WSJ-Cyclist Floyd Landis Admits Doping, Alleges Use by Armstrong and Others
by steph- on May 20, 2010 2:32 AM EDT
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Printfrom the Wall Street Journal, May 20th:
Cyclist Floyd Landis Admits Doping, Alleges Use by Armstrong and Others
Floyd Landis, the American cyclist whose 2006 Tour De France victory was nullified after a positive doping test, has sent a series of emails to cycling officials and sponsors admitting to, and detailing, his systematic use of performance enhancing drugs during his career. The emails also claim that other riders and cycling officials allegedly participated in doping, including seven-time Tour de France winner Lance Armstrong.
Ed note: Sui Juris here. Just wanted to haul this note from Chris out of the comments below:
Hi allI should chime in as the gatekeeper here (sorta) —
1. Am way out of pocket today so I can’t meaningfully engage
2. From a very quick skim of this thread I can only say THANK YOU all for keeping it so respectful. This is by far the third rail of cycloblogging and the biggest threat to our most cherished asset, the site’s role as a place for healthy chat. Please proceed with this in mind.
3. If you see Landis/lance/doping chat in other threads, please gently direct that chat here or to other doping threads that occur. Gives people a chance to think about something else. THANKS!
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He's also spilled it to Bonnie Ford at ESPN in a phone interview so it goes beyond that.
I hope he is ready for what’s coming because what’s coming ain’t going to be pretty.
This is surely going to start a wholesale furore...
The ToC officials must be peeved…
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Really? Unless the evidence is floated everywhere publically,
he’ll tough it out. He’s made of granite I think… George on the other hand? I’m speculating wildly…. I’m interested in what happens next, I must say.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
they'll all just deny it
and say Landis has no credibility – not hard to do. Although seems to me all his past denials are what is not credible and all of this is totally credible and i think true. But Landis has given up on getting his career back going, so now he’s going to try to come clean and get a little revenge on everyone (and make some money). Trouble is he is fighting from a weak position and i imagine he’ll take the worst of the publicity fight.
For Lance I am just thinking of the combination of the following:
1. He is in lousy shape and almost certainly has no chance in the TdF
2. Most French already think he has doped and there was a very popular French language book exposé
3. What’s in it for him to ride? Nothing to gain, a lot to lose
muggito
Eh
1 and 2 don’t matter. 3 is a demonstration of his ability to do it clean (which will be somewhat helpful in the present circumstances).
As said in the speculation thread
it all boils down to if he has any documentation to support at least some of the claims.
I have a feeling it might unfold a little like T-Mob after the D’Hont book. Denials at first, then admission from some of the “weaker” persons and then the dominoes fall. But Landis is facing a tough time.
I decided at the moment that I'm more concerned for Cadel...
and what seems to be an ever diminishing supply of team mates.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Same could go for RS... so perhaps leftovers from both teams could get together?
Back themselves… I would.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Yay
does that mean we get to see Vacansoleil and Saur-Sojasun at the Tour?
i can't see this stopping anyone from riding
but what do i know? I do know they have money and great lawyers.
You can't republish
an article in its entirety. It’s copyright infringemnt.
by Tyler Bleszinski on May 20, 2010 3:20 AM EDT reply actions
not true. Fair use applies, even if you state the source.
I can’t name a book’s publisher, then make the whole thing available online. Same goes for pix, which is why Chris reminds us to get permission if we’re sticking something top level in a post.
This is factual information.
The rules are different for that.
After the article gets past one source the rules drastically change.
This is no a picture, or a soneg, or a novel from some artist.
Apparently she started with the whole thing up here, word for word.
That is NOT ok. Not even if it’s an AP story, not unless you pay to use the AP stories. Even nonfiction is written—it doesn’t write itself.
But can I suggest whatever point has been made has been made?
If there was an error it has been fixed.
In the meantime, steph drew our attention to the biggest news in cycling since – well, um, since yesterday, I guess
not busting on Steph! Good work, Steph!
I was confused, then unconfused, now others are confused, I’m doing my part to unconfuse them.
The article was originally copied and posted in full by someone else...
Steph wasn’t the original poster… not that iy matters. It was done innocently.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Yup....posted it rather late last night and did a simple cut and paste....
…could not edit once posted and knew the powers to be here would fix it…and they did.
well, yes, you can edit your own post
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
The only thing that rings false...
I can’t imagine leaving Landis as the one and only guy to reliably check the temperature on anything. Sort of a mercurial, bipolar personality all along, no?
So either that opens the door to a lot of this being fabrication…or alternatively, it suggests that some other people may have been by to check temperatures (and corroborate)…or both, actually.
Hm, if u trust a guy will bury himself for you up the hillsides of the TdF..
.. if you trust this guy enough to openly discuss doping methods with him, I for one think it is fair to assume that you would trust the same guy to check the temperature and pay the electrical bill. I might be wrong.
and when the trust goes, what happens to the bags?
An alleged IM conversation springs to mind.
Oh well, cycling isn’t boring, is it?
Don't we all know some people who are solid, so long as you're there with them,
but totally unreliable when you’re a few miles away?
If what Landis is saying is true
then Bruyneel and Armstrong obviously trusted him enough to tell him their secrets. I just disagree with you that said section rings false.
definitely
someone joins a team – unless they are seriously wacko – you show them the various duties, techniques, procedures that need looking after. You entrust some of them to the new person. It always works like that, until the person shows major inability to do something. Landis isn’t that flaky – was a hard-working guy – apparently took meticulous notes of his training for his entire career well before he was pro. Can’t imagine the guy would have walked into his new team and everyone would have made the judgement that they couldn’t trust him to handle some simple tasks.
You can trust someone's mouth, but not their attention to duty.
Eh, maybe I’ve been too taken in by the “unreliable” meme.
I'm sure that Armstrong's lawyers
will come up with a better line of defense than: “Landis is known to be unreliable, would someone as prudent as Mr Armstrong trust such a character to check the temperature?”. ;)
Now seeing that his doping goes past testosterone
Are we getting a better picture of how important PEDs were to his career? Post-suspension Landis was/is horrible- is that because he tried to do it clean? Or does mental anguish play a role…
I hate mountain lions. -me
If the allegations are true, and I believe they are I'm glad Floyd came clean
but damn this is going to have a hell of an impact.
This seems like Philippe Gaumont, part 2: this time in English. Names named, methods detailed, the works. I firmly believe that telling the truth is better than living a deception, but I can only imagine that the short-term fall out is going to be that a lot of people who make a living off of bike racing will have to find a new career. It is with them in mind that I have a really hard time thinking that this is a good thing, even though in my heart I think it is.
The truth has to come out before things can get better, but I think this will put a big dent in US cycling sponsorship for the near future. I just keep thinking about France post Festina and post Gaumont.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
Um, not so sure.
Deny and attack the credibility of the person making accusations flies strikingly well here, and journalism gets weaker every day. Color me skeptical that this will take down the major offenders.
Also color me a bit afraid for Landis’s life, and the security of the documents in question. Too easy a guy to push, and say that he jumped.
I don’t thing there will be any ’grassy knoll", but he needs to walk away from competitive cycling and do something else.
It is not healthy for either sides.
If what he says is true
it is a hell of a lot healthier for him to tell it, then it is for us to continue believing in a pleasant lie.
French cycling has survived Willy Voet, Festina, and Phillipe Gaumong and Cofidis.
US cycling can survive this. But, it is better for the truth to out than for denial to continue, if, in fact, this is the truth.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
definitely
i wonder how many will come to believe it though. Lance is a hero and Lance is like politics – people have taken sides and they rarely change them. Nonetheless i think it will open people’s eyes a bit to the overall situation. Perhaps at least a little less of this idea that a good or nice guy doesn’t dope, etc.
And hell, americans didn’t even blink on that recent story in american football – guy tests positive, is allowed to play all year, wins an award – they re-vote and re-award him – online polls of fans are supportive of all this.
the reaward point i found really strange
But the NFL always seems to get a free pass on drugs. I love the sport, but I assume that pretty much everyone in a three point stance (at least) is / has been on something
in fact the award
was not an official nfl award but rather an award given by the press (ap). They did a revote – i just assumed it was to decide amoung the other candidates. Ha ha ha! I’m an idiot.
I just think we 'Mericans crave simplicity too much
Armstrong IS a hero. He’s also an asshole. He’s both revolutionized organized doping and training AND made life better for thousands of people with cancer.
Dope or no dope, he’s been an amazing athlete who has a strength of will and singularity of purpose that are epic.
He’s also a lying asshole who has ruined many who tried to tell the truth.
There’s no simple. He’s a hero with flaws. Somebody call Euripides.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
by Koppenberg on May 20, 2010 5:43 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That would be good
I’d prefer a comedy.
Maybe we could compromise and offer the screenplay rights to Sophocles?
Vlaanderens Mooiste
What's the one that starts
with the dung beetles rolling up balls of shit?
The ESPN piece makes the whole "why now" issue much more comprehensible
I do get how a “speak now or don’t bother, ever” feeling would weigh heavy on a guy. If he’d done it in a couple of months, the hypothetical book would have sold just as well, and the riders would have got away basically scott-free, so unless we’re assuming he’s insanely vindictive (could be…but who knows) this makes a certain sort of sense. The timing…why other riders continued to take time to be nice to him personally, yet somehow in ways that didn’t actually improve his credibility or his public persona. (Not that Landis didn’t cut himself off at the knees without help, of course.)
But all the “troubled guy / unstable guy / great friend / support him in his time of instability” stuff—I’ve got to look at it with two sets of eyes, right now. Not to say I’m jumping to a conclusion, but to say the whole situation hangs together just as well if he’s telling the total truth…and if he’s totally gone around the bend.
Telling mom? HIS particular mom? That’s a big one, in my book. I don’t think he’d put her through that, with foresight, for the sake of revenge or a book contract. (As opposed to drifting into serious doping, and not being able to come clean before…which is something that a lot of kids put their moms through, sadly, either in terms of sports doping or general drug use.)
I’m afraid I therefore tend at least marginally to believe…
What? At minimum, that Landis believes what he’s saying. Almost certainly that the diaries are not forged. That he saw and heard a lot. Suspect there needs to be plenty of leeway for an inflated sense of importance, mind you, and some leeway for him to misconstrue who was fully informed, and who was tangentially involved.
I’d be delighted to be wrong. I’m pretty sure almost everyone posting here is very fond of at least some of the riders who’re implicated in this. And also very uneasily aware that said riders still have some days where they’re pretty superhuman, and other days / seasons where they’re extremely human.
Well - this is the big one for cycling
The fact that he specifically names Armstrong puts the whole thing beyong “he’s a flake” category. In my view, there are huge knock on effects…
- Armstrong HAS to sue – unless he can’t. So all this will now play out in a (proper) court of law.
- There is a reasonable chance that Armstrong gets summoned to testify in congress – a la Baseball
- Armstrong cannot – I mean CANNOT – ride the Tour; can you imagine the circus that would result from 2 million French fans armed with forewarning, creativity and a decade of anti-Armstrong bile lining the route?
- There is a good chance that Radioshack folds immediately as a team – would you want to be associated with this?
- Garmin has a real problem and probably has to suspend DZ immediately
- BMC has to be at risk as well – and there are clearly riders who will find it “politic” to retire
And I think all the above will happen whether or not any of the allegations are actually true.
Are they? Well, this is clearly dangerous territory and an area of high passion, but what I would say is this: just because Llandis is a toe-rag who has been lying his little menonite ass off for the last four years, he is not necessarily lieing here. Certainly, from the little that can be gleaned so far, there is nothing conceptually new here – just bigger and badder names.
Crap – this is a disaster for cycling – and it has been in the mail for a decade.
I'm not so sure those knock-on effects will happen
At least, not to the big boys.
First, they’ll try the character assassination angle. Not too hard, since Landis impliedly admits to lying, (although, as you say, that doesn’t mean he’s lying now). You know, the usual ’he’s desperate, someone’s paying him, he wants attention, he’s jealous, he loves cancer’.
Blanket denials accompanying same. Can either sue or perhaps just claim it’s the rantings of a lunatic and ignore. If the regulatory agencies don’t move and tabloid press don’t weigh in with their own momentum, why should any particular rider care? Just deny, deny, deny. Di Luca was caught on tape and still managed to keep riding and be a big star. So some fans will never accept their heroes aren’t what they seem.
The momentum this picks up will depend on the willingness of the press to run with this story and the extent to which the evidence is there. Those two are not inextricably linked.
If the cops were to get involved, though, that would blow the barn door wide open.
I think the difference is that it is Armstrong
First of all, he has been pretty aggressive in using the law to shut things down before – if you don’t do it now, people will wonder why not. Plus, this gives the licence to every journo to ask the dope question whenever Lance is in public: it ruins his profile.
Second thing is that Armstrong is the only name in cycling that the US mainstream press give a flying f*ck about – but he is a huge name and can carry a story on his own. Armstrong has legs where DiLuca does not. It’s going to be open season on him.
The Senate thing may or may not happen. Cycling is (after all) not baseball. But the precedent is there. Plus, Armstrong has (or had) political ambitions and strong links to the Republicans. You don’t think there are some democrats out there who would like to blow up his money raising capabilities? The moment he walks into the Senate to testify, he is done
I don’t think Garmin has a choice – whatever else they are, they are holier than thou re dope; this is a specific allegation against DZ.
And the french thing I think is guaranteed. There are a substantial number of French fans who loath Armstrong for his success – free reign has now been granted
Links to Republicans? I don't think so.
I never heard him in support of one of the parties. His buddy Bush Jr. is just a fellow Texan, bikerider and goofball.
I'm not American, so I may have been wrong on that
But I thought the working assumption was that Armstrong was positioning himself for a run at the Texas governor’s mansion as a member of the GOP
When they get up, could our local Americans confirm / deny?
There was plenty of polemica on the basis of that assumption, for sure.
And we could have a long discussion about disparate strands of the R party, both in and outside of TX. Except that we can’t, so we won’t. Not here.
Armstrong could not run as a republican
In Texas. That atheism thing and stem-cell support
by R Mc on May 20, 2010 8:16 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Concur
And that now makes two Texans, so it’s true…
If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when are you going to have time to do it again?
by CannonDowell on May 20, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
It could be worse
CannonDowell . . . you’re not an Aggie, are you?
Cuz we could have just started an “aggie tradition.”
Haha
I wish I was just to spook everybody else. But, no I am old Eagle.
If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when are you going to have time to do it again?
by CannonDowell on May 20, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
pretty sure he's a dem
spoke of GWB as someone who listened despite all his disagreements, and then expressed disappointment at some of his political positions; has come out quite left on many issues.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on May 20, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
and . . . (remembering)
John Kerry was in the follow-car for the last time trial in the 04 tour . . .
Speaking of
John Kerry is not unfamiliar with taking the occasional pull at the front of local informal cycling spots.
You might find
this amusing:
What I was expecting was the normal 12 mph dawdle with the Senator wearing some ugly Bermuda shorts or whatever. However, when Senator Kerry showed up at Slipstream HQ in Boulder, man, it was a different story.
First clue was he was excited to be wearing the cycling clothes he got from us. (Yes, he bought them, regulatory agencies reading this.) The second big clue was a race cut medium actually fit him well. The third clue was his legs were shaved! Can you do that and still be a Senator??!
Read the rest.
Awesome
Suonds like fun guy (never thought I would say that)
Also – great news he is thinking about legislation. My view is that making this stuff a criminal rather than a sporting offence is the way to go.
Threatening people with three years in the slammer (a) works somewhat better as a deterent, and (b) is a hell of a lot more effective in getting them to talk once caught.
See Millar, D
note that this is a couple of years old, now
No idea of what happened to that legislation.
But if it came up, I’d put some time into opposing it. Criminalisation isn’t the answer.
I dunno...
I think it helps the French.
And if not criminalisation, what? Current deterrent measures dont work…
This is not a crime of the disadvantaged or those from bad circumstance. This is fraud with massive side consequences to many innocent parties. It deserves to be punished, and the current weapons don’t hack it.
Also, it would require criminal standard of proof, so probably would be used only rarely, but would be excellent leverage.
It's not a public concern worth spending public resources on
It’s a bunch of guys riding bikes in competition for bragging rights and prizes. If ASO and UCI wanted to, they could construct a very effective scheme of testing and deterrence that every rider would have to agree to. But they don’t really want to, and it’s BS to try and offload that responsibility onto a criminal justice system that is already overwhelmed by actual crimes with actual consequences.
Well - I respect the view
But I also respectfully disagree with most of it… but think that reasonable men can differ on the point.
It’s bloody difficult, certainly.
But if the sport itself isn't willing
to put the time and effort into policing this, why should the public be asked to? We’re supposed to save it from itself?
To take up the point(and I am trying to avoid going too much back and forth, as we basically respectfully disagree philosophically here)
There are plenty of situations where individuals or small groups cannot effectively regulate themselves. In that situation, society often fills the gap by imposing rules from above.
eg – speeding laws. Pretty much everyone speeds and many people refuse to “self limit” as they believe they are exceptions; but society is happy to impose limits from above for the protection of the wider society
Yes, I understand that we
philosophically disagree, and I’m not really trying to change your mind on it. More prodding to understand the edges of your position (like Yeehoo, below).
The society doesn't fill the gap
It’s the government who does. And it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea, speed limits isn’t a very good comparison here. Drivers are not a small group, and we’re not trying to save them from themselves.
"i just see giro and get all spazzy" - Gavia
by TheFigurehead on May 20, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
in some ways we are.
It can’t be a healthy thing to dope – just like it’s not a healthy thing (in the long run) to speed. Both may kill you
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
that's true too
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
A variety of points...
I have a safety point – doping puts people at risk – there are plenty of dead you cyclists
I have a fraud point – doping is fraud, pure and simple
i have an effectiveness point – prison may well be a deterrent in the way a ban is not
I have an efficiency point -I dont think that it would actually take that much time and resource
I have a precedent point – we already have criminal laws against match fixing
I have a philosophical point – there are plenty of laws that are designed to prevent group behaviours which are injuriious but that the specific groups in question are not capable of controllign themselves
And plenty others – it’s an intersting one…
and then there are the various industries..
who are “self governed” and can’t manage that either. I’m not a big fan of self government.
Doping is cheating, which isn’t technically fraud, but is against the rules.
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
yeah i agree but this is just a sport
i mean can we get the cops to start calling traveling in the nba?
something has to be done
about all that traveling.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
to me, there's should be a very
clear difference between “rules” and criminal laws. If you move your piece on the Candyland board while I’ve turned around, you’ve broken the rules. That does not mean you should go to jail. Hell, you can cheat every time you play Candyland – I don’t really care, and it’s hardly reason to criminalise breaking the rules of Candyland.
that would also depend on which country you are in?
that’s just a guess though.
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
mostly illegal
But then we get to an issue of prosecuting people for taking things without prescription. And now we’re talking about vast swaths of the population.
happens every day.
If you buy this exercise machine, you will dominate! If you wear this body spray, women will literally throw themselves at you.
If I enter a 5k race with a $35 prize for 10th, and cut a corner, the (correct) penalty is that I’ll be DQ’d and shamed. Possibly banned from future races. Complete waste of resources to make it a crime.
on a roll honey..
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
I liken this more to insider trading
Where there are very clear laws and penalties.
it all depends on what analogy you think is most appropriate. My “fraud” is your “gamesmanship” i suspect
but we can still be friends and
have different opinions – that’s what makes life interesting – and Podium Cafe a great place to meet people – because they respect other people’s views.
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
giggle
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
ZR, George is not going out with you
no matter what Jimbo said he’d set up. Sorry to have to tell you like this.
There's a dating service?
Damn, I missed that in the sidebar.
I'm betting on science to cure all the damage done by my reckless behaviour.
by omnevelnihil on May 20, 2010 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions
What, the rest get to have fun
and you give him a second mother? That’s cruel…
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Cruel?
I thought that was my assigned role?
In any event, I advise both of you to be more complete in future applications if you’re unhappy with the present result. Also, enjoy a complimentary showing of this film, on me.
Thanks for the film
And with all due respect to Seahorse, I specifically asked for a ruggedly handsome man from the greater DC area into cycling and ball-gags. Ideally one who knows how to wear a hat.
I'm betting on science to cure all the damage done by my reckless behaviour.
by omnevelnihil on May 21, 2010 4:05 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agree
Which is why i think a point-a-point is interesting, but I think myself and Sui have fundamentally different beliefs about this – both of which reasonable people can hold
our entire market (hahahahahaha)
system depends on stopping things like insider trading. Pro cycling? What’s the threat? That I end up feeling stupid because I went to one of Floyd’s fundraisers? Eh. Doesn’t seem very important to society.
Actually
Insider trading only became illegal (in the UK at least) in the early eighties. Before that, it was regarded as a perk of the job
So, our market system does not rely on stopping it… :)
And this economist believes that there are no good reasons for a ban
But I think we’re way off topic now.
"i just see giro and get all spazzy" - Gavia
by TheFigurehead on May 20, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree...
none of the drugs they take are illegal – but their use in sport is prohibited – a very fine distinction (one which our law loving friend Sui could probably define better than me).
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
still not illegal
just not supposed to be issued without a prescription – which could be gotten from any particularly rotten doctor (Ferrari anyone?)
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
didn't mean in this particular case
and ever heard of false names?
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
But then you are back to taking it with a false presecription
which is also illegal for both ends of the transaction (depending on jurisdiction)
The presription is either valid or it isnt…
yeah, but if it's a false name
how do you find out where he got it (or she, given that the girls get caught occasionally too) unless the cyclist gives up their supplier?
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
Doesn't that rule him out of Texas anyway
it’s like one step away from sleeping with Jane Fonda or something
would guess he's a mix
a bit like schwarzenegger – i don’t really know but i’d think kind of dem on social issues (in the american sense) and repub on economics – i do suspect we might eventually find out
Strong links to R's and also some links to D's
as has been pointed out, as an atheist, he’s not a really viable R candidate. Not sure we can have this discussion here, BTW, due to the “politics” ban. But in this case, where we’re talking about the political aspirations and connections of a rider, that might be a special case. I think we need a ruling by Chris in the next 24 hours or so. Until that time, might be reasonable to self-censor on this one aspect (?) or at least wait until it’s not a hypothetical issue. NB, I’m not making demands, just suggestions.
It's an interesting and fair question - and I will park it as suggested..
… just rounding off with the statement that I have no view (in this forum) of the merits or otherwise of his political views. But I simply note that if there IS a polical ambition, then there is a motive for political opponents to big this up and keep it rolling.
And politics, as we know, is a dirty game.
But will let Chris rule on whether he wants this topic in or out… there is plenty of other polemica to wade through!
:)
i'd think he could turn it to his advantage
sewer rat liar disgraced doper who admits lying to his own mother attacks great american hero. Gimme a break. Anything could eventually happen but for now odds are with the big guy i’d think.
McGuire is back
got a standing ovation from the fans, is working again in baseball (i think) and got media support – well mixed reviews from the media – i read some articles defending him. And Mcguire is nothing compared to armstrong i think.
McGuire
The turn around (to the extent that it is one) is based on the fact that he ’fessed up (sort of) in a recent interview. He did it because he wanted to go to work for the St Louis Cardinals as a hitting coach, and they made the job offer conditional on him “clearing the air”. Media support can be fairly described as mixed.
The ovation he got was from St Louis Cardinals fans – where he spent the major chunk of his career (including the home run races) and has the most positive vibe.
For the years immediately following the Senate hearings, he was a pariah.
And I think “the man who saved baseball” had much more residual love from the populace than a cyclist of any ilk – but again, suspect you need to be living in America to know (which I don’t)
Bonds still has support in San Fransisco, for example…
i always thought "the man who saved baseball" was cal ripkin jr?
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
the term seems to vary - but i have seen it applied to McGuire for his home run race with Sammy Sosa
Can I dodge that question?
There is a pretty much accepted theory on that – but one that is hard to put in writing on an internet post and get the right meaning across, plus not piss people off…
please dodge
sorry, was just joking – the question couldn’t help but come to mind. Didn’t mean for you to answer. I really shouldn’t have said it.
No - it's a valid question
But the answer touches on so many hot buttons I would rather someone else jumped on that grenade…
actually, also referenced to barry bonds, babe ruth...
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
well i'd think
we can say which party he might be linked to or is likely to get involved with, without getting into a political discussion. Just watch our words carefully.
Did he sue Walsh when his book came out? I can’t recall. But he might understandably be litigation-wary and justify it on the basis that it will simply allow baseless allegations to be repeated, or words to that effect.
I agree that Armstrong is a big name. He might also be big enough to put pressure on the press not to run a story. I guess we’ll see.
I disagree that Garmin is holier-than-thou these days. Slipstream was loudly anti-dopingat the beginning; they’ve been a bit quiet on that front lately. This will be a real test of Vaughters’ mettle.
I also disagree that the French loathe Armstrong ‘for his success’. My impression is that it’s a little more complicated than that, although his success has doubtless contributed.
On the French
Totally agree on the “more complicated that that” – just trying to keep myself short on the point. But you are right – there is a fifty page essay to be written on the Grench relationship with Armstrong
not sure at all about the french thing
He has more fans here than most people realize – but even they don’t think he was clean. They think he was a great champion who was doped like everyone else in the peloton. His detractors have thought all along he was doped. I guess it does bring it all back to light and sort of give people more incentive to boo and so on.
Also really – armstrong can come out of this in america smelling like a rose. He may not, but i’d put money on it.
Armstrong / Rose
I wonder – people are still effing angry about Baseball and its dopers. So wonder if they will have even less tolerance for a guy who was respected rather than loved?
But again americans will know better
Are they angry about the dopers in baseball?
I think there is more anger about the strike.
by tedvdw on May 20, 2010 5:16 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
McGwire got a standing ovation not so long ago
and editorials in the press defending him. Not so sure there is really much anger there – at Bonds, yes, not so sure about the rest.
Rose
as in pete rose? the pete rose scandal involved betting against the sport of baseball, not the use of performance-enhancing drugs. apples and oranges.
Yep
I am still pissed about Maris’ record being broke by MM and then Bonds. I think they should extract them from the books. My opinion as a kid who grew up idolizing many players…
If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when are you going to have time to do it again?
by CannonDowell on May 20, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
agree
Armstrong is a HUGE hero to non-cycling fans in America
If no evidence – he is likely to be wearing teflon
muggito
even with evidence
It’ll need to cops, I reckon, or some really determined reporting, or someone else spilling the beans
It's going to be a circus at the ToC
And franky, it SHOULD be a circus at the ToC.
Compared to the tactical developments of a middling stage race where half the peloton don’t care who wins, this is a massive story. It should be the first question off the jounos note pads, and the second and the third. people need to come clean – and this is way beyond the smoke / fire test
yeah i could see that
although also a lot of pressure on him not to, i’d think – perhaps depends on what his team advises him to do.
I see it differently,
I think he could get backed by Vaughters, Millar, and CVV and basically pull a ‘Zabel’.
Maybe take the rest of this year off voluntarily and walk on clean.
Yes.
It is a veritable sacrament that Armstrong can do no wrong (even if he did). Arguing that is like arguing religion. Pointless the vast majority of the time. And just as unenticing for politicians (and no way that any elected pol in the US would jump on Armstrong. No upside to that. At all.)
But McGuire isn't asking
Why you love cancer?
I'm betting on science to cure all the damage done by my reckless behaviour.
by omnevelnihil on May 20, 2010 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions
different situation. baseball and the anti-trust exemption.
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
My bet:
GH, DZ, LA, etc. aren’t going anywhere. They’ll race the races they planned to race in. This is all too far back for people to really care about, is my guess. Lance & Co will say “test me now! go ahead!” and that’ll be that for this season (in terms of who keeps competing. The shitstorm will continue outside.)
yeah...
I don’t think it’s too far back, especially for Armstrong (as Will said, his entire persona depends upon him never, ever having failed a test), but it’s not really hard to paint Landis as a wack job, especially if you have a huge PR maching working for you.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on May 20, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Disagree that Lance's entire persona depends upon him being clean
Maybe with some people. But lots of people (me included) assume that he likely doped, but don’t really care all that much. The level-playing-field argument is part of it (everyone else was/is doping too); also the fact that he gets a lot of good will from his anti-cancer activities. (My impression is that a lot of serious cycling fans underestimate the importance of the anti-cancer thing to the Lance legend.)
This will certainly tarnish his image, but I don’t think it will destroy it.
Cycling will always be a beautiful sport no matter how many people disgrace it.--Christian Vande Velde
I’m sure he’d still be a respected anti-cancer advocate and all that stuff even if it came out that he doped. For the other stuff (e.g. he’s hinted that he’d like to run for political office)? No way. I think Armstrong in the popular imagination is based on 2 “against the odds” stories: beating cancer, and beating dopers while staying clean. If any part of that narrative falls apart, so does everything that “Lance Armstrong” means in the popular imagination, in my view.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on May 20, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, with Zabriskie
I have to think suspending him without due process is out of the question, even by Garmin’s standards. I would think the sport would’ve come to a consensus that doping was a prevalent issue of the past, ad that the guilty of the mid 00’s probably out number the innocent. Garmin needs to say “this has no bearing on our organization, our fight for clean racing, or Zabriskie’s future endeavors as a member of the squad.” As for Radio Shack, they’ll plead the insane Landis case, like wa done so many times by Lance before (with others mind you).
Yep.
If I’m Garmin, I say, “The entire point of our team is about racing clean going forward. We founded the team in recognition of what had been going on in the past, in order to help prevent it going on in the future. We have and continue to abide by that standard and it’s been our longstanding policy not to comment on / discuss what was done prior to the founding of the team.”
May not too.
The more I think about this, the more I wouldn’t be surprised, if all of this turns out to have some backbone and some staying power, if JV and others don’t say, “OK, fine, circumstances have changed. Full disclosure time.” I’m honestly not sure which is better.
There’s nothing remotely hypocritical about saying I raced when it was commonplace; I did it; I hated it; I want to help eliminate it from the sport going forward.’ The question is whether the second of those 4 statements, which JV has avoided making, is a distraction or an aid to his cause at this juncture.
Perhaps I'm gullible
Armstrong and Hincapie storing blood in a closet fridge? Landis to make sure that the electricity didn’t go off? He have electrical super powers? Some stuff here are a bit too far-fetched.
"i just see giro and get all spazzy" - Gavia
i.e. pay the bills, and if there's been a blackout, check whether temperature held.
I believe all that, we had short power blackouts pretty often when I was a kid in SoCal. Probably not rare in other areas either (?). Lots of above ground electric lines in the US. Add big winds, routing issues, and outages are still more frequent than you’d expect in a modern country.
Since I'm flying into Girona airport this weekend for a holiday
I was trying to be nice … :)
I love the area, btw – it is beautiful and wonderful, and I can see why cyclists love it so much
What, now you're an expert on Girona's (Spain's?) infrastructure in a historical perspective?
Dude, it’s not a third world country.
highly variable
Some parts ultra modern, some medieval
-both in style and in infrastructure-
with the two not strongly correlated.
I can totally see why people retire there.
you’re still referring to LA, right? ;)
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on May 20, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Been without bike in Spain once
I haven’t cycled across country, only been in various places and rode around there.
to clarify, it's 5 AM here,
I’ve been sleepless since 3 AM. I’m rambling. Thinking of how we used to handle blackouts, or the possibility of them happening while on vacation. How to know if the stored food would be safe when you got back. (Answer—freeze an inch or two of water in a plastic bottle in normal orientation, then lay the bottle on its side. If a thaw-refreeze happens, the position of the water will change, and you’ll know the food is suspect.) It works in any country, promise.
Whether he is right or not, Landis is a huge asshole.
IMO, you CANNOT do this. especially not if you’ve taking dope for years and have lied about it for ages.
It really looks like this guy has fallen for the dark side. This is ridiculous, he really needs to check his social abilities.
Um, you sort of have to be a doper and have lied about it
to “come clean and name names.” I mean, if I came clean and named names, there’d be a whole lot of silence going on.
Oddly, I don't think he is an asshole for naming names
I think he is an asshole for spending four years, untold grief and lots of other people’s money on trying not to.
One of the first steps in recovery is to
come clean to the people you have injured. Landis has come clean to USA Cyclilng and the UCI.
We are not better off being lied to, if that is what was going on.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
yep.
so if there’s a freezer in the house too… you can use that to figure out the outage period, and take a good guesstimate on the fridge. Or if it’s the old style fridge with a built in freezer shelf (so twitchy, those can be, and the blood goes bad if you freeze it!) you keep checking the temperature a couple-three times a day.
I'm sure that Armstrong could pay the bills himself
Or, if needed, ask someone on the team staff to do it for him. Someone who didn’t need to know exactly what he had in the apartment. As for checking the temperature, I don’t know what Landis in reality could have done if there was something wrong with it.
"i just see giro and get all spazzy" - Gavia
by TheFigurehead on May 20, 2010 5:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Simply tell people not to use the blood
It’s a warning device, not a fixing device (unless he had his own fridge).
This is “keep it within the team” stuff. You’re in the club so you are trusted, and you use no-one outside the club to help keep it quite. Seems sensible to me
Actually nobody with any credibility in the matter
has said that Landis paid the bills.. ;)
If there was something wrong with it he could have told A. I guess there are reasons for keeping blood refrigerated. You may not want “bad blood” reinjected into your veins.
But if this was when Landis broke his hip
And they got the blood for the Tour de France, they stored it for a pretty long time. 5-6 months. That’s about twice as long compared to blood in normal blood banks. They’re obviously not caring that much about blood going bad.
"i just see giro and get all spazzy" - Gavia
by TheFigurehead on May 20, 2010 5:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Hm, why do you say 5-6 months?
Landis wrote that after breaking his hip in 2003, he flew to Girona, Spain—a training hub for American riders—and had two half-liter units of blood extracted from his body in three-week intervals to be used later during the Tour de France. The extraction, Mr. Landis claimed, took place in Mr. Armstrong’s apartment, where blood bags belonging to Mr. Armstrong and his then-teammate George Hincapie were kept in a refrigerator
It just says "after" breaking his hip.
It does not time the extractions specifically. Do we now when Landis flew to Girona? Do you know?
You may be on the side of Steffen Kjærgaard on this issue. May I ask you a direct question. Do you think that Lance doped? I do and I did. This may explain our different take on this.
I think it's a huge possibilty that Lance doped
Not the least because of what Michael Ashenden said in the Nyvelocity interview. This is more about Floyd Landis’ reliability.
"i just see giro and get all spazzy" - Gavia
by TheFigurehead on May 20, 2010 5:29 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah, I read the WSJ article, there’s something about the whole thing that just strikes me as not completely right. A bit too “neat,” too all-encompassing, I don’t know exactly…doesn’t help that it’s Landis and no one else…just sounds a bit “off” to me. I think this will hurt Landis more than anyone else.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on May 20, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I think it's certainly possible, and arguably likely.
as a scientist, I don’t feel a need to assert a belief, one way or another. Nor do I see dissecting the evidence as implying that we either do or don’t have certain underlying suspicions. Lancelove and ELPMO are not yet actual religions, so far as I know, and we’re none of us required to swear our loyalties on a stack of postal forms. If your beliefs are overwhelming your ability to discuss the situation dispassionately, maybe you should step back briefly, before you impute motives where none reside.
That was very coherent coming from a sleepy person. :)
Relax man. I think it is a fair question to ask. I’m all for dissecting the “evidence”. Passion does not come into play here, I assure you. I was just curious as I think that “personal beliefs” have the capacity to influence the way we look at the statements of Landis. Some scientists may also agree. And even scientists need to sleep.
yeah, but its a doping issue
If I hit the robitussin DM at 5 AM, I’ll be out cold until noon. Better to tough it out today, probably.
Well . . .
. . . in fact Purple Drank would be something like –
Heh Zǐ Sè la (Drink Purple did)
Chabudwa . . .
The question was not directed at you btw.
I would not ask you such a direct question. I asked TFH because we have had our share of discussions and conversations before.
Eh, the "you" was in a reply to your own post, no?
Or are my eyes going funky? So I assumed it was rhetorical, or else open to all.
smiles
Well, yes the “you” was in reply to me own post but I meant it as a continuation of the response to TFH. Anyway, my point is that it wasn’t a challenge to you. I was in no way implying that anyone’s judgement was clouded. I just wanted to know as normally TFH and I see eye to eye on these issues. Here what he saw as suspicious I viewed as plausible. I still disagree about the Landis unfit/unlikey to be put in charge of temperature observation. I agree that the duration of blood storage raises some questions.
He broke his hip in January 2003
Raced again in Tour of Georgia. So yeah, 4-6 months then. My bad.
"i just see giro and get all spazzy" - Gavia
by TheFigurehead on May 20, 2010 5:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Not bad at all. :)
How long were blood bags used for transfusions normally stored back then? I know very little about the optimal storage time for blood for doping purposes.
For medical purposes?
Now it’s 7 weeks. Don’t know how long it was back then. And even if the health care make sure that they’re on the safe side, the time involved here seem to be a bit too long to be safe.
"i just see giro and get all spazzy" - Gavia
by TheFigurehead on May 20, 2010 5:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Fair point. Does raise questions. Maybe they were not safe?
As some have suggested they (cheating cyclists) may not have been experts on blood storage at this time. I also agree with those who point to the need of keeping the circle of people in the know to a minimum.
With a name like Frigo
atleast he should be able to keep blod refrigerated. :)
Heh. A pro amateur!
I was just making a language joke as Frigo means refrigerator in Italian.
Experts enough to know they have to meticulously check the temperature
But not experts enough to know how long they should store the blood
"i just see giro and get all spazzy" - Gavia
by TheFigurehead on May 20, 2010 6:13 AM EDT up reply actions
with better outcomes / less inflammation if used well before...
that expiration date. But there’s no hard line. More inflammation risks (short term) and I’d suspect autoimmune risks (long term). But that depends on what’s in the storage bag, I believe. There are all sorts of additives and bag types and protocols.
I can imagine they might have used a rolling protocol. Person A donates. one to two months later, B donates, and tops off with A’s blood (assuming A is a match). Repeat. You end up a pint or two or three ahead, consistently, without your main rider ever being a pint low.
This is still same people who checks the temperature every day
And worries about the blood going bad?
"i just see giro and get all spazzy" - Gavia
by TheFigurehead on May 20, 2010 6:14 AM EDT up reply actions
cycling the blood (no pun intended)
is actually pretty smart. Esp. if you take the new blood before you put the previous bag back in your body. Still a frightening number of transfusions, but let’s assume that’s considered a small risk compared to the risks on the road.
lots of life-saving alternatives, here.
1. taken some ice packs from the freezer, and stuck them in the fridge.
2. Told the guys not to put the blood back in their veins.
Remember, once it cools down again, you don’t know that it was warm in between.
maybe Landis switched names
on the bags in 2006?
Because that was some boost he received going up Joux Plane
muggito
And to me
This screams “we’re a bunch of amateurs!” Really, if you have to go through all this hazzle to store the blood in your own apartment, you should ask yourself if there aren’t better and safer ways of doing it.
"i just see giro and get all spazzy" - Gavia
by TheFigurehead on May 20, 2010 5:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Which was kind of my point to begin with
"i just see giro and get all spazzy" - Gavia
by TheFigurehead on May 20, 2010 5:21 AM EDT up reply actions
A small circle of involved
I think they wouldn’t have 34 assistants involved. If they did stuff like this it had to be low key and on as small a scale as possible.
Good thing I haven't said anything about 34 assistants then
To me it’s possible to both have just a small circle involved and not storing blood in your own apartment.
"i just see giro and get all spazzy" - Gavia
by TheFigurehead on May 20, 2010 5:31 AM EDT up reply actions
but people WERE about blood doping
that’s part of why it was so risky and scary—because they were convinced it was not risky at all. that’s what the docs who participated have all said, and I do believe that part of it—the guys were doing it anyway, the docs didn’t want them to kill themselves.
The lesson from Balco is that doping is almost always done in a completely amateur manner
In BalCo you had the biggest stars in the land trusting a sleazy bloke in a two room office in the Bay area, who just gave them untested stuff to take / rub -and they did it.
None of this stuff ever comforms to medical standards. When you are doing something this ethically dubious, which is a professional short cut, you end up doing it under the care of ethically dubious people who cut corners.
Frankly a lot of the time they would be safer with a vet.
Safer as in
healthy or safer as in not getting caught?
Vlaanderens Mooiste
by Koppenberg on May 20, 2010 5:28 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And I'll bet the blokes who had a doctor in Spain storing them wished
they’d kept the bags in their own apartments
by Drongo on May 20, 2010 5:30 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
but power outages happen everywhere
no matter where you live or how developed the country is or whether you’ve paid your bill or not. And with something as important as this, it makes sense they took precautions and kept an eye on things as much as possible – they’d have been totally incompetent slackers if they didn’t.
I'd presume so
the HWMNBN convention applied while he was not riding, and there was no new evidence or new allegations from a major source. Both of those situations have changed.
Watch those morals bend
Interestingly no denial.
Also, federal investigating agencies are involved – that is bad news for Mr Armstrong cos those guys don’t scare for anyone
that's rather my point...
… those guys just GO. They have Landis naming names to them, and from stuff I have read about the Balco investigation they are ANGRY at being jacked around by pro athletes with massive senses of entitlement… Plus, they have subpoenas, a lot of background knowledge, and are not afraid to use it
What, Vaughters' morals? Were you expecting a denial?
Vaughters has never denied anything. He’s never (formally) admitted anything either, though if the system allowed him to I suspect he probably would.
I do worry a bit for Garmin here, I have to say.
"I was just trying to keep warm" - Ian Stannard on finishing third in KBK
Vaughters has refused to make his own history or the pre-history of the team a matter of discussion...
…which, frankly, given his objectives, seems wise to me.
I’m not sure how you go forward if somehow clearing up the entire mess of the past is a condition for doing so.
Federal investigation based on
what?
Remember, Jones, et al. got popped for lying. Not doping. I don’t think we’ll see any US law enforcement involvement here (a good thing, in my view).
The article seems to reference that they are involved already...?
“Jeff Novitzky, federal agent who spearheaded the investigation into the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative steroids case, is involved in the investigation. It is not clear whether Landis has contacted him via e-mail or telephone.”
Agree that his involvement is a bit odd. But is there some form of tax fraud / cross state bounderies trafficking thing that could come into play here? You are, after all, both American and a lawyer, so am asking out of interest not out of debate…
He/She is not a lawyer
(that’s how I understood it)
I'm betting on science to cure all the damage done by my reckless behaviour.
by omnevelnihil on May 20, 2010 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions
In any event
I Am Not A Lawyer with any particularly useful expertise in that area, so my opinions are as amateur as the rest. The article notwithstanding, I don’t think there’s any real Fed investigation going on (i.e., they got something from WADA’s General Counsel’s office saying “Hey, we got a report that says X.” Feds, being aware of the likely high profile nature of it, perform a cursory “did you buy these drugs illegally in the US?” check (the answer to which is almost certainly no), and that’s that.
Well
if somebody decides to get on it, they can get it.
The BALCO case happened because someone wanted to get on it.
All it takes is one US Attorney to decide he has jurisdiction, sic the dogs on it,and everything will come tumbling out.
Will that happen? I doubt it. No political upside to itand not enough interest in the US about it .
So it dies a fairly quick death in the US.
McQuaid’s comments tell me all I need to know about how the cyclling establishment will treat it.
Personally, I choose not to think about it, in any sport.
i thought it was a new apple product.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Also Chris would have been raided by a SWAT team
by LurkerMcLurkerson on May 21, 2010 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Why do you think he's 'travelling'?
Can’t go home, they’re watching his place…
I'm betting on science to cure all the damage done by my reckless behaviour.
by omnevelnihil on May 21, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I personally favour the “Lumpenproletariat” option
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on May 20, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
McQuaid handballs it to USADA
says Landis must have an agenda
Thanks for your contribution Pat! Genius.
Did he not get to read the mail of april 30th? He should encourage cyclists speaking up not focusing on a so-called agenda. Pat, twat.
Given that what Landis is saying is true, of course...
In the mail that Irishpeleton quotes down-thread I see how his mail implicates the UCI and Verbrugge. It provides incentive for the UCI and Pat to distance himself from Landis’ statements. This is huge.
Pretty big dodge by Vaughters
[x] Veiled attack on the character of the accuser
[x] Non-denial denial
[ ] Reason to think DZ is innocent of Landis charges based on Vaughters statement
I'll eliminate you like I eliminate gluten from my diet.
by tehGrindCrusher on May 20, 2010 6:09 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the price JV paid for his own top level team
was his silence on this sort of issue. He had to ensure that he wouldn’t spit into the soup in order to be allowed into the club.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
Indeed
He has never come completely clean about his own stuff – while giving enough nods and winks to say that it happened without throwing anyone else under the bus.
But the baffling thing is that (historically at least) he has been good at steering away from tainted riders. So either (a) he didnt know about DZ or (b) they are good enough mates that he bent his own rules.
Now he has a serious problem.
There is of course possiblity © that DZ is innocent as charged. But Landis is only the latest – although in my view the most credible – guy to say that USPS had an institutionalised doping culture. There is an awful lot of smoke now…
or that DZ doped for TofC in 2006 with CSC
Which makes it a CSC problem, potentially not a Garmin problem.
+100
This is everyone’s problem
Pre 06 CSC looks increasingly dirty – which pulls in all the Riis riders
Vaughters has a huge problem
Armstrong is the biggest name in cycling
Loads of the USPS / Disco / Astana / radioshack riders still racing
No, Vaughters left all that behind
with Slipstream, trained by Allen Lim…
And the same fellow who trained Landis in 2006.
I’m not saying he’s done anything (how the hell do I know?); it is however, illustrative of how wide the implications of these allegations are.
CVV was on USPS too remember.
This has cascading effects.
JV, CVV, & DZ are either ‘All in’ or ‘All out’
There is nothing in the middle.
I think that's a false dichotomy
It is possible to have made bad decisions and move on.
I think there is plenty of room in the middle. We’ve known that JV was no stranger to “hot sauce” but that doesn’t mean Slipstream was a lie.
I can belive (more fool me?) that JV could say “I don’t care what’s happened in the past, but our financial model is based on a different approach to training.”
I can believe riders would gravitate to a team like that, happy to escape a more “permissive” team culture.
More fool me?
Vlaanderens Mooiste
+1
I believe Zabriskie could have done it in the past and it trully is the past. It isn’t like Zabriskie hasn’t appeared to have struggled since he left CSC.
No, he has the same problem he's always had.
I don’t think he has broken his own rules, as I understood them. Note that he’ll have Millar on his team whereas Sky won’t. Surely the rules were whatever you’ve done in the past, you don’t do it now? Or perhaps that’s me projecting my own suspicion of anyone around Lance/Floyd in that era. ;-)
"I was just trying to keep warm" - Ian Stannard on finishing third in KBK
Yes, but I think JV did that just to get a little time to asses options and make a strategy on how to properly deal with this.
I think he can block and side step until next week.
The whole ’We’re here to race." line will work for a day, or so.
Not for me if I am a jouno
Question #1: "BMC benched a rider because of an (erroneous) report about a blood passport – just to be safe. You, Mr Vaughters, make a big deal about dope. This is a specific allegation from someone who is likely to know – Why don’t you bench DZ “just to be safe? Are you putting results ahead of your anto doping creed? Should we ever believe you again when you talk about dope?” And so on…
by addict on May 20, 2010 6:28 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Easy response:
I believe my riders deserve justice. If you can provide evidence other than heresay, we’ll do the right thing, but I also have to be fair to my riders. I believe David is clean and I’ll support him until I see credible evidence to the contrary.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
I'm sure that will be his response - you are dead right
Just not sure the line will hold. May do, of course.
Or better “I believe David is clean and has been the entire time he has been apart of my team, I’ll support him until I see credible evidence to the contrary.”
That washes his hands of the past.
Except...
JV was a member of USPS himself… I think he will come under pressure to say more clearly what he knows
Ah! But he can dodge that pretty easily and keep the focus on his team, his reasons for making his team and that his focus is right now.
He can just say things happed in the past we all can go online and do a Google search if we want to read about it.
He doesn’t need to rehash what is already documented.
Sorry - realise I'm sounding antagonistic
Not really meaning too – and I am a supporter of the Slipstream concept.
Just think this is now too big and too out fo control to be spun. It’s going to be really hard to hold a “non-denial denial” line.
And sponsors will get spooked whatever.
Crap – this is rubbish
Indeed.
That must have been one of those Freudian penises.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
by Koppenberg on May 20, 2010 6:48 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Out of interest, why not? (or should that be, why shouldn't there be?)
If Dekker can get done for a test that is two years old?
What is the statute of limitations in this case?
Don’t have an answer to the above – just wondering.
Eight years
was stated in either the WSJ or ESPN piece as one of the reasons Landis is going public now. Otherwise some stuff would be inconsequential.
Sorry - I didn't mean in a legal sense
I meant in a moral sense – at what stage do we say “that’s in the past” – which will be one of the main themes over the next few weeks, whatever else is true.
legal sense
because it’s only an accusation by an ex-rider with an axe to grind. Moral sense because he could just as well be clean now and 8 years ago is 8 years ago. True there is the statute of limitations thing, which is why he did it now, apparently, and i have to admit, that does complicate things a bit. But i’m guessing no benchings.
Out of curiosity...
… we are all keen that Valv.Piti serves his sentence for Puerta – which is also “in the past” (actually, give or take about the same time). Why saying he has to take the hit, but others shouldn’t?
I can see a key current difference is that there is no proof beyond one man’s ranting – but if this stands up, would you let them off scot free?
I don’t have the answer to that, btw. But I have just gone and cancelled my Amazon order for Le Metier… on an emotional, not rational basis
Stands up how?
To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever been disciplined in cycling based solely on testimony—or even on documents. The standard has been that there needs to be definitive physical proof (positive test or blood bag).
If anyone comes up with the same standard of evidence that nailed Valverde, of course the people involved should face the same penalty. Assuming Valverde ever actually faces a penalty, that is.
I still don't really know what happened--but I'll take it!--Richie Porte, on Stage 11
his response would
(even should, i’d say) be these are allegations about past behavior and not doubts about current doping.
Vaughters is handling this correctly
He probably heard this and chuckled, cuz he knew all of this all along probably. If anyone even slightly involved needs not to concern themselves, I think its Zabriskie and Vaughters because the past issues have less of an effect on their image in my mind. I get that it could tarnish Garmin’s message, but I honestly don’t feel like it does at all, because this is such old news, anyone could’ve looked back and saw this was most likely what was going on.
Doubt he chuckled
At the very best, I think it would be “oh, holy crap”.
Even if he stonewalls, this does not help cycling, his team or himselfm,; and has the potential to put everyone in a really bad place
Ok fine
he didnt chuckle, bad terminology on my part. But, this can’t surprise any former US Postal rider, or cycling manager of past or present. My point is that Vaughters probably is not or should not be concerned over one of his riders past infedelities (imo of course).
One of the interesting things about the allegations made
The NY Daily News article suggested that he says he saw the whole team involved in 2004. There’s plenty of big names in cycling there.
Then the Phonak stuff. Who was involved in that? What have they done since?
The implications, for the teams they have since worked with or still work with, mean that a lot of riders/DSs/trainers/owners/bus drivers are concerned with this story. Whether or not he’s telling the truth, that gets very interesting. And, truth or not, he now has, I imagine, plenty of enemies.
I think he is past the point of caring what the cycling establishment thinks of him
He has been frozen out, he is all sorts of emotional pain, he has to be massively conflicted internally from the clash of mennonite culture versus pro “preparation”, his life is a mess, he has no personal support system, and did someone say he had an alcohol problem?
none of the above, of course, means that what he is saying is untrue (although it will be used to hurt him). Just think he has done this as an emotional, not rational thing.
On one of the cyclingnews forums
One of the emails
2002: I was instructed on how to use Testosterone patches by Johan Bruyneel
during the During the Dauphine Libere in June, after which I flew on a
helicopter with Mr Armstrong from the finish, I believe Grenoble, to San
Mauritz Switzerland at which point I was personally handed a box of 2.5 mg
patches in front of his wife who witnessed the exchange. About a week
later, Dr Ferrari performed an extraction of half a liter of blood to be
transfused back into me during the Tour de France. Mr Armstrong was not
witness to the extraction but he and I had lengthy discussions about it on
our training rides during which time he also explained to me the evolution
of EPO testing and how transfusions were now necessary due to the
inconvenience of the new test. He also divulged to me at that time that in
the first year that the EPO test was used he had been told by Mr Ferrari,
who had access to the new test, that he should not use EPO anymore but he
did not believe Mr Farrari and contin
ued to use it. He later, while winning the Tour de Swiss, the month before
the Tour de France, tested positive for EPO at which point he and Mr
Bruyneel flew to the UCI headquarters and made a financial agreement with
Mr. Vrubrugen to keep the positive test hidden.
2003: After a broken hip in the winter, I flew to Gerona Spain where this
time two units (half a liter each) were extracted three weeks apart. This
took place in the apartment in which Mr. Armstrong lived and in which I was
asked to stay and check the blood temperature every day. It was kept in a
small refrigerator in the closet allong with the blood of Mr Armstrong and
George Hincapie and since Mr. Armstrong was planning on being gone for a few
weeks to train he asked me to stay in his place and make sure the
electricity didn’t turn off or something go wrong with the referigerator.
Then during the Tour de France the entire team, on two different occasions
went to the room that we were told and the doctor met us there to do the
transfusions. During that Tour de France I personally witnessed George
Hincapie, Lance Armstrong, Chechu Rubiera, and myself receiving blood
transfusions. Also during that Tour de France the team doctor would give my
room mate, George Hincapie an
d I a small syringe of olive oil in which was disolved andriol, a form of
ingestible testosterone on two out of three nights throughout the duration.
I was asked to ride the Vuelta a Espana that year in support of Roberto
Heras and in August, between the Tour and the Vuelta, was told to take EPO
to raise my hematocrit back up so more blood transfusions could be
performed. I was instructed to go to Lances place by Johan Bruyneel and get
some EPO from him. The first EPO I ever used was then handed to me in the
entry way to his building in full view of his then wife. It was Eprex by
brand and it came in six pre measured syringes. I used it intravenously for
several weeks before the next blood draw and had no problems with the tests
during the Vuelta. Also during this time it was explained to me how to use
Human Growth Hormone by Johan Bruyneel and I bought what I needed from Pepe
the team “trainer” who lived in Valencia along with the team doctor at that
time. While training for that Vuelta I spent a good deal of time training
with Matthew White and Michael Barry and shared the testosterone and EPO
that we had and discu
ssed the use thereof while training.
Again, during the Vuelta we were given Andriol and blood transfusions by the
team doctor and had no problems with any testing.
2004: Again the team performed two seperate blood transfusions on me, but
this time Bruyneel had become more paranoid and we did the draws by flying
to Belgium and meeting at an unknown persons appartment and the blood was
brought by “Duffy” who was at that time Johans assistant of sorts. The
second of which was performed on the team bus on the ride from the finish of
a stage to the hotel during which the driver pretended to have engine
trouble and stopped on a remote mountain road for an hour or so so the
entire team could have half a liter of blood added. This was the only time
that I ever saw the entire team being transfused in plain view of all the
other riders and bus driver. That team included Lance Armstrong, George
Hincapie and I as the only Americans.
2005: I had learned at this point how to do most of the transfusion
technicals and other things on my own so I hired Allen Lim as my assistant
to help with details and logistics. He helped Levi Leipheimer and I prepare
the transfusions for Levi and I and made sure they were kept at the proper
temperature. We both did two seperate transfusions that Tour however my
hematocrit was too low at the start so I did my first one a few days before
the start so as to not start with a deficit.
2006: Well you get the idea……. One thing of great signigicance is that
I sat down with Andy Riis and explained to him what was done in the past and
what was the risk I would be taking and ask for his permission which he
granted in the form of funds to complete the operation described. John
Lelangue was also informed by me and Andy Riis consulted with Jim Ochowitz
before agreeing.
There are many many more details that I have in diaries and am in the
process of writing into an intelligible story but since the position of USA
Cycling is that there have not been enough details shared to justify calling
USADA, I am writing as many as I can reasonably put into an email and share
with you so as to ascertain what is the process which USA Cycling uses to
proceed with such allegations.
Look forward to much more detail as soon as you can demonstrate that you can
be trusted to do the right thing.
Floyd Landis
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on May 20, 2010 6:28 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
If it's all true
It explains very clearly why ex-US Postals were often caught, but never when riding for US Postal
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on May 20, 2010 6:34 AM EDT up reply actions
To buy high tech centrifuges, wasn't it?
Not to be glib, but that man has BALLS. I almost admire him for it.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
It sounds more like other shoes
‘Cause this guy is droppin’ bombs like not seen since; I don’t know when.
Since Willy Voet & Festina
or Phillipe Gaumont, or Phillippe Simeoni, or Jesus Manzano
Vlaanderens Mooiste
smiles
this is an ex-winner of the TdF accusing LA, LL, DZ, and the entire US postal team of organized doping. He accuses Phonak management of organized doping. He accuses the UCI of corruption. It is quite specific and it is, if he is to be believed, only a teaser. To me this is bigger than the Festina case.
You won me over with the corruption part
otherwise, I just think it’s the English translation.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
Good! :)
Landis is a bigger name though. Certainly not more credible, but bigger.
Virenque never came clean.
Armstrong is a much bigger name than Virenque. Anyway, we can agree that this is big.
He did say he doped
but said it wasn’t with his knowledge or consent. Thus the mockery.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
He did, but for quite some time
he insisted that he was the only one in that team who did not dope. :) And the French housewifes all believed him? :)
Except bigger since it sounds like he has decided to sing like a canary
You know, it occurs to me – he may actually be TRYING to destroy cycling, or at least certain names within it.
by addict on May 20, 2010 6:45 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
How is it different from Voet?
Same story, different characters.
Gaummont dished just as completely, even mentioning the recreational drug habits of American riders on Cofidis.
The main difference is that this is in English and British Libel Tourism laws can’t keep it out of the press.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
we'll find out about that shortly, I'm afraid
one of the side effects of globalization. Where’s Sui?
But you will find...
That the BBC website does not mention LA, or any other cyclist other than Landis at all, in it’s reporting of this.
(Not that the BBC cares about Road Cycling anyway)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/8694452.stm
Bunch of slack-jawed faggots around here. This stuff will make you a god damned sexual Tyrannosaurus, just like me - Jens Voigt, Predator (1987)
interesting that they chose not to name names?
or was that because the average englishman wouldn’t know a cyclist except for Wiggins, Cavendish and Hoy?
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
your prejudices are showing sweety
giggle
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
Most Aussie journos are at least as bad..
some are probably even worse. This is what happens when Rupert Murdoch owns “news” agencies.
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
Hm, aren't they mutually exclusive terms?
Rupert Murdoch and “news” agencies
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
he's right though
and i’m british, so i can say it
"I was watching the Tour de France in 2005, just being a fan again. I thought, ‘you're a fucking idiot. You're a bike fan who gets to ride the Tour de France.'"
- david millar
The Guardian (which is the most cycle aware paper in the UK)
Leads with the Armstrong angle
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/may/20/floyd-landis-doping-tour
hmmm
and says more about McQuaid’s responses – didn’t see the “got a grudge against Armstrong” in the other ones, just that he had a grudge. Do you think McQuaid spoke to his predecessor before making his remarks?
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
Financial agreement with the UCI.
He later, while winning the Tour de Swiss, the month before
the Tour de France, tested positive for EPO at which point he and Mr
Bruyneel flew to the UCI headquarters and made a financial agreement with
Mr. Vrubrugen to keep the positive test hidden.
If this is true then the UCI has some explaining to do.
which means they will lie their way out of it
I’m sure I have heard a similar rumour before – just cant remember where
the fact that this attacks
just about everyone means it will be everyone against him. Good luck, Landis, you’re gonna need it. And also chapeau.
Not chapeau
The time to do this was in 2006. If he had done it then, I would have said “max respect for helping to lance the boil”. This is the act of a vengeful child who is trying to piss all over the pitch because he cant play any more.
oh well
everything after his positive test was terrible, you’re right. But better to do this now than never in my opinion. Takes a brave man – or one who feels he has nothing left to lose.
the latter, I think
A brave man would have faced up to this sooner, before spending $2m of (largely) other people’s money trying to clear his name, by (inter alia) undermining the safeguards of the sport and reminding Lemond of unspeakable things that happened to him.
To me, this is the act of a moral coward – but one that has got desparate and angry.
This guy should never more be seen as a hero to either side of the debate
Not a paragon certainly
but he has done the right thing.
People who find themselves in a bad situation, especially situations of their own making, and find a way to try and make it right are good models.
Or at least more useful models than those who have never fucked up. As I get older, I see the value in this more and more.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
i agree mostly but
also agree with koppenberg above. Not making him out to be a hero. Just said chapeau for this one act.
I sort of agree.
It depends I guess on where you think we are now with doping in cycling & – assuming you want a cleaner cycling – where you think it gets us. For instance – & part of me thinks I’m very naive in having the regard I do for them – were it to end by taking down Vaughters or whoever, I don’t know if it helps.
The problem with this whole thing is there is no legitimate mechanism where once you have doped you can stop doping (& admit it). & it’s hard to see how there could be. You can only stop & hope. But then maybe people haven’t stopped.
"I was just trying to keep warm" - Ian Stannard on finishing third in KBK
I agree that would have been better
but better now then never.
I hope he takes Greg up on his offer to talk this out.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
+1
Publicly apologizing to Greg would be a good thing also.
by Ryan_Liles on May 20, 2010 7:09 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think coming clean, no matter when, is helpful to the cause of anti-doping.
And I don’t think this will be smooth sailing from now on for Mr Landis. He is in for a storm. Chapeau for taking that risk.
Perhaps this is all true
And I’ve read far too many rants from conspiracy nuts.
"i just see giro and get all spazzy" - Gavia
by TheFigurehead on May 20, 2010 7:02 AM EDT up reply actions
as well as being a rant, it does have a certain box-ticking quality about it
you can sort of see him making sure he’s nailed everyone he wants to
"I was just trying to keep warm" - Ian Stannard on finishing third in KBK
Yep - agree totally
Problem is, the fact that he is out to get them doesnt make them innocent.
Plus, I wonder what the papers have seen which they are NOT publishing – you would hope they have done a little due diligence to make sure they are not simply reprinting the libellous rantings of a mad man
Armstrong's ex
It’s interesting that Landis makes sure he mentions Lance’s ex witnessing doping on at least two occasions. I assume that means she’d be involved in (potential) investigation/hearing. Not sure if Lance will be looking forward to that.
Ô col Bayard, Ô Tourmalet, à côté du Galibier, vous êtes de la pale et vulgaire bibine !
I think he is trying to put as many people on the hook and open to investigation as possible
It feels calculated to me – “look, go talk to HER”
it may be true
but god his grammar’s bad
by thebongolian on May 20, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Hloy hell
Specific, detailed allegations with names / actions. Plus specific allegations of sporting fraud and corruption against Bruyneel. There is enough here for any journo who wants to to start looking and verifying for himself. Plane records, hotel stays etc etc. Plus – an ex wife is involved? Better hope she isnt bitter…
The email doesn’t sound totally coherent – especially the 2006 paragraph. but i he can back any of these things up, Pandora’s box is well and truly open.
And an allegation about Michael Barry? Lets see how Dave Brailsford reacts. Also, Barry and Millar are very good mates. Be interesting to see how Barry reacts.
Christ – some of these guys are amongst the nicest guys in the peloton.
Are you really so surprised about Michael Barry?
I think he’s a nice guy & an admirable rider. But in that team, in that era…
"I was just trying to keep warm" - Ian Stannard on finishing third in KBK
You are right
We all have our blind spots.
It was the black and white photography, the emphasis on hard work and the friendship with Millar, I guess
But as you say, that team, that era
but remember Millar is not the same guy he was back then (at least I hope not)
I doubt very much Barry is either, you know?
"I was just trying to keep warm" - Ian Stannard on finishing third in KBK
and don't lets forget
that the hard work, scientific training, suffering, sacrifice, et. al. weren’t neutralized by the dopage. The doping just made it possible to suffer more.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
Agree with that
Am simply saying that the blind spot was irrational, not rational.
Civetta was right to say “TTTE”
i can never get over
how people make some sort of equation between niceness and doping or not doping. Given the culture that has existed in cycling for a long time, i really think how nice you are has zero to do with whether you doped or not. Now, there may be a very few people who are exceptionally moral who didn’t dope and sacrificed their career over it. But i think the avg nice guy went ahead and went along.
by yeehoo on May 20, 2010 7:14 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Think you are dead right
But because we think dopers = bad guys, we like to think that the guys we think are nice guys are not dopers.
It’s a mental heuristic – and one that is a mistake (says they guy who made it)
Couldn't agree more
its the “banality of evil,” i suppose (I like the term). Essentially, these riders had to compete, had to earn their contracts, and give back something to their sponsors. They are ordinary men, either being forced or coersed by management or dollar signs to get that edge. It wasn’t the devil in them coming out to make them make bad decisions, it was what had to be done so they could compete, and protect the livlihood of themselves, and the finacial stability of their families. Blame the culture if anything, but that can’t be pinned down so its not an easy sell.
that’s not very nice of you
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on May 20, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
anyone else getting the urge to save a copy of this thread
in case Chris has to pull it, in response to any sort of “cease-and-desist” type order?
Paranoid? Maybe not.
I say: Go with your urge!
libel / defamation suit
they can be filed in the UK (e.g), where “truth is no defense” because this page can be read there. If someone has the time, money, and motivation to track down all the places where the letter is posted, and jump on them all. I’m thinking many people do have the time, money and motivation in this case.
O/T- but the UK libel law may be up for review now we have a new government
people are finally getting the joke that it is bad news…
there are actually
a number of good things coming out of the new gov’t (say, “ending the culture of spying on our citizens”). But on balance . . .
hmmm... only one government (so far) has my finger print & my credit card number... ;-)
(I’ll stop there)
"I was just trying to keep warm" - Ian Stannard on finishing third in KBK
haha
though if government still has my fingerprints I will be very upset as I ticked the box asking that they be destroyed ;-)
"I was just trying to keep warm" - Ian Stannard on finishing third in KBK
our government [roll eyes]
"I was just trying to keep warm" - Ian Stannard on finishing third in KBK
The amazing thing was
I had to collect up the finger print thingys from various other witnesses to send to the police & I was the only one who had ticked that box. Everyone else had ticked the other box.
"I was just trying to keep warm" - Ian Stannard on finishing third in KBK
The line UK law takes on libel isn't too bad
namely the insistence that you have some sort of proof before you start throwing around allegations. Compare that for example with the sort of shit someone like Kitty Kelley publishes, claiming that she does have a source somewhere, but journalistic privilege means she doesn’t have to name them. The problem is that it is far too easy for rich people to gratuitously ramp up the costs to a silly level, plus the courts are far too willing to accept jurisdiction on the most tenuous grounds where they should be telling people to sue in the place where the bulk of publication took place.
Excellent analysis
It is the scope / cost creep / use of legal costs to stifle debate which is the problem
That's true.
But the fact that it discriminates hugely in favour of people with power & money undermines that aspect of it.
"I was just trying to keep warm" - Ian Stannard on finishing third in KBK
To me, with the things I heard over the years from (no name) ex pros & local top amateurs,
and from the things that Walsh et al. have written, the l’Equipe EPO test findings, et cetera et cetera; to me all these facts are not surprising. They all dope. The biggest badass doper wins. That has been the way since the beginning of cycling.
What is new to me is that big-name Landis talks, and talks about all the other big names. I like it. I hope others chime in. Hamilton, for example; might help his mental sanity as well.
A agree that we have heard these facts before
Just veiled, and accompanied by denials.
This is on the record, specific, targetted, and (presumably) sourced. So we all instinctively recognise what he is talking about – and now have the names / places. There is finally a body within the white chalk outline
Ted - don't take this as a rant at you; its a rant at the situation... BUT
This “They all dope” argument really, really, pisses me off. In amongst the professional frauds and cheaters who drag their sport through the mud, there are some guys who try to do it straight (there must be, musnt there?).
These guys know that cheating is possible, that others do it, and yet chose not to. For that, they get laughed at by their colleagues, put physcially through the wringer as they try to make their non doped bodies keep up with those on rocket fuel, and garner significantly less money / fame / success than they could have had.
And from us, the public to whose ethics they make this sacrifice? Yep – they are tarred with “they all do it”. NO THEY DO NOT. There are clean riders out there – there must be. We should praise and respect the guys who do this sport clean, and pillory the guys who dope – and who put us all in this position. That is the least we owe the guys who sacrifice their careers on the alter of our morals and the sport’s inability control its own cancer.
agree
and many of the non dopers …… never make it as pros …. but perhaps could have had careers if the dopers didn’t exist.
In fact, if it’s true that all pros dope …. then by definition, the best clean rider in the world has been denied a pro career.
muggito
well, not sure about now
but let’s say for the years ‘95 to ’05 (and most of the names in this case come from back then) – no one knows of course but let’s say 98% of the pro peloton was doped. Okay, they didn’t “all” dope. But given the power of epo and the fact that almost everyone doped, don’t you have to change your mindset a little bit? Pillory someone in that situation? Doesn’t make sense to me. Better to walk away from the sport – if you want to pillory everyone except for the 2% at the back of the peloton …. Seems like mostly you just have to hope for a better system.
I guess you can argue that 98% didn’t dope but we sure have heard that from an awful lot of sources – i mean there is so much smoke we can’t breathe.
I think 98% is vastly too high a number...
(a) it argues that the tests are totally ineffective – so they are not tests in any meaninful scientific way
(b) it’s based on nothing except the assumption that I am railing against
© have you noticed that they guys who says “everyone does it” also happen to usually be convicted dopers? Quite a lot of ex post facto rationalisation there…
i’m sure there are a lot of dopers. I try to believe that there are a lot of clean ones as well. Otherwise, since we are still lacking decent tests for things like HGH, we have to assume that everyone is STILL doping…
before 2000 or 2001
they didn’t even have a test for epo. How’s that for ineffective? And yeah, i’d say the tests are ineffective. That is exactly the heart of the problem.
It’s not only based on riders who were caught but also on other people involved like doctors. Also pro riders who straddled the pre epo and post epo eras, they say the same thing – Lemond is not the only one.
And who else would come out and say everyone dopes except someone who has been caught? Those who were/are doping and haven’t been caught don’t come out and say that.
I would say that is a cousel of dispair
Also – what it implies is that i could write a list of 100 top line bike riders and ask you “does each of them dope”? And you would have to answer “basically, yes”
So, to cause trouble…
Millar (now)
Cavendish
Wiggins
Schlecklet
Jens!
CVV
Which dope?
not have a go at you personally – but the argument does traduce the reputations of pretty much everone involved in cycling
but if it's true
that 98% were/are doping and you prefer to close your eyes to that – well nice for you – you can believe in your heros – but if it’s not real …
Not closing my eyes
And I dont kid myself that doping is still going on.
But I would like to celebrate what I think are the non dopers, and believe it is possible to be fast and clean simultaneously. The clean riders deserve that, IMHO
I'm in the "innocent until caught doping" pack....
because if I had to think that everybody was still doping, and therefore cheating, I would struggle to watch even a race as exciting as this Giro has been, without a lot of scepticism
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
I chose to watch Schlecklet race and assume he is clean
Those who believe in the “all do it” line basically can’t do that…
i don't believe that all or practically all
riders are doping now. But i guess i wouldn’t be surprised if something some day makes me change my mind. I get the idea things have changed a fair bit since 2000. How much better is hard to say.
But something i can do that you maybe can’t is like a rider even though he maybe/probably doped at some point in his career. So there! ;) (tone is kidding around here – i quite like your comments, addict)
I agree.
I sit in the you get one change category (I like Vino as a rider and was not happy when he doped), but haven’t yet had to go through one of my favourites being permanently tossed due to drug use…so I’ll just hope!
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
Don't worry - i get the tone, and this is a really tricky area to talk about
I have trouble with people who dope and endanger the sport – ie those who pre 06 doped and didnt confess, and those that dope now. If schecklet was doping, it could well be my “walk away” point. And would be very sad about it.
I am somewhat inconsistent, I admit, and I suspect speaking english helps me like you.
But I like Millar (confession) and struggle with Vino (no confession). The idiots who get busted now I want hounded out of our sport. This goes on much longer there will not be any professional cycling…
yep, I can agree with that too..
I don’t think there are too many excuses nowadays – what with all the publicity. However, there will always be somebody who tests positive and they don’t know why – because human error will occur no matter how much we would like to think otherwise…
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
I don't know about the blood passport
But I think the chances of TWO false positives (A and B sample) for EPO are vanishingly small – although agree that you can get one eg Riccos GF.
The trouble is that the test isnt sensitive enough, not that it is too sensitive
Three things
1. I don’t get this endanger the sport line. What’s more important? The sport, the people, or the underlying principles involved?
2. If the sport is truly dangerous, change the sport. (I think this will have to happen with American football—and it won’t be the first time, either)
3. A lot of us spectators have a lot more of US invested in these arguments than we do in learning about what really happens or happened. (and I said US because I include myself in that observation).
The sport dies if the sponsors walk away
nearly happened in 06. Could still happen (tho I don’t think this would be the trigger)
That's one view
But I like the sport and want it to continue – so would quite like the dopers to stop doping rather than the sport to die…
I'm agreeing with addict a lot tonight
which is a little weird (kidding)
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
been there!
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
Nope
I would like people to take part in this sport and stick by the rules.
I genuinely don’t think that is that big of an ask… :)
i was talking about the period from say '95 to '05
i like to think things are better now. But bring up any rider name from that period, no matter much i or anyone else likes him and yeah, i’d say they doped. I’ve gotten over worrying about it.
And i agree that, say i’m wrong about then – or that now the number is much lower than 98% – then i agree with your basic point.
Let's just go by what has been alleged
re systematic team doping:
Telekom/T-Mobile
Kelme
ONCE/Liberty Seguros
and now
USPS/Discovery
Phonak
Maybe not 98% . . . but more than 20% . . .
and remember that “testing” for many years was essentially a “speed limit”
25% and 85% are also very different numbers.
And if some teams did it for their top guy once every couple of years to keep a sponsor, or to pop someone back to their regular strength after injury faster than normal (i.e. exceptional circumstances) and other did it habitually, I sort of make that distinction, too. Not that one’s right, or healthy, and the other wrong. But in one case, we were looking mostly at doped racing, and on the other, we were looking mostly at undoped racing from that team / person. As a fan, that makes a difference to me.
There is always at least one guy who is clean as a whistle who has talent
so its just a question of whom.
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
by Vlaanderen90 on May 20, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
You are right, it was an emotional statement
and of course not strictly true. Let’s say it reflects my sentiment whenever doubts arise.
True enough
Hard to ignore this whole furor though
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on May 20, 2010 7:05 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not suggesting we ignore it ;-)
I’m just suggesting we don’t ignore the Giro, either.
"I was just trying to keep warm" - Ian Stannard on finishing third in KBK
timing is a shame
we are having one of the most incredible races evah – chris and gav wrote some nice pieces on other threads after an incredible day – and here we are in dopage. But this is huge too. We’ll get back to the giro.
I think Chris needs a new rule
Landis talk on Landis threads only
This is going to roll and roll… and if it pokes its head up in a live thread will make the whole thing toxic
by addict on May 20, 2010 7:05 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
there pretty much already is a rule about no doping during live race threads
after the race, okay. during the race, no.
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
wonder when the riders and DS's first heard rumors of this
could it possibly have played into yesterday’s complete mental breakdown in the Giro?
Anyone else feel bad
for the “Trust but Verify” guy today? I always thought he was mistaken, but damn.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
Ah, but note that Landis is still claiming his innocence on that point.
“Sure, I used testosterone, but not at that Tour—where I did dope, but not with testosterone. It’s still not fair!”
Okay, paraphrased, but here’s what he said in the Ford piece:
As for his own positive test, Landis still maintains the result was inaccurate and he had not used synthetic testosterone during the 2006 season — although he now admits he used human growth hormone during that time. At this point, he does not want to dwell on any of the issues he and his lawyers hammered at during his case, he said.
“There must be some other explanation, whether it was done wrong or I don’t know what,” he said.
“The problem I have with even bothering to argue it is [that] I have used testosterone in the past and I have used it in other Tours, and it’s going to sound kind of foolish to say I didn’t.”
Yeah, exactly.
I still don't really know what happened--but I'll take it!--Richie Porte, on Stage 11
He's worried about perjury charges
And I think, on this point at least, we can call him a lieing toe rag
Same as Ben Johnson who got popped for stuff he didn't take, according to him
He admitted he took all sorts of shit, but not Stanozolol. Even a guilty man can be framed.
or have a bad test
Fignon admits to using some peds but one of his positive tests he absolutely denies he was using anything then.
Accept the good with the bad then
Sean Kelly got popped once even though the sample he gave wasn’t his urine, but some he’d scrounged off a mechanic. said mechanic was taking all sorts of stuff to help him stay awake.
well i always thought
that regardless of his testosterone issue, he had been using epo and blood – making the whole thing seem ridiculous from no matter what point of view you looked at it. I never thought that a little testosterone gave him that ride that day up the joux plane.
his miracle Joux Plane stage
reeked of Blood Doping as it followed a complete bonk on Glandon
muggito
But didn't Kohl say
that the day after you got the blood was a bit rough, and that it was only from the next day that you felt the good effects
don't
I don’t feel bad — I just didn’t think the testosterone charge made sense, and I still don’t like any of what I learned about case management and adjudication. None of this is really surprising, but it is sad for a lot of individuals and for the sport.
TBV
http://trustbut.blogspot.com for Landis news, research, and comment.
Ed Pickering just pointed out on Twitter
that Armstrong didn’t win the Tour de Suisse in 2002
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
Expect some factual errors or bad grammar
They will poke holes in everything they can
The question is whether there is fundamental truth to what FL is saying – or if it is 100%, from whole cloth, bollocks.
The details dont hugely matter.
Details do matter.
People who want to discredit Landis will use mistakes like that for all that it is worth.
From their perspective - yes
From those of us whose interest is “has the last decade of cycling been a total joke” – I don’t care if FL confused TdS with the D-L. I care if he is directionally correct
here's a question
Does anyone think FL is simply making this stuff up? It’s a possibility – just want to give the opportunity for anyone to say “yep, it is all lies”?
I don't necessarily think he's making it all up
but I sure as hell don’t think he’s a paragon of credibility. He’s a bitter man with axes to grind, and unfortunately doesn’t seem fully in control of his details. Once doubts get raised, any particular point can be discredited even if the gist of what he’s saying is true.
I still don't really know what happened--but I'll take it!--Richie Porte, on Stage 11
suspect not.
This extreme-precision-with-errors and a comment on having difficulty writing it all up, and a mild suggestion of paranoia (not that he’s not going to be threatened, but you can be paranoid even when they ARE out to get you) sort of suggested someone in a blue haze of something other than cigarette smoke, coming to a decision, typing for hours and hitting “send.” Only to miss several details.
If he’s lying, he’s deeply disturbed in ways beyond what we’ve seen. If he’s telling the truth he’s telling it the way I’d expect him to tell it. So the second answer is somehow more believable, but not the only possibility.
my first and only comment on the subject
no, the gist is most probably right, but we’ll probably never know for sure.
"I was watching the Tour de France in 2005, just being a fan again. I thought, ‘you're a fucking idiot. You're a bike fan who gets to ride the Tour de France.'"
- david millar
Turns out his details were not incorrect.
It was I who was unable to read properly.
Note to Floyd:
always check CQ before writing your mails.. LA won the dauphiné in 2002. Did Landis get those small shit races mixed up?
Could well have done
That email is clearly a mildly emotional rant. Seriously, I do wonder if he had a bottle of JD next to him when writing it…
he's saying lance told him about it in
by quarantanamo on May 20, 2010 7:55 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
oops...
Told him the story iafter the 2002 dl
by quarantanamo on May 20, 2010 7:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You may very well be right. I will quote the passage and put
it up in a reply to Irish’s post.
Actually Landis may be referring to the 2001 tour of Switzerland.
He also divulged to me at that time that in
the first year that the EPO test was used he had been told by Mr Ferrari,
who had access to the new test, that he should not use EPO anymore but he
did not believe Mr Farrari and contin
ued to use it. He later, while winning the Tour de Swiss, the month before
the Tour de France, tested positive for EPO at which point he and Mr
Bruyneel flew to the UCI headquarters and made a financial agreement with
Mr. Vrubrugen to keep the positive test hidden.
He speaks about the first year that the EPO test was in use. This may have been in 2001. Maybe Landis has his facts str8 after all.
the email didn't say armstrong rode the 2002 tds. just that he (la) tested positive for epo during the tds he won (2001), or that's what la/jb told landis.
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Oh I've been saying this forever...
…if we keep trying to deal with this whole past punitively, we’re going to get at best part of the truth and a very inconsistent application of justice.
Can't.
Landis says one of the reasons he’s talking now is that all of his allegations are still within the statute of limitations. If any current rider admits he doped within the past eight years, he would be subject to suspension (note that Zabel and Aldag didn’t confess until they were safely beyond the statute of limitations).
I still don't really know what happened--but I'll take it!--Richie Porte, on Stage 11
I think speculation of LA retiring before the TdF is off base.
He’s brazened this sort of thing out before, so nothing new there. Far more likely would be the TdF organizers disinviting the RS squad. As this is LA’s last TdF, it would be paybck for his actions and it would play well in France.
I certainly would view it favorably.
The money is spent and they already ARE associated with it
they may brazen it out.
I remember the Liberty Mutual guy (Liberty Seguros) talking about Manolo Saiz as “Mr. Anti-Doping”, so anything is possible from the sponsors POV.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
This now
makes me wonder if they came up with the bike doping in the hopes
that news outlets would either confuse the two stories, or go with the "fun" one which could then be cleanly disproven. Too conspiracy-ish?
P.S. posted this by accident in the live thread, deep apologies
Excuse me3, but can I just ask the obvious question here: why do you people love cancer so much?
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Do not mention his Johnson!
That is below the belt.
Only some of it.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
oh, my
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on May 20, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
btw.. Why is everybody Mr. Landis? Mr; Armstrong?
Is it something American? Does it contribute to the dramatic?
Wierd jounalistic convention
which changes completely when talking about sports – where the participants lose their honorific “Mr”
It makes it more 'serious'.... 'this is REAL news, not sport' is the implication
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Kimmage was on RTE radio earlier. Not sure if that’s Geo-blocked but they might podcast the segment later.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
They're all effing at it and I hate the lot of them for destroying my dream
Sniff
You don’t have to listen to know…
Honestly? Nothing very interesting. He’s likely to be on Newstalk after seven this evening, you might hear more then. LA should have come out with his denial by then.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
HE doesn't actually have a whole lot to add to this debate
He wasn’t around when it happened, he isn’t an investigative journalist, and most people in cycling won’t talk to him because he is a dick to them
All he will have is “back in the day, I shoved an amphetamine suppository up my ass” stories
Next question
Who – if any – will crack and co-oberate? I guess it is most likely to be someone who has left the scene for good.
Frankie Andreu? Tyler H?
I still think this has a reasonable chance of ending in court – which puts everyone between a rock and a hard place. I don’t think FL will shut up without being made to (he sounds frustrated that the book hasnt been thrown at anyone yet) and he has the public persona to just keep broadcasting.
And I bought this F@#$#g book, awhile ago. I wont my money back!
We are Cyclists, we are the special breed, we fear nothing, but our own weaknesses! ( from my DS pep talk, long, long, long time ago.)
Positively True?
I still don't really know what happened--but I'll take it!--Richie Porte, on Stage 11
Not going to spend a penny on anything bearing his name.
We are Cyclists, we are the special breed, we fear nothing, but our own weaknesses! ( from my DS pep talk, long, long, long time ago.)
FL name, I was talking about his Efen book.
We are Cyclists, we are the special breed, we fear nothing, but our own weaknesses! ( from my DS pep talk, long, long, long time ago.)
hehe
yeah, there should be some kind of reimbursement program ;)
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on May 20, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Most of this is about as surprising as a cardinal coming out with the shocking truth that the Pope is catholic
by William H on May 20, 2010 8:00 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
What is surprised me the most, that from all the people in the world, people on this forum acting so shocked and surprised!
We are Cyclists, we are the special breed, we fear nothing, but our own weaknesses! ( from my DS pep talk, long, long, long time ago.)
The suprise...
… is that it is Landis, and that he has gone so public so dramatically.
Most people here (I suspect) would have said USPS, TTTE
i think you need to distinguish
the difference between:
1. Whether people thought Landis doped
2. People surprised that he is going public in such accusatory detail
The first is no surprise to many, the second …..
muggito
Whatever people thought that he doped?. Do you know anyone in this chat room that so naïve?
We are Cyclists, we are the special breed, we fear nothing, but our own weaknesses! ( from my DS pep talk, long, long, long time ago.)
not sure who holmovka was asking about
if it’s armstrong and/or landis – there are plenty who believe they were clean. Not sure how many in this chat room but i would think at least some.
There were some voices for Landis, he's American after all.. Sorry
Armstrong would be phenomenal.. But after I heard he won the Ironman on the age of 18!? I had little hope
You keep making that mistake
of saying that Landis’ perceived supporters here are doing it because he’s American. More projection on your part than reality, I’d say.
there's always some degree of homerism in a country, you're right in that.
But the shorthand does not work, because it has also made plenty of Americans extra pissed with him. And then there are plenty of us who don’t get all that homerish over Americans (or not exclusively over Americans, anyway.)
UCI has apparently finished its investigation on the alleged "financial agreement"...
Current UCI president Pat McQuaid was quick to deny that the international federation had accepted funds to conceal information about a positive test when contacted by Cyclingnews. "It’s completely false and completely untrue and we’ve made contact with a lawyer and will take appropriate action," said McQuaid.
Axes are grinded.
'ground'...( I want you to do well in your exams).
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
In my heart of hearts I knew that...
Does this mean I am grounded?
No... you were mature and learned from your mistake
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
I was blinded by blinded but I knew it was wrong... :(
English is nonsensical.
No argument from me there... but endlessly fascinating because of that.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Very regrettable error
as it diverted attention away from the UCI handling of the accusation.
All good narratives allow us time to breathe out...
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Surely that would be worstest ;)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
She'll appreciate our effort..
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
He probably sells the appropriate mincer...
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Also, Landis hates cycling!
UCI President Pat McQuaid told the Associated Press that Landis’ allegations were “scandalous and mischievous.”
“These guys coming out now with things like this from the past is only damaging the sport. If they’ve any love for the sport they wouldn’t do it,” he said.
"It's just a bike race" - Frank Schleck
About nice guy Levi
From a Facebook friend:
On the Landis ‘naming others’ thing…was anyone else in the Nat’l Elite Crit (Columbus, Ohio 94-95?). Race was so hard only 21 guys finished. Jason Snow & I sat on Levi’s wheel as he lapped the main field to a lead grouip (at 34 mph) to win; was DOPED to the Gills, got busted, but signed w/ Saturn the same week anyway. Condoning system?
He (Levi) was stripped of the Nat’l Champ Title which wasd given to Chris Wherry by default.
I believe it was Ephedra is what he got busted for and got a 3 week suspension...
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
by Vlaanderen90 on May 20, 2010 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions
yes, I was being facetious
He used the allergy med excuse to avoid major sanction, but had to surrender the jersey and title.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
facebook friend might be a bit off there
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
by Vlaanderen90 on May 20, 2010 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions
plus Levi signed with Saturn in '98
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
by Vlaanderen90 on May 20, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
At first I wanted my $75
contribution to the FFF back. On second thought, though, If FL keeps up with exposing and naming names, it’ll all be worth it to me. Temporarily keeping my profile photo.
Seriously - I'm amazed more people haven't had that reaction
This guy solicited funds from the public to pursue a case that was totally false.
meh
he was selling a pleasant fiction that people wanted to believe.
It’s not like the actual details weren’t available.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
Not exactly.
There were – and are – serious procedural and structural problems with the system. That was my problem then, and my problem now.
Yep - but I would like that arguement pursued by someone who wasnt guilty as charged
and who also wasn’t throwing quite so much shit on innocent bystanders.
I mean: Lemond’s childhood – wtf?
by addict on May 20, 2010 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
agreed on all points
Unfortunately, just like most case law, we don’t get to pick the facts/people that develop the law.
From Andy Rihs:
Andy Rihs denies all claims made by Floyd Landis
Zurich, 20 May 2010 – Business man and bicycle sports’ supporter Andy Rihs heard with great surprise the recent declaration made by the former bicycle racer Floyd Landis and resolutely denies these allegations in all aspects. Andy Rihs states that upon admission into the former racing team Floyd Landis personally agreed to honour our Code and not to engage in any illicit practices. Until detection of his doping abuse during the Tour de France in 2006 the entire team was convinced that he kept this promise. “Neither I nor the management of the team knew that Floyd Landis was doped” stated Andy Rihs. “His present statements according to which I was informed are lies”. It probably is a last tragic attempt of Landis to once again gain public recognition whilst step by step he has lost this in the last few years. “It is sad to have to see such a thing” said Andy Rhis, but at the same time Andy Rhis feels that his honor is severely hurt by such untruthful statements.
To the editorial office:
Andy Rihs requests to understand that he does not wish to comment any further on this matter and will therefore not be available for interviews.
Floyd better not implicate borderline innocent people
or he’ll undermine his accusations against the provably guilty ones.
If FL does have a diary (that isnt totally delusional) that backs up his claims, is that enough?
This is an emergency – IS THERE A LAWYER IN THE ROOM?
Suspect not… but the smoke now has a resounding crackle to it
He's already said that LA's wife witnessed the events...
Didn’t we also hear similar statements already from certain soigniors, drivers, mechanics – yes, all slandered…but a diary which corroborates this. Come on? We all don’t want this to be true…but secretly, don’t we just know it is?
by JustJoshinYa on May 20, 2010 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh - I think we all know it is...
… we are simply debating whether it will stand up in court / wider public opinion
Need to have a house cleaning of management...
Sponsors are gonna walk away…
by JustJoshinYa on May 20, 2010 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Been there, done that.
And to be fair, this is the same shit via a different shovel.
nothing from post 06, thank goodness
Will she talk though? Will his former team mates talk?
We have already seen what the UCI wants to do with this info. They want it all to go away.
Hmmm - ex-wife
Anyone want to stake their careers on one of those? Definition of a loose cannon, if you ask me
Also: not likely to put financial stability of her kids at risk
My expectation: the wagons will circle and the line will be held.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
She has kept her mouth shut before
didn’t she give a deposition in the infamous lawsuit where Betsy Andreu said LA admitted to his doctor?
and given that that's the case,
she’d also do serious damage to herself by speaking. I say the wagons get circled quick.
Too bad, because (if there is any truth to this) literally anyone else would have more credibility on this than Landis.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on May 20, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
speaking generally an ex-wife response to allegations against someone
depends on
how much he pays her
and / or how much she’s carrying torch
and above all on how much, and what, he had on her. Even something silly but embarrassing about their private lives will do.
In this specific case, I figure Armstrong’s not the sort of guy to forget (or fail to document) something useful about a S.O.
Shit, they have three kids together
why do you think he needs something more than that?
I still don't really know what happened--but I'll take it!--Richie Porte, on Stage 11
The International Cycling Union has learned of the declarations made by Mr Floyd Landis and published in the Wall Street Journal.
The UCI regrets that Mr Landis has publicly accused individuals without allowing sufficient time for the relevant US authorities to investigate.
An impartial investigation is a fundamental right, as Mr Landis will understand having contested, for two years, the evidence of his breach of the Anti-Doping Rules in 2006.
The UCI will leave it to the individuals accused by Mr Landis to take the position they see fit with regards to this issue.
muggito
Ha! "Relevant US authorities." US authorities are way out of their juristiction in Aigle, Switzerland..
The thing is that L accuses the UCI of corruption. “Vrubrugge” (is he speaking of former UCI president (1991-2005) Hein Verbruggen?) allegedly accepted money to keep LA’s postive test a secret. Seems the UCI has already made up their mind. They will fight Landis, and deny deny deny.
Are you suggesting we all sit up
and wait for Chris to rejoin?
Bugger that. Attack!
Also, VINO4EVAH.
I think this news will cheer Vino up after yesterday... a lot
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
If Tyler or Frankie will
vouch for any of the specific details, this is going to get real ugly for JB/Lance. Sooner or later you had to figure something like this was going to happen. If indeed there was organized doping at Postal/Disco, it would be impossible to keep all mouths taped shut indefinitely. Maybe this admission will pave the way for others to finally come forward. This could be the tip of the iceberg.
Twitter username: FitTechEric
by The Team Chef on May 20, 2010 10:14 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Frankie most likely would...after everything that he has done all ready why not just finish it out with everything he knows
I mean he is still in the game with being a DS for Kenda p/b Geargrinder but he will lay everything he has against Lance most likely
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
by Vlaanderen90 on May 20, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Safety in numbers.
I don’t think anyone has wanted to be the lone wolf going up against the pack. Now that someone has finally shared specifics, others may be willing to, as well.
Twitter username: FitTechEric
by The Team Chef on May 20, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
wasn't there some kind of Armstrong/Andreu reconciliation at some point?
seem to remember that
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on May 20, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Pay attention to the timing.
Neither Andreu nor Hamilton were ever teammates with Landis at Postal. They can share their own stories of what happened when they were on the team, but they can’t corroborate Landis’s specifics because they weren’t there at the time.
I still don't really know what happened--but I'll take it!--Richie Porte, on Stage 11
this might just be the start
of a huge set of admissions from the postal/disco people, still not sure how I’d feel about that
"I would say my biggest flaw, my Achilles heel is my tireless work ethic"-Kenny Powers
hehe
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on May 20, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
wish he would though...
it’s a bad smell hanging over the whole sport – of course, Floyd just trumped it with that Icelandic volcano type stench, but there you go…
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
It will be interesting for sure.
They could just deny it all for now. I remember wondering in the past when doping came up in the Tour and the Vs broadcast reacted to it, if it was Trautwig that was the most upset and got the rest of them to be kinds objective.
At any rate, we’ll see.
I expect they'll parrot Armstrong's line
though, as you say, we’ll see.
I wish Bahati would have gotten a ride at ToC now...
might have been treated to some featherweight fist fights
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
This is why most rational people who care about the sport wanted Lance to STAY retired
Hero worshippers aside, I think most of us already came to the conclusion long ago that Lance doped repeatedly during his career. And since we all know that doping stories are all the rage in journalistic circles nowadays Lance should have had the class and brains to take his millions and STAY retired.
Now, in the midst of a great race like the Giro, all the discussion is going to focus on him again, which in some sick, depraved way he might actually crave.
If I’m correct about that he’ll have succeeded in getting his attention fix, only it will have come at the expense of whatever dignity he still had left.
Slightly off-topic
I’m interested that Bonnie Ford wrote the ESPN piece.
And that makes me wonder what sort of response will be coming from Sally Jenkins.
Leaving aside the predictable blather from McQuaid, I’ll be interested to see how the co-opted journalists write this up. And because I respect her father a lot as a writer, I’ve always sorta given Sally Jenkins sort of a pass.
But there’s no one—not even Bob Roll—more invested in Planet Armstrong than Jenkins. But, she has recently started writing a weird sort of situational-ethics type of column (there’s one out in today’s WP about that Dr. Galea dude). So, it will interesting to see what she does with all of this.
That Lance would crave this kind of attention...
Is very far-fetched, I think; and completely impossible to prove.
And in any case, his staying retired would not have prevented Landis from doing what he’s doing.
Cycling will always be a beautiful sport no matter how many people disgrace it.--Christian Vande Velde
If anyone of you Landis talkers comes into my Giro threads I will swing like Cadel :)
oh and in case this turns out to be true there is plenty of room left on the EJBPMO bandwagon.
Giro...Giro.....Giro!!!!!!!!
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Well usually but California's switch to May has really helped its cause...
Giro...Giro.....Giro!!!!!!!!
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It comes from the invetion of ELPMO(everything Lance pisses me off)
the JB is for Bruyneel. I am the founder of this club and I assume it will increase in size here soon.
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A very worthy club indeed...
with JB included – always seemed to be a smirky sod…
"If winning isn't everything, then why do they keep score?" Unknown
Hi all
I should chime in as the gatekeeper here (sorta) —
1. Am way out of pocket today so I can’t meaningfully engage
2. From a very quick skim of this thread I can only say THANK YOU all for keeping it so respectful. This is by far the third rail of cycloblogging and the biggest threat to our most cherished asset, the site’s role as a place for healthy chat. Please proceed with this in mind.
3. If you see Landis/lance/doping chat in other threads, please gently direct that chat here or to other doping threads that occur. Gives people a chance to think about something else.
THANKS!
by Chris Fontecchio on May 20, 2010 11:39 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 21 recs
No need now that it is green
but for future reference, press the actions button and the rec
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This is why I play here - you guys always so helpful....
Not to mention you ignore my bad days..
"If winning isn't everything, then why do they keep score?" Unknown
I like cat-a-tar
sadly said cat is no longer with us – she succumbed to a nasty dose of tomcat bullying and was lost to me….after 20 years together…sniffle
Might have to change to new cat-a-tar(s) – she was so marvellous we had to replace her with 2!
"If winning isn't everything, then why do they keep score?" Unknown
note the new cat-a-tar!
Merlin is the mostly sealpoint greyish blob (he talks to me, quite a funny personality with quirks) – Smokey is the darker one (she loves me – more than the rest of my family and will follow me around)…
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
My dog likes cats
she keeps rushing over to them to tell them how great she thinks they are, but none of them ever stay to listen
I read the first line and though "oh oh"...
it is usually followed up with “barbecued” or with biscuits…LOL – but I know what you mean, my dog (I have a weimaraner) is now 13 and almost deaf/mostly blind, so she doesn’t understand what these 2 balls of strange hairiness is – quite funny to watch. But she’s always very gentle
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
It's like a marginalized mobster talking to the feds
His credibility is suspect, but only “members of the family” would know this information, and only one of them could break the omerta.
And at the next news conference, the spokesman for John Gotti, errrr I mean Lance, will go straight to the issue of Floyd’s credibility and betrayal and say no more than that.
MJB
great analogy
now i’m probably going to ‘rip off’ your analogy in my conversations later today.
"Race radios in Cat 4?"
by gravel road on May 20, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Well now I shall start a petition
to have Jan Ullrich be awarded all those Tour victories, I’m sure he was clean…
Giro...Giro.....Giro!!!!!!!!
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Start at the Laterne Rouge and work forward?
I know that goes against what I was saying earlier, but what the hell
The podium girls looked like they didn't have any muscle help
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IS the illegal at the Tour?
because it is surely allowed at the ToC..especially on stage 7
Giro...Giro.....Giro!!!!!!!!
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It may be
don’t they have a special jersey for “best silicon”? Or am I misinterpreting the most courageous jersey meaning?
Giro...Giro.....Giro!!!!!!!!
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Why are we not working for the ASO?
Giro...Giro.....Giro!!!!!!!!
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because their politics would drive you around the twist in about 5 seconds
and because they don’t love cycling…just the money it can generate
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
Right so we would change that
I would also move the Tour to Italy….I would then move the Vuelta to italy…followed by moving the Dauphine to Italy.
Giro...Giro.....Giro!!!!!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42
or maybe to Australia?
Coz we have the largest gathering of Italians outside of Italy (in Melbourne) and the weather is much nicer, and so are our beaches and our beer, the wine is catching up, food is marvellous (do I need to keep spruiking)?
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
But are there frantic arm movements?
and Cassani?
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most definitely need cassani (or gav would be heartbroken)
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
funny you should mention the hills..
I was thinking the other day that you can no longer win any of the Grand Tours without being a mountain goat, which I find a little disappointing – because the world’s best cyclists aren’t necessarily going to be mountain goats (think Cancellara, Boonen and men of their ilk).
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
I think Cance isnt that far away from being able to win a GT
Wiggins is an interesting role model for him…
He’s got other fish to fry, though
I seem to remember a quote from Cance
to the effect that he likes to eat too much to win a GT.
Is it
my writing is just awful this afternoon
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I'M DOPED!
there I admitted it…move on now
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Umm...must not panic...umm
no it was just me…and….FRINKING DID IT!!!!!
Ah fuck
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STFU Frinking
that news is even bigger than Landis, do we want to start a 100000000 comment speculation thread? Huh?
Giro...Giro.....Giro!!!!!!!!
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As a relatively (think post Lance)..
new fan of cycling – who finished second in the Lance years? Apart from Jan (coz my little brain remembers that)…
"If winning isn't everything, then why do they keep score?" Unknown
In reverse order
2005 – Basso
2004 – Kloden
2003 – Ullrich
2002 – Beloki
2001 – Ullrich
2000 – Ullrich
1999 – Zulle
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on May 20, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
We have 4 Tour victories!!!!
GIVE US OUR TOUR VICTORIES!!!!!
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TDF podiums
1999: Armstrong, Zulle, Escartin
2000: Armstrong, Ullrich, Beloki
2001: Armstrong, Ullrich, Beloki
2002: Armstrong, Beloki, Rumsas
2003: Armstrong, Ullrich, Vinokourov
2004: Armstrong, Kloden, Basso
2005: Armstrong, Basso, Ullrich
Is there a rider on this list who wasn’t at least suspected of something at a time?
Beloki?
Can’t remember whether tehre was anything against him. But mainly because it was before my time
Thank you wikipedia
In 2006, he was among those implicated in Operación Puerto, and was withdrawn from the Tour de France. However on July 26, he was cleared by Spanish officials of any wrongdoing
So suspected, yes, but wrongfully it seems
"Cleared" means they got a letter saying there was no active investigation against them.
Not really the same at all. Beloki was knee-deep in Puerto, mentioned in Document 28
with annotations of HMG-Lepori, IGF-1, patches of testosterone, growth hormone, EPO and anabolic steroids in conjunction with the programming of blood extractions and replacements.
I still don't really know what happened--but I'll take it!--Richie Porte, on Stage 11
Yewh, that's a pretty scary list...
I now think it’s just very, very sad – not that it in any way diminishes my love of cycling, or of my Saxo Bank boys (Bjarne and Kim excepted – although I do respect their talent for recognising cycling talent and for race tactics).
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
Sadness is a fair reaction
You get the same feeling looking at the giro podium for the last decade.
Oh, crap
Actually
I seem to recall there was a post here on PdC a few years back showing the top 5 from 1999-2005 and highlighting which of the riders had been implicated in doping. It was very illuminating…
Yep - it's an ugly list
Am I right in thinking only Beloki isnt tainted in some way? Or did he have a run in at once stage?
See Puerto Document 28 (quote and link above).
I still don't really know what happened--but I'll take it!--Richie Porte, on Stage 11
Little late to this thread. Almost 700 comments already.
Only thing I have to add is – I am big Hincapie fan, most of you know this. I’ve always assumed he either did or does dope. I don’t think any member of US Postal during the 7 TdF wins didn’t. I am of the “how the hell do these guys compete in 3 week tours without performance enhancement” camp. I believe it’s always been done in one way or another.
Humans are constantly struggling with their humanness. These men (and women) are professional athletes. The type of personality they need to be a pro cyclist also includes the desire to win at a high cost to themselves and those close the them.
Good for Landis for clearing his conscience. I’ve always liked him. Whether he is believed or not, I have a feeling he doesn’t care.
On with the show!
P.S. I am not saying they all dope illegally only that I think most do.
by ZoeRochelle on May 20, 2010 11:56 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
i agree with everything
except the notion that they dope because the 3 week tours or whatever are too hard. I think it’s the competition that leads them to dope. 100 meter sprinters dope. Weightlifters dope. Shorter or easier parcours will not lead to less doping – not in the slightest in my view.
But...
With heavy stages the rider can say, and has the right to say, It’s way to heavy.. I dope.. Clean riders can’t do shit about that.. Lighter races will advantage the non doped more and there is a chose to make…
not at all sure of that
Fignon sure argues the opposite case. But riders or dopers can always say it’s too hard and we need to dope. The old timers may have doped but they did it without blood doping or epo. So … I just think it’s besides the point. I really don’t think it helps the sport to lessen the parcours. Fignon thought that just made winning more accessible to much more of the peloton and in a way encouraged doping – but your argument has been around a long time and in fact they have been making the parcours easier all these years (maybe not the giro? – but the tdf and some of the classics)
I also agree, Zoe
but I’m not buying the Floyd clearing his conscience line of thought while he still claims he wasn’t guilty with respect to his TDF bust. I think he’s motivated more by bitterness than a desire to cleanse his soul, but lots of truth is told for less than noble reasons.
Me too
Whoever is a hero in this, it ain’t Mr Floyd Landis. He could have been one – in 2006. Now, he’s just a pissed off guy looking to do damage to people.
or maybe a very strange combination of both?
It will be very interesting indeed to see what Tyler H has to say (if anything)
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
Given the last four years
of “swearing on his mother’s grave” innocence, I take any “conscience” related talk with a very large truckload of salt.
is his mother still alive?
because that would make swearing on his mother’s grave a little impossible and therefore wouldn’t mean anything..much like “I didn’t dope”
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
didn't he say that although he doped in 2006 tdf, it was not testosterone
so the test was still wrong.
by ZoeRochelle on May 20, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
not originally
originally he said he didn’t dope. I’m still one of those in the “good for coming clean” but why didn’t you do it when it would have done some good? pack, but not happy with what it will do to the sport. I’m hoping that Pippo winning the Giro stage today will keep it off the front page of Gazetta…
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
tugboat was a golden retriever, btw
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Yeah... I think the timing reinforces that...
Right in the middle of the ToC, a race he would very much have liked to been in… and a race in which many of the riders he names are major players.
Cycling will always be a beautiful sport no matter how many people disgrace it.--Christian Vande Velde
Im just not shocked
this is old news, even though the details certainly are interesting. Just a few points i wanna make:
1. Why would Landis lie? For publicity maybe, but I see little to gain?
2. Timing is supicious, but Im not sure he intended the circus this has become
3. I think all riders should hold their tongues now, this is an old story, let him substantiate his claims, and let the proper authoritie investigate first.
4. But, it may also be a good time for anyone who can corroborate to step up.
why not make a circus of it? cycling won't die because of this but
if he has more things to back his statements up, then burn the damn thing down and rebuild it.
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
by Vlaanderen90 on May 20, 2010 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
According to sportscenter
Lance will speak shortly and they will show it
Giro...Giro.....Giro!!!!!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42
Clearly unstable
Really sorry for the guy
Tired and emotional
and, all together now
“I am the most tested athlete in history and I have never failed a test”
Can we have a sort of summary or running commentary?
I can’t get sportscenter in West Oz
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
not surprised
going on for a long time, floyd harassing him/threating
Going after his charachter
Said he was trying to get into the ToC by threating
I figured the lack of ToC invite would play into this
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on May 20, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Lance saying Floyd began threatning people a month ago per phone
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He has nothing to hide
but no denial yet
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Saying Landis is bat shit crazy pretty much
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said they come out
I haven’t heard about them
I think he is
But the fact that you are making threats doesnt necessarily mean that those threats are false
This is going to be the biggest ad hominem bull session in history
but is he threatening, or....
just telling them this is what I’m doing? Devil’s advocate, don’t shoot the messenger!
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
he started out "this has been going on for a long time"
i actually i thought he was going to take the plunge (with an admission)
I hate mountain lions. -me
highly unlikely
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
Pretty much stock standar Lance stuff then?
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
oops I mean standard
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
Saying Landis was sending emails to teams sponsors and race organizers
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Can't imagine sponsors and teams keeping that to themselves
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
so he'd better have some proof...
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
Stupid photographer in the way of camera
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No formal denial still
just a little weird, attacking Landis as a person and his character but nothing about in being false
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this from the man who puts his legal eagles onto anything he doesn't like?
what’s his reasoning for that?
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
not like he doesn't have the financial resources...
nor the time either. Just looks like a copout
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
especially Discovery?
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
Yeah
I would of thought that of all things, Lance is desperate for this to stay out of court.
Which makes me think he better be careful of what he says – I think Landis may be loony enough to sue HIM
oooh they could sell tickets to that court room event...
they’d probably make millions out of the TV rights too!
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
Remember, this is a guy who was planning to subpoena Lemond and ask him about what happened when he was young
Not to mention allegations about computer hacking etc
Anything can happen when he is around…
No one?
They’ve got Mythbusters.
"i just see giro and get all spazzy" - Gavia
by TheFigurehead on May 20, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
very droll
would like to see Adam and Jamie bust (or confirm, whichever) that myth though
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
+1
her bust is much nicer.
sorry.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Has Lemond said anything yet?
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
I mean publicly in response to this particular story?
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
From BMC and Hincapie:
Statement from Jim Ochowicz, BMC Racing Team President:
“The BMC Racing Team is aware of the allegations leveled against some of its management team and one of its riders, U.S. national champion George Hincapie. These allegations are not true, absolutely unfounded and unproven. This is disappointing to anyone who works in the sport or is a fan of the sport.”
Statement from George Hincapie, U.S. national champion:
“I have been a professional on the circuit for 17 years ˆ which is one of the longest careers in the peloton. During that time, I have earned the respect of my peers and a reputation for working hard, honestly and honorably. I’m really disappointed to hear these accusations.”
Clever.
and George's denial isn't really a denial....
very cleverly worded indeed.
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
but it will satisfy those who want to believe..
and the cynics won’t change their thinking – he hasn’t lost anything by issuing the statement
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
I assume Lance is actually taking questions from journos?
Or is it a carefully prepared statement?
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
it was questions in front of the team bus
a bit of a scrum. and it’s over now. lasted 5 minutes or so.
I hate mountain lions. -me
Don't think it was fully prepared
But the general gist is familiar, plus the addition of the “threatening e-mails”
so, thoughts from those who saw it?
does it change anything? did we learn anything?
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
I watched it
and I didn’t hear a direct denial. He seemed to have a “it’s not worth my time” attitude about denying the allegations.
I hate mountain lions. -me
he's playing the...
“huh, I’m much bigger than Floyd Landis so it will all go away, because I’m much more important to cycling” card?
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
Nope
he just made it seem as if Landis is desperate and crazy so this isn’t surprising, the only sort of denial is “I have nothing to hide” but that was all.
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busy doping stories day for espn
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5204001
"Race radios in Cat 4?"
I hate to be cynical,
but I’d be serious money (if I had it) that this is all going to go away very quickly.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
if Lance and JB have their way, very quickly...
If Kimmage and Lemond start making noises, it may take a little longer..because McQuaid and his cronies certainly won’t want anything to rock their money making boats..
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
Unless FL has one clear, unambiguous piece of hard evidence
Even his diary would do it.
Alot of journos in the US are still bitter about the way they were lied to by the baseball players. journos (oddly) are actually pretty sensitive to being flat out told lies. I wouldn’t mind betting that in the minds of some, there is the “you’re not going to do this to me again, sonny” feeling
and in others it will be..
“maybe we can get Lance this time”? It will depend on the journalist and how much they have invested in him and his message
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
they'd have to make it stick, wouldn't they?
because if they failed, nobody else would bother, ever again!
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
Bonnie Ford
Recently, Ford has had some strong words in ref. to tennis doping scandals. She might be willing to chase this one. And EPSN, pretty mainstream. Vediamo.
Btw, fascinating thread. Sorry I missed it, really, but I was cooked from the Giro. Only so much I can keep up with at a time.
unless he has hard evidence
not saying he does, but he’d be awfully naive if he thinks people will believe it, just because he says so?
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
he doesn't
he admitted as much in the WSJ article.
I’m as interested in this as the next guy, and have commented several times in the thread, but at this point this is almost a non-story – will be completely forgotten within a week, I’m guessing.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on May 20, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
have heard it said twice now on espn that landis has no documentation
this story has two emerging threads for the journalists to chase down and figure out.
"Race radios in Cat 4?"
well, here's a quote from the NYT story:
Landis also did not return phone calls, but told ESPN.com that he had no documentation to prove most of his claims against his former teammates. "I want to clear my conscience," said Landis, who races with the lower level OUCH-Bahati Foundation Pro Cycling team. "I don’t want to be part of the problem anymore."
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on May 20, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
which smacks of idiocy
because he opens himself up to comments just like the ones Lance made about his state of mind…he’s obviously not thinking clearly, but it’s still weird…
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
I'm not sure it will go away that quickly
because as long as a journo wants to talk to Floyd and print what he says, the rest of the media will follow – cycling has ever been their “doping” whipping boys..can you recall how many of the other dopers caught at Beijing were named as quickly as the cyclists?
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
I guess I disagree
the journalist can talk to Landis all he wants, doesn’t mean much if the paper won’t print the story. Thsi story will sell papers for a couple of days and then people will lost interest. Very easy to paint Landis as a wack job. The only way it flies is if someone like K. Armstrong or Hincapie comes out and says yeah, this is what happened. There’s next to no chance that will happen.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on May 20, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
that's okay.
I don’t need everybody to agree with me, and you always make a good argument (I’m just too stubborn sometimes to change my mind – or I have too much fun with the argument). LOL
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
yeah but they're headed by a former Australian politician
and ugh…
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
haha really? I didn’t know that, that’s hilarious!
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on May 20, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
ever seen the footage from the IOC announcement
for Sydney 2000? He’s the dipstick on the right of picture jumping up and down like a bloody lunatic. He was the NSW Premier at the time.
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
you know, where Samaranch says "and the winner is Sydney"?
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
hehe, no, can’t say I have…still, that’s awesome
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on May 20, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn't Landis say tranfusions took place on the team bus?
The entire team was tranfused. Plenty of witnesses. All it will take is one other to step forward and this thing snowballs rather quickly. What if they are all deposed?
Twitter username: FitTechEric
by The Team Chef on May 20, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Indeed - which is why I think the big risk to lance is this going anywhere near a law court
20 guys on a team bus, easily. I don’t believe that all 20, including the damn driver, would be willing to risk perjury charges (which is what ends up getting most of these guys anywhay)
Yeah but this goes nowhere near a court solely on Landis’s “confession.” And for someone else to talk…well, you’d have to have someone else like Landis, who figured he had nothing to lose, it’s all been lost anyways. I’m sure most people prefer the status quo.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on May 20, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree
But there are a couple of loose cannons out there.
Tyler H is one. Frankie A is another. And frankly, if Landis feels he is being dissed he may try to find a way to get this into court at HIS instigation…
not to mention all the civilian employees..
who might hold a grudge too?
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
I'm assuming the alleged team bus incident
took place on French soil. If so, wouldn’t this have violated French law at the time? Certainly grounds for some type of investigation with depositions taken. Faced with the threat of jail time, I could see someone rolling.
Twitter username: FitTechEric
by The Team Chef on May 20, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Definitely on french soil from the account
Not sure when the french brought in their “sporting fraud” law – it may have been after 2006 in response to landis
Darn its 1.30am - off to bed for me!
Thanks for the discussion guys – always fun and enlightening…
Hope you all have good nights or days, depending on where you are!
"I still have no idea what happened … but I’ll take it." Richie Porte after taking the Maglia Rosa Stage 11 of the Giro!
Can I just venture a guess
Riis Cycling/ SaxoBank will be the first casualty of this affair. Regardless of the outcome this will be headline stuff for weeks to come. No sponsor in their right mind takes a gamble on going headfirst into a shitstorm like this.
Im afraid so
If Zabriskie were to confess, i think he could tell the lost stories of a doping dynasty at CSC in 05-06 or so.
Just a strategy comment.
If you deny something you are saying that it has enough credibility to require denial.
If you don’t deny, you are in essence saying. “This is oviously too silly to require denial”.
In light of the Landis’ e-mail hacking, as well as many other things that Floyd has done, Armstrong took the smart approach in his interview. Even the promise of no suit is smart. Floyd looks so pitiful at this point in his life, suing him would look like beating up a guy in a wheel chair.
Armstrong probably did dope. And at least some of what Floyd said is probably true. Either way, I don’t care. That bandage has been slowly pulled off that wound too many times.
Eat shit, Bob Roll And Paul 'the chemist' Sherwen...Versus!
1) Canseco tribute post in honor of Blez reading the PDC..Go A’s!
2) I want to believe Floyd the creep, but it all can’t be the truth like he is telling it, can it? That was the whole Jesus Manzano thing, so low rent as to not be believed, different than those young riders who recently came clean and advised they had complex PED masking protocols available to them.
3) For me, the attacking Greg Lemond stuff really stands out as evil now – Bravo Greg Lemond!
4) Canseco’s book told the truth. while Landis’ had a book and campaign of lies. Hmmm.
5) Are the people who believe the peloton is doped really ‘the cynics?’
6) Remember – there is a death of someone close to Landis at the time this all went down…sorry, gross to say, and if it wasn’t Floyd, I wouldn’t be just sayin’.
7) Gotta love the UCI payoff by Lance!
WTF?
What are you attempting to imply with point 6?
Really.
Floyd’s father-in-law committed suicide. What is your friggin’ point?
maybe he delivered the testosterone nut patch to Floyd at the tour?
Just sayin’ – and also just sayin’ , in the biking context, Landis is not worth defending over anything.
He burned ALL OF YOU. A huge crime against the bicycle.
by rubesANdbabes on May 20, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
huh???
Landis didn’t hurt me.
And . . . I plowed through all 150 or however many pages of the “defense” that Arne Baker put together after Landis exhausted his appeals.
While there were procedural screw ups from the lab, Baker’s defense was not able to refute the major charge
"Landis didn’t hurt me."
Doping is killing off bike racing…it’s so obvious as the $ flows out of the sport..
Who could ever recommend to a fast young person to look at bike racing as a sport? Not me. It’s too dirty now.
by rubesANdbabes on May 20, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
"Now"???
What exactly are you assuming about why someone would pursue a sport?
You’re assuming that the only reason to pursue a sport is for financial gain? Is that it? Or that the only way to have fun bike racing is to win (which, by your argument, requires doping)?
Point me to the sport these days that does not involve some sort of doping to get to the highest level?
And beyond that . . . the reason to recommend cycling to young people is that it’s fun, it shows you your limits, and you can continue doing it as long as you want to,
Doping is compromising some forms of professional bike racing. And some of those forms might need to go away.
And beyond that . . .
no, He's gonna win it or be stripped of the jersey 2 weeks in
That’s bike racing.
No, I wasn’t being sarcastic, either – but open to interpretation.
How are you being?
by rubesANdbabes on May 20, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Um... rubes
Pretty much everyone is tiptoeing around here trying to err on the right side of causing offense (or at least, I hope I am)… can I suggest you tone the rhetoric down, just a little?
Of course, feel free to say the same thing to me… :)
yes, thanks but feel okay about what I am saying -
Only responding ‘WTF’ which from another poster, not me.
by rubesANdbabes on May 20, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
You're plowing into this discussion
at a much faster speed and more negative pitch than the rest of the peloton. Good idea to ease up and adjust accordingly, I think.
no, sorry - i thought about my post first.
didn’t want to make a tack on post – wanted people to see what I said about versus
by rubesANdbabes on May 20, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
NTTAWWT
(Did you just raise the back of your hand at me?)
(oh, sorry, let me up the pitch a couple octaves -
Did you just raise the back of your hand at me?!)
quit policing me, please
thank you.
I read like 700 posts before posting, I didn’t plow right in – and talking about Greg Lemond’s bit of redemption here is not negative to me and something I wanted to highlight.
And it’s not my fault Valverde’s gonna win the Tour, either, and only provocative because of the real possibility.
off to work!
by rubesANdbabes on May 20, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I wasn't speaking to you, there.
And if you take a gentle nudge as “policing”, I think you probably aren’t very good at reading the tone of the discussion as a whole, and I wouldn’t be surprised to if yourself at odds with lots of people in this discussion (who represent a rather wide range of views, yet seem to be able to communicate them just fine without lots of capital letters and over the top hyperbole).
Thanks definition Gentle nudge vs. whatever..
In truth, I thought your reply to willj was for me, sorry – hard to keep up, which I why I only usually post in well warmed-over threads.
First off, I read the comments over 2 days. In this format, it is hard to go back and follow the mini conversations, but never did I come across the name of Greg Lemond, and if there has been a Greg discussion, I missed it and sorry.
Chrisdot has previously expressed strong disdain for Greg the Drugslayer stories, and I have a 100% different opinion about this and see Greg as a hero, and so wanted to get this out.
The Floyd/Greg Episode angers me and angers me as the most obscene thing in bicycling I have ever heard about. And no, I wasn’t ever molestered, but I have confronted a maybe danger person, and I hope to never mention this again.
The guys getting on my case have probably made hundreds of comments in ‘drug in cycling’ posts alone. I have made about 4 or 5 ever. Message to Sui and R Mc: Two wrongs don’t make a right. And ps: If I decide to clean house in the tech-mech threads, don’t take it personally. Sorry and thanks.
I do have a heart for Floyd as a person, but a long path now. I hope he apologizes to Greg Lemond soon.
Watching Versus’ ‘Sportscenter’ – all about it. Wow!
And speaking of Versus: Shame, shame shame on them for participating for years in the cottage industry of Floyd BS. "I think the French cooked the whole thing up." – BR
dotLancedot
by rubesANdbabes on May 20, 2010 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Via Nyvelocity
Someone named Neil Browne, at Versus’ site:
Landis went on to say that Armstrong had heard about previous e-mail exchanges between Landis and USA Cycling officials regarding his claims of doping. In an attempt to silence Landis after the Tour of Gila, Armstrong called Dr. Kay, Landis’ good friend and title sponsor of his current team, and made veiled threats about revoking Dr. Kay’s doctor’s license based on his negligence in misdiagnosing Landis’ mental health.
"i just see giro and get all spazzy" - Gavia
Ok
1. Landis is probably not 100% accurate in all of his allegations.
2. He’s motivated by lots of things, not all of them exactly wholesome.
but
3. Landis has gone beyond being motivated by wanting to get anything out of cycling anymore: and he’s not going to be bullied by Armstrong.
Cynical or realistic
Some like myself, think this story is dead in the general public tomorrow. We are the hyperfocused in this sport, so it will be news to us for awhile longer but the gloom and doom that some of us seem to think might happen is already being squashed.
FL’s condemnations are too broad reaching for the sport to handle, so he will be painted as a bitter nut job. His credibility with no evidence makes this report just his litttle confessional.
I was actually surprised to hear Levi named, always thought he was a clean one. Oh well. It just shows me more that it is silly for anyone to condemn or support a rider around the clean or doping stance.
If they had just let him race the ToC we would have heard nothing from him. But I’m glad he confessed so I could find out about Levi.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
you may be right
the tone of this thread has already gone frome excitement to horror to doom to boredom to cynicism in half a day.
PS – about three thousand comments above is a link detailing Levi’s drug banning from 15 or so years ago.
muggito
Yea I saw that, never heard that before.
Believe it or not I actually read through this whole thread.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
UCI Press release again
Here
“The International Cycling Union (UCI) categorically rejects accusations made by Mr Floyd Landis, in particular the allegation that a positive doping result by Lance Armstrong during the 2002 Tour of Switzerland was concealed after an agreement was reached between the American rider, his directeur sportif Mr Johan Bruyneel and the former UCI President, Mr Hein Verbruggen.
Deeply shocked by the gravity of this statement, which considerably impinges on the honour of all persons who have dedicated themselves to the fight against doping, the UCI wishes to clearly state that it has never changed or concealed a positive test result.
The accusation by Mr Floyd Landis, guilty himself of a breach of the Anti-Doping Rules in 2006, is thus completely unfounded and the UCI can only express its outrage at this new attempt to harm the image of cycling. Our sport has long paid a heavy price for the fraudulent behaviour of individuals such as Floyd Landis and we cannot accept the principles governing our work being challenged in terms of their ethics and honesty by a person who has not hesitated to breach such principles.
By way of information, the UCI would like to point out that Lance Armstrong did not participate in the 2002 Tour of Switzerland.
Finally, the UCI wishes to make clear that it will undertake all necessary measures to defend its honour as well as the honour of all its executives who have been unfairly accused by Mr Floyd Landis.
UCI Press Service "
As pointed out above, Landis isn’t really saying that Armstrong participated in Tour de Suisse 2002.
"i just see giro and get all spazzy" - Gavia
It's that accusation that I think kills this thing.
Would like to hear from Tyler Hamilton about now though… would love to hear more about the cycling “mafia”.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Why would Landis mention the 2002 Swiss
if it was an out of competition test. It should be possible to determine if such a test happened.
Would the UCI have done this test themselves or would some other lab or agency have done it. If so, the statement should be verifiable.
As I understand it Floyd claims that he didn’t want this leeked to the press. But he CCd the email to a whole lot of people.
he talks about the 2001 tds
lance told him about what had happened in 2002, after the dl
by quarantanamo on May 20, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Standard operating procedure for whistleblowing by email:
CC a lot of people. Because that way a lot of people know you told, and they know that that person knows you told, and they know exactly what was said. Makes it difficult for the person you tell to pretend that she wasn’t told, or that she wasn’t exactly what you told her.
+ a lot
my vote for comment of the week
"Oooh God...if there IS one, save my soul...if I HAVE one." -Eugen Weber
by Koppenberg34 on May 21, 2010 6:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Of all the things that could come from this
if I had to pick one it would be McQuaid/Verbruggen being banished from the UCI forever.
The sooner McQuaid fucks offf...
the better.
Bunch of slack-jawed faggots around here. This stuff will make you a god damned sexual Tyrannosaurus, just like me - Jens Voigt, Predator (1987)
I shall love Landis forever if this happens
Giro...Giro.....Giro!!!!!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42
LA just pulled out of the ToC
seems he was involved in a crash and is going to the hospital for xrays.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Sensible
Get away from the mob which won’t leave you alone.
I would do that whether i was guilty or innocent
except
combined with his non-denial it looks weak.
Not good for the alpha-dog to show signs of weakness.
Convenient
excuse to miss out on TdF, etc if this doesn’t blow over?
Do you suppose that when he called for the race caravan's medical vehicle,
that the Dark Lord has the doctor in his pocket.
Wow, as if this story wasn't crazy enough
ironic twist of events; almost too sensational to be true
And so Lance retires from the sport, watch
So sad
I thought the bio-passport had finally given us some hope for the future.
I hope Floyd is telling the truth. I hope he is not so angry and bitter that he is intentionally trying to take down everyone he can.
Does the bus story really sound possible ? Could they have been that stupid ?
Yes the bio passport is giving us hope for the future
just not for the past, its science not a magic wand that can wish away a history of institutionalized doping.
Also Myerson does not seem to think Floyd
is a nut case. LA is implying that FL is sending off these cracked emails to everyone at odd hours of the night, all drunked up. That isn’t the recent Floyd Myerson describes.
Thank you...
I was going to post this. Adam = awesome. Let it burn.
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
by Vlaanderen90 on May 20, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
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