Know Your Tour: Is Riding On Cobblestones a Good Idea?
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 5, 2010 1:09 PM EDT
in Tour de France
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This year's Tour de France takes the peloton across the Nord-Pas-de-Calais region of northern France, known well to cycling fans for the presence of some of the worst roads found anywhere in the sport. In April, this department of France hosts the pointy end of the Paris-Roubaix classic, known as the Hell of the North (and the Queen of the Classics) for its legendary trips over cobblestones, including long stretches, poor conditions and some of the most unpleasant stones you'd ever think twice about riding your bike across. And now these same stones will be known for hosting Stage 3 of the 2010 Tour de France.
Cobbles of Paris-Roubaix. Photo by Chris Fontecchio, Podium Cafe
Paris-Roubaix and the other cobbled classics in Belgium are a subculture within the sport of cycling -- and to be honest, my favorite races of the year. In spring, the slippery, bouncy stones combine with often nasty weather to create a massive spectacle of cycling: riders covered in mud, slipping out, sometimes having to walk their bike, huge gaps opening up on what look like flat roads, intricate tactics and throngs of cycling-mad fans lining the road regardless of conditions. If you haven't watched the Classics before, do yourself a favor. Honestly.
The basic truth about riding on cobblestones -- which I did in earnest this past spring for the first time -- is that riding over a bumpy, uneven surface kills your bike's natural momentum and requires you to ride much, much harder to maintain your speed. On a normal, paved road, the lack of serious friction can combine with the air vacuum a large pack creates and pull you along almost effortlessly at times, or at least at far less effort than you otherwise would have to muster. Riders who plan to contest the sprint and want to save their energy for that last all-out burst can hide out in the pack all day and minimize their energy losses. Well, on the cobbles there is no place to hide. If you don't pedal hard, your bike won't be moving for long.
Whatever tricks there are to mastering the cobbles are generally only of help to the chosen few. Two things riders often say are that you should look first to the center of the cobbled path for the easiest line, and that you might want to be close to the front, not behind 150 guys, if you want to be able to see the road beyond the next five feet. I would say that in Belgium the crown of the road was more often than not preferable, but the few places we checked out in France lived according to no set rules about where your best line was. And as for being up front, when you have 100 guys all thinking they need to be one of the first ten riders to hit a cobbled stretch, well... you do the math. The minutes before a cobbled stretch can be some of the most intensely competitive moments in the sport.
Apart from picking a line and pedaling harder, the stones can really upset a rider who isn't used to them. The vibrating is intense, and lasts for up to 4km, four long, slow kms. Obviously they go at something like double my speed, but I remember coming off the long stretches and practically having to peel my fingers off my handlebars, unlocking the death grip I'd held for the last ten minutes. We rode one sector which I believe is the last one appearing on stage 3, the Secteur Bernard Hinault, which I will always remember. My brother and I were riding merrily along a quiet street, following the Paris-Roubaix route signs, when they suddenly pointed left into a field. Only when I started turning did I see the ancient trail of cobblestones, looking like they'd been freshly unearthed just hours before. It's an experience unlike anything else... and not one riders like Alberto Contador will be looking forward to while trying to stay in contact with the Tour -- and some of the world's best cobbles experts like Fabian Cancellara and George Hincapie and Juan Antonio Flecha, who will be on hand to mix it up on the day.
In truth, while the cobblestones of Paris-Roubaix separate the weak from the strong with extreme prejudice, the mini-Paris-Roubaix in store at the Tour probably won't amount to much more than a good show. The cobble stretches chosen by the Tour are few in number and not among the worst of the worst (read about them in detail here). Furthermore, the race rides ends with about 12km of normal streets for guys who lost touch on the stones to catch up. They will contain an element of danger -- the cobblestones have broken innumerable bikes, tires and a few collarbones over the last century. If it rains that day, look out. But assuming decent conditions, the famed pave will shake up the riders without unduly stirring the race. That's for later.
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Well, McEwen says it will be carnage over those stones
The closest I have come to riding over European cobbles is Melbourne’s cobbled laneways (read: not close at all). They’re okay—unless they’re wet. But doing many miles even on roads of that standard would be bloody hard on the hands.
Well, I suppose these guys are pros. And it is France. Which they’re doing a tour of, you know? So I say ‘bring it on’.
I've begun to change my mind on this one.
After seeing so many crashes and injuries that are completely unrelated to a rider’s bikehandling ability or fitness, I’m wondering about the inclusion of these “spectacles” into the race.
If skill, fitness, or awareness don’t have an effect on a stage’s outcome, can it really said to be racing, rather than just gambling?
I really like the one-day races, but they don’t try and run such HUGE groups over the tiny roads. In the Ronde, everything stretches out after the Koppenberg. In Paris-Roubaix, everything stretches out after the Trenchee d’Arenberg. When le tour comes through, though, the riders can’t afford to string out, so the racing is too much for the roads.
I think I’m switching over to being on the riders’ side. If they, as professionals, don’t think the risk is worth the reward, I’m going to have to agree with them. I mean really, who in their right mind is going to argue that Jens! or Cancellara isn’t as hard as the come? If those two think the conditions are unsafe for racing, I have to listen.
It may be that there are a lot of paying fans who are entertained by seeing blood on the road, but I don’t want the riders to risk injury and their livelihoods just to satisfy some knob’s bloodlust. There are a lot of roads in France. Race on wide, clean roads for the first week, then let the mountains do their work.
Running 180+ riders down narrow slick roads is foolish. Especially when there are safer alternatives. Sure the finish towns are a cash cow for the tour, but the riders have to come first. I don’t blame the riders at all for doing whatever they have to do to protect themselves.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
Point taken. But...
I approve the organizers trying to add some interest to the first week. I usually hate the first week of the Tour, raced “on wide, clean roads”. It’s not “bloodlust” to want to see some selection during the first week. Can’t we have something interesting? Otherwise, just tune in again tomorrow to see the last 10 minutes.
Does interest have to be crashes?
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Once again, I tend to disagree
If this is supposed to be the toughest race in the World, why so much compromise? Why not ride harder over Aizomont and Stockeu to string out the field and have only 50 riders upfront? Can’t the GC leaders afford this effort? Or as it was suggested in the other thread, why not pull back before the cobbles? Contador thinks it’s too risky to ride in the middle of the bunch? Have 5 Astanas drop with him 10" behind the peloton, they will be able to make the gap easily once on normal roads…
The two main problems with these suggestions are 1. It requires extra effort from the riders. 2. Large numbers of motorbikes and cars behind the peloton. For 1., I don’t think these efforts are huge and GC riders have to weight the pro/cons of risking the crash in the bunch and losing maybe 20" if they can’t make it back. For 2., the media presence around the Tour will be difficult to reduce but maybe stricter rules need to be enforced. The previous suggestions on alternate roads for cars and static roadside assistance are excellent.
by FrenchKheldar on Jul 5, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Is it really compromise
to allow the riders’ talent, preparation, and skill to determine success and failure rather than a random toss of the dice?
This is the reason the riders protest. They are athletes who want to race on their bikes, but they can’t race because the roads are too narrow and dangerous to accommodate the peloton.
So I’m all in favor of a challenge, I’m just not in favor of random selection. Challenge is good, but only if it leads to survival of the fittest. Survival of the survivors isn’t competition, it’s gambling.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
I don’t get the “ride 10 sec.s behind the peloton” thing…perhaps I’m missing something? Sounds like the easiest way to lose contact with the peloton, if you ask me. Or rather, with everyone who matters. The peloton is not going to stay intact over these roads – it’s going to split up worse than it did today. If someone like Schleck happens to be near the front, and a gap opens up between the Saxos and whoever’s behind them, Contador could lose minutes.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Jul 5, 2010 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Jens has ridden Roubaix once, so he has as much say on the matter of cobbles as Millar or Wiggins.
Please, let’s take opinions from other riders than two guys on the same damn team…There are other guys that do there jobs just as damn well. You can’t always run races on super highways…it isn’t going to happen because eventually people will stop tuning in and nobody will watch, thus the sport dies. A GT doesn’t always have to follow the formula, Sprints-Mountains-sprints-mountains-sprints. While rider safety needs to be taken into account and made a priority, you can’t let it rule the damn race…crashes are inevitable and will always happen and they are not always the course’s fault. Really if want to look at narrow roads then you can target mountain descents that are on boiling tarmac…What happened to Beloki that day in ‘03 wasn’t his fault so should we get rid of those roads? The Tour is a business whether you like it or not and you can’t just run the thing on French highways for 6 days…that’s boring for everybody.
Chavanel knows better than Jens! about cobbles…“Well, if they want to neutralize that stage and not race it, then they should just do it. It will only be to my advantage! Honestly, I don’t understand it. I think the rider that wins the Tour de France should be the most complete rider, at ease on the cobbles, in the mountains, in the time trials. It’s all part of it.”
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
That's a fair point. How about Chris Horner:
“They put on a dangerous stage and so when they put it on like that, that’s the result they’ll get,” Horner told Cyclingnews. “They got all their drama on the descent and they lost it all at the finish and they got what they deserved. The only thing more stupid about this stage is the pro cycling federation and Cedric Vasseur for ever letting a stage like this exist in the first place. There’s no place in the Tour de France for a stage like this.”
Vlaanderens Mooiste
I am wondering if Horner would say this after the stage if it wasn't wet... If it really was going to be that bad, the
teams are not blind and they could have raised questions about the route beforehand and not right after a stage. There could have been preventative measures for the downhill like re-routing traffic and the caravan around it along with tv coverage to make it as safe as possible while having neutral support on the side. I would be interested in having interviews to all the big riders and even the small ones about what their perfect Tour de France would look like…might be interesting to see what the riders want
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
I see where you’re coming from…but it is interesting that the 2 best cobbles guys right now (Cancellara and Boonen) hold the same opinion…
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Jul 5, 2010 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Good points…I tend to waffle quite a bit on this, and I’ll be glued to my tv tomorrow (probably won’t watch til evening but still)…but I think I’m leaning toward your point of view. I’ll just add this, on the differences between classics and GTs: it’s hard enough in the classics when the contenders start moving up when the cobbles start. To some degree, the teams hang back at that point, having shepherded (or not) their guys to where the action really begins. Tomorrow, in addition to the classics guys going for the stage win, you’ll have the teams of all the GC contenders going all out to get to/stay at the front, in order to keep their guys from losing time. That’s just a lot more bodies than the classics, where a natural selection is more likely to take place. (Don’t think I’ve ever said “natural selection” in my life, that was fun!)
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Jul 5, 2010 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah but,
the stage 1 crashes – i donno what you can say about those – rather typical imperfectly designed and set up sprint finish – cav for some reason deciding to go straight instead of turn – then some unstraight barriers and the third crash i’ve never heard why it happened. Nothing terribly unusual there though – certainly not a designed spectacle.
Then the problems yesterday were nothing to do with an intentional spectacle either – fucking oil got spilled on the road – that’s really all there is to it – otherwise i think we’d have had a fantastic stage yesterday.
Now finally, today is a bit of intentionally designed difficulty. I like the idea because though i’m a contador fan i agree with the folks who say that bike handling/racing also matter. I guess there is a question as to whether it’s appropriate – it does change things that it’s a grand tour and you have more people desperate to be at the front. The gc guys and all their teammates. Cobble guys who want to win the stage plus green jersey guys and people who want to make it to the sprint finish.
Plus in a classic race, if you lose you just lose that day. A 3 week race – the gc teams are going to be really desperate to not lose the entire race due to a little section of cobbles on stage 3. So that makes them all the more desperate to be well positioned, which makes for a more dangerous situation …
Well said..
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Chris, somehow, I picture you with a huge grin while suffering on the cobbles this spring in the Tour of Flanders cyclosportive. Question: would you (did you) use your own road bike on those things?
While you have converted me to the joy of watching the spring classics, from a riding point of view, I think I’ll stick to the very civilized (un-bumpy) Swiss cobbles:
moo
We rode our regular road bikes
except larger with tires (25mm) and I also used a compact crank to get up the 20+% walls in Flanders (Chris made it up the Kopp in his 39t, but I had to walk it). Honestly, for the cobbles of France, 25mm tires were too narrow. I can see why all the bigger guys ride 27/28mm tubulars. Smoothing them out is the only way to be fast. Our wheels and bikes survived 2 trips through Haveluy (aka Secteur Bernard Hinault) and the Forest, but one more trip through and my bike would have been like the Blues Mobile the moment Jake and Elwood stopped in front of the Cook County Assessor’s office after the 100 mile car chase.
by Peter Fontecchio on Jul 5, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks for that
yeah wider tires make a lot of sense. If I did a tourist visit, I’d probably happily just use my 35mm wheeled hybrid. (plus it has super easy gearing) ;)
moo
I'm back
sorry for the delay, been camping all weekend. As Pete said, if it’s good enough for their bikes, it’s good enough for mine.
"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 6, 2010 2:50 AM EDT up reply actions
There is another difference in the spring from the last two days of racing
The distance prior to the difficulty, in Liege you barely get a hill in the first 130 KM in Paris Roubaix the first cobbles come after 100KM and most of the difficulties come after 160 KM. The distance and the Pace make the difference. In the classics the peloton is tired by the time it get to the selective sections. Therefore, making selections is easier. In this mini liege no selection was made and the shit went down. We can only hope that before the cobbles some sort of selection is made so that we don’t have 200 guys slamming into a cobbled section en masse!
Carnage could be an understatement! Lets pray that all riders arrive safely at the finish tomorrow!
'When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning' - Dr. Reiner Knizia
by bought with blood on Jul 5, 2010 2:30 PM EDT reply actions
not gonna happen if the pack lets a break go and devotes itself to mostly soft-pedaling...
…as per usual in GT riding.
If I wanted Cobbles...
then I would have ridden Paris-Roubaix. With all of the incidents in this race after only two real stages, stage 3 could be a massacre. It’s a road race, NOT cyclo-cross. Leave the ’stones for the riders who want to ride the one day classic.
Complaining about these dangers
Is sorta like complaining about bull-riding being dangerous.
A lot of fans have this notion that cycling is genteel.
Bollocks.
Even genteel old-fart masters racing has a hefty dose of slamming around involved.
Look at the haussler/cavendish crash again. Neither one touched the brakes. Warriors.
The shirked responsibility’s on the part of the officials.
by R Mc on Jul 5, 2010 6:47 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
“warriors”?
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Jul 5, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Great post, I especially liked the bit about how drafting has less effect on cobbles, for the simple reason that you have to work so hard just to keep moving forward – no being “pulled along.” Learn something every day, thanks.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
Agreed.
I’ve ridden very short stretches of more or less shitty cobbles around here (and there are a few cart-path hills that are probably a couple hundred years old and feel like it), but never anything long enough to really grasp that point. It’s obvious now that I think about it, however, and I can see how huge a deal it would become.
Tough deal, this...
But I think that as a community, we have all been calling for the TdF organiseers to have more imagination, and break up the monotony of the first 7-10 days, no?
I mean on these boards, we have routinely remarked how much more interesting the Giro is because of the variety and imagination Zomes puts into his Corsas, and how much wide open the racing is, so I would like to think that the TdF boys have heard these complaints (presumably from other sources as well) and decided to spice 2010 up a bit to maintain their position as head GT honcho…(because really, pharmaceuticals aside, the racing in the Giro last 2 years has been totally gripping, while the Tdf has been….not)
Also, the complaints from Jens! and Tony Montana should be taken in context. Their leaders are a pair of tall, thin guys with terrible bike handling skills and a known propensity to fall off the bike on the smoothest, straightest roads- a lot. Cobbles will not be their bestest surface.
So the team send their finest, most respected rider to the front to lead the protest charge- I get it, but like I said, were the shoe on the other foot, I think that Fab might have a different opinion- Also, I suspect that we will not see the same level of concern for rider safety and rider rights when the time comes to tackle the Tourmalet twice in 2 days later this month…
Note the Radio Silence from the Shack or from BMC or the Cervelo Boys, or even Sky- Teams with Leaders who are reasonably good on the Cobbles and with burly domestiques who can Shepherd cats through, create space, and pace back onto Peloton in case of drama.
Hell, Conta took the opportunity for a nice piece of PsyOps by training with DerPeet on the Pave, and why do you think Millar did P-R this year?
Of course Cancellara is one of the finest, most powerful riders ever, and the respect shown him by the Peloton (in stark contrast to Boy Racer) is indicative of that. But IMHO, his position is about SAXOBANK, as opposed to any fundamental concern about overall peloton safety…
Which is fine, but let’s call this what it is- A protest designed to slow the peloton down to prevent AShleck from losing even MORE time in the 1st week…
On to today!
I didn't see today
so I can only say from the few clips I’m watching now that perhaps stage 2 had to do with greasy roads. I’m not convinced we’ll see so many problems on the cobbles.
"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 6, 2010 2:54 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah
think we need to keep in mind, now that we know what caused all the wrecks (oily road), that yesterday’s carnage was due to a weird accident and not a badly designed route. Would have been a great stage without that oil.
That said it seems the race organizers should have called things off when people were going down on flat stretches of road. I mean. And i wonder why they didn’t. Too late in coming to realize what was going on? Is there any reason for that? Seems like they could have done better, there.
But it was up in the oil slicks that the race needed to be neutralised, not at the finish.
I think this
would have been really insightful – if I’d had any idea who you were talking about.
Fab? Boy Racer? Great names – and likely very fitting – for someone.
Outsiders come here to learn from the insiders. But it’s very difficult for we outsiders to comprehend insider talk. No matter how hard we try. How ‘bout some hints? We’ll still respect you in the morning.
:)
Hi! I actually do know a bit about cycling....
And a bit about the nicknames we use for cyclists…“Fab” is one of several names this community uses for Cancellara (including “Tony”, “Tony Montana”, and “Spartacus”)
“Boy Racer” is the name of Cav’s autobio…
Greasy roads on the descent of the Stockeau has nothing to do with the what? 15K flat run in to the finish yesterday? They could have called off hostilities and still allowed the sprinters- say 10K to wind up their sprint?
“Fab”, declined to do this, because he wanted to preserve the position of his leader relative to the tete de la course (“Head of the race”)- Chapeau (“Tip of the hat”) to him, but again, this was not so much for rider welfare, than for his team position in the classement (“General classification” or “GC”)…
My point is that I suspect we wil not see this same concern for rider welfare when the roads are more in the Schlecks favour- I suspect that if it is pissiung rain on either ascent of the Tourmelet, Fab will just grind it out and say “That’s cycling”- Of course we will see if this is bourne out later this month…
Have been posting here for quite a while, and know more than my share about the current peoloton cycling history as well as the rules, etiquette and taxonomy of this community- Perhaps you could use a refresher?
Don’t worry- I’ll still respect you in the morning….
:-)
Besides being the title of Cavendish' "auto"-biography,
Boy Racer is also a popular culture reference.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
Where's the thread with all the nicknames? I can't remember its name... but it would help..
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Here:
http://www.podiumcafe.com/2010/5/17/1475554/rider-nickname-thesaurus
I’ll try to update it today, if I can get around this “work” thingy.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
Thanks John
It’s good to hear, we want to get the pitch right if possible. And welcome.
"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 6, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I love the way you say things even when i don't always agree :)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
i would look at it this way
if Cancellara was on Thor’s team, do you think he’d have been so eager to call off that sprint? No way. He waited for the schlecks – once they caught up there was no more interest in the day’s race for saxo – easy to call it off. Not at all the same for cervelo – especially since i think cav was dropped before the mayhem started. Hopefully it will not be a big deal in the end but i don’t blame Thor for being annoyed.
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