in the two cases are that significant ( I think they mention of a rise in hematocrit as well) or if the journo just presenting the quotes to make the one case more suspicious than the other?
Danish DR1 TV (the original source of the story) are pretty zealous in their doping-reporting sometimes. Not un-serious but they have been criticized for being a bit far reaching in their accusations. That’s why I’d like comments on this from others before giving it too much weight. Since this is about LA I think we can safely assume there will be more news on this.
by Jens on Sep 3, 2009 2:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the local knowledge! In any case I’m sure Armstrong will be tweeting about it soon – or maybe he’ll wait to see if anyone else picks up the story, it just doesn’t seem like a huge story to me. Who knows, maybe I’m wrong.
According to today’s tweet he was woken up before 7 by the anti-doping people…wow, if it was me I’d probably get a 2-year ban for not letting them in before 9.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Sep 3, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Jens Chr. Jung sometimes "seeks" for a story but this is one
Wiggins had a minor rise in hemaglobin in the Tour – suspicious, but it dropped quickly and ended being well beneath what he started with.
I’m not a huge Armstrong-hater but looking at his numbers, this is the most obvious doper I have ever seen. Mind you, the numbers are quite close to those of Michael Rasmussen in the 2007 Tour, actually almost the same.
Armstrong’s hemaglobin at the end of the Tour is higher than at the start at rises suddenly several times – just as his hematocrit. His reticulocytes rises and falls in the Tour – why would they fall under an extreme like the Tour when you would be supposed to produce more blood – and why would it then rise again? This is so obvious that I can’t believe Livestrong didn’t hold the results back! His off-score (relation between reticulocytes and hemaglobin, helping to prove autologous blood doping and EPO) rises from 73 to 112 from the Giro-end to mid-June – Giro has some of the explanation but his hemaglobin goes up to 16, absolutely off-scale when his highest hemaglobin-number until then was from December, there being 15,4.
What seals the deal for me is first of all that all CSC-riders in the Tour 2007 had serious drops in both HB and HCT from Tour-start to end. Ivan Basso went from 44% to 39,5% from Giro-start to end. Wiggins dropped at least one point in HB. Armstrong, nonetheless, rises in both. Nail in the cuffin being that Armstrong’s hemaglobin dropped from 14,8 to 13 and his HCT from 43,5% to 38,2% from Giro-start to the 31th May, end of the Giro.
Ladies and gentlemen, Armstrong doped.
by Forstoppelse on Sep 3, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's about dehydration, more generally, no?
Shouldn’t change the relative percentage of the different cell types, should it, unless there’s also an infection in play? (I’m not saying this in an Armstrong-specific sense, I’m looking for general medical info.) RE vaues from the tour, am I wrong to remember some talk of a 12 hour intestinal bug going around? If so the alternative explanation isn’t as silly as it might otherwise be.
Personal reaction? How nuts would it be to come back to prove that you can ride clean under stringent new doping tests, and then cheat? But that takes us back where we started. Either he’s clean now, or he’s a seriously twisted puppy. Or both.
by JFS_PGH on Sep 3, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beet root juice! :)
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Sep 3, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Norwegian expert says he's clean
In Dagbladet. Nothing from Sweden yet.
Staring at the swim team gets you killed by a gang of dancing ninja men who know how to twirl.
by TheFigurehead on Sep 3, 2009 10:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh, please, no
No, it’s not because he’s Norwegian but that guy is anything but an expert. First of all, the blood-values of sportsmen in sports like cycling and marathon is lower because they do extreme sports which destroys the body and, therefore, the red blood cells. A normal, sometimes-exercising man’s hematocrit is usually around 48-50% where a professional cyclist’s should be in lower end of the 40’s. It’s not the numbers that’s in focus here, it’s the development, the fluctuation – and that’s where Armstrong goes down and goes down hard.
by Forstoppelse on Sep 3, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since you're an anonymous guy on the internet
I have to assume that you’re the real expert and that the professor in the transfusion medicine is the fake expert.
Staring at the swim team gets you killed by a gang of dancing ninja men who know how to twirl.
by TheFigurehead on Sep 3, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you can't "unmask"
it would be nice to have a bit of info / bona fides, if you have a documented background in this stuff (you do SOUND authoritative). Alternatively, citations or documentation are always welcome.
Please don’t take offense, I don’t mean to suggest that anyone has to be a specialist to have an opinion! Only, it might be an opportunity lost. Each of us knows what we know, but our backgrounds and reliability are quite mysterious to everyone else.
by JFS_PGH on Sep 3, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who am I - I'm just a 15 year old boy...
Still, I’ve read a lot about it and the Norwegian guy hasn’t understood that it’s not in the numbers’ values but in it’s developments over time and in relation to what exercise the athlete is doing, that’s the science of the blood passport. I was a little over-heated when I wrote what I did earlier but I just had this urge to yell out how close to the feces of a bull this was. I am not an expert and he may be, in some other area, but not in this.
To JFS, I have some home work (loads) to do but Google Jakob Mørkebjerg and Rasmus Damsgaard, maybe Bo Belhage, and you’ll some documents from them on the topic of a Tour-rider’s body’s reaction to the Tour – and how a clean rider should react. I may be able to find them later tonight.
by Forstoppelse on Sep 3, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're writing skills are damn impressive.. Jealous!
But after seen the ‘evidence’ it seems like a clear case. But let’s wait for real authorities to see what they found. It’s almost always a little more nuanced than it seems.
by Frinking on Sep 3, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the connection between the expert and the expert statement is not totally transparent.
I do accept that people in a field can get tunnel vision, and stick to a static criterion when facing longitudinal data, where the static criteria do not, strictly, apply. Experts are not, sadly, exempt. However, it is also quite common for experts to give some introductory statements followed by a detailed explanation…and for reporters’ eyes to glaze over between the two sections. Result? The reporters give the take-home from the detailed comments, but they only include the introductory statements as “explanation.” Or the editor decides that the two parts are repetitive, and hacks away the logically-essential bits. Having seen this process in action, I don’t want to assume that it is the expert who is confused.
And yes, you do write well. For any age. I look forward to those links.
by JFS_PGH on Sep 5, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW
I think Forstoppelse’s point about the Norwegian is well taken. I don’t doubt he’s an expert, but it seems to me (admittedly with ridiculous reliance on google translate & its perpetual flummoxedness about Scandinavian syntax) he’s maybe not an expert in quite the right thing.
by civetta on Sep 5, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
diarrhea
Maybe we should compare these numbers with Boonen’s, since he had diarrhea.
by ant1 on Sep 3, 2009 11:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
and he wasn't the only one, right?
Look, if there’s one personal detail that Lance might not actually tweet about, it’d be a few hours spent crapping his guts out. Not out of a sense of delicacy, perhaps, but because exposing weakness is a tactical no-no. And he certainly does look less-than-fully-hydrated at times.
But yeah, what did Boonen’s values look like?
by JFS_PGH on Sep 3, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there's some more info
including comparative values on the daily peloton forum.
linky.
The similarity to Rasmussen is disquieting. As are the Reticulycyte numbers. Which I cannot spell.
by gavia on Sep 3, 2009 12:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well.. If they are really quite similair.
Than we have to get statements of people. They were really very clear forward by Rasmussen
by Frinking on Sep 3, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting that his Tour numbers are so different from his Giro numbers
At the Giro, I thought Armstrong looked pretty human, about what you’d expect from a world-class athlete a few years past his peak.
At the Tour, he looked a lot more like the Armstrong of five years ago.
by Tifosa on Sep 3, 2009 1:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sure he was better at TdF than at the Giro...
but I only saw a few moments of him looking like he did 5 years ago. His upper body muscle mass is still a bit more than in his winning years ( that’s from high tech photo analysis a.k.a. purely visual observation). The struggle was more apparent in the climbing stages too. His power looked very good, but his endurance was not as good. I know little about the numbers to comment.
And hey down there, pass the popcorn.
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Sep 3, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ursula grabs a bag of popcorn
Okay. Proceed.
by ursula on Sep 3, 2009 3:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I hope you're here for the train wreck...
… because District 9 is showing on the other thread.
"Jens! is my favorite rider. I love watching him handing out plates of hot, steaming suffer!" - Mahatma Gandhi
by crashdan on Sep 3, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So if this story dies on the vine?
Does that mean it was never a story, or that it was too much of a story ?
Still waiting to see any of the mainstream media pick up on this, even to make a reference to it.
And nothing on that tweeter thing that everyone seems to talk about either.
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
by muk on Sep 3, 2009 6:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
well a tweet's up now
Armstrong:
How do I say “ssdd” in Danish?
(I assume this means “same shit different day”?) But yeah, interesting that no one seems to have picked this up – seems strange to me – but looks like it might just die away…?
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Sep 3, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same Shit Different Day
perfect phrase to describe Johan Bruyneel tweets
"On a personal level, I have never had admiration for him and I never will"
~AC about LA, me about Johan "drama queen" Bruyneel
by Phil H. on Sep 3, 2009 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh I don’t know, I have to say that
The way we see the problem is the problem.
and
We all need an education in the obvious. (We simply need to be reminded of things we already know).
are deeply inspiring to me in similar, yet different ways.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Sep 3, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Life changing for ya pliny?
"On a personal level, I have never had admiration for him and I never will"
~AC about LA, me about Johan "drama queen" Bruyneel
by Phil H. on Sep 4, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't know...
that second quote seems rather vague…
reminds me of a t-shirt i keep threatening to have made up for hubby: “okay, so point out the obvious”
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Sep 4, 2009 4:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm thinking
this is a complicated technical question basically. Anyone who wants to pursue the story is bound to want to do their homework (or have some medical experts do their homework for them) before they run with the story.
Lances lawyers will be coming for you so you better know what you’re saying.
by Jens on Sep 4, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tuttobiciweb
has the story now. They credit the story to Sky Sport 24, which I think is a tv channel.
by Tifosa on Sep 4, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
one of the journos
on the Twit said they were reluctant to pick up the story out of legal concerns.
by gavia on Sep 4, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only a single Danish media has actually followed this story since the first story some days ago
Everybody, absolutely every bigger sports media is keeping totally quiet about this. No-one has Ashenden or Catlin or Damsgaard or McQuaid or Gripper in talks about this. It’s kinda’ tragi-comic.
To give an idea of the sudden change in Armstrong’s values after the Giro, some Cyclingnews-forum guy has made this: http://i26.tinypic.com/2qnab02.jpg – Notice the sudden jump (just look at the off-score, the HCT-numbers need a smaller scale) and that his Tour-off-score is significantly over his off-season and Spring-baseline. What we really need is some numbers between the broken collarbone and the start of the Giro. There has to be some (Showergate…) but we can’t see any tests from the 11th of March to the 30th if April – that is a hell of a long time. More over, we need tests between the Giro-end and the mid-June test that reveals an enormous jump in almost everything.
Comparing with how much both Armstrong’s and Basso’s numbers decreases during the Giro, I would think (I have no idea, though) that you would need severe dehydration to actually raise your blood values during a GT – a dehydration caused by, for example, diarrhea, which I think is Jakob Mørkeberg’s point (I still have no idea. Diarrhea is not my specialisation, Forstoppelse means constipation). Looking at Armstrong’s Tour-numbers, he seems to be dehydrating after rest days and not dehydrating when in longer periods of racing, even in the first week of racing with it’s heat wave, time-trial, TTT, La-Grande-Motte and three mountain stages. We have a rest day and – woups – Armstrong poops his pants. The same pattern follows until and after the next rest day. Armstrong gets severely dehydrated on the last five days of the Tour and what was expected to be quite a drop in blood values is now quite a jump. The funny thing being that his reticulocytes doesn’t follow. A retic-percentage of 0.5-0.7 apparently makes his HB jump 0.5 percentage points in the last five days of the Tour – whereas a retic-percentage of 0.7-1.3 makes his HB drop 1.2 in 11 days of the mid-Giro. Why such a difference? Dehydration?
Much more can be written about his blood values with the pre- and early-season values also looking mysterious, especially remembering that his HCT of the 4th of February was edited from around 45.8 to 43.1. http://www.localcyclist.com/2009/09/a-tale-of-two-cyclists/ – Some thorough explanation, looks like. I haven’t read it yet and it could be saying that I am writing nonsense here but I don’t think I am completely out-of-bounds.
This post is going long so I might just continue for some lines. To end it, I don’t think UCI will go on with this – Armstrong is too important. This even with me being a UCI-fanboy. They could very well win this case, though, a great chance if they retest Rasmussen’s 2007 Tour-tests for DynEPO (he was tested positive with a prototype-test) – knowing that Rasmussen’s blood values are so close to Armstrong’s. We need the blood passport for exactly this.
by Forstoppelse on Sep 5, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This sure looks like a careful bit of analysis.
It would be nice to see it in the context of other tour riders (same course, same weather).
by JFS_PGH on Sep 5, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you ever need a college-entrance writing sample . . .
this one would do.
by R Mc on Sep 5, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+
it’s not even in his native language. give ’im the degree already. no need for college.
by yeehoo on Sep 5, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you - but most Danes at my age are quite good at writing English
Plus, we all speak good English. Half my class got A+ at the English exams this year. The most important reason, I think, is that we only get subtitled and not dubbed TV and film.
by Forstoppelse on Sep 5, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We get that, too
Not all of us speakana de good English, though.
by tedvdw on Sep 5, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My entire French A-level class bar one got As
but I don’t think a single one of us could truly speak a word of it, not properly anyway. However in truth I probably did (at that point) write it quite well. Not altogether like that though…
by civetta on Sep 5, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A might be the default grade in the US school system, but that's probably not the case in Denmark.
It’s certainly not the case in Norway, unless things have changed a lot since I went to school.
by samb on Sep 7, 2009 2:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
forget the English
it’s the plausible grasp of the data that’s the impressive thing
by civetta on Sep 5, 2009 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
see, I wanted to say that, or say that he should get extra credit in a course
but I feared being patronizing. Given that I was ready to assume he was a Ph.D. or M.D., I mean, before he decided to unmask.
by JFS_PGH on Sep 5, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Having no qualifications to offer an opinion...
…I simply want to say, “holy shit please let this be nothing.”
I really truly do not want to contemplate the consequences of this being something, for the sport, not Armstrong.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
by Ed K on Sep 3, 2009 8:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
what would it mean for the sport?
Another cyclist dopes? Sun rises, water wet, etc.
It would damage the shit out the Armstrong brand*, but – as has maybe been discussed once or twice – Armstrong isn’t the sport.
*Which is why I’m extraordinarily skeptical about any claims of Armstrong doping (this time around). Too much to lose.
by Sui Juris on Sep 4, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it would mean more than that, especially in North America, where, in a certain sense, Armstrong is the sport. I hate to say it because I’m not his biggest fan, but I think if Armstrong were caught doping (1999 notwithstanding) it would have huge ramifications for the sport. I think the sport would lose most non hardcore fans for the next 20 years. For them, Armstrong is their one hope that you can be clean in the sport and still win. People have so much invested into the guy, it’s incredible – in my view, there’d be a huge backlash against the entire sport.
Who knows, maybe it would have a “cleansing” effect, I hate that word, but maybe people would get over their hero complex and start looking at these guys as real people. But I do think there would be enormous consequences for cycling, though perhaps less so in those few countries where it’s really part of the culture.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Sep 4, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Says it all
(1999 notwithstanding)
In the eyes of some (many?) he already has an asterix against his name
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
by muk on Sep 4, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the eyes of a subset of "cycling fans in general,"
as opposed to another subset of “cycling fans in general” plus a large majority of the large number who are “cycling fans via Armstrong.”
by JFS_PGH on Sep 5, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is more or less what I had in mind...
…for European fans, or informed Non-European fans, not a big deal, as Sui says. But given how much of the support that comes, esp. in North America, depends on casual appreciation and publicity (and we know how much of that LA generates) then yeah, damaging his brand would be a real thing, and not a good one.
You see how calm Vaughters is? That’s because he’s really one giant seething ball of Evil inside. With like, extra Evil.
by Ed K on Sep 4, 2009 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not much to lose
if he knows they can’t nail him for it. Suspicious numbers, he can dismiss as witch-hunting by foreign journalist and be confident that his fans and followers will believe him. I suppose he may also believe that he can beat a positive test in the court of public opinion, too, if it came to that. He seems to have a lot of confidence in his ability to shape public opinion and influence the media’s portrayal of him.
by gavia on Sep 4, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doubt he'd win court of public opinion.
As a “fairly” normal fan, I sit on the fence like so many I know do. His story is unparalleled in the sport and I admire his freakish talent. I cheer for him now, but give me a positive during this comeback and I’ll turn on him like a rabid dog, as I think many would.
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Sep 4, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, fair enough
I’m not really sure what public opinion would do, overall. It’s more that I think he may believe he could overcome a positive, not that he actually could if that makes sense. Which it might not. Gak, too much writing this week!
by gavia on Sep 4, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you make sense gav, no worries
even if sminer also makes sense
by yeehoo on Sep 5, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it would more or less take
video of him tranfusing and talking about it for the major public opinion to turn against him.Anything short of that would be spun sufficiently to create enough amount of uncertainty for him to keep a large fanbase.
by Jens on Sep 4, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well put
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Sep 4, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
his spin mastery and game face are unparalleled.
If he says, “the values are on my site because I have nothing to hide,” who’s going to call him on the logical fallacy?
The other problem: we can say what blood values mean, and what they do. But we’re always extrapolating from the general case to the “freak of nature” case. We start with “people in general,” then “endurance athletes in general” then “top-tier cyclists in general”…but if we mentally accept that some people are freaks of nature, what do we do when their bodies violate the “rules”?
This comes up all the time with female athletes who have some biochemically or genetically “male” features. It does not come up so much with the male athletes. Yet there ARE genetic differences. And life-history differences. Comparing Armstrong to armstrong may be the strongest argument we can make (that’s the point of the blood passport).
But we still have a problem deciding how much of an “unprecedented” jump in RBC’s is truly unprecedented. And how much of a mismatch between reticulocytes levels and hemoglobin levels is truly unprecedented. Because, like a “jury of peers,” a meaningful precedent is one that’s set by people who are biologically similar to you. I think Armstrong would be safe in public opinion by simply insisting that there’s no correct peer group!
by JFS_PGH on Sep 5, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Public Opinion is one thing
But could the race organizers really still invite him to races if a genuine cloud was over his head ?
I may be taking this to the extreme, but could Team Radio Shack end up not needing too many international flights next year?
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
by muk on Sep 4, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Over what is being reported right now?
Hardly. I doubt the race organizers know much more than I do about these numbers and what makes them move around. Remember that we are a hyper-focused on the sport group. There are no clouds yet.
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Sep 4, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ursula reaches for some Milk Duds
This thread is gonna go straight to my hips.
by ursula on Sep 4, 2009 4:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Astana/Damsgaard responds
VeloNews
Damsgaard mostly pointing out the alternative explanations and that you cannot make conclusions from the data.
Factually this is of course correct and he makes a note that these kinds of speculation are unfair to the riders because the scientific evidence isn’t conclusive enough and riders have no way of defending against it.
Two things don’t really sit right with me. Firstly, while it’s perfectly fine to change ones opinion in light of more information (and it seems this is what Damsgaard has done), doing so has some consequences. He has had no qualms about drawing conclusions like this before as the Rasmussen passport-case proves. So if he now has changed his tune he would do well to make an apology to those he has scoffed at before for critizising him when he made accusations of the nature he is now against.
Secondly you have to once more marvel at the quality of work at VN. They have made no real effort to look into the original story . They are actually citing a tabloid-paper rehash of a newsagency report of the original story on danish TV. That is just one step away from getting it from the IFP. WTF? Is there any way you could be less careful of the work you put out?
by Jens on Sep 5, 2009 2:52 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Also, the athletes are choosing to make these details public
If that’s going to be meaningful, then people need to be able to say if they look fishy
by William H on Sep 5, 2009 5:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Damsgaard’s got some ’splainin to do. “no scientifically accepted method,” “merely speculating,” “circumstantial evidence constitute[s] a real threat to the individual athletes rule of law.” When did Damsgaard start channeling Howard Jacobs?
Velonews is a joke. The entertainment value of seeing their contortions as they try to bend ever-further over backward to avoid offending Armstrong is about the only value left at Velonews.
by Tifosa on Sep 5, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eating some Mike and Ike's now
When did Damsgaard start channeling Howard Jacobs?
Yeah, that’s a weird turn here. WTF?
by ursula on Sep 5, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not that I actually know who Howard Jacobs is...
…but I’d suggest a) since he was made to look rather daft over the CSC bike gift/losing his hospital job in slightly dubious circumstances business and b) since he was made to look even dafter not to mention not entirely accurate in his statements over the Astana/Gusev business.
However, the fact that there is no consensus between “experts” is one of the major pitfalls in this whole area, isn’t it?
by civetta on Sep 5, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus
what precisely is the relationship between Damsgaard & Astana’s internal testing programme (if any…) these days? & what is the relationship between that programme (again, if any) & Armstrong? That was always unclear, even down to when Armstrong was supposedly hiring Don Caitlin to do it all independently…
by civetta on Sep 5, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah you got me jones'n for something I haven't had in a long time.
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Sep 5, 2009 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That being Mike and Ike's
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Sep 5, 2009 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
do you chew them up,
or dismantle the tangy outer layer from the jellied center with your tongue? (Yeah, I’m messing with your jones.)
by JFS_PGH on Sep 5, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am a dismantler of many food items
But I prefer to chew Mike and Ike’s
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Sep 5, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moving on to more concrete doping news...
How about the Bernard Khol working with investigators ongoing saga? New post perhaps anyone?
No horn, watch for finger.
by sminer on Sep 5, 2009 9:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Is there any news on this?
Last I heard was from a couple of months ago- Kohl was cooperating with investigators.
I did a google news story and didn’t find anything recent, do you have another source?
by LurkerMcLurkerson on Sep 7, 2009 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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