Phat Pat Speaks: Once WADA stops draggining its feet, we'll decide on Contador within hours
by fmk on Nov 2, 2010 9:10 AM EDT
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PrintOur Glorious Leader has again spoken. A Contador decision is imminent, once WADA stops dragging its feet: "We’re waiting for WADA to come back to us with a report. As soon as we get that, we’ll take decisions within hours."
The report he's waiting for WADA to produce seems to be on how angel dust got into Contador's system: ""We’re working with WADA. Our scientific people and their scientific people are working together to try to determine how the Clenbuterol got in the system."
Which some might find surprising. Surely all the UCI has to prove is that there was Clen in Contador's system? It's up to Contador to prove it came from tainted meat. On the tainted meat argument, VeloNation has some interestng stats:
in tests carried out in Europe between 2008 and 2009, only one out of 83,203 animal samples was positive for the substance. During the same period, Spain tested 19,431 samples and no traces were found. Clenbuterol was banned by the European Union since 1996.
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I like what he says about pushing for 4 year bans
Glad to hear he is not pleased about DiLuca’s case.
If Contador doesn’t get a year minimum…
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
If Contador doesn’t get a year minimum…
… there’ll be protests.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
I was thinking something less peaceful
more postal.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
This stat means nothing....
in tests carried out in Europe between 2008 and 2009, only one out of 83,203 animal samples was positive for the substance. During the same period, Spain tested 19,431 samples and no traces were found. Clenbuterol was banned by the European Union since 1996
The Spanish health federation was already interviewed about that and they confirmed that the tests they do for Clenbuterol would never pick up 50picograms. There test is much less sensitive ….like 100 times or 1000 times less sensitive.
Somebody help me out here, I cannot find the link. I know one of you probably has it. It was in El Pais.
How much clen needs to be in a cow for you to trace postve at 50pcograms? Do the math …
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Nov 3, 2010 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't really know
but for anyone trying to find an answer: the figure was actually 50 picogram per millilitre, ie. concentration not mass. I also read that it was not a quantitive but qualitative analysis and the resulting figure was an estimation based on the researchers’ experience with this kind of analysis. So, no idea about the statistical error. “Two sigma” might easily be a factor 2.
It doesn't answer your question but
(as a guide) I can confirm that if you (legally) treat a racehorse with Ventipulmin (Clenbuterol) then you cannot race for at least seven days or will test positive. (Adding that is the current recommended withdrawal period, but latest research suggests withdrawal period longer for a competition horse, usual to leave 8 or 9 days now to be safe)
And back in the day if you treated cattle with Ventipulmin or similar then you shouldn’t slaughter it for food consumption for at least 28 days.
Whether the stat means anything or not
it’s the fact that the drug has been banned for some time. I doubt they are micro-dosing their cows with a banned substance.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Do the Authorities do random testing on living cattle? Or dead animals that have been selected by ranchers for the market.
The recent bust on Tenerife suggests that clenbuterol finds it’s way into Spain. Would the cattle breeder who was implicated plan on selling to athlete’s for extra income? How about the veterinarians? As I understand it clenbuterol can be supplied in the feed, that isn’t a very scientific way of administering it and could result in micro doses and “overdoses”.
In hope that Q wasn't directed towards me
I’m the King of Speculation, zero proof.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
or . . .
(oops, I meant to oppose that to a monarchic option, not make a current political observation).
Then why aren't you speculatin' on who was supposed to score the clen before the Tenerife bust?
I’m not trying to make any determination of guilt or innocence. (I am finding too many others falsely believe they are qualified to do that.) I don’t think that the “facts” as they have been presented mesh with reality.
I believe I am unqualified.
But given the choice between blood doping and contaminated meat as a couple of possibilities for the clen positive… I’ve made my determination of guilt, I hope he gets his two years.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Have you considered the possibility that he got the clen consuming cattle feed?
King of Speculation, you? Zero proof.
The new trail mix, huh? Yum.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
That's the ticket!
Or maybe they were driving a herd of cattle through a stand of wild clenbuterol and had to stop for the night. Stuff grows like weeds in parts of the Iberian penninsula. And then one of the cows came up lame so they sent that one to a local butcher shop where Contador’s operatives were lying in wait for the freshest meat. Normally they travel for a few more days before they get to market so there isn’t any residuals.
+1
I have to weigh in on a clen post :)
Two other points sorry for repeating this stuff.
The cattle has to have serious clen contamination to get any urine contamination from some steak (Ramos) as it concentrates in Liver and offal maybe Bert and the Boys had Haggis
Where are all the other clen positives 60000 Wada test usual 60-70 pos from clen.
This is all kind of irrelevant to post as A&B positive=sanction 2years or believe Berts BS good reasons =1 year
"More accurately, the principle of Occam’s Razor recommends selecting the competing hypothesis that makes the fewest new assumptions"
I am sorry to say that I am a little disappointed
Clenbuterol is not totally forbidden in EU, but have limits to how much is allowed to be in the meat, as can be read here in English and here in Danish. This information came from JFS_PGH in some other threads regarding this subject, and also information about how many cows/cattle are slaughtered in EU in a year. The 89.000 tested is but a very small part of the total.
I am so tired of facts that are not correct being repeated again and again in all sorts of media and regarding all sorts of events, this is not about Contador clean or dirty, but about me being so tired of what I see as manipulation of people. I see it in a lot of cases, repeat the same thing again and again and people start to take it as a fact even if it is not, and journalist do not examine if the statement is true or false or something in between, they just repeat and repeat.
One of the reason I like the Cafe so much is that normally the info and debate here are much more balanced and informative than what you read in the news, but recently I have had a feeling that that is not so much so anymore and that makes me sad and a little disappointed.
by LittleOldLady on Nov 2, 2010 11:01 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Comment of the year nomination.
One of the reason I like the Cafe so much is that normally the info and debate here are much more balanced and informative than what you read in the news . . .
And yes she does go on to say
but recently I have had a feeling that that is not so much so anymore and that makes me sad and a little disappointed.
But I’d like to think we could erase that part with a little effort.
Thank You LittleOldLady
(smile) I still have faith in the Cafe
just needed to vent my general frustration.
by LittleOldLady on Nov 2, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I see your point
But some in the media are promoting Bert as the honest racer who ate the steak…..
Others are thinking that he is a cheat that transfused a bit of left over clen …
which facts are real “facts”?
Surely his positives are “facts”. His explanation for it looks as if he has no evidence and everything else is conjecture.
I feel that the the posts on Contador have been excellent in that all possibilities have been explored re various expert views and references, commentators, reporters and EU docs. Far more detailed way than any other forum or media outlet. Even though I have my own bias it has been great to have it challenged (every time I comment or post :) ) and occasionally supported.
"More accurately, the principle of Occam’s Razor recommends selecting the competing hypothesis that makes the fewest new assumptions"
The 89.000 tested is but a very small part of the total.
You are familiar with the concept of statistical sampling, aren’t you? Or do you believe that only by testing the whole population can you draw conclusions?
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Yes I am familiar with the concept of statistical sampling, are you?
Do you know how they chose the test samples, I don’t.
by LittleOldLady on Nov 3, 2010 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t let your ignorance hold you back.
I suppose you could try visiting here to remedy it.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Nov 3, 2010 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions
This is way over the line, tone-wise.
I dealt with this issue earlier, BTW, including addressing the issue of statistical sampling. And I’ve been clicking around on the page that you linked, and have so far not bumped into the sampling procedure (in terms of timing, geography, randomness, number of samples per sampled carcass, etc.) Mind pointing that stuff out a bit more explicitly, if you did happen to find it?
Sadly the search function is down, but when it’s back up, a search on carcass or veal (or both) ± my screen name ought to bring up the previous thread where I hashed this for a while.
Yeah, loosen up that Black Belt Mr. Six Sigma.
It has been stated repeatedly that the methodology used in testing all 89.000 of the ex-Team Milram Fan Club Members were in no way equal, or even close to what was used for the first time ever on AC.
So the data is totally worthless for this discussion; and is in fact nothing more then a BS distraction tool possibly used to pseudo-validate the test performed on AC.
To go even further, it has never been stated the Reliability & Repeatability of this new test in the lab that performed it, or any other WADA certified labs.
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
Heh.
No, it’s not our fault there’s no decision. It’s WADA’s fault. Really, it is! It is!
Methinks he doth protesteth too mucheth.
Pat's wait is fair
You must ensure that the cheque will clear :)
"More accurately, the principle of Occam’s Razor recommends selecting the competing hypothesis that makes the fewest new assumptions"
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