techs/mechs help

by R Mc on Feb 6, 2010 5:17 PM EST

I have a review of a sram force group due soon.

Say you're a fairly active rider--especially Shimano.Campy riders--whaddya wanna know when you read a review of stuff?

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DA rider now, looking to move over to SRAM

How’s the comparison of shifting response and ergonomics of the brake hoods?

"Woof, woof, woof! That's my other dog imitation."

by Drew Davis on Feb 6, 2010 6:37 PM EST reply actions

I think that's really it.

That, and how easy it is to avoid upshifting when you want to downshift.

by Ed K on Feb 6, 2010 7:21 PM EST up reply actions

shifting response: for me, the rear-derailleur up-shifts between old sram (I had 1st gen rival) and shimano were comparable—although new (7900) is faster (and the electronic stuff . . . is pretty cool—although I HAVE seen it freak out on a friend’s bike towards the end of a 4 hour ride). The new sram stuff is much faster—so much faster that it took me a good part of a ride before I stopped shifting up two cogs instead of one. (As for only using one shift lever—this took about two-hundred yards to figure out . . .)

Down-shifts are where I think sram wins: quick and super-intuittive.

Front derailleur performance: sram has improved, but still requires careful attention to set-up. Shimano electric blows everyone away with front der. performance.

Ergonomics: It looks to me like Shimano has moved more towards the sram/campy design for the electronic stuff, but there is a definite difference between da and sram: da levers work more like bar ends—they stick more up, whilst sram does not. Check out the pictures of pro bikes and see if you can spot this. I don’t think either one are uncomfortable—especially compared to the old-school shimano600 brake levers on my beater-bike.

Thanks for the question . . .

by R Mc on Feb 6, 2010 7:28 PM EST up reply actions

How often does stuff need to be tweaked?

I have heard, but have no verification, that SRAM stuff is a little pickier, I assume due to different pull ratios in the levers (which may or may not be true in the road stuff, just the mtb stuff).

by Douglas Ansel on Feb 6, 2010 9:16 PM EST reply actions

not often

I have had my Red group since the spring. I’ve tweaked it once or twice, but that could be due to switching cassettes. I’ve run both DA and SRAM cassettes.

by johnw on Feb 6, 2010 9:19 PM EST up reply actions

I have been getting pissed at my SRAM X.9...I have to adjust it every month or so because it gets out of whack.

I won’t be making the leap to SRAM any time soon on my road bike, I am quite happy with my old DA 7800.

by Vlaanderen90 on Feb 6, 2010 10:58 PM EST up reply actions

I would seriously consider SRAM...

…but given that the DA7800 I have now would have been astronomically beyond my means except for a very generous friend who sold it to me for peanuts, well, I’m not even thinking about the possibility of not liking it.

I think DA 7800 will be much like downtube friction shifters were, don’t ride anything else until you can afford something else, in case you like it.

by Ed K on Feb 6, 2010 11:18 PM EST up reply actions

SRAM has a 1:1 pull ratio so you should rarely need to adjust it.

The 1:1 ratio helps out a lot when the cables get dirty.

Shimano has a 1:2 pull ratio requiring more adjustment because one unit on the cable equals two units of derailleur movement. So any minor cable stretch is much more significant than SRAM.

I like the front derailleur set up on SRAM because I don’t have to use as much tension on the cable to get it adjusted right. No need for a barrel adjuster.

by brunopitton on Feb 7, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions

Barrel adjusters?

never…

by Peter Fontecchio on Feb 8, 2010 6:46 PM EST up reply actions

Have both

Love the SRAM Red. The rear shifting is great. To me the front is better on the DA7800. But you can’t beat the price. SRAM is an amazing value.

The Red hoods are nice. I haven’t ridden 7900 so I can’t compare to that.

And to reinforce R Mc’s comment, jumping between the two (DA and Red) is no problem.

by johnw on Feb 6, 2010 9:16 PM EST reply actions

From my short experience

I like the new 7900/6700 shimano hoods slightly more than the SRAM ones. Then again, I’ve only done laps around a parking lot with either of them.

by Douglas Ansel on Feb 6, 2010 11:08 PM EST up reply actions

Howz the reach on the brake levers?

Ie, from the drops, is the SRAM closer, farther away, or about the same as Campag or Shimano on your bars?

And yes, the shape of the hoods is always one I want to know.

For women, we always are looking at the reach on the levers, how hard they are to throw, and the shape of the hoods for small hands.

I like to know shifting accuracy, esp. front ders.

by Jen See on Feb 7, 2010 12:01 AM EST reply actions

The SRAM Brake & Shift Lever reach are independently adjustable.
I happen to think this is a key benefit not just for women.

by Ryan_Liles on Feb 7, 2010 3:48 AM EST up reply actions

How does it compare to Red and Rival?

Having ridden both Red and Rival a lot, I would like to know how the new Force compares to both those groups?
With the previous generation it seemed that with Force you were getting the internals, chain, cassette, etc. of Rival with a few extra carbon bits. Thus if you wanted to go with SRAM you should go Rival or Red.
Has the improvement to Force put it similarly close to Red? (Such that Red may no longer be worth the extra money) Or has Force found it’s place in the SRAM road line?

by CollegiateCyclingRocks on Feb 7, 2010 3:12 AM EST reply actions

How is it with non-genuine parts?

I had Red shifters and Force derailleurs on my bike 2 years ago, and had trouble getting reliable shifting when using Q-rings.
I’ve been riding about a year with 7900 on one bike with a Stronglite 53 and Q-ring 36, and 6700 on the other with a Sugino 55 (no ramps) and FSA 39, and have never had shifting problems.

by z1 on Feb 7, 2010 5:35 AM EST reply actions

braking power?

by Peter Fontecchio on Feb 7, 2010 8:44 AM EST reply actions

thanks everybody

ya’ll made my task a bit easier.

One minor bit that I really like: the factory lube on the sram chains works great and lasts about 3 weeks—including getting rained on and going through wet stream crossings.

by R Mc on Feb 7, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions

How about . . . .

. . . you don’t do the standard BS testing that covers a few rides on random bikes already pre-built?

Why not start with first building up 2 identical frames that have been professionally inspected for their alignment.
Specifically from the Bottom Bracket to the Rear Wheel so as to assure the total Chainline is the same.
Then, build each Frameset up according to the provided instructions from Shimano & SRAM while making comments on that along the way as to how useful these instructions really are and how easy the build up process is.
*Note: Make sure to use the same handlebar so that lever reach can be compared; and also use the same wheel Brand & Model so braking can be compared also.

Next, ride the bikes a minimum of 1000 miles each in similar conditions.
While doing so, provide insight on how the product “settles in” and how much adjustments need to be made.

Also, during this time you can document the component wear.
Such as –
Chain Growth
Brake Pad Wear
Chainring finish abrasion and deformation.
Cassette finish abrasion and deformation
As well as any other finish issues, such as bolts rusting or whatever.

Now, if you do all that you’ll have 3-4 solid articles that actually provide valid information to the end user in some sort of actual quantifiable manner.

Maybe you could post this in a series online as you go, and then summarize your findings in the last article?

How’s that R MC?

by Ryan_Liles on Feb 7, 2010 10:21 PM EST reply actions

Well . . . it would be nice to be able to do such a comparison

but . . . getting identical frames for an article that would not be focused on evaluating the frame is probably a non-starter.

It’s getting to where installation videos seem to be supplanting some of the printed matter.

Thanks for mentioning the other wear factors—that’s measurable stuff that should be paid attention to.

I have a question specifically for you though: I distinctly recall reading somewhere (and I’ve searched unsuccessfully) that the first generation sram road stuff was designed for the rear wheel to be removed from the 3rd cog in. I have not been able to confirm that. Did I just make that up?

by R Mc on Feb 7, 2010 10:56 PM EST up reply actions

To your points -

1 – Two identical frames for cheap? Ebay
In truth, I’m sure there are quite a number of Product Managers who would be happy to help you with this.
I bet if you made 10 phone calls, you’d have this covered.

2 – I cannot stress to you how 100% wrong you are regarding videos.
So I’ll just provide you the link to the SRAM MY10 Tech Manual and all 92 pages of it!
There is a huge amount of information you can never find in Youtube videos.

3 – I seem to recall this was not a Standard Procedure, but rather a recomended ‘workaround’. I would strongly suggest you simply call the SRAM Customer Service as they are really good about answering these kind of questions.
Personally, I just pop the rear wheel in and out without any problems, though I can say the technique is a bit different then I use for Shimano, or Campy. All tree have a slightly different character with the wheel removal.

by Ryan_Liles on Feb 8, 2010 12:06 AM EST up reply actions

At the very least . . .

. . . please use the same gearing with the same handlebar make & model, as well as the same wheel make & model.
Oh, and the same pedals too!

So you can better quantify ergonomics, and actual function.

by Ryan_Liles on Feb 8, 2010 2:03 AM EST up reply actions

Thanks. this discussion helps a LOT.

You might have just motivated an e-mail discussion between me and my editor . . .

At any rate, I was actually planning more on comparing the new sram force to the original rival: basically trying to answer the question of how much performance improvement if any.

I can come close to identical set-ups (at least adjusted so that the derailleur gap under high and low cog is correct, etc) and identical bars and pedals on frames fitted with sram and shimano.

I really like being able to look at the full documentation . . .

But perhaps I was not clear in what I was trying to communicate: it seems to me as though end-users are starting to look towards videos as being their primary source of information.

That said, different companies seem to use different knowledge paradigms:for a couple of products, the best place to look for updated information is their discussion forums. Others produce videos, still others rely on print-based documentation.

So the point we’re bandying about is a good one these days: where should installers and end-users look for reliable product information (and where to go for customer service/support?)

Finally, coming from a guy who has ridden an old-school bike with old-school components in the last year . . . all of this new stuff—even the Tiagra on my son’s trek 1200, which he just absolutely thrashes—is much better (especially the brakes) than the old.

by R Mc on Feb 8, 2010 9:59 AM EST up reply actions

Not a representative sample....

But I’d like to know:

1) Ergonomics of hoods in regards to a static hand position on the levers, as well as ease of shift. It would be great to have a few people review with different hand sizes, as well as difference of ergonomics in shifting from the flats, hoods, and out of the saddle.

2) Installation specifics. Any proprietary tools needed on BB/cranks? Is the manual any good (or list other product sources of info that are helpful)? I agree with a lot Ryan’s comments above, but understand that the scope of the review depends on your audience.

3) Durability. I want to know if I can rebuild them and how much parts cost to rebuild (as well as how long the company makes the parts after releasing new models). Durability is quite important in my book – so many crappy, overpriced pieces of $#%& out there.

Personally, I’d pay money for a website/blog/magazine that takes the approach that Ryan outlined above in reviewing products. Not sure if that would be a good business model, since I think most people don’t give a damn about how to install the thing and if the testing methods have a grain of rigor in them. I don’t have tons of cash to drop on bike stuff, so when I buy something, I want to know hidden costs and the expected life of the product.

by nickz on Feb 8, 2010 7:33 PM EST reply actions

again, thanks

I won’t be able to do all of these things in a rigorous lab fashion.

But . . . because of a couple of semi-aces in the hole (long-term relationship with shop mechanics and long-term ridership of the components—chains and cassettes that you guys were asking about), I can provide pretty good information about that stuff.

Unfortunately, ergonomic fit winds up being a personal preference that’s hard to specify: what works for my hands and riding style might not for yours.

by R Mc on Feb 8, 2010 9:36 PM EST up reply actions

Providing you are using the same bar model for both builds, you can then actually measure the lever reach.
The difference between the Shimano and SRAM would be the same on any bar.

by Ryan_Liles on Feb 9, 2010 12:05 AM EST up reply actions