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That is wrong
Individual organisers shouldn’t have such powers, to exclude individual riders and by extension their teams, when those riders have served their suspensions.
Why not?
Staring at the swim team gets you killed by a gang of dancing ninja men who know how to twirl.
by TheFigurehead on Mar 19, 2010 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Would undermine the professional nature of organised cycling
Inevitably, other criteria than “is a unrepentant doper” will be used, like “has ever been lined to doping” or “I don’t like him”. No more job security for professional cyclists or their whole entourage.
I see your point, but...
I wonder how organisers can protect themselves from riders/teams that lack certain ‘professionalism’. I am for riders rights, but certain riders have EARNED their lack of trust. If it were my race, I wouldnt want him there either.
i agree
riders should have rights, but so should race organizers. finding the right balance is the tricky part.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
The right balance is tricky
And remember, last year the Giro gave a certain marquee rider another chance and look how he repayed them for that opportunity.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Job security in professional cycling?
I can’t see that it exists in any professional sport, by the very nature. Still, there are things that make some sports more insecure than other. Like sponsors that shy away because of doping.
Now, I am a bit of a cynic and if this make other riders to take a firmer stance against dopers I am all for it.
Staring at the swim team gets you killed by a gang of dancing ninja men who know how to twirl.
by TheFigurehead on Mar 19, 2010 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions
i agree.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
You're disappointed that I agree with Ted?
I think once someone has served their time, if they are not to be recidivists they have to be allowed back to do their job. rehabilitation is what it’s all about. i must admit, i feel this even more strongly with young ones like Ricco… doesn’t mean I’m a fan. It’s just about my idea of justice.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
I see your point but I think that organizations that own races on the Historic Calendar have a need to protect the products images.
The organizers of races on the Historic Calendar can set higher standards to protect the integrity of their races. Ricco only missed one Giro during his suspension and he admitted to doping during the race so I don’t think they are out of line telling him to go find somewhere else to race. Obviously they are having a struggle at the Giro as it was just last year that DiLuca almost won the race and then was found to be doping. Riding in some races should be considered a privilege that should be earned. For comparison: We can let our drunk drivers out of jail after they serve their sentence but do we want to give them back their license right away?
Bicycling is the nearest approximation I know to the flight of birds. Louis J. Helle, Jr.
well put
I agree to some extent with Ted. Blacklisting a rider who’s served a suspension isn’t kosher. But that’s not happening. What is happening is that races at the highest level aren’t inviting teams likely to bring riders just off doping suspensions to their races. I’m fine with that. I’m generally fine with one of the consequences of being caught doping turning out to be that you don’t get to just keep doing exactly as you were doing without having to take some time to re-establish your integrity when you return.
You abuse the trust of the sport and pollute the competition, you have to earn your way back to top level racing. I’m not sure there’s a damn thing wrong with that.
btw, part of why I like ted's 'sporting penalties' proposal...
…is actually that part of what’d likely happen is that teams which can’t compete without doping, and thus suffered the penalties, would likely also start to not be invited to races. That’s as strong a disincentive as I can think of in cycling.
So a 2-year suspension
is actually a 3-year suspension? And in that extra year, he has to prove his sincerity and rehabilitation, but how exactly? Because he won’t be invited to races.
No.
Not being invited to the Giro is not being prevented from racing. You’re acting as if not racing this one race is the same thing as not racing at all. And that’s hardly the case.
So some races are more equal than others?
I imagine other races would follow suit if some of them seemingly take the moral high ground.
Some races will invite teams with riders like ricco...
…some won’t. That’s up to the races. Any race where the start list is by invitation presumably isn’t obligated to invite anyone, except possibly protour races.
It’s up to the race organizers to decide what’s in the best interest of the race. And cheaters take upon themselves the real chance that race organizers might not want them. What the heck, seriously, is the problem here?
The same is true with teams
This is why Ricco is riding for a low level pro conti team and not Saxo or something. Ceramica was willing to make a gamble on a rider who is likely going to pull results for them, even if it sort of taints the integrity of the team. I dont blame saxo for not wanting the drama of Ricco, nor do I blame the Giro for not wanting his drama.
Yeah
I must say, as much as it may seem unfair that a team be seemingly excluded because of one rider, the organizers are well within their rights to do so. Not only that, but they can make a case that Ceramica are not a top team, and even on merit, may not warrant an invite. Reading into the comments is unavoidable, but I doubt that the only reason Ceramica doesn’t get a Giro invite is because Ricco is riding for them.
Further, this is broadly disproved by the facts.
Ricco is hardly the first rider treated this way, and the others have had plenty of invitations, even if some grand tours have said no for the year after the fact. Ricco will have a race program. I don’t think there’s any worry about that.
That won't happen because a Ricco is publicity..
Smaller races are happy to invite Ricco..
Totally agree with Fling dog.. And of course some courses are more equal..
Oh and lastly, yes.
Some races are more equal than others. Or did you think that the ronde van groene hardt (sp?) was the same as the ronde van vlandeern? There’s a hierarchy, pretty obviously. And the big races may well have a different set of priorities than the smaller. Some races will positively love the publicity that comes with ‘notorious doper returns to try to make his comeback.’
i think the difference between races is...
…their ability to draw teams. everyone wants to ride the tour. the tour of oman, on the other hand, might not be most teams’ number one goal for the season. teams that rely on the PT structure to bring them teams get more exposure in exchange for less freedom. races like the tour or the big classics don’t need the exposure the PT brings, so they’re free to pick and choose who gets to race.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
gotta agree with Ted, this seems like a de facto 3rd year
plus, luv that guy!
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Mar 20, 2010 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
He was only suspended for 20 months in the end, including two winters
he’s only missed one Giro during that time.
I have no issue with either of you are saying...
and the Giro in particular needs to take back the moral high ground. It still worries me though… the sentence seems to become elastic then… an extra year of penalties added to the suspension…
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Penalties...
…juridical suspension.
Consequences, race organizers are going to be skeptical of you for some time.
Cheating has penalties, and consequences. So what? Why is that a problem?
penalties and consequences...
well put.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
I would consider it more probation than an extension of the ban.
As others have pointed out, Ricco will continue to race elsewhere. But I don’t blame high-prestige events like the Giro for failing to invite him as soon as he’s back. I would imagine if he races clean this season, the prohibition will probably be eased next year.
It's fun to beat Cancellara--Edvald Boasson Hagen
I am a big fan of Podium Cafe
No other site that I know has forums on cycling that are able to agree or disagree with each other in such a respectful way. I am new here, but already have learned so much from reading different discussions. Thanks and bravo to who ever created this site.
That'd be Chris...
…and all the other contributors.
Welcome... I couldn't agree more...
Here i can voice doubts without fearing that I’ll be ridiculed or abused… and i still have so much to learn.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
why i stayed.
those two reasons: an incredibly respectful/knowledgable global forum and mature abuse (usually!).
Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania
There is nothing about Lebowski that should be considered mature.
Bicycling is the nearest approximation I know to the flight of birds. Louis J. Helle, Jr.
WTF
That is short for Wednesday, Thursday, Friday around here. Welcome.
Bicycling is the nearest approximation I know to the flight of birds. Louis J. Helle, Jr.
What are three days on which gav's Wednesday Session might appear, Alex?
It's fun to beat Cancellara--Edvald Boasson Hagen
by majope on Mar 19, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think Leap Years and Blue Moons are a part of that equation.
Bicycling is the nearest approximation I know to the flight of birds. Louis J. Helle, Jr.
Meh...
…the Foucauldian in me is skeptical of rehabilitation, a lot.
But you brought it here!
And on the valv.piti thread I said I don’t do him after 8pm..
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Hah! Foucault is on my hit list this week...
having just dragged my not entirely bright-eyed undergrads through an idea or three of his :)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
I teach Foucault all the time...
…but then only sometimes do I actually make them read Foucault.
Of course they must read him...
but for some of them it’s a Sysiphean task
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Well, sometimes its just easier to use MF as a handy guidebook...
…for syllabus construction.
Disappointed is the wrong word. Puzzled maybe?
An organizer should not be allowed to protect the image of her/his event from the doping pinata that is RR? I think that is wrong. Flying dog, Ed K and van Nugget have given good reasons for this above. Allowing dopers back into bike racing in general, and races like the Giro and the Tour especially, is not comparable to allowing thieves back into society. It is, especially in this case, akin to putting a convicted paedophile in charge of kindergarten on the day of his release from prison. Dopers destroy the sport. They destroy the chances of their competitors. They destroy the image of the events. Doping is economig crime. Doping is fraud. A convicted embezzler would not be able to go back to work in a bank. As u said, Ricco is young, he has a big portion (hopefully) of his life ahead of him. He has a lot of time to earn back some of the trust he so cynically jeopardized. I don’t want to see him on my TV screen riding seemingly effortlessly up a hill side in the Giro this season.
P.S: Thank you for teaching me a new word. Recidivism, that is. So, do we think think that RR will increase or decrease the recidivism rate for convicted dopers?
Teaching you a new word makes me proud...
your English is staggeringly good… and your reasoning puts me to shame. Ricco as recidivist… it’s hard to say, but I must admit he has to be high risk.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Before coming to this place I figured my English was OK. But here I learn how little i know.
Many great writers here. Hopefully I will be able to pick up a thing or three.
Well, you already write with flair, but a good writer is always willing to learn more..
so you’ll go a long way.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Now he really does feel feverish..
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
And your English is getting better all the time!
What was your native language again?
(/kidding—we are indeed lucky to have your lively and informative writing here!)
1974 is so long ago. Nearly thirty years.--Mark Cavendish
what. a. shame.
the one upside of having dicco (that’s what i’ll be calling him from now on. feel free to join me) in the giro was the non racing entertainment in provided. remember all the trash talk a couple years ago, about the kraut and the beachboy?
who would have thought that after talking crap about everyone in the peloton and giving cycling a bad name through doping that people would not be welcoming him back with open arms? you made your bed dicco (after kicking the mother of your child out of it), now lay in it.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
I applaud this decision
Let him show some humility and race an entire year (without getting busted) before he earns entrance into another Grand Tour. Truthfully I don’t feel sorry for this team either, they knew he was a lightning rod for controversy when they signed him and now they’re paying the consequences.
I'm curiously fascinated...
According to the preliminary start list, the Cobra will be up against the Chicken at Coppi e Bartali next week.
It's fun to beat Cancellara--Edvald Boasson Hagen
Well if i was a betting woman, Ricco would be where I'd put my money..
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
I think we really should start focusing our rage, wrath and ire at the person who really deserves it...
… the idiot that hands out the stupid Italian nick names.
I miss Paolo Bettini. That is all.
My personal feeling is that the relation is more like an ex-con
if you have a robbery conviction you may get a job in construction or warehousing but are unlikely to get work in a bank or driving an armored car.
Ricco can ride coppi e bartali but not san remo or the giro. Most smaller Italian races will take him he will earn a living and his sponsor will be rewarded for his success and the publicity he generates.
While the Giro will hopefully be inured from his possible recidivism.
'When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning' - Dr. Reiner Knizia
by bought with blood on Mar 19, 2010 1:11 PM EDT reply actions
A "modest" living.
And he can sell t-shirts to his personal “tifosi” out the boot of his Fiat before and after events to supplement his minimum wage racing income. I hope.
Was Basso able to ride the Giro his first year back from his suspension?
What about DiLuca? I don’t get the double standard here?
I think the Rossi-positive has everyone freaked
The italian stories I’ve read before the season have mostly been of the Basso type(repenting sinner welcomed back to achieve glorious thing for italian cycling and tifosi….) . Basically paving the way for a smooth return to business as usual.
The Rossi story blew a huge gaping hole in the credibility of that narrative.
Forgot one part
I absolutely believe RCS was planning on inviting Ceramica Flaminia (with Ricco) both to MSR and the Giro before the Rossi positive.
Yep
I think that was huge. Probably the most important thing, really. Also, there was a lot of bad press after that about Rossi, Riccò, and the whole ménage. I guess I can’t really blame the Giro organizers for wanting to steer clear of that particular disaster. Certainly, before the Rossi positive, the press was relatively friendly toward Riccò and most expected him to make the Giro start.
i think a double standard might be in play
maybe something to do with how liked a rider is? but i also think the fact that he’s on a small team has a lot to do with it. and both could be related. i would think a well liked rider would have an easier time coming back to a PT team than some dicco who talks 5hit about everyone, and parallelly would have an easier time being accepted back by bigger races.
there’s also a timing factor. maybe since basso came back, the general feeling towards dopers has changed some. people might be less willing to welcome back riders now that we’ve entered a “clean” post-festina, post-puerto, (post-whateverthenextonewillbe), era of cycling. (anybody believe that btw?)
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Difference is (with Basso)
Is that he kept his mouth shut in his time off from the sport, admitted he made a mistake (albeit for “attempted doping”) and promptly came back and put together some solid results in the run up to the Giro. Oh, and did I menton that Basso didn’t take great pleasure in burning as many bridges as possible when he was doping? The consensus seems to be that Basso is as well liked by his colleagues as Ricco was disliked. You reap what you sow.
Well..
Riccò is pretty well liked by the press. Or at least, he was treated sympathetically when he gave the interviews about making a mistake, looking forward to returning, and whatnot.
His partner testing positive really changed the handling of things, and he came off looking really bad, not just because of the sporting issues, but also because of his handling of his personal life. That looked bad to a lot of observers and killed a lot of the good press he had been getting in Italy.
The issue with his partner
Couldn’t have come at a worst time for him professionally. It pretty much killed any good will he might have hoped to create within the cycling community. All that story did was associate the words jerk and doping with Ricco again, obviously not the image he’s hoping to reflect in his comeback.
This is the kind of issue - the baby being breastfed EPO -
that people immediately note/absorb, associate with cycling, and quickly move on. Breastfeeding the baby is too gross, and oh this is bad for cycling.
Ricco was one of the most open dopers, and this really counts for me – he didn’t declare his own Giro successes a fraud when he was busted in the TDF, none of them ever do, but he did everything else he was supposed to do, and received leniency for this.
I do like the tabloid pulling power of Ricco and wish he wasn’t a doper – I couldn’t care less if Nibali get trash talked by Ricco or anyone, and I liked that part of Ricco’s career..his raging outburst in the tent after not being able to hurt Contador in 2008, loved it all.
Ricco is being blacklisted now, don’t agree with the extent of the blacklist, which seems hypocritical to me. Race organizers fear this guy, expect him to test positive again, and also aren’t keen on the idea of him keeping clean and winning/getting a lot of TV time and publicity. They won’t help this guy, so then why don’t then ASO and the Italians get together with the UCI and declare a lifetime ban for doping? The GT organizers obviously have this power, so what’s the holdup?
I have no idea or not whether Ricco was gonna be invited to the Giro in any case, but I suspect it was gonna be no.
Ricco has a better chance of winning the Giro in the Future than Cunego, I’d say.
by rubesANdbabes on Mar 22, 2010 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Protecting the image is what it's all about
I can imagine in my most cynical moments that the ASO and RCS don’t care for a second if Basso or Ricco (or DiLuca) dope after their return, they want them in to bring excitement to their races.
The key issue here is a simple risk assessment. They cost in negative publicity of having them test positive on return is incredibly high. Basso is an obviously smart and calculating guy. If he were to dope again, it would most likely be done in an equally smart and calculated way. With Ricco it’s different. The guy is obviously an unpredictable loose cannon who can’t be trusted to behave in a smart way even when he is under the super-intense scrutiny that everyone expects.
Risk therefore greatly exceeds the benefits and Ricco is unlikely to ride a GT anytime soon.
I do also beleive that basso missed two Giro's during his suspension. winning in 06 and not riding again until 09.
As well the Omission of Astana from the 08 Tour changed the way that organizers dealt with teams that had dopers on them. This means of punishment has not always been evenly applied, but this is consistent with the new paradigm.
It is one in which the race organizers try to shield themselves from bad publicity by excluding potential causes of such. This is entirely at the organizers discretion. Since it is their event and their image I feel they have every right to decide who to invite to their party.
I may invite the guy who got drunk and yelled a bit, to my next party, but I will not invite the guy who got drunk got into a fight and damaged my property and had the cops called on me. My party My rules.
'When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning' - Dr. Reiner Knizia
by bought with blood on Mar 19, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
This has been going on for a while
I remember in 1999 Leblanc and the Tour excluded an entire team (Vini Caldirola) because of a high red blood cell count given by Sergei Gontchar. Nevermind that he wasn’t even scheduled to ride and the team had an outsider for the overall with Casagrande, Leblanc basically had a zero tolerance policy that year, and it looks like the Giro people are following suit this year.
Interesting to see RCS snub his team
even though Sella’s team got an invite into MSR. But maybe that’s because they have better sprinters I doubt Sella gets into the Giro either.
Proud member of Thuggetz nation.
our pies are muddled.
-the basic question is: can an event organization invite any team they want? yes.
-opposite of the basic question: can an event organization NOT invite any team they don’t want? yes.
-are events run by people with subjective opinions on riders and the perceived integrity of their event? yes.
end of discussion.
Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania
I support
the “it’s my party, I can invite who I wanna” line of reasoning. I often wonder, though, how Androni Giocattoli manage to avoid the ban hammer. I guess the overall quality of the roster (compared to Ceramica) outweighs the string of riders testing positive?
Agreed
The nature of cycling is different from a lot of sports in that there is no central “league” that organizes all the games. The events are put on by private organizers who work with the federation and the pro teams, but who also have to answer to their own owners and sponsors. If an event doesn’t make money, the event ceases to exist.
This makes me much more sympathetic to the right of a race organizer to invite the teams they want, and to exclude the ones they think will hurt the race. I’m less concerned about an individual rider’s right to participate in a given event than I am about the event continuing to exist.
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