Polemica! Vuelta a España Excludes The Shack
by Jen See on Jun 14, 2010 7:01 PM EDT
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Armstrong and his RadioShack team, shown here at the start of this year's Tour of California, did not receive an invite to the Vuelta a España. Photo copyright Marvin Johnson.
The Vuelta a España released the list of 22 teams who will contest the Spanish grand tour come September. And look who's missing from the list. The Vuelta organizers gave the big middle finger to the Team The Shack. Before anyone starts to think this move was some kind of anti-American conspiracy, Garmin-Transitions and HTC-Columbia, who last I checked are American teams, will ride the race. RadioShack, no Vuelta for you.
RadioShack even asked for an invitation, and submitted a list of fifteen possible riders. The Shack skipped the Giro d'Italia to focus on the Tour of California and the Tour de France. Maybe it was the repeated references to the Tour of California as the most important race outside the Tour de France. Or, maybe the Vuelta organizers just took the focus on the Tour de France very very seriously. The recent Landis fandango may also have spooked the Vuelta, though the French investigation into the trashbins of Caisse d'Epargne haven't raised a ripple. Caisse will ride the Vuelta, despite the suspension of Alejandro Valverde and the French interest in the team's rubbish.
The Vuelta organizers have claimed concerned over whether the team would be competitive. They did not include Lance Armstrong among 15 rider pre-selection. Alain Gallopin told the Rueters wire service that of course the team had not proposed Armstrong among their team's preselection. It's not possible for a 38 year old to ride two grand tours, he explained. Still, the proposed line-up was "very competitive," asserted Gallopin. The pre-selection included names like Andreas Klöden, Levi Leipheimer, Haimar Zubeldia, and Janez Brajkovic, the winner of this year's Critérium du Dauphiné. Many teams would kill for a line-up stage race line-up like that one.
Over on the Twit, that bastion of well-reasoned reactions, Johann Bruyneel called the decision a "snub" and promised "interesting and spicy" comments. Oooh, Bruny, I love it when you get spicy! The suspense is so killing me right now. Bruyneel's spicy comments have yet to appear, as of this writing. Do post them in the comments when you see them. I'd hate to see a good temper tantrum go to waste.
Who are the invited teams? Garmin-Transitions, Team Sky, Cervélo TestTeam, and Katusha all scored invites. Though they have World Champion Cadel Evans, Team BMC did not apply to ride the Vuelta. The team viewed a third grand tour a bridge too far for their young roster. Locals Xacobeo-Galicia and Andalucia Caja-sur live for the Vuelta a España and both have local governments among their title sponsors. No brainer. Of course, they will ride the race. Xacobeo-Galicia will hope yet again for good things from Ezequiel Mosquera, who can't be getting any younger. The remaining teams are the 16 pro tour teams who are part of the automatic list created by the UCI-race organizer agreement of September 2008. That agreement expires at the end of this season.
Spare a thought for Vacansoleil, who can't catch any love from the grand tour organizers. No grand tours for you, better luck next year. Skil-Shimano, ISD-Neri, Androni whatsitcalled, Acqua&Sapone, and Saur-Sojasun will also watch the Vuelta on television this year. No tantrums have emanated from the team management of any of these rejected teams.
The Vuelta a España could change their mind and alter the invite list to the September grand tour. A good doping scandal, really, is there such thing as a good doping scandal? It's Monday, I can't be held responsible. A doping scandal could remove a team from the favorites list. Also, sporting grounds could lead to exclusion, though it's really hard to tell if a team is going to suck until they show up to race. For all intents and purposes, The Shack will be sitting on their couches during the Vuelta a España. Maybe the Tour of California needs to move to September next year.
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bruny's not really into making friends, it seems
burning bridges on the other hand.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Hoogerland. Who is the real victim here? We are, we don't get to see Johnny Hoogerland race a GT this year.
That guy earned another shot.
Bicycling is the nearest approximation I know to the flight of birds. Louis J. Helle, Jr.
I can think of 35 victimized VDS teams as well
Seriously, what does Hoogie need to do to get some love? Vacansolei does nothing but try their best to light up every race they are in. More than can be said for a few other teams.
by Douglas Ansel on Jun 14, 2010 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree 100%
When you riding a TT and your body tell you to slow down, don’t listen to it! Tell it shut the F#@K up! And go even faster!
( from my DS pep talk, long, long, long time ago.)
2009
“Last year, the team did not apply to race the Vuelta”
I don’t understand this line. Are you referring to Astana? RS wasn’t up and running yet. And Astana rode
by ncrow on Jun 14, 2010 4:37 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I do wonder if Astana fielding their B squad last year had anything to do with it. I think Navarro was their GC leader
by ncrow on Jun 14, 2010 4:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
dunno, really
I suspect it’s more about the statements about being all about the Tour and nattering on and on about how important the Tour of Cali is. I’d guess Armstrong’s disinterest didn’t help either.
Yep, this is what I'm thinking of too...
…somehow they just didn’t like the vibe, and didn’t think they were going to be taken seriously.
JB always sent the JV squad to the Vuelta
Except for when Astana got denied from the TDF and Contador did the Giro~Vuelta double, he has never given any respect to that race.
Except for when Heras was racing it
but that was quite a while ago.
by Douglas Ansel on Jun 14, 2010 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure what you mean
Last year is the only time I can remember them not having a guy in the top-10 guy on GC…and even then they had three in the top-20.
I can hardly think of a non-Spanish team that has taken the race more seriously on a regular basis over the years. Rabobank, I suppose. Liquigas now, but because they can afford to. That’s it.
by Mr 60 Percent on Jun 14, 2010 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions
yes. finished 9, iirc, in 2006
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Jun 14, 2010 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
They already promised Caisse a spot
Anyway, I’m reliably informed by someone on another forum that it’s yet another example of how all Europeans hate all Americans, and will do anything to annoy Armstrong, and Unipublic are scared of how strong RadioShack are, and didn’t invite them because they knew if they did it would mean a non-Spaniard would win and something something.
So it must be true!
Totally!
I’m sure the Vuelta hates Americans. Because you know, they invited Garmin and HTC-Columbia.
Wait… There are other forums?!
No.
It’s so stupid I’m speechless--Fabian Cancellara, on claims that he rode a motorized bike in the classics
you need
to stop looking at VeloNews forums.
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 14, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Which reminds me. Thank You Chris
for making such and awesome forum that doesn’t resemble Velonews or Cyclingnews forums. The site is functional and the banter fun and everyone is understanding and loves the sport more than anything else.
Opinion’s very but people aren’t jerks to each other like they are in other forums.
Just jerks towards the riders.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Sounds well thought out to me
I agree. Where can I find these bloggers?
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
That’s a shame – not a huge fan of RS but as you say, many teams would kill for a GT lineup like theirs. Frankly I think they’d be racing to win, I mean all those guys have to race for Armstrong in the Tour – nothing wrong with that, but the Vuelta would have been their chance. Look how close Leipheimer was 2 years ago.
Oh I was also going to ask about last year comment, but Lt Mudd beat me to it.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
I'm surprised, really.
I would have thought they’d be an obvious pick with the roster they have, and after skipping the Giro.
And yeah, I’m a dufus. A non-existent team could not have ridden the Vuelta. Bah Mondays!
yeah Mondays, I was productive for about 1/2 hour today, rock on
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Jun 14, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Disagree
I think a nonexistent team could coast along in the Vuelta for a couple weeks, though they would probably suffer in the final stages.
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 14, 2010 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
You guys obviously haven't seen a lot of nonexistent teams race...
The average rider on a nonexistent team weighs 0.0 stone. 0.0!!! Gravity has no effect on him. If he can generate just a few watts, the problem is not getting up the hill, but to stop ascending once he reaches its crest.
Incidentally, if any DS happens to be reading this, and realizes that what his team needs is a nonexistent rider, I am willing to provide one, or even two, for half of Contador’s salary, provided I am paid in untraceable bills and that the transaction be anonymous.
I, for one, am not going to put up with non-existent riders
if they insist on cheating with non-existent motors.
It’s so stupid I’m speechless--Fabian Cancellara, on claims that he rode a motorized bike in the classics
It's not possible for a 38 year old to ride two grand tours, he explained.
Lance did it last year, so I guess the cutoff is 37. Horner, LL and Sastre take note, your years of two GTs are soon coming to an end.
Ha ha
Truly. I think this is the crux of it, though, for the Vuelta people. The team didn’t include Armstrong in the pre-selections so the Vuelta was like, well, forget that.
Have to completely disagree with Gallopin there
Just ask Inigo Cuesta who rode the Tour and Vuelta last year at the age of 40! He’s already completed the Giro this year so will most likely do another two Grand Tours in a season at the age of 41.
Or ask Erik Zabel, who at the age of 38 in 2008, rode and finished all three Grand Tours!
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on Jun 14, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Most def
Armstrong just doesn’t want to. Though, like, winning the Vuelta would be a nice salve for not winning le Tour…
by Douglas Ansel on Jun 14, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Assuming he can win the Vuelta.
3rd in the Tour of Lux does not exactly ensure that.
i can't believe i'm defending LA
but i think him being old is only part of the reason. of course, they only mention the age factor in the explanations, but he’s also got a cancer killing empire to run, and possibly a little defending himself in front of federal authorities coming up. basically, he’s a busy man outside of racing his bike. sure, plenty of people can ride 2 GTs at 38, but they may have a little less extracurricular activities to tend to. and he didn’t come back to racing to win shit small races, he only cares about the tour.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Doesn't the Vuelta
also conflict with Leadville? Pretty sure he’s committed to racing that thingy. Also, in terms of his wider goals, the Tour is the most important. Nobody outside cycling fans pays attention to the Vuelta, and he knows that.
Cuesta was exactly who I thought of when I read that response too.
Nice when an excuse gets absolutely BLOWN apart!
by JustJoshinYa on Jun 14, 2010 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Is the number of UCI ProTour team licences limited?
There are currently 18 ProTour teams. Is that the maximum?
Maximum 20 teams
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Jun 14, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Going to suck next year
If they implement the ProTour reforms. Pro Cont teams will be limited to 18 points worth of top races. And GTs cost 9. Monuments 6. Teams like Cervelo and BMC will have to go ProTour (unless there’s a way to earn points throughout the season)
by ncrow on Jun 14, 2010 4:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
i think that's part of the plan
to close the ‘loophole’ of teams remaining pro conti so they don’t have to go to all the PT races, but still get to race all the big ones.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
More money for the UCI!
Yay for money! UCI makes far more cash off pro tour licenses than ProConti, so big incentive to shut that down.
Cervelo flat out admits they are trying to avoid PT obligations
I am just worried that if you limit PT teams to 20 and block Pro Cont teams from more a few big races, you are either going to watch the same teams in every single race all year. Or minor Pro Cont will be races when stronger Pro Cont are shut out.
by ncrow on Jun 14, 2010 5:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Don't blame them, though
I mean, Pro Tour isn’t that special, if you’re a strong team
by Sarah Connolly on Jun 14, 2010 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
numbers are like small words
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Except pi--that sucker goes on forever.
It’s so stupid I’m speechless--Fabian Cancellara, on claims that he rode a motorized bike in the classics
no they don't
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
The Pro Tour is so terrible
its a form of exclusion more than inclusion. It tells what races you can/can’t do, and if it expands in that way, it will completely disallow for any pro-continental teams to run a full top notch schedule. What really was so wrong with the division system that we needed the pro tour?
It does make money for the UCI, though
in the form of licensing fees, I believe. So, maybe from that perspective It Was A Very Well Thought out Plan. But maybe not.
Organizational politics
Such a bitch sometimes.
by Douglas Ansel on Jun 14, 2010 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I really wish that there could be a consideration other than money
from the UCI. But we know how much they love their money (Lance). The pro tour doesn’t indicate top performance, as noted by Footon and Milram being somewhere in the mid 20’s in the rankings, yet they get undeserved automatic invites, where I don’t think they’ll field particularly strong teams. It frustrates me to see an unfair system that lets you buy into races like that with the pro tour license.
And Barbie Barbie gets the short end of the stick
:(
http://www.bah.net/
by dees ees en drama on Jun 14, 2010 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting
Seems like they’ve agreed to change it to 18. There were some other stuff there that sounded interesting, like this:
The criteria considered – sporting, ethical, financial and administrative – are unchanged. However, the calculation of the teams’ sporting values has been completely revised. This will now be based on the values of riders contracted by a team for the following year. These values are calculated from the riders’ results over the two previous seasons. The values will be calculated on the basis of the UCI World Ranking, Continental Rankings, U23 Ranking, podium places in Grand Tours and victories in the most important events (World Calendar, HC Class, Classes 1 and 2, Continental Championships, National Championships and World Championships).
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Jun 16, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I wonder if they simply don't believe RS will actually send the good lineup...
…after the Tour. Especially given JB’s habit of not giving a shit about bike racing post-July.
maybe, but
One reason LA gets all that great help in the Tour is by promising Levi and Kloden they can compete at another GT. Those guys I feel a little sorry for.
Meh.
They’ve had options besides being LA’s domestiques for some time. If they chose to return to being LA’s domestiques, I don’t feel at all sorry for them about the consequences of that choice.
Second that meh
I mean, who thinks Levi could win an actual Grand Tour this year?
And plus, by RadioShack logic, they already got to ride a GT – Cali!
by Sarah Connolly on Jun 14, 2010 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Levi and klodi = old
Horner doesn’t (anymore) have the head to be a leader. Brak is fragile.
I was hoping they’d ride for steegmans in the sprints.
by R Mc on Jun 14, 2010 7:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, Horner and Brajkovic really looked wobbly...
Standing up on those podiums above Valverde and Contador.
Cazzo, it's going to be a bloodbath! The Mortirolo is a horror, absolutely interminable. -- Michele Scarponi
I'm with you... I think RS without LA is always able to be more animated in a race...
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
I was going to say that his 2008 Vuelta team did pretty well
But then I remembered why
by quarantanamo on Jun 14, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
from TRS latest press release....
"I am not only surprised, I am speechless," commented Bruyneel from the Tour of Switzerland. "At first I thought it was a mistake so I called organizer Javier Guillén for some explanation. He told me that the other teams offered him better options on a sporting level. I had to ask him to repeat it as I could not believe this but I heard right: we didn’t offer a good enough team. I cannot accept or understand this decision. With Levi Leipheimer, Andreas Klöden, Chris Horner and Jani Brajkovic we had four potential Vuelta WINNERS on the roster we sent to Unipublic. Our 2010 Team goals were the Tour de France and the Tour of Spain. That’s why – together with the need to perform well in the Tour of California – we skipped the Tour of Italy this year. "
Hmmm…other teams had better options….
gotta agree with Bruyneel
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Jun 14, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
more from the press release...
“Up until now it has never been accepted that a Team Manager stands on a soap box to defend the rights of the teams and the riders. We always have to accept; we don’t have many rights. After what I heard today, I take it as a personal mission: from now on I will fight for the interests of the cycling teams. It will be more than just a goal. I will work for it as hard as I’ve worked for my own team. It is really urgent that action be taken now as this is the time that the organizers will listen to the opinions of the teams. I will do everything that I can to bring all big teams to one level. What happened today is only a detail."
"In cycling there are three parties: UCI, organizers and teams/riders. Unlike in other professional sports, the teams and riders are the main actors who are never heard. I will fight for our rights and for other things that rightfully belong to us but we never get. There is an abuse of power. Some organizers take away the hunger of potential sponsors to invest in our sport. It is unjust that a new sponsor, coming into cycling with a lot of enthusiasm, is not rewarded for their financial input. For me it is hard to explain to my sponsor that 21 other teams are apparently better than us. Especially when it isn’t true. These actions are unfair to our sponsors as well as a blow to our fans. "
Maybe bruyneel and wordin
Can go have a jack together.
by R Mc on Jun 14, 2010 7:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Is it just me...
…or have the principle actors on that team become more bluster-y/whine-y than racy/sportsman-y?
::yawn::
"He looked pretty good until he went over the side of that cliff." - thevaro
by SpaceGuy on Jun 15, 2010 2:16 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
link fail.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
It is...when you hit the 'up' button you'll see that..
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
i agree with a lot of his points
but “Our 2010 Team goals were the Tour de France and the Tour of Spain.” I didn’t know Cali had an alternate spelling.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
But California was once colonized by Spain, right?
Tour of Spain – now 4 weeks, in two parts.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Jun 15, 2010 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Well no they didn't win california
therefore, they weren’t aiming for it. It’ll be the same excuse from Lance when he finishes 5th in the TDF, he’ll say he was taking the opportunity to really admire the countryside for once.
"You know if there's any contact at all Cristiano Ronaldo's gonna go down...maybe even just a puff of wind"
If Brak is not in TDF
He would have been a great addition to the Vuelta team. A few years ago I think he actually wore the oro?? Or at any rate, he was lighting it up in the mountains for a couple stages before he faded.
I think you're right
that Brajkovic wore the leader’s jersey for a stage or two. I do remember he did a good ride that year. Rough days there at the Shack now. Only nine guys ride the Tour, and there’s no booby prize.
OK, I looked it up
2006, the year Vino won. Brak was in oro for two stages, and was 2d to DiLuca for the two preceding stages. Finished 2d on one mt. stage, which is what catapulted him up to 2d GC.
That was years ago though
And those RadioShackers, they’re not getting any younger…
by Sarah Connolly on Jun 14, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah. jani's all of 26
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Jun 14, 2010 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
And their roster is also backloaded with former Trek Livestrong guys
who are all U25. They’re actually a fine mix of young and old, roster wise.
Despite my cycnicism of Lance and JB, I confess that is a well balanced roster, they should’ve been invited.
wasn't there also a rumor of taylor phinney riding the vuelta as an espoir?
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Jun 14, 2010 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm sorry, but
much as he’s great on the track, how is he better than (eg) Cervélo’s-squad?
He’s a sweet lad, I’m not denying that, but he’s not even Leonardo Duque, yet
(Leo being my Vuelta hero last year, what with his 26-min-winning stage that saved my Tour Champion team from ignominy!)
by Sarah Connolly on Jun 15, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Query
Which team should have been excluded in favor of Radio Shack?
Cervelo would seem an obvious choice
unless they double promised for reals that Sastre would ride to win and ignore the Tour. And even then I wonder if not a second string RS squad would bring more to the table ( except not a spaniard).
I guess
a team that might bring Sastre wins over a team that might bring Levi or Kloden.
ie bingo on “…not a Spaniard”
A Spanish former TdF winner
excluded from his country’s biggest race for a team that won’t send its biggest star?
Let me put it this way, IF Radio Shack said Armstrong would come I agree. But Radio Shack said he would NOT race.
At least as a marketing of the race issue, I can’t say I agree with you.
They didn’t have Sastre last year and they won two stages. More than a lot of PT teams did last year.
Not that I disagree with you. I just think it stinks we debate RS vs. Cervelo when half the teams at vuelta arent going to do anything of note.
A new system of GT invites is needed
by ncrow on Jun 14, 2010 5:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
whoa there
Dominique could be part of the CTT vuelta squad, so it’s imperative that they get invited.
any of the other 21 teams would be fine with me.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
which is probably for the better
i’d like to see more big races develop on this side of the pond. and Dom must be getting pretty big around la belle province. his presence would probably help a lot.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Pretty big among cycling fans (not that he wasn't known before), but elsewhere, not really.
I’m pretty sure if I ask most of my coworkers about who Dominique Rollin is, most of them won’t have any idea. Or they’ll think he’s a hockey player in the minor leagues.
Blame that on the very thin cycling coverage in the big media…
that's a shame
i guess he just needs to win the tour.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
They could have excluded Katusha again.
Yeah, J-Rod—but has he ever finished higher than 6th in the Vuelta? Leipheimer has been on the podium twice.
It’s so stupid I’m speechless--Fabian Cancellara, on claims that he rode a motorized bike in the classics
Katusha
seemed the one to exclude imo.
But again, sans Armstrong, how big an attraction is Radio Shack? Sure Liepheimer, Kloden, Jani etc are great riders, but somehow the Giro survived just fine without them.
If Cervelo brings Sastre, Cervelo seems the better choice for a Spanish race.
I think Shack over Katusha is the better argument.
Heh, but Katusha aren't dumb enough
To dismiss the race all through spring…!
by Sarah Connolly on Jun 14, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but the way J-Rod is riding this year?
Hard to exclude him. But crazy to exclude RS. I don’t know, it just sucks.
Cazzo, it's going to be a bloodbath! The Mortirolo is a horror, absolutely interminable. -- Michele Scarponi
Hmm, what does Sky bring?
Some good stage hunters, but not as much GC-wise as RadioShack. I really think something other than “sporting level” was behind the decision…
Cazzo, it's going to be a bloodbath! The Mortirolo is a horror, absolutely interminable. -- Michele Scarponi
i was going to suggest that
regarding the something other, i wouldn’t be surprised if a sky-less vuelta was not shown on certain networks.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
I guess Xacobeo and Andalucia are out of the running
Katusha has to go, J-rod can win it
Cervelo has Sastre, he can compete, they need to go
Garmin needs no invite, they didn’t show up for the Giro and there’s not a huge guarantee they will for the Vuelta
Sky is a first year team, and they are already an automatic invite? Other than EBH and Wiggins, who have underperformed, its not the most impressive squad.
I would’ve invited RS and Vacansoleil and left those two out. I
Sí
Xaco and Anda have to go because of the sponsors.
Sky seems to be the darling team, so I’d be surprised if they were overlooked.
i know they are the darling team
I just can’t for the life of me understand what makes them so damn precious. They should have to muddle like a lot of other fledgling first year operations do. No big deal though, they’ll show up and represent well with their sprinters, maybe Wiggins would do better with that race than the Tour too.
Money ;-)
But I do agree that they are getting quite the free pass. So did Cervélo, though, really. I don’t think they’re a bad invite, necessarily.
Oddly, I'm also tempted to frame this as youth vs. experience...
…where experience loses. Sky may not have a real GC contender in this race this year, but they have some young talent that could definitely animate the race, depending on who gets sent, and who they have a real interest in trying to get through all three weeks for the experience of doing a full grand tour. From the Vuelta’s pov, that might be preferable to a team composed mostly of veterans nearing the end of their careers who are racing this as a kind of consolation prize and might well be tempted to just bail if they fall out of contention. Sky will, like CTT last year, race this thing hard b/c they will still have quite a bit to prove. Same with the Garmin team that’s going there, especially since Garmin has a history of having some success there.
good points
the best outcome, from unipublic’s pov, might be plenty of animation (stage wins, escapes…) from young riders, no matter where they’re from, and a well established spanish rider winning the overall.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
It's a good rationale...
Or at least a good rationalization. From the point of view of the organizers, wanting to make their primary fan base happy, it might indeed make more sense to have a team of animators than a legitimate (but foreign) GC threat. But to call that “sporting considerations” is a stretch. “Unsporting” would be more like it!
Of course it’s their race and they get to choose. But choosing a weaker team weakens the race in the end.
Cazzo, it's going to be a bloodbath! The Mortirolo is a horror, absolutely interminable. -- Michele Scarponi
I'm thinking of the rationale driving Unipublic...
…not trying to suggest it’s actually reasonable.
I think at some level the real underlying problem here is the agreement guaranteeing all the protour teams from a couple years ago spots. Surely, as has been suggested, some of them could be dropped to make room for a few other squads more likely to do, well, anything.
Amen to that.
Would also remove some very ugly jerseys from the race.
Cazzo, it's going to be a bloodbath! The Mortirolo is a horror, absolutely interminable. -- Michele Scarponi
Garmin I think is a good choice
Bubble boy needs to avenge himself for last year. He’s not targeting the tour, and is coming off some injuries, so he will be good for the Vuelta (if he can avoid mental collapse or getting sick/crashing… again).
by Douglas Ansel on Jun 14, 2010 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions
2005 – “Bubble boy needs to avenge himself for last year. He’s not targeting the tour, and is coming off some injuries, so he will be good for the Vuelta (if he can avoid mental collapse or getting sick/crashing… again).”
2006 – “Bubble boy needs to avenge himself for last year. He’s not targeting the tour, and is coming off some injuries, so he will be good for the Vuelta (if he can avoid mental collapse or getting sick/crashing… again).”
2007 – “Bubble boy needs to avenge himself for last year. He’s not targeting the tour, and is coming off some injuries, so he will be good for the Vuelta (if he can avoid mental collapse or getting sick/crashing… again).”
2008 – “Bubble boy needs to avenge himself for last year. He’s not targeting the tour, and is coming off some injuries, so he will be good for the Vuelta (if he can avoid mental collapse or getting sick/crashing… again).”
2009 – “Bubble boy needs to avenge himself for last year. He’s not targeting the tour, and is coming off some injuries, so he will be good for the Vuelta (if he can avoid mental collapse or getting sick/crashing… again).”
2010 – “Bubble boy needs to avenge himself for last year. He’s not targeting the tour, and is coming off some injuries, so he will be good for the Vuelta (if he can avoid mental collapse or getting sick/crashing… again).”
by Ryan_Liles on Jun 14, 2010 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
dansel should get honorable mention
for such a good set up for Ryan
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
"Garmin needs no invite, they didn’t show up for the Giro and there’s not a huge guarantee they will for the Vuelta"???
They sent CVV to the Giro who broke his collar bone very early in the race. Tyler Farrar won two stages. No Show?
Bicycling is the nearest approximation I know to the flight of birds. Louis J. Helle, Jr.
I forgot to add that Garmin put a man on the second step of the podium in California at the same time.
Bicycling is the nearest approximation I know to the flight of birds. Louis J. Helle, Jr.
I recall them being last by a mile in the team category
was not a very strong team, up and down. And i forgot about CVV, he wasn’t there long, a shame, but it doesn’t change my mind. Garmin doesn’t need to go to every big race, I would welcome some parity in the invitations besides just national based teams being substituted per race and 20 or so teams going to every grand tour.
B/c of number of riders who fell out at the end, yes...
…not necessarily the best indicator, though.
I dont know why, but that is my lasting memory of their Giro
I don’t think they have particular strength in numbers, of course its just my opinion, and in reality its probably easy to counter, but they are not a lock in my mind for these races. Parity is all i wish for, and Im not convinced that they would target this race with more fervour than RS or Vacansoleil. Only with Farrar in the race could i see it.
Zabriskie beat Leipheimer in California.
Radio Shack was targeting that race and didn’t have another squad racing a GT in Europe.
Garmin won three stages at the Vuelta last year. They aren’t the weak link you are looking for.
Bicycling is the nearest approximation I know to the flight of birds. Louis J. Helle, Jr.
Vacansoleil riders will be all fat ’n tanned by August.
Well, as tan as Belgians can possibly get at least.
What makes a Belgian anyway?
Is there even such a thing?
They don’t seem so sure themselves these days…
This is a question for Poirot..
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Marple
Poirot has too much invested in the outcome to be a disinterested judge of the thing.
When asked if he was a Walloon, Hercules was speechless
at the size of the insult :)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
is that a quote?
his name sounds French to me
No... it's my imperfect memory. But Poirot always corrects those who call him French.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
well, that's fair
Frenchmen are pretty disparaging about Walloons, so he should reciprocate.
He reciprocates with his 'little grey cells'... he still makes me laugh..
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
that we are
there’s got to be a thousand frites jokes on par with polish jokes here in the us.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Excuse me, Ted but you forget my boy, Lagutin, he is Russian and has double American / Uzbekistan citizenship.
When you riding a TT and your body tell you to slow down, don’t listen to it! Tell it shut the F#@K up! And go even faster!
( from my DS pep talk, long, long, long time ago.)
I conveniently forgot about DZ too
who is just as deep in Landis’ allegations as any one, if that truly was the ultimate reasoning for RS’s exclusion, then maybe there should’ve been some fairness across the board there, idk just saying.
I find Garmin to be mildly forgettable and would prefer to see some new faces in the Vuelta as opposed to the other GT’s. They are deserving of their invite, i don’t disagree with inviting them, im just saying its shouldn’t be a lock (IMO) and that is of the group of 4 teams that made the race without lock or nationality. Id actually invite them over Footon, Milram, Lampre, and all the French teams (for the Vuelta at least).
Cunego won two stages last year!
He’ll probably try to do something like that again as he’ll need some results by then.
Always helps when your looking for a new contract
or team(?) as the Cunego rumors have been rampant all season.
I'd imagine that the Landis allegations featured
prominently in the decision, but they couldn’t say so publicly because of invites offered to people like Alvaro Pino of Karpin-Galicia. Pino was in the middle of both the Kelme and Phonak dopage imbroglios.
But his team has a local gov’t sponsorship. The Shack will likely be hip deep in allegations and investigations come August, business-wise, I think it was a smart call. It just can’t really be defended on sporting grounds.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
Bah Pino!
He’s so past his sell by date.
But I do agree with your points here. If the Novizstky investigation comes to nothing, the Vuelta will look silly. But if it builds speed and grabs headlines, the Vuelta looks like they dodged a big pr nightmare.
True, but it is MUCH harder to defend
an invitation once it was offered. Much easier just to invite teams that are less financially risky to the race organizers. If they offer Shack now, and have bad press but no proof by race-time, they won’t be in position to dis-inivite Shack, even if they aren’t a welcome addition to the race. Best to just not offer an invite than to offer one and take it back later. While there will almost certainly be bad doping press for Shack between now the the Veulta, there will almost certainly not be any proof or results from official investigations.
The TdF had a hell of a time and was sometimes unsuccessful univiting people like DiLuca, Saiz, and Boonen to name just 3. As a business, they have to manage reputation, and managing reputation and PR doesn’t always work hand in hand with concepts like justice or proof. If the Shack is bad for Unipublic’s bottom line, they don’t get an invite.
There are less competitive teams than Shack that got invites and there are teams with similarly tarnished reputations that got invites. However, Shack has a combination of bad reputation with a lack of appeal to local sponsors, so they miss the cut.
Really, they had the option of going ProTour and buying an invite. They chose not to do that. They gambled and lost.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
rsh is pro tour. they just aren't part of the 2008 agreement.
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Ah, my bad. Darn facts got in the way of my argument. ;-)
I’m basically recycling my arguments for why it was ok for races not to invite Unibet. There need to be performance standards for some teams and enough wild-cards for the organizers to build a balanced field. There are teams that get upset every year, but that is the sport. The bottom line is that other than guaranteed invites, it is the race organizer who gets to decide and they are not beholden to anyone other than their sponsors and local fans.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
+1
get yourself a guarantee, or kiss a lot of organizer ass.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
PINO 4 EVER!
jk
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Gah, no idea what happened there
I thinky my poltergeist was typing for me.
Anyway, I agree re Garmin beating RS and Cali
(and I will never get tired of laughing at how Bruyneel & RS went on about how Cali is the 2nd GT, but not when they lost it, or couldn’t ride la Vuelta…)
by Sarah Connolly on Jun 15, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
CVV
“They sent CVV to the Giro who broke his collar bone very early in the race.”
CVV, 45th in the ITT. I do believe he was there for conditioning.
So basically this rational is that the Vuelta needed some more sprinters teams because they are so top heavy with legitimate GC candidates. Hmmm.
lol
Makes about as much sense as any other expl.
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 15, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, I also forgot about the passion that the Spanish have
for sprinting, and how the Vuelta has always tried to have bunches of them in the past.
The point was that they sent a top rider, not filler.
The team was hoping for more out of Dan Martin who would have been more of an unproven as a team leader in a three week race. That is the type of situation the Vuelta would like to avoid going into the race.
CVV, 45 th in ITT 8.4km long, with intermittent rain during the day, Ivan Basso was in 37th. Is 40th place the cut off for competitive riders?
Bicycling is the nearest approximation I know to the flight of birds. Louis J. Helle, Jr.
CVV is normally a stronger ITTer than he is climber.
The reverse is true for Basso. In any case, teams regularly send squads to Grand Tours with no intention of contesting the GC. Garmin had no intention of contesting the Giro. Radioshack was going to send a team to the Vuelta that could contest for the win. Who is Sky going to contest the Vuelta with?
by tamburlaine on Jun 16, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Garmin didn't show up at the Giro?
Didn’t they win two stages? Not many other teams can make that claim.
"My clients dont care shit about romandie or mello johnny" - singhstax
I don't remember their wins
but then again i usually ignore the flat stages anyway, a flat stage bunch sprint just doesn’t excite me like a terrain filled battle.
"You know if there's any contact at all Cristiano Ronaldo's gonna go down...maybe even just a puff of wind"
This decision has probably something to do
with that whole Floyd Landis accusation investigation thingy, hard to say that paints RS in the most positive light. Myabe they are a risky team to bring if JB is found to have had a history of presiding over a doping system back in the day. But, thats really a guilty until proven innocent style of thinking, and its the only idea that makes any sense, considering the “better options” excuse seems less credible.
Stage 16 could be a little awkward
They finish on the “Cima Rubiera” with no Chechu.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vuelta-to-include-summit-finish-on-cima-rubiera
It’s one thing to flip the bird to Lance and Bruyneel when they obviously belong. But taking away a well-respected 38-year old Spaniard’s chance to finish his career by riding his last race on the hometown climb named after him?
That’s fucked up.
Thats the point that makes me scratch my head
Zubeldia and Chechu were such great competitors over the last ten years or so, and are probably close to the end of their careers. Way to shaft a team with such honorable spanish riders, it hardly makes any sense to me at that part. But again it has to be the Bruyneel thing that got them left on the sidelines.
yes. poor chechu. new dad and all, who isn't slated to ride the tdf.
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Jun 14, 2010 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
You can bash Bruyneel/RS all you want
but it’s misguided.
The Vuelta organizers who decided to exclude RS did so out of spite. It’s equivalent to shooting yourself in the leg while trying to pull out your gun to shoot someone else. They wanted LA to come to the Vuelta, so shouldn’t you be pissed at them?, because many of you don’t want to see LA on a bike anyway.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
it's a wonder that aso didn't have more say in the matter. after all, they own 49 percent of the race.
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Jun 14, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
49 percent has exactly as much authority
as the other 51% says it has.
Never take a minority position if you want a voice.
screwy system
why can’t professional cycling have some sort of play off system, where you earn a spot and it’s not based on popularity or other nebulous things. yeah there are definitely victims in this bruhaha but bruyneel musta really pissed off somebody, payback’s a bitch.
This kind of payback is unprofessional idiosy.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
why can’t professional cycling have some sort of play off system, where you earn a spot
I’d love the medium sized Tours to be part of a qualification system. It would add another level of tension and competition in races that are often used only as Grand Tour Tune Ups by some teams.
moo
that could be cool
each GT could have 3 week-long qualification races. every team could have a chance to ride at least 1. the best finishers/animators could go on to the GT.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
JB's answer below
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
One thought...
I find it annoying when someone says they are “speechless” and then follow that with a speech?
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
I would hardly call tennis an overly successful sport as there is only a few top players at any time in the last 20 years.
F1 is also not that successful as again there is very little competition after the first 10 minutes of the race unless there is some unexpected crash.
As for ‘soccer’, well that structure is so totally different then cycling that it should not be viewed as comparable.
I think the argument is more about teams/riders "rights"
than comparabilities.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
If that is what they meant then I really don’t understand.
Tennis – The Main Tournaments seeding is based on the collected points you get in the smaller events over the season.
Soccer – The athlete is even more treated like a piece of meat as they can be traded and shuffled around as per the desires of the front office.
F1 – Oh yeah, that’s why most of the car companies have pulled out of F1. Because they have too much authority.
The athlete is even more treated like a piece of meat as they can be traded and shuffled around as per the desires of the front office.
not true …. athlete must agree to any transfer … and since the Bosnan ruling the players have lots of power (assuming they are any good)
moo
Bah at the "we don’t have many rights"
Maybe you should organize at all teams and put respectable man ahead of the rider/team alliance. And.. Did they not prevent the 8 man roster in the Tour?! All teams..
It is unjust that a new sponsor, coming into cycling with a lot of enthusiasm, is not rewarded for their financial input.
WTF?!
Oh and btw. Next year we get the invitations by ranking thing. So please..
Like RadioShack has a market in Spain
Yeah, everybody is buying those black
Sky jerseys and talking about Garmin in Spain.
Don't Spanish people
need to connect mismatched wires sometimes?
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 15, 2010 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
question asked in another forum:
Without Vuelta, can RS still get enough points to go to next year’s Tour?
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Jun 15, 2010 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
interesting
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
They can always race to win Missouri!
Or not.
Bicycling is the nearest approximation I know to the flight of birds. Louis J. Helle, Jr.
yeah, prefer to see sponsors rewarded for long-term commitments to the sport
by quarantanamo on Jun 15, 2010 5:45 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah but
the other teams and the race itself has sponsors to look after too. In the end they decided to take care of their sponsors and not Bruyneel’s. From a racing perspective I don’t like it, but you can be sure that business principles weren’t overlooked.
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 15, 2010 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Spicy and Belgian?
Do those two words EVER mix?
Anyhow, my personal thought is why invite a team whose main protagonists might be required to be at some doping hearing in the near future.
I bet you a dollar Caisse d Epargne makes Valverde to grow a mustache and assume a fake identity to ride for them!
Racing for Victory and Free Beer!
meh
it’s not Mexico, you take your spice where you find it.
by Chris Fontecchio on Jun 16, 2010 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Why can't the Vuelta invite whoever the hell they want?
Not a huge fan of RS, so understand that, but it’s their race, right? Maybe they don’t like the negative issues that RS needs to address (ie the implication that JB, LA, et all have such a shady past). Maybe they are just pissed that the A-Team’s not coming. I don’t know – but it’s their race and their choice, right?
I do agree that if you are gonna make a team pay (through the nose) to register as a Pro-tour squad, that has to mean something – but as far as that is concerned, isn’t that a UCI issue? I guess what I am getting at is, maybe this whole mess has more to do with Pro-tour squad status not meaning a damn thing if the various races can pick and choose. Can’t be both ways…but, I tend to side with the race organizers. It’s their race, let them decide what they want.
sure, which is why no-one here is threatening to sue...
or to boycott… or to send exploding packages.
But the fairness of it, wisdom of it, politics, and what it means for individual riders is just as much up for discussion as, say, the color of footon’s shorts, and other key issues in pro cycling.
My guess is that they’re tired to death of seeing and hearing Bruyneel, and this was a better option than digging out their eyes and cutting off their ears. Oh, wait, sorry, that’s me, not them.
good one!
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
i doubt that bruyneel would even have been at the vuelta if rsh received an invite. unless, of course, one of his riders might actually be in the leader's jersey two days before the vuelta finished
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
I agree with you. It’s their race. But they need to recognize what’s good for the sport and what’s not. Sure, they have the right to make bad invite decisions. But it’s still terrible for the sport when sponsors sign up not knowing what races they will be in.
I am not arguing in favor of JB. Crocodile tears. He just all discovered that teams get shafted and now he cares? I didn’t see his team turning down their P-R so others could race. I mean, he’s right about a lot of what he said. But there are plenty of worthy teams that get rejected so PT teams can sit on the whole race.
Invites shouldn’t be a black box. But JB now saying it’s his mission when it’s been the foremost problem on most non-early PT teams minds for years makes him sound out of touch.
by ncrow on Jun 14, 2010 10:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Nobody, I mean nobody
sends their A Team to Spain, except those 2 pro conti Spanish teams. Weak excuse (organizers) in my opinion. It has always been leftover Tour guys and always will be.
I just think if you pay the big bucks, you go to the big races. Silly to think that RadioShack the company paid for one big race. Sorry California, contrary to what Phil Liggett says it just doesn’t replace a GT…
My 2cents.
If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when are you going to have time to do it again?
by CannonDowell on Jun 14, 2010 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Blind and deaf
you still manage to stay on top of things quite well.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
and better than I can place my postings
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
I just disinvite him from my consciousness,
…or failing that, laugh at him, even if he might have a point. Which is basically what the Vuelta dudes seem to be doing.
I'll say it again just to have said it
If the teams were so concerned with having stable conditions and a predictable invite-system they should have backed the UCI in the PrTour-dispute with the organizers. Instead they waffled and sucked up to the ASO and now we are basically back to an arbitrary system .
You make your choices, then you live with the consequences. Don’t come whining when you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
you tell 'em, jens
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
okay, that looks awesome.
now, just remembering, today is farmer’s market day. strawberries for me!!!
CSC, MILRAM, SAXO,Discovery
Its easy to find sponsors for a professional bike team, isn’t it ????
Let’s see …. who does Spain love most of all ?
Who did Lance and JB semi-disrespect off and on for quite a while.
The Spanish, they love hard and a bit irrationally, me, dad, the Vuelta-people, all of us.
I disagree with the decision
but the RS crew shouldn’t feel so entitled. The organizers say they didn’t think RS squad was strong enough while the Shack says they were sending their strongest team. So there is a lack of communication there, who knows how much each team pandered to the Vuelta organizers. Maybe they just hate JB and LA in which case they can join the EJBPMO club(because we are always accepting new members). Or maybe Bert said he would definitely race it if the Shack are not invited(no I wasn’t being serious but I’m sure someone will jump on this theory).
Los Geht's Deutschland!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42
Phil just said Contador is racing the Vuelta!!!
Bicycling is the nearest approximation I know to the flight of birds. Louis J. Helle, Jr.
Phil dreams big...
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Can someone link me up to the French investigation on Caisse-trash?
Haven’t seen that
Oh, it's both.
These French investigators are all over the trash.
one man's trash is another's treasure.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
It’s so stupid I’m speechless--Fabian Cancellara, on claims that he rode a motorized bike in the classics
I feel like I'm reading lines from "Nell"
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
My opinion.
I am disgusted to say the least! What a shame! Name another major sport witch plagued with disorganization and scandals as bike racing! We need a Pro League, with defined point system, and with Two team coming last being relegated to Division B. This is Simple, Doable and Fear! No GT for Vacansoleil, this is sucks!
When you riding a TT and your body tell you to slow down, don’t listen to it! Tell it to shut the F#@K up! And go even faster!
( from my DS pep talk, long, long, long time ago.)
didn't that use to exist before the wonderful protour was cooked up?
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Is there a direct quote from Unipublic?
So far I’ve only seen quotes from Bruyneel/Radio Shack telling us what the race organizers said to them. Not saying that JB is lying, but before I poo poo Unipublic’s reasoning here, I’d like a direct quote from them.
here's a VN article
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
So let's look at what Guillen said.
"There is no evidence to back up Landis’s claims," Guillén told the Spanish sports daily AS. "Our criteria were strictly sporting."
Their criteria is strictly sporting? He can’t tell you what that means right now, but give him a few days and he’ll come up with something.
"It’s a good team, you cannot question that," Guillén said. "Every fan will their preferences, but for us, the list of teams is ideal for our race."
Ideal for their race? Again, what does that mean? And again, give Guillen a few days and he will be able to tell you.
I like this quote
Luis Román Mendoza, journalist with Biciclismo.com:
"Cycling is the only sport that – step-by-step, day-by-day, year-by-year, but especially stupidity-after-stupidity – seems to be set on its own destruction…
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
I knew what this story from Gavia was going to be
before I read it. She has always hated Lance, Levi and Bruyneel, so this defense of Vuelta idiocy hardly comes as a surprise. I can sense that Gavia is actually pleased about this snub. Nice opportunity for a few underhanded digs.
Before anyone starts to think this move was some kind of anti-American conspiracy, Garmin-Transitions and HTC-Columbia, who last I checked are American teams, will ride the race.
So who said anything about an anti-American conspiracy? But even if one wanted to go there, those teams wouldn’t disprove anything since neither team is likely to challenge for the GC.
No, there is no sane or rational reason for RS having been left out? Is Wiggins going to do a third Grand Tour this year? Who is Sky going to bring to the party that can go top 10 in the GC? But there has to be a reason, even if it’s not sane and rational. Seems to me that RS has been very good about sending teams to Spain to support that endless stream of early season Spanish stage races. So are Armstrong and Bruyneel being punished for their fallout with the Spanish national treasure, Contador? Did the Kazakhs slip Javier Guillen some money so that Vino would get a shot to take a Grand Tour over a very weak field? Who knows. Is it about doping issues? Then why is Caisse there and why is Astana there with Vino in their lineup. Or how could it be specifically about Armstrong doping issues since they already know that he will not be there. In any case, Guillen has already denied that the snub had anything to do with doping or the Landis accusations. People run into absurd situations and their immediate reaction is to try to find a way to make them make sense. In this case, the only thing that is really going to explain it is something stupid of which only the Vuelta oranizers are aware.
Omg omg omg omg omg omfg
news flash!!! Gav, a blog writer…has opinions!!!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Yes, many of them, depending on when you ask her.
She used to hang out over at forums.bicyling.com. When Contador rode for Liberty Seguros, she thought that he was such a beautiful rider. She loved him. Then when Bruyneel picked him up Gav started bad mouthing him and implying that he was a doper. And how could anyone who rode for Manolo Sainz not be a doper, etc. Now that he has fallen out with Bruyneel, and now that he is riding against him, Gav thinks that he is just fine again. Gav will even try to reform opinions of Vinokourov since he is also on the outs with Bruyneel. Yes, Gav has opinions. The only constant in Gav’s opinion is in her irrational hatred of Bruyneel, Lance, and Levi. The bending of reality to conform to that feeling is infinitely flexible. Attacking Bruyneel because he was upset about the snub is just another manifestation of that flexible reality. Yes, I know, she makes nice jokes and quips, and she says cute things, like, “I’m going to ride my bikee”; and being a Lance and Bruyneel hater is considered to be so in and so sheik to a certain shallow mutual admiration club with delusions of superiority, that Gav can’t help but being a hit. Personally, I’m a little underwhelmed by the social veneer. She is as motivated by simple, ugly, hatred as you are. She just hides it better.
by tamburlaine on Jun 15, 2010 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Gav: "I'd hate to see a good temper tantrum go to waste."
Well, there you go. Bon Appetit.
by tamburlaine on Jun 16, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Nice paragraph of hatred for someones hatred
hater
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Quitter's People United member # 42
And no I don't hide it because I don't feel I need to
Lance and JB aren’t divine creatrues exempt from peoples disdain as much as you’d like it.
Los Geht's Deutschland!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42
Are you able to tell the difference between disdain and obsession?
Are you so self rightous that you feel like you have the right to beat people over the head with your obsession on a daily basis – people who may feel differently from you.
by tamburlaine on Jun 16, 2010 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions
If people disagree thats cool
do you feel self righteous enough to tell me how often I can express my opinion?
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Quitter's People United member # 42
come on dude
not sure how long you’ve been hanging around here, but you’re last few posts have been some of the most mean spirited ad hominems i’ve seen. if you’re looking for people whose opinions are unchanging and match yours, try a cult.
you’re the only one beating people over the head here. why don’t you write some editorial content so we can all rip you a new one.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
but tamburlaine, for all of his mongol vitriol
is till no billdozer . . .
sorry to disappoint, hunny.
forgot about billdozer
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
we can always pretend it is
the more you say it, the more true it becomes.
sort of like being the most tested athlete.
given the way this polemica discussion has gone, this might not have been the best time to bring that up. by the way, i got a comment through on velonews’ last mailbag. pretty proud of myself. (but that doesn’t take much)
http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/06/news/landis-lance-motors-and-the-code-of-silence_120413
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
it's your fantasy
you can make it whomever you’d like. i assume everyone on here who isn’t me is emilia fahlin. she set up this whole website just so she could spend more time with me. sweet girl.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
my wife might object to such thought processes on my part
I just assume that all non-Chris-related posters (possibly including me) are electro-magnetically- altered salmon.
Do you think this is a good place for a personal attack... and how do you think it advances your cause?
I’m really disappointed RS won’t be at the Vuelta, and I fail to see how such a decision was reached. That said, when you attack the person, rather than the ideas, you move me towards the other ‘side’. I think you seem to have overlooked the fact that your ‘hatred’ of Lance ‘haters’ is also toxic… and you know what? I think Gav makes a pathetic ‘hater’… there’s little venom in what she says…. and lots of interesting commentary.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
"I think Gav makes a pathetic ‘hater’"
That I think is very true. In fact, most regulars on this site are bad haters, yes even Phil H.
So Tamburlaine isn’t a fan of Gav’s commentary, which interests me because Tamburlaine reminds me of myself when I burst on the scene here, but it was Gav that first attracted me here (is that irony?). I’ve seen what Tamburlaine points out to some extent as well, but as I said to someone who asked me to leave this site a long time ago “I don’t like to surround myself with like-minded people… or nodders”.
When Tamburlaine speaks out, it makes me feel like I’ve gone ‘soft’, but if I’ve gone soft it’s because I’ve seen change here. And where there hasn’t been change in people’s opinions, there has been a continued growth in respect and tolerance.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
by sminer on Jun 16, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There's a willingness to listen I think...
and an understanding too, that you get more with honey than vinegar…
You haven’t gone soft.. rather we have all shifted a little to accommodate one another’s viewpoints.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
I'm a bad hater?
dude you are ruining my street cred!! Take it back now!
Los Geht's Deutschland!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42
I'm not worried about what he would say
I’m worried that he may not give me his 21,000 sq ft home he is selling now.
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Quitter's People United member # 42
wow!
a gav-hater (not everyone loves floppy hats? seriously??). I think this is a case for Terry Tate, office linebacker.
hells yeah
"You know if there's any contact at all Cristiano Ronaldo's gonna go down...maybe even just a puff of wind"
wtf?
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
An objectionable statement in your post:
“…considered to be so in and so sheik to a certain shallow mutual admiration club with delusions of superiority”?
The pettiness of your post is evidence of a lack of understanding of how a forum works when people have respect for each other? Civility isn’t a delusion and it is superior to most if not all of the options. Engaging in personal attacks doesn’t work here.
Bicycling is the nearest approximation I know to the flight of birds. Louis J. Helle, Jr.
What respect?
“The pettiness of your post is evidence of a lack of understanding of how a forum works when people have respect for each other? "
Where is the respect when Bruyneel, Armstrong and Leipheimer and RS are constantly attacked. What other teams or riders are constantly attacked that way. I’m a fan of Bruyneel, Armstrong, Leipheimer, Horner, Brajkovic – the whole RS team. Other people are as well. I don’t see any respect for my preferences. I see nothing but meanness, contrived arguments, and hatred in these attacks. I don’t attack the riders and teams that other people like – at least not as an endlessly repeating pattern – even when I don’t like those riders and teams. So if your message is “shut up and take it because we RS haters are the cool people here”, then forget it. That’s not going to happen. When you have these kinds of attacks on one team you are no longer just exchanging opinions. You are bashing the fans of that team and you are trying to diminish the team and it’s fans with repetitive, pointless smears. It is more like politics than bike racing. So the motivation behind why people are making such attacks become fair game for review.
by tamburlaine on Jun 16, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
so, based on your reasoning above i should jump all over majope and personally attack her because she constantly disses my spanish boys?
i don’t follow teams. i follow specific riders. i use to be a fan of armstrong’s. then, to paraphrase george carlin, “you learn, you grow”.
i like jani and popo and zubes and sergio. i adore chechu, and am extremely disappointed that he won’t be able to ride the cima chechu rubiera at this year’s giro.
i do respect other forum members’ viewpoints, just as they respect mine. personal attacks against other FORUM members are frowned on. how you can perceive that bashing a specific rider or team is bashing fans of that team is beyond me. if you’re a fan of a rider or a team, why does someone else’s viewpoint bother you so much?
see sminer’s post above.
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
by umwolverine on Jun 16, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Funny that
seeing you are the only one who has bashed any poster for their views. No one looks down on people who root for Lance or RadioShack riders. Anyone can root for whom they like and dislike whom they want. It seems you are the only one who has not grasped this. You call me obsessed but I am far from personally attached from anything Lance and JB do. I don’t know Contador or any rider I root for, if someone bashes them it would be idiotic to think they are indirectly bashing me. Seems you are personally attached though.
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respect each other is what the sentence you quoted says
not respect everything. the reason there is no respect for your preferences is that your preferences (at least in this case) are to rip on other commenters. why couldn’t you just present us with a reasoned counter argument to what gav said instead of attacking her?
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
I gave you the answer to that in my post.
First Gav loves Contador when he rides for Liberty Seguros. Then she accuses him of being doper when Bruyneel picks him up. Then she likes him again when he rides in opposition to Bruyneel. There is nothing reasoned to her preferences. People can throw rationalizations at each other forever. Most peoples arguments are not reasoned. They are simply rationalizations for their emotional reactions. And their emotional reactions are typically based on things that have nothing to do with the rationalizations that they invent. So why should I throw rationalizations back and forth when they really have nothing to do with the basis of why people are expressing what they are expressing. I can deal with fair criticism of RS and it’s riders. But that is not what we are seeing here. What we see here is a political campaign that tries to find the negative in everything that RS does and exploit it to the utmost to beat RS over the head. Now the people that are doing that may not have the direct intention of bashing RS fans – or maybe they do. Regardless, they know that is the result. So if they don’t care about bashing me, then I don’t care about bashing them. Your reaction is that you expect RS fans to keep the peace and not say anything while you do your thing. It’s a peace based upon the idea that one group of fans be willing to behave like second class citizens. Well, screw that. I’m not going to the back of the bus.
so . . . what's reasoned in YOUR preferences????
It might be time to start quoting Tristam Shandy on hobby-horses. At length.
people's opinions change
the three stages of gav’s opinion of contador you mention happened over years. all sorts of things happen over years. for one, people’s associations change (as in who contador does business with). and for two, the various factors people use to form opinions can change, or the weight of each can fluctuate. especially in cycling, with all the crap that comes out all the time, i would think that if your opinion of a rider does not change over their career, you’re probably ignoring a bunch of stuff.
regarding the political campaign thing, really? do you think people here orchestrate their actions with a singular purpose? do we all hate horner? do we bash RS fans? (we do bash the lance is a saint crowd, but we, or at least i, differentiate the two) my reaction is not to “expect RS fans to keep the peace.” i expect everyone to keep the peace. and there is a difference between keeping the peace and keeping your mouth shut. i’ve disagreed with plenty of people here, but i don’t recall attacking their preferences. i will argue with their reasoning, but i don’t assume that it comes from some underlying personality flaw, and don’t attack them personally. (or at least i hope i haven’t:) it’s not what you’re saying that unpeaceful, it’s how you’re saying it. you could have backed up JB’s reaction instead of attacking gav. that would have been peaceful, while at the same time contradictory to what gav was saying.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Good example.
“the three stages of gav’s opinion of contador you mention happened over years. "
The idea that this change had nothing to do with Contador’s switch to Bruyneel’s team and with Gav’s disdain for Bruyneel, that it was just incidental – that is my idea of rationalizing and arguing in bad faith. People can do that kind of thing infinitely. But unless you get to why they are doing it, you are never going to get anywhere. The idea of countering irrational, emotionally based arguments with more of the same doesn’t appeal to me. I’m not saying that valid information doesn’t get exchanged here. But most of the non ending RS bashing doesn’t fall into that category.
I'm constantly amazed
at how people always tend to see the arguments they dislike and ignore the ones that go along with their own opinions. As a non-american I would say there is a tremendous amount of positive bias towards american riders here, Shackers included. And why on earth should it not with a mainly american following? Yes there are people negative toward the LA-posse but there is also the opposite.
And should you feel that not enough positive is said about RS , contribute in a positive way. There are opportunities to make Fanposts and Fanshots (and comments), use them to make the positive counterpoint to what you feel is unjust negativity.
it's a lot easier to just call out people that say things you don't like
that way you don’t have to be rational yourself, you can just accuse others of irrationality. witch hunt style, baby. silence the naysayers. sue for libel and slander. when the opposition is destroyed, you, by default, become right.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
People who call others who attempt to make reasoned arguments irrational
without supplying reasoning as to why they are calling them irrational…yeah makes perfect sense.
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Quitter's People United member # 42
"And why on earth should it not with a mainly american following?"
Among many pseudo intellectuals it is considered to be kind of homerish and red neck to be nationalistic. So they trade one in crowd for what they consider to be a more stylish and exclusive in crowd; the ones bashing the home boys. Of course they don’t do it across the board. That would be too transparent. Instead they target the favorites of the group that they have labled the ignorant homers.
among many sports fans
it is considered perfectly normal to be nationalistic.
jesus fucking christ dude: “Of course they don’t do it across the board. That would be too transparent. Instead they target the favorites of the group that they have labled the ignorant homers.”
do you really think we put that much evil thought into our supposed political campaign to continuously bash anything to do with RS? who’s the irrational nutjob now? we designed a website so that we could sit around all day and come up with the best way to bash RS.
why don’t you quit before you make a complete ass of yourself, cap’n rational? and report back to the RS headquarters with the good news that the PdC threat has been neutralized.
my patience has run out. i have now sunk to your level.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Maybe you should go to the RS forums
and be with like minded “intellectuals” who throw around such oddly executed responses that don’t have to do with the discussion in hand. Are you claiming there is some sort of conspiracy here, we’re just out to get Bruyneel and Lance? That’s ridiculous, honestly.
"You know if there's any contact at all Cristiano Ronaldo's gonna go down...maybe even just a puff of wind"
i never said it had nothing to do with the switch to bruyneel's team
i actually said that whom contador does business with may have something to do with it, and that would a perfectly good reason. shit, if you found out your favorite cyclist was hanging out with fuentes, kim jong il, or any other person you might find despicable, wouldn’t your opinion change?
and how do you know the arguments are irrational and emotionally based? do you know gavia? can you tell me for sure where her opinions come from, or are you being irrational and emotional too?
in case you weren’t aware, countering any argument with ad hominem is not only does not appeal to anyone here, but it’s actually the exact thing we try to avoid.
and regarding the non ending RS bashing, how can you make that statement while at the same time calling others out about being irrational and emotional? there’s plenty of love for many things RS around here. for one, i support horner no matter what, and i’ve said plenty of nice things about him here. so how can the bashing be non ending?
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
“i actually said that whom contador does business with may have something to do with it, and that would a perfectly good reason.”
Fine, then say, “I’m disgusted with Contador because he signed with Bruyneel and I hate Bruyneel.” Don’t go on about Contador being a beautiful rider before and then start implying that he is a doper after. That is simply rationalizing based on other emotions.
why don't i say that?
cause i don’t think that you. i was merely stating that there could be a lot of explanations (rational at that) for gav’s opinion change. but you’re unwilling to hear anything, as your opinion of gavia has already been set in stone.
and if association with known or suspected dopers or dope encouragers is rationalization based on emotion, then yes, you are right.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
"cause i don’t think that you"
should be “cause i don’t think that”
my irrationality is showing :(
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
"why don't I say that?"
We were talking about Gavia’s reaction to Contador, not yours.
“and if association with known or suspected dopers or dope encouragers is rationalization based on emotion, then yes, you are right.”
Well, then, Gav should also hate Riis, Pantani, Ricco, DiLuca, Vinokourov, Pellizotti, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc, with the same passion that she hates Bruyneel. In fact, if her reasoning about Contador being a doper because he rode for Saiz was true back then, then she should still hate Contador.
Well . . .
I don’t recall Gav’s Contra-Conta position being expressed too forcefully, ever.
Seems to me that she was one of them insufferable ifp’s who supported Contador over Brunhilde and Pharma-strong last year during the tour.
So, I’d challenge Tambourine to back up the rattling with some specific textual evidence.
You should be able to find these by doing a search
From forums.bicycling.com.
Before being picked up by Bruyeel:
Gav:
“Hopefully, he will be able to clear himself. Contador, I mean (I forgot to quote, d’oh). He is so lovely on the bike, I’d like to have the chance to watch him ride for a few years more yet. "
and
“the latest Fuentes stuff? He says he has no idea who Contador is. Looks like all hope is not totally lost…”
After being picked up by Bruyneel:
Gav:
“Contador. Sh-t, that guy has ridden for Saiz his whole career. He’s mentioned liberally in the documents and yet, lo and behold, he is somehow definitely not involved with Fuentes. In fact, Fuentes has never heard of him. Uh, huh. I’d like to buy the Eiffel Tower, anyone selling?”
R Mc:
“Seems to me that she was one of them insufferable ifp’s who supported Contador over Brunhilde and Pharma-strong last year during the tour.”
Of course. If there is a split, then she is with Contador. If Contador is with Bruyneel and Armstrong, then he is doping dog poop.
Seems like a good idea
to look up how everyone was reacting to the slow trickle of news in the early days of Puerto. By the time Bruyneel signed AC we all had a much clearer picture of how Puerto had been handled, the in blanco letters of innocence from the spanish federation and more insight into Saiz’s teamculture. A lot of people changed their opinions on a lot of things in the timeframe you mention.
But you see what you want to see.
Okay.
“By the time Bruyneel signed AC we all had a much clearer picture of how Puerto had been handled,”
If that clearer picture revealed that Contador was a doper. Then why not continue to consider him one.
what about references to Contador during last year's tour??
I think you’ll find that Gav was largely supportive of Contador whilst he was riding for Bruyneel (and whilst Bruyneel and Armstrong were carrying on like they were auditioning for parts in Mean Girls).
As for the either/or logic about “doping dog poop” I think you’re imposing your set of moral categories onto someone else’s set of judgments. Someone can ride beautifully AND be a doper. AND, a ‘fan’ can realize that professional cycling is full of questionable performance enhancement therapies.
You’re making the whole decision process ride on association with Bruyneel . . . not that Bruyneel has not given people enormous reasons in the last couple of years to consider him an opportunist smarm whose tactical command is greatly assisted by having the strongest rider and team in the race.
His greatest ds-ing job, in my opinion? The 03 Vuelta. And who were the most valuable players in that run? Landis and Heras.
If I were an opportunist,
“not that Bruyneel has not given people enormous reasons in the last couple of years to consider him an opportunist smarm whose tactical command is greatly assisted by having the strongest rider and team in the race.”
I would throw out the old guy who had, at best, a long shot chance of getting me one more Tour and I would stay friendly with the young guy who could very likely get me three or four more Tour victories.
well . . .
Bruyneel tried that . . . until Armstrong decided he wanted to race again.
There’s a lot that has not been reported about the unwinding of Tailwind/Discovery that I wish I knew more about.
There were rumors of animosity between the Belgian contingent and Knaggs and Stapleton that seemed supported by the weird ebay auction of Discovery bikes and some rumors about the Belgian service course being cleared out—look up stories about when Bruyneel took over Astana for references.
That Bruyneel and Armstrong have a rapport that could weather some unpleasantness is understandable. But I could make my characterization worse: remember, Armstrong hired Bruyneel in 98. I’m certain that Bruyneel does.
So . . . given the opportunity to jump ship to a fairly certain payday with an established sponsor (and a somewhat questionable racing organization in terms of the gaping hole of riders actually AT their racing peak years) instead of having to deal with a fractious group of sponsors and riders with opinions that differ from yours . . . yeah . . . Bruyneel took his best opportunity.
Both from a personal and a marketing perspective: after all, any one who could have ever seriously puffed a 33 year-old George Hincapie as a GT gc threat . . .
by R Mc on Jun 16, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Opportunists
“Bruyneel tried that . . . until Armstrong decided he wanted to race again.”
Why would Bruyneel care what Armstrong wanted. Astana wasn’t going to make him take Armstrong.
“Armstrong hired Bruyneel in 98.”
Again, why would a true opportunist care about that. “Water under the bridge”, “what have you done for me lately”, “what can you do for me in the future”. That is what the opportunist would say.
“So . . . given the opportunity to jump ship to a fairly certain payday with an established sponsor "
That happened after Armstrong was taken back in and had nothing to do with the opportunists choice. Before there was a RadioShack Bruyneel had to decide to take back Armstrong, piss off Contador and take a chance on loosing him.
And Bruyneel could simply have taken back Vino, raced more Kazakhs, collected his paycheck, collected Tour wins, and avoided all the problems like any good opportunist would.
"Someone can ride beautifully AND be a doper."
Certainly. Did you forget the part where she says, "I’d like to have the chance to watch him ride for a few years more yet. "
Not entirely sure what's wrong with these statements
Contador is exciting racer who most of us like to watch work magic. Yes Contador did ride for Saiz, and most of his team doped. Yes he is involved in the OP paperwork to some extent, since he was initially named, and I still wonder why exactly he and his teammates were acquitted. The tone may change, but the attitude can be rationalized as someone with the same broad stance.
"You know if there's any contact at all Cristiano Ronaldo's gonna go down...maybe even just a puff of wind"
You fail to diferrentiate
between people dissing the teams and pros and people dissing other members. No one is saying that you are an evil troll who slobbers all over RS or shit like that. We can understand where you are coming from and your fandom. But when you then attack other members because they do not agree with your views that’s when the discussion becomes heated and pointless. We welcome your views about the Shack and would like thoughtful and respectful debate, I’m sure you can handle this. We do not welcome your name calling and attacks on fellow forum members.
Los Geht's Deutschland!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42
Okay, I'm going to try one more time.
“You fail to diferrentiate between people dissing the teams and pros and people dissing other members.”
Up to a point criticism of other teams and riders is just a natural part of the discussion. But carried out long enough and hard enough and in a mean spirited way were you are searching for anything to interpret negatively and use against that team or against a DS or against a rider, the you are dissing the members that are fans of that team. You can try to justify your attacks because you like making them and you will say anything to defend what you know you intend to keep doing, but I take offence at those remarks and I take offence at some of Gav’s remarks and voicing that is what I intend to keep doing. Not with an unending series of counter-rationalizations that have nothing to do with the reason for the remarks in the first place. But rather by trying to get at the reason why such mean spirited remarks are being made in the first place.
Uncovering the emotional motives
behind why people post certain opinions on the internet. Good luck with that.
by Jens on Jun 16, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Again you cannot grasp that people see things as rational or reasoned differently than you
you have not once attempted to tell me why you believe what I am saying is irrational and incorrect. Instead you have resorted to name calling and assumptions about why people believe certain things and about their motives behind it.
First you insult Gavia for flip flopping but then you complain about the argument being carried out too long, which shows consistency, what is it?
Los Geht's Deutschland!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42
alright freud
can you stop with the “searching for anything to interpret negatively and use against that team or against a DS or against a rider” type crap please? or not. how about saying searching for anything to interpret negatively and use against that team or against a DS or against a rider while molesting a kitten and getting a blowjob from a transvestite (nttawwt) instead? just because you think of us as crazed anti RS robots doesn’t necessarily mean we are. stick to facts if you’re accuse others of being irrational and emotional.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
speaking of attacking
As someone who “respects” Radio Shack and likes all of those riders, how do you defend Radio Shack’s tactical decisions in the last 20k of the last stage of the Tour of California?
To me, proud consumer of h8terade and h8tertots that I am, the decision to chase down Horner’s bunch seemed ripped right from the old T-Mobile “snatching defeat from the jaws of victory” play-book.
When did I defend that move?
It was stupid. But all teams do stupid things all the time. It’s not an excuse to be a non stop basher. Look at the big picture, not just little things that you can pick apart. I remember screaming at Bruyneel through the TV when he let Rassmussen go up the road in that Tour that Rassmussen would have won had it not been for Contador and Bruyneel getting lucky. But Bruyneel has been one of the most successful guys in the business, and they probably do more right than virtually any other team.
I love unanswerable arguments from cliches and platitudes
that boil down to “drink the koolade and see things my way” and if you don’t you’re bashing.
Seriously, if your precious preferences are so invested in a bike team that you can’t handle criticism of that team, find somewhere else to read or something else to do.
"Bruyneel has been one of the most successful guys in the business"
so was Manolo Saiz. that makes neither a saint, and at least for one of them, some of the things that were done “right” weren’t quite right, now were they?
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Pop Quiz!
Does this line of argument reveal that:
A: You love cancer
or
B: You hate America?
Vlaanderens Mooiste
Where is C: Both?
cause obviously that’s where we all stand
Los Geht's Deutschland!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42
I'm getting the picture now
“Bruyneel has been one of the most successful guys in the business, and they probably do more right than virtually any other team.” Yes, you believe RS is the best team in the peloton, you cannot accept why such great riders and tacticians can be questioned morally, and see all such responses as blasphemy. He’s not a saint, don’t treat him like one. Its ok to be a team fan, i am to an extent, but to attack someone because they can’t defend your team is absurd.
"You know if there's any contact at all Cristiano Ronaldo's gonna go down...maybe even just a puff of wind"
by agl on Jun 16, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Note how Sky and Astana, to name two teams are treated
or look at some of the Bah comments.
Lots of teams and riders have folks who don’t like them. The difference is that most of the community here is polite and understanding when others don’t care for our cycling darlings.
For example, I was a HUGE fan of Paolo Bettini and still am a fan of Quickstep and Pat Lefevre. Bettini goes by the moniker “Evil Cricket” here. Lefevere’s reputation is about on par with Bruyneel, with the possible difference being that fewer people pay attention to allegations against him than they do to allegations about the US teams. But it is all cool, because we are polite and respectful to each other. Plus, I’m willing to recognize that the difference between Quickstep and Radio Shack is that Quickstep’s skeletons stay in the closet.
Personally, I wonder at all the polemica aimed at Vino when other riders coming off of suspensions (Scarponi (Zapatero), Basso (Birillo), or Leukemans get off without nearly so much comment. But it’s cool because polemica is fun and it isn’t mean spirited.
If you are willing to look, you’ll see a lot of folks saying nice things about RS riders. Horner, in particular has a big fan base. Kloedi has a huge fan base here as well. Zubeldia has a metric tonne of PdC support, we love our euskal herritarrak here.
You’ll also find plenty of folks who view the Shack as black hats. That is cool too.
Mostly though, I think you’ll find people who appreciate PdC as a place where riding and riders are adored and as a shelter from the constant Lance-polemic found on most US based or English speaking cycling sites. RS doesn’t have a magic immunity from polemica card, but they are big boys and can take their lumps like adults. Plus, I’m fairly certain that they are the target of much less Bah-itude than Sky or Cavendish.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
bah sky! bah cavendish!
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Respect between the people participating in this forum is abundant.
Basically you’ll find that people are free to disagree with each other and often do. We just like to keep it in the upper half of this pyramid.
Respect for the individual riders and teams and their actions is in abundance also, but they do have a tendency to win and lose it from day to day based on each of our own individual perceptions of events. This is what we discuss, not the character of the poster. By discussing civilly we will almost always learn something we didn’t know and gain more appreciation for the sport. It’s not a hard thing to do, and the payback is continual.
Bicycling is the nearest approximation I know to the flight of birds. Louis J. Helle, Jr.
No one's bashing any fans
why would you take offense to someone’s opinions. I’ve found that there really aren’t all that many RS haters here, there wasn’t much hate at all until you came around slinging mud on people.
"You know if there's any contact at all Cristiano Ronaldo's gonna go down...maybe even just a puff of wind"
Oh my god
i always had a sneaking suspicion Lance was lurking on this site, now I know.
No, but really, what the hell’s your point other than that you’re a bitter lance apologist who can’t really accept someone’s opinions. Attacking people in such a way is ridiculous, you have no right to make judgments of someone else’s intentions, to say they are irrational and inspired by ugly hatred.
Oh, and the whole Bruyneel thing isn’t necessarily sheik, ive never liked the man, and thats not because its trendy, but because some of us may have reason to believe he is incredibly fishy. Lance didn’t ride clean, bruyneel ran a doping ring within his team, and it may soon be exposed. Opinion is opinion, and it is welcome here, but still you should not go out of your way to publicly denounce somebody and try to act like you understand their intentions, when you really don’t.
"You know if there's any contact at all Cristiano Ronaldo's gonna go down...maybe even just a puff of wind"
I don't know if she is but I am
I can sense that Gavia is actually pleased about this snub.
by ZoeRochelle on Jun 15, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
you're probably right
they probably just put all the team names up on a wall and threw darts to see who’d they invite. no need to try to find out what their reasoning may have been. they’re just a bunch of irrational and insane idiots who have no idea what they’re doing.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Chapeau!
You managed to find a “defense of Vuelta idiocy” in Gavia’s post? Marvellous.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Jun 16, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
hey, if you can't find polemica
create your own.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
can somebody pull out the banhammer on tamburlame?
i’m about to start being very un-PdC.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
My .02 usd
say unplug and go have a beer. Arguing with trolls is thirsty work.
Besides, how do you argue against the logic of “People hate Bruyneel because they hate America.” I guess it’s better than loving cancer…
The benefit of unplugging and drinking beer is that it inevitably leads to the question: what was the point of that argument anyway?
Sure we want to defend our Gavia against impolite and ill-mannered behavior, but feeding the troll isn’t a terribly effective way of doing this. Anyway, if I was at home I’d pop open a Moonlight Belgian White Ale (best beer in a can ever?).
Vlaanderens Mooiste
i wish i was home
but i do see your point, and will follow your unplug advice. the way of the Koppenberg is a wise one, but unfortunately it is not my default reaction. thanks for your two cents. and to think i was in such a good mood today, having gone for a ride with my friends before work. i will return to my usual occupation of finding mean things to say about RS.
i’ll see you RS bashers in a less troll ridden post.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Oops, it's Blue Moon, not Moonlight
But very good, and in a can! My previous award for best beer in a can went to Caldera’s IPA. It’s gooooood stuff.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
You see how Gav hasn't responded
smart woman she is.
Los Geht's Deutschland!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42
maybe we should just let gav do the talking
gav, why are you such an emotional and irrational RS despiser who says cute things like "I’m going to ride my bikee"?
and can you teach me how to bend reality? i really want to get into that matrix 5hit.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
And the moral of the story is...
…why on Earth would anyone feed the trolls?
It breaks my heart to pass on so many
golden opportunities for mockery here, but I’m just going to leave this thread alone and note that I’m proud of y’all. Even Phil H.
First word in the title is "Polemica"
Nobody should have come to this party with high heels on unless they really know how to walk in them.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
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