The Wall Street Journal story, Landis, Armstrong, and Doping
Landis details doping practices at Lance Armstrong's U.S Postal service team. Also, strippers make an appearance.
almost 2 years ago
Jen See
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Just finished it.
I’d not seen this level of detail before. When you read it like that it just sounds normal as can be. Then you reflect on the multi-million dollar fraud taking place.
Color me unimpressed
It’s a rehash of Floyd’s earlier story with more detail. I’m not really interested in how it happened, as I’m more looking for concrete proof that it did happen, and someone with credibility to confirm that this is how it happened.
The methods and drugs have changed, so detailing the processes doesn’t really do anything for me. If a recent doper came forward with methods and how, that would be useful. This to me, is more a history lesson and still he/said she/said.
Although, it looks like some people are starting to sing. I think the Fed inquiry puts the nail in the coffin, but that won’t come out for another couple of years.
"My clients dont care shit about romandie or mello johnny" - singhstax
I think
it’s only purpose was to add another on-the-record to the story with Walker Ferguson, who is out of cycling now.
Ferguson just said
that there was doping in cycling. Nothing more. I’ve been to a strip club. Is there anyone who hasn’t?
Well, me...
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
I've been, but just for the wicked awesome buffet!
I also read Playboy for the excellent articles.
by JustJoshinYa on Jul 2, 2010 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I've read the hottititude threads
but just to post a picture of bluffy!
Los Geht's Deutschland!!!!
Down with Argentina!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42
I thought the point of that incident was merely
that it was the first time Landis saw the distinction between the public persona (devoted family man) and the actual person behind it. but the fact that it involved strippers and blow certainly adds, um… an unsurprising sleeze factor.
and Ferguson did confirm the bit about the cocaine:
Mr. Landis and another young rider who attended, Walker Ferguson, said some people were snorting what appeared to be cocaine.
White lines Do't do It
What exactly is “appeared to be cocaine”? I mean , it is or it isn’t.Isn’t it?
by frans verbiage on Jul 3, 2010 2:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes. Lots of people, actually.
http://www.bah.net/
by dees ees en drama on Jul 3, 2010 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Strip Club?
Wow, I just googled this and learned that a strip club is a place where girls take off their clothes if you give them money.
It’s been fun people, but I have a new hobby now. Ciao.
"It was getting colder and colder as we went up. About halfway up, I started to go a little backwards and as I passed Thor he looked at me and said, "If you lose my wheel I will smash you." I took his wheel and found an extra gear." João Correia
Googling stuff?
I know, I can spend hours trying to find things on the internet.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Jul 3, 2010 6:15 AM EDT up reply actions
haha!
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Jul 3, 2010 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions
the "more detail" you mention is key I think
that, to me, makes this story at least a minor big deal. More things to talk about, more nuances to explore, more places for those involved to trip up, more details and people to come out of the woodwork, more places to perhaps expose inconsistencies in Landis’s story, etc etc etc.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Jul 2, 2010 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the bikes for cash part is a big deal. It means that they were able to pay for the doping
without a paper trail. Also shows even more how the teammates of LA were/are treated. We knew they were second class citizens but I didn’t realize they were expected to use unsafe equipment to finance the dope.
Makes me wonder how it affected the bike was that killed off Hincapie’s 2006 Paris-Roubaix chances. How old was that steering tube?
maybe not
because if Landis is correct . . . that would tend to mean that the doping program was NOT supported with USPS money.
Supported with wide-eyed Lance-supporter money, maybe, but not federal funds.
I realize Hincapie made his choices but as a fan it does piss me off.
I wonder what his career might’ve been. Then again, without his notoriety as LAs loyal man he wouldn’t be as popular in the US.
Hincapie is doing just fine.
I spend a lot of time in Greenville, SC and can tell you first hand that George is reaping the benefits of his services to Lance. Well deserved, I must add. But I don’t think he would be in the same place financially and socially if he had never been a part of the 7 Tours and had won Roubaix. Hopefully his affiliation with Lance will not come back to haunt him, should the allegations ever be proven.
Point taken
But I even think that his career accomplishments as a “super domestique” for eight yellow jersey winners, as well as his role shepherding Cavendish in MSR and TDF last year with HTC and dare I say helping Evans to victory this year would command more respect.
"What his career might have been?"
If you believe the article, Big George was a doper, so maybe his career would have been nothing without LA.Maybe he couldn’t have even got to the last 50k of Paris Roubaix without the stuff.
"My clients dont care shit about romandie or mello johnny" - singhstax
More details
Here. To me it sounds like that at least some of it is normal, or common, procedure. Teams sell bikes at the end of the season, Garmin is already selling some of the bikes riders have used this year (to buy more evilness, I presume).
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Jul 3, 2010 8:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, a lot of U.S. conti teams especially sell everything they can possible
to get some cash for the next season. Like any spare clothes, wheels, frames, water bottles, etc.
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
If its true
It’s still laced with lies.
Landis had never doped and knew nothing about doping until Lance handed him patches?
I guess that there is a lot of truth and a lot of fiction and the fiction is why nothing much will happen
moo
There was not much prior to his stint with Disco
that would indicate doping for FL, beyond reefer, that is.
the story is all about Lance. Landis is irrelevant when it comes to the WSJ.
They print this to get ad dollars and where LA is there is the $$
Maybe but story seems to say hé was 2nd in dauphine then suddenly introduced to doping by la himself. Doesnt pass sniff test for me
moo
Yeah, I noticed that.
How could he get second in the Dauphine against all these dopers when he hadn’t yet doped himself.
There isn't a direct one to one correlation
between doping and success.
Results aren’t evidence of doping.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
Then why bother?
“There isn’t a direct one to one correlation between doping and success.”
“Results aren’t evidence of doping.”
If it gives a significant advantage, and if a large percentage of people are doing it, then how could someone succeed if they were not doping.
I can see how the other end would not be true. Namely that one could dope and still not be successful. If somebody has no talent and is lazy to boot, doping won’t get him to the top. But it may be enough to keep him in the peleton.
But with a lot of good, hardworking and naturally talented riders doping, then no one will win who is not doping if there is really a significant advantage there.
Which is why I don't care about what happened.
If everybody of relevance was doping than it was a level playing field of cheaters. Does that make it right? Absolutely not. Should everything possible be done to make the sport clean? Absolutely. Is the sport on the right track? I think so. Will there always be people willing to cheat? Of course. Will they be the minority and probably get caught or outed? Almost certainly.
If Lance cheated and it can be proven how do you go back and rewrite the history? Look at the best riders of the time. Some have been caught. Others implicated. And the rest would have to be suspicious.
If the feds want to use taxpayer dollars to investigate illegal activity in the past they need to start with George Bush and Dick Cheney. Oh, I forgot we are going to look forward and try to clean up their mess rather than digging up the ugly past. This whole thing makes me sick. I just want to watch the Tour and cheer and be awestruck and inspired by these amazing athletes.
My understanding...
is that since the new administration took office, federal officials are no longer encouraged to trade government favors for sex.
I think it is more a marketing thing
Lance has always sold himself as this great saint of clean cycling. Sure most hardcore cycling fans roll their eyes at this but many of his casual fans will believe it and this could ruin his reputation completely. Shit Tiger Woods lost all of his rep and didn’t even do anything illegal. When the American media starts going off on this he will feel the pain.
Los Geht's Deutschland!!!!
Down with Argentina!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42
Also
no one is preventing you from enjoying the cycling, nobody here will let this affect them.
Los Geht's Deutschland!!!!
Down with Argentina!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42
I will be glued to the Tour
Any I will enjoy the cycling, but I am a big fan of all of the people being implicated…which bothers me.
"Lance has always sold himself as this great saint of clean cycling."
Bull. That is simply your straw man. All that he did, to repeated questions, is answer that he has never tested positive. Show me where he declared that he was a great saint of clean cycling. Show me where he claimed to be a crusader for clean cycling.
but many of his casual fans will believe it and this could ruin his reputation completely.
Oh, there is the same old elitist “we insiders know the truth and the hicks don’t attitude”. Why don’t you let us hicks speak for ourselves. I think that he likely did dope – and I don’t give a damn. Problem with people like you is that you never went after the Pantanis, Indurains, Ullrich, Riccos, DiLucas, Vinokourovs, Bassos, and virtually every other hero of cycling that there has been with the same virulence that you go after Armstrong. You throw out the phony excuse that Lance has sold himself as a Saint. But even that hasn’t been done any more so than with the other guys I mentioned. So, frankly, I think your opinion is hypocritical and worthless.
Worthless enough for you to get all pissy about it
Los Geht's Deutschland!!!!
Down with Argentina!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42
Fyi
you weren’t even close to being on my mind when I thought of “casual fans”. But if you label yourself as a hick who am I to say you aren’t one?
Los Geht's Deutschland!!!!
Down with Argentina!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42
Really doesn't matter about me.
The elitist attitude applies regardless.
I find it elitist that you assume you know how I think
but you don’t and your entire paragraph indicates that. Let me start by saying that I make no secret of not liking Lance or his click. But I know he was doped and have felt like that for years. That has absolutely no reason why I don’t like him, his character and large ego annoy me more. Why do I not hate Basso or Jan? Because I like them as people. I despise Di Luca and Ricco more than Lance but they aren’t talked about as much, when they are you will see negative comments from myself. I have seen Lance reprehend some riders who were caught doping in recent years and I have seen him be a speaker for clean cycling many times. I do not even fault him for this and in fact appreciate it when he does. If you don’t think there are a ton of people out there who think Lance has never doped then you are naive. I do not fault those people either. They don’t have to like cycling as much as I do. Do I know more about what the real story is than they do? No but I remember dirty little stories about Lance from a decade ago and I have seen trends in cycling and why should Lance by acquitted from these observations? When it all comes down to it, that is my opinion and I don’t appreciate you twisting it into your own liking so you can attempt to rip me for it. Next time try rationalizing with me and we can start a civilized conversation.
Los Geht's Deutschland!!!!
Down with Argentina!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42
"I find it elitist that you assume you know how I think "
Unless your thoughts are far different from your words, it doesn’t take a mind reader.
“Why do I not hate Basso or Jan? Because I like them as people.”
Aww, they are shy and poor speakers so you like them. I suppose you’ve got Armstrong’s cancer work down as just so much PR work designed to fool the public.
There is no more point in this
because you will continue to twist my words no matter what.
Los Geht's Deutschland!!!!
Down with Argentina!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42
I do believe Phil has the freedom to like and dislike whoever he wants
Like and dislike are rarely rational decisions. Just because you feel there is a good reason to like one person there is not much point in talking down to others because they don’t agree with the way you feel.
"Like and dislike are rarely rational decisions."
I think I’ve made that point more than once.
“Just because you feel there is a good reason to like one person there is not much point in talking down to others because they don’t agree with the way you feel.”
I’ve been here also. I don’t care who someone likes or dislikes. And I don’t care about someone expressing who they like and dislike. But this goes beyond that. I consider an unrelenting campaign against who I like as a personal insult to me. Even if it’s not the intention, it’s certainly gross and deliberate negligence about what other people feel. And I’m not going to take that quitely.
was just thinking the very same thing
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Jul 3, 2010 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Feel free to not take it quietly
but don’t feel you have any right to insult people here by telling them that their opinions are worthless. That is a one way ticket to Landisville.
"Do you think we are a bunch a girls?...Go and ride some cobbles and you’ll definately know that we don’t discuss perfume and shaving cream." - Dom
Maybe we are all "disgruntled employees"
and no matter what we say, it’s crazy and unbelievable
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
Flying Milkman
@ vlaan: what would Frans Verbeeck say about this?
by frans verbiage on Jul 3, 2010 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Feeeeeeeeeeeelings
Even if it’s not the intention, it’s certainly gross and deliberate negligence about what other people feel.
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.
Next up, you’re going to call Phil H. an intellectual, aren’t you?
hey why DiLuca?
just curious
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Jul 3, 2010 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions
here's elitist....
new users must curb their fucking tongue. less than 1000 posts? then keep inflammatory ad hominem comments to yourself. you’re flinging shit at a long standing and respected member with well over 13000 posts. as an elitist, STFUD.
Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania
hmmm
I’m not sure post count is a relevant marker of anything, myself. Whereas moderation towards everyone and everything I kind of feel is, you know?
"I was just trying to keep warm" - Ian Stannard on finishing third in KBK
i was definitely sarcastic,
but join date and post count was the immediate example my brain came up with at 3 am to exaggerate the point of elitism. now that i’m awake, simple respect for members by arguing the argument and not ad hominem is what i was trying to say. ;)
Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania
Feel better now?
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
eh? i feel the same.
now i don’t understand you! (reference to different thread) the elitism was an example??? and i perceived one member attacking another member and not the argument.
Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania
I was also joking... I try to avoid emoticons, but I should always use them..
(I basically agreed with you by the way)..
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
and i hate emoticons also
but my tone is almost always taken as serious (it is usually never serious). i think i’m an aussie at heart!
Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania
lol
why don’t you quit beating around the bush and tell us what you really think?
Seriously though, I don’t really think statements like “problem with people like you” and “hypocritical and worthless” have a place here. Plenty of people disagree on this subject, but they do so amicably, for the most part. Please try to do the same.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Jul 3, 2010 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Bull shit on that
I’ve been at the Bassos, Pantanis, Vinos, etc. Just as much as LA. Who, by the way, did everything he could to present a ’holier than thou" image.
"I’ve been at the Bassos, Pantanis, Vinos, etc. Just as much as LA."
Gee, I must have missed those. But the Armstrong attacks can be seen continously.
“Who, by the way, did everything he could to present a ’holier than thou” image."
Show me where he did anything to “present a ‘holier than thou’ image” that the others didn’t.
“Finally, the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics: I’m sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles.”
How is that a crusade against doping.
How is that holier than thou? In that article, did you happen to notice Landis mention how hard Armstrong trained? How his own cycling improved. What a fierce competitor Armstrong was. How can you not believe that Armstrong himself dreamed big. How can you believe that his comback from cancer was not a small miracle. Even if he did dope, the guys that he rode against also did – so his reslults were still due to big dreams and intense dedication.
It's holier than thou
in that he sets those who “don’t believe” against others, presumably like himself, who “dream big”. That’s pretty much as holier-than-thou a statement as you ever see. I admit he did not say “I am more blessed by the creator”.
I didn’t say any of that other stuff you mention. I didn’t say I didn’t think he dreamed big. I just gave you what you requested, an example where Lance acted holier than thou.
"in that he sets those who "don’t believe""
against others, presumably like himself, who "dream big".
Nonesense. He didn’t create that division. He was defending himself against their attacks.
You're not really denying he presented a holier than thou image
You’re just saying, he was justified. :)
No, I'm saying that he didn't present
a holier than thou image. I’m not saying he was justified in anything. I’m saying that your examples are nothing but a defense against attack.
All right...
"If you consider my situation: a guy who comes back from arguably, you know, a death sentence, why would I then enter into a sport and dope myself up and risk my life again? That’s crazy. I would never do that. No. No way."
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
26 Feb 2007
Jan Ullrich:
“Today, I’m ending my career as a professional cyclist. I never once cheated as a cyclist.”
You can find these kinds of statements from all of the cyclists that got caught. And of course even more so from the ones that didn’t. Nothing unusual about Armstrong.
Yes, you find them from most dopers,
But Lance is different in that he is still maintaining the facade.
Feel free to use the search function on the site
for Egoats opinions before you throw sarcastic remarks.
restated
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Jul 3, 2010 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions
FL has indicated recently that he worked his way up clean
and then just succombed to pressure from above. I think it’s a reasonable assertion, not saying it’s absolutely true, but believable.
"You know if there's any contact at all Cristiano Ronaldo's gonna go down...maybe even just a puff of wind"
I don't remember the bit about Vaughters inviting Landis
to chill in NYC AND urging him to come clean . . .
That's new, I think.
I don’t think we knew that part before. We knew Lemond urged Landis to come clean, but we didn’t know Vaughters had any contact with him. At least, I don’t remember seeing that before.
forget tracking down paypal records
if anyone needs me to go track down strippers in Austin . . .
oh wait . . . my wife might be lurking and, sad to say, I detest strip clubs.
I just got to ask...
…how much different is this whole story from what was known from Puerto when Basso, Vino, et all were excluded? I know Puerto had physical evidence involved with it, but can’t recall if there was much more then just a story breaking when riders were being excluded. If that’s true – shouldn’t this story do the same (ie. These guys are being investigated by a Federal Prosecutor)…what’s the difference?
Actually, that is the answer I kinda sorta expected...
by JustJoshinYa on Jul 2, 2010 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions
that notwithstanding
your point is well taken. Hence the “LA won’t make it to French Soil” roumors.
I love France.
"what’s the difference?"
Physical evidence.
What I am saying is that I don't think there was actual physical evidence that was known with puerto when the riders were excluded.
My memory is that the exclusion was solely because the “riders were being investigated”. I could be wrong…but I find this whole situation to be very similar.
by JustJoshinYa on Jul 2, 2010 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, I am tired - I meant to say that when the riders were excluded, the Puerto deal was just a story.
Physical evidence was not yet available – I think. It was being investigated…
by JustJoshinYa on Jul 2, 2010 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions
The physical evidence was there from day one
since the starting point of it all was the raid on Saiz and the facility where the blood bags were kept. Back then most of us naively thought that it would be a simple matter of matching bags to suspects and guilt would be easily proven. Funny.
They had the blood bags from the previous tour, right?
Or was it just prior to that tour? My gin-soaked brain cannot remember such details…
"Do you think we are a bunch a girls?...Go and ride some cobbles and you’ll definately know that we don’t discuss perfume and shaving cream." - Dom
What were we talking about again?
"Do you think we are a bunch a girls?...Go and ride some cobbles and you’ll definately know that we don’t discuss perfume and shaving cream." - Dom
+1
Even if it isn’t certain to make it to court, riders are more likely to take a deal if they know their blood is in an evidence locker.
Vlaanderens Mooiste
One other difference
is the biggest source in this story is Floyd, and I can’t imagine ASO wanting to align themselves too much with him or giving him an opportunity for more press. If the prosecutors were speaking on the record about having a case, that would likely be something very different,
Vino was excluded because his team was down to 4 after the acquisition's
Not because, ok I laughed here, he doped on the OP case
May you live to be a thousand years old, Frinky
"Do you think we are a bunch a girls?...Go and ride some cobbles and you’ll definately know that we don’t discuss perfume and shaving cream." - Dom
"Mr. Armstrong had no contact with strippers and cocaine"
ROFLMFAO
(the statement)
Los Geht's Deutschland!!!!
Down with Argentina!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42
Lemond "The crusader for a better cycling world"
to be seen delivering the WSJ in Rotterdam in the morning.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
on a fixie with a courier bag over his shoulder going host hotel to host hotel, team bus to team bus, etc.
Cracking myself up.
Hinault can not be recieving this news very well
I believe a fight in the octagon is in order here.
Los Geht's Deutschland!!!!
Down with Argentina!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42
WTF DO YOU WANT ME TO DO FOR THE NEXT 10 HOURS?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i AM DYING IN ANTICIPATION HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
/runs around house screaming like a psycho
Los Geht's Deutschland!!!!
Down with Argentina!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42
great. the scene of macauly caulkin in the first home alone
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Did you read the Lemond article about peaking on cyclingnews?
The peaking part looks exactly like something that I read from him about 15 years ago. Then he goes off on a crying spree about bad things that happened to him in preparation for 92. Who cares. Then he rehashes the old whine about how the peleton was getting faster and he was staying the same. Boo hoo. Then he goes on to predict that either Lance wouldn’t start the Tour or that he would drop out before going to France. Obviously he knew that the WSJ was planning to publish the day before the Tour and he had great hopes for it.
wsj article was not a secret. was suppose to come out last week.
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
yellow jersey journalism
This is all, news cycle timed event ,sensationalism. If the stripper based, steriod laced ,arm warmers don’t fit-You must aquit!.Landis has Helicopter/ Private Jet noise running around in his Post-Mennonite head.Did the strippers use Velcro[a Swiss invention] or zippers?Can’t we all focus on the sunny, Sunflower side of the street in this year’s TDF? Yesterday’s news, brought to you today, by those sage cycling experts at the WSJ. I thought "Stir It Up " was a Reggae Song ,not a call for dissident mayhem on the rues and routes of France in July. Complete crap!
not yellow journalism at all, in my opinion
the journalist does his research, uncovers some new stuff, talks to as many people as possible. Not his fault that many said “no comment.” He reports these allegations as just that – allegations, and includes criticism of Landis (e.g. ex-teammates commenting on temper/instability).
I don’t see why one should only focus on the positive – that seems like avoidance to me. I get what you’re saying about wanting to enjoy the Tour, but personally, this isn’t going to take away from my enjoyment.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Jul 3, 2010 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
"the journalist does his research,"
“uncovers some new stuff, talks to as many people as possible.”
And just incidentally gets done on the day before the Tour.
Why not? He’s in the business of selling papers. This is the time people are turning their attention to the Tour.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Jul 3, 2010 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions
It's old news, and selling the papers is the only point for the WSJ.
That’s why it’s yellow journalism.
Yellow rags
If a WSJ"Journalist" talked to as many people as possible, and uncovered “new stuff” that allegated that Rik Van Looy bribed Jose Samyn to win the Fleche in 68 or that Hugo Koblet won the TDF in 51 ,enhanced on more than chocolate and edelweiss, would that be an ethical reason for selling newspapers prior to this 2010 Tour? Perhaps,if R Murdoch is your leader and it’s a slow news day.I wish to enjoy theTour as much as the next person,This BS takes away from that immersion in the beauty of the Spokesong. If that is avoidance,I choose to avoid.
by frans verbiage on Jul 3, 2010 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions
I know vlaanderen has already claimed you as his new best friend, but can I be your friend too?
I love this line!
This BS takes away from that immersion in the beauty of the Spokesong. If that is avoidance,I choose to avoid.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
mais,
certainment. Friend. Ever read or see the play " Spokesong" ?It’s the wind beneath the wheels. We’ve all heard it.
by frans verbiage on Jul 3, 2010 4:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I haven't, but now I want to.... it's a gorgeous name and even a putterer like me has heard it....
when the waves on the beach aren’t too loud…
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Check it out
I’m not sure what the copyright status is. I stage managed a production at Beloit College back in the 80’s. It’s based in Ireland and has just the right lilt of love for the wheel and love overall.
by frans verbiage on Jul 3, 2010 4:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Playwright please... anyone here will tell you that reading is my obsession :)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Stewart Parker
I believe. There are car bombs also. Time of the troubles.[All times that] I think this was first produced .in the States,at Yale. 70’s earlyForgive me ,it was a while back.
by frans verbiage on Jul 3, 2010 4:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Now you've got me being pendantic.
While we’re on the subject of reading, Have you ever delved into Tim Krabbe’s " The Rider"?
by frans verbiage on Jul 3, 2010 4:49 AM EDT up reply actions
No i haven't... add to list...
I must admit that as an English teacher I’m consumed by the Classics as always plus contemporary literature…. but I’m always happy to add more things to my Must read list.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
If possible
Get a copy of “The Rider’. The book elicits varying reponses from litterati,but those who have ridden bad roads are unanimous in their praise. Simply the best take on what goes on in your head when up on two, human powered, wheels. Better than Ralph Hurnes” The Yellow Jersey" .In my opinion.
by frans verbiage on Jul 3, 2010 5:14 AM EDT up reply actions
The past is
prolouge, but the Prolouge is coming up.Got to go. I taught English as well. “The Rider” is translated from native Dutch. [ And loses something] They are the tallest people in the world"per capita" and have the biggest heads. Should bode well for Gesink don’t ya think?
by frans verbiage on Jul 3, 2010 5:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I hope Gesink does well, but not better than a few others :)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
poetry notwithstanding?
I’m really not sure I can see how it does?
There’s more detail, certainly, but nowt new.
"I was just trying to keep warm" - Ian Stannard on finishing third in KBK
agree to disagree, I guess
I’m no more a fan of Murdoch than you. But I question your reasoning – this is a tad different than van Looy and chocolate. Efforts to get at what really happened don’t take away from my enjoyment, they enrich it.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Jul 3, 2010 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions
drawing attention to the tour to sell newspapers?
well now, thats a novel idea
"Race radios in Cat 4?"
i heard this article was supposed to run last friday for saturday's edition.
so they waited. it may be in this thread but i didn’t see at first glance…..is murdoch hell bent on destroying armstrong?
Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania
Dear Floyd et al
wah fucking wah, get over it. Tour starts tomorrow and guess what…you’re not it it!
love
bethie
Nothing is impossible when you work for the circus.
Nothing new.. Well.. Thinking Lance didn't dope was a little naive..
But what is remarkable what dope does.. I have no numbers and scientific evidence to proof my point.. But.. it seems that, or I’m just really pro-Gesink here, dope is improving your TT but doesn’t really help your climbing..
Evidence.. Basso before and after..
Lance before and after..
Rasmussen..
Ok.. I have maybe look up other examples but it’s just an hypothesis
Landis has become interesting
Not as much due to his allegations, more his different states of mind.
From the unknowingness ten years ago, to the determination of wanting to become one of the best, willing to do whatever it takes. From being an apprentice, he quickly becomes a bad boy, running his own stuff – he seems to know it’s wrong but it is so well-justified, just by looking at everyone else. Then, the hammer falls and he feels betrayed. By what? Himself? Bruyneel? Armstrong? ASO? UCI? More like cycling in general. A system that he was so much a part off, a system that certainly has only done him good. He then seeks personal justice, trying to get some recognition for his martyrdom for the sport and for Armstrong. Armstrong, who is the symbol of the system – the very same man that taught Landis how to go about, the very same man that later told him to shut up. Armstrong wouldn’t give Landis that last recognition – and so, Landis made the last sacrifice, that being himself. He went public. Nothing mattered anymore, the whole system was to blame, they were all going down.
I think Lanids sees himself as a martyr – in some way, that is true.
by Forstoppelse on Jul 3, 2010 7:25 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Has anyone read the Landis book?
A friend got me a signed copy, back when Floyd was selling himself out for club rides. I got about halfway through and had to stop because the writing was so painfully bad. But holy smokes, that book is chock-full of very specific details about how squeaky clean Floyd was. And now, equally very specific details about how jacked up he and all his buds were. It makes quite the contrast.
Well Tyler hamilton did say there was a mafia of sorts in cycling...
and maybe Lance’s “The Boss” moniker meant something else entirely…pinstriped suits with strip clubs and coke involved and probably made some “offers they couldn’t refuse” to people…but I would believe most of the stuff Landis says, more unbelievable stuff happens in the world on a regular basis so I wouldn’t be surprised if most everything is true but we probably won’t know that for years, when Lance is onto him successful political career
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
Go Away Floyd
I’m surprised a publication like the WSJ would run a story like this. All doping issues aside, how can anyone believe this guy? He gets popped in the Tour for doping. For years he tells us, "it’s not true, I’m clean". He takes money from people to help fund his crusade to prove his innocence. Now, years later, trying to get back into cycling, he’s getting snubbed. So what does he do, he changes his story. He doped all the time and, coincidentally, the people who are doing the snubbing doped with him.
I’m not stupid enough to think doping and cheating doesn’t happen. It probably does, and it’s probably more intricate and complex than any scenario I can image. However, I’m not going to believe the story of a two-faced POS like Landis.
Presumably they run it because there are parts
that they have been able to corroborate leading them to believe the rest may be true as well despite Floyd’s history? They’ve had time to do some factchecking.
the journal usually won't run a piece
without extensive fact checking and confidence. that’s not to say they are perfect, but they are more responsible than some of the others.
Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania,,,,,,,Rodania
Only so many people can keep "popping" up and saying virtually the same thing before people start waking up.
Damn – wake up people. It’s not like Landis is the first or last person to say these things…
by JustJoshinYa on Jul 3, 2010 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
But I still can't believe Landis
No mater what, that guy has zero credibility. Again, putting the issue aside of whether someone did or didn’t use PEDs, he reeks of self serving motives.
actually . . .
what does Floyd Landis stand to gain by ratting out Armstrong?
The first answer would be money . . . but to a guy like Landis who is WIDELY reported as not giving a flying f for money, big deal.
Can ratting out Tailwind Sports give him his marriage back? Will it prevent his father-in-law from committing suicide? Will it take away the sting of having lied to his parents for nearly a decade? Will it take away the sting of knowing that people like you think—with reason—that he’s a liar?
But . . . if you are willing to admit the claim that most everyone (in the top 10 of any GT from say 1994-2008) probably doped . . . why not start questioning Armstrong’s equally self-serving motives for preventing a clear inquiry into his practices?
One Mc to Another
I can’t explain the motives of Landis. For years he was on one side of the fence and now, when he’s not getting his way, he’s changed his course. Vengeance makes people do strange things. The answer to most of your questions, I believe, is yes (sans the father-in-law suicide). Falling on one’s sword is a very likely path to sympathy.
As for Armstrong, like it or not he passes every drug test. Does that mean he’s clean? No. It means he’s never failed a required test. Landis did, and if Floyd learned from LA, why did he get caught?
Different perspective from outside our cylo-centered world
My wife works in cancer research, and to her, this news is devastating. If the accusations stick, it will undoubtedly have a significant impact on Livestrong, maybe even causing its demise. Regardless of what we all think of lance (me included – not a big fan), the Livestrong charity does provide significant funding for research, and maybe more importantly, hope for kids and adults with cancer. Outside the cycling world, Lance is a hero and inspiration to a lot of sick people.
If all of Floyd’s accusations are proven true, it will be good for cycling to finally air all of it’s dirty laundry, but it could have a really negative impact on an area much more important than out little corner of the sports world.
"My clients dont care shit about romandie or mello johnny" - singhstax
To be honest, for that reason alone, I'd like to have had all this stuff left buried..
I’m not a Lance fan either, but because of him Livestrong has provided a great deal of support in the fight against cancer…and yes, I hate cancer too.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
For that reason I wish LA had stayed retired
it didn’t take a rocket scientist to predict a scenario like this.
Knew you'd have an answer Jens... you'd have been a great war crimes bounty hunter.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
well . . . how much does LAF actually pass through to research?
I’ve seen conflicting info about that.
So Eurosport said
That Radio Shack tried to get an injunction to prevent the WSJ from publishing. Perhaps that’s the reason for the delay? I’m asking here.
for your information
For your information, the Supreme Court has roundly rejected prior restraint.
(sorry… couldn’t resist. I have no idea if that’s true or not.)
Well played
"Do you think we are a bunch a girls?...Go and ride some cobbles and you’ll definately know that we don’t discuss perfume and shaving cream." - Dom
The bike sales stuff smells fishy...
The whole thing – Floyds quest to just get a decent bike while riding for the richest team…and this led him to find out about the sale of 50 bikes…it doesn’t make sense and sounds like details were tailored to fit, even with some truths maybe.
This story plays better outside the bike world – I looked at buying a Madone with a shock off ebay last year – they dont cost that much.
50 bikes x $2,000 / $4,000 per bike = $100,000/$200,000. It’s just not enough $.
It is very significant that Floyd say he became very busy while on Phonak, just managing his drugs and blood bags. I believe that.
Much of what Floyd says will be confirmed over time, but it will take time. Years, imo.
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