Memo To Teams: Looking At Their 2010 To Do Lists
by ursula on Aug 23, 2010 4:07 PM EDT
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It's late August; the transfer silly season is in full swing. But still the teams have their agendas, what they want to accomplish this year-and there's still some major items to tick off: the Vuelta, Worlds, and Lombardia. Paris-Tours, Emilia, and a whole bunch of smaller regionally focused races. So let's look at the major teams and see how they've done so far and what they need to do in order for them to feel satisfied once that god-awful month of November reaches out and squeezes all our hopes and dreams into a pulp.
A bit of explanation on how I am organizing things below. With each team I start off with four numbers (yea numbers!).
- What the team earned in 2008 (using VDS points, naturally) along with team ranking in parenthesis.
- What the team earned in 2009, along with team ranking in parenthesis. So far so simple, right?
- What this year's riders scored last year. See the difference between this and what the team did in 2009? Just to be clear, take HTC-Columbia. Last year's team had EBH, Lofkvist, etc. This year's team is slightly different. It has the Velits' brothers, Teejay, etc. so the numbers in this third line includes these guys and not the Eddy Bo/Lofkvist group who are in the second line. I am including this number to see if with last winter's transfers has the team at least earned as many points as the individual riders on the team did last year.
- The last number is what the team has earned this year to date-after Ouest-Plouay and stage 5 of Eneco, and their ranking for this year so far.
Okay, that was confusing I am sure. Let's get on with the teams staring with the best team of 2010:
1) Saxo Bank
-2008 points: 9050 (1)
-2009 points: 8640 (2)
-What the 2010 riders earned in 2009: 6119
-Points earned so far in 2010: 6488 (1)
Work to do: Just follow through. Cancellara should score at the Worlds and the Vuelta TT's. The big question is what the Schlecks, especially Frank, will do at the Vuelta. They haven;t yet shown the ability to focus over two Grand Tours in a row but perhaps Frank's early injury on the Tour will change that. Overall this team is in a transition year even without the Schlecks , etc., leaving, which is reflected in the several very young riders on the team. Obviously that will continue next year but IMO already this year is a success. I could see them getting up around 8000 points for the year.
2. HTC-Columbia
-2008 points: 6642 (2)
-2009 points: 9653 (1)
-What the 2010 riders earned in 2009: 7299
-Points earned so far in 2010: 5876 (2)
Work to do: Remember how much they lost last winter? EBH, Burghardt, Hincapie, Kirchen, Henderson, Barry, Possoni, and Lofkvist. Yes, they bought the Velits', Bak, Goss, and a slew of kids, but integrating these guys should take more than a year even with Bob Stapleton at the helm. So in retrospect it's not surprising that they might not earn as many points this year as their riders did last year and that's what's happening as you can see above....
Or so you might rationalize. The truth is this team is doing almost exactly as predicted-from the riders' past efforts-expect for cavendish and his dental work costing the team 900 big fat points. You heard it hear first: next year this team, even without Greipel, will be scary as the kids grow up.
Anyways, I am not sure if they are targeting anything much other than stage wins by Cav and Greipel at the Vuelta and Britain. Cab at the Worlds? I am now thinking he (or Greipel) doesn't stand a chance. Maybe Goss though. Paris-Tours and Paris-Brussels are a possibility.
3. Astana
-2008 points: 6212 (3)
-2009 points: 6119 (4)
-What the 2010 riders earned in 2009: 4801
-Points earned so far in 2010: 5186 (3)
Work to do: Say what you will about team turnover and all that T-Mob went through in becoming HTC-Columbia, Astana takes a back seat to no one. 2007: The Vino/Kash/Kloden mob that got kicked out of the Tour. 2008 saw Bruyneel/Contador/Leipheimer and the Disco remnants take charge and avoid the ASO sanctions to two Grand Tour wins. 2009 saw the Lance soap opera with all the main guys leaving after the Tour and Vino making a late season comeback. Then this year with Contador essentially leaving after the Tour. Next year is Vino's swan song and the beginning of Kreuziger and Kiserlovski and who knows who else. That's a ton of change. And yet they are still in 3rd place overall.
I see them dropping some as their Vuelta lineup is a fairly weak stage hunting group. But who knows? Vino may make quite a splash at the Worlds and Lombardia. But obviously, with their turmoil this year (not nearly as much as last year) they have had a successful season.
4. Liquigas
-2008 points: 4697 (6)
-2009 points: 5761 (6)
-What the 2010 riders earned in 2009: 5631
-Points earned so far in 2010: 4869 (4)
Work to do: Get back their Giro mojo-and Nibs at the Vuelta may just do that. This is a very deep team, as deep as any in the pro peloton, but don't get fooled: they are very Grand Tour focused. Look for Benna to do surprisingly well in the Vuelta sprints too. They should pass last year's point total.
5. Rabobank
-2008 points: 5014 (5)
-2009 points: 6575 (3)
-What the 2010 riders earned in 2009: 5750
-Points earned so far in 2010: 4772 (5)
Work to do: They took a step up last year as you can see from their 20-08/2009 point totals above. So what stands between them having a 2008 type of year and a 2009 is probably Menchov winning the Vuelta (which is possible but I'm not betting on it) and/or Freire scoring big-time at the Worlds (possible but it's so damn hard to predict Oscarito). The Martens and Mollema injuries hurt this team or else they would be possibly third right now.
6. Garmin-Transitions
-2008 points: 1535 (16)
-2009 points: 4075 (10)
-What the 2010 riders earned in 2009: 3865
-Points earned so far in 2010: 4365
Work to do: Help the Wenatchee Wonder finish off a career year as the best sprinter in the world this year (based on number of results). Help CVV regain his love of cycling. Keep Hesjedal on course in the Canadian races and the Worlds and Lombardia, hope Tuft busts out at the Worlds TT. Those are the targets still to come but already the team should be very, very satisfied with itself. Look how far its come since 08 and look how the loss of Wiggo meant nothing to them. (Buy low, sell high.) Its time we start talking of Garmin as one of the top five teams in the world. I would vote for Vaughters as the best DS in the world right now.
7. Katusha
-2008 points: Didn't exist
-2009 points: 3490 (11)
-What the 2010 riders earned in 2009: 4918
-Points earned so far in 2010: 4025 (7)
Work to do: First, an observation: Katusha was right behind Garmin in last year's standings and they still are now. Both teams are steadily gaining on the leaders. Funny how they are paired, even though they seem so different.
But for the rest of 2010, they, like garmin, can look back at the year to date and be happy even if Kirchen was a bust and Ivanov quietly imploded. (At least he didn't test positive but Ivanov's point drop of 765 might be the largest of the year.) But Pozatto, Kolobnev, and Karpets have also underperformed so far and while both of them could be a factor at the Worlds or Paris-Tours/Lombardia their seasons will still be a step backwards. Katusha does have their A team at the Vuelta and if they do well then my worries will be alleviated but right now I can't tell what this team is actually doing.
8. Radio shack
-2008 points: Didn't exist
-2009 points: Didn't exist
-What the 2010 riders earned in 2009: 3012
-Points earned so far in 2010: 3429 (8)
Work to do: Not much besides win the Tour of Utah. But with this stage racing team essentially done with no Vuelta invite, they have a lot of time to figure out how to reinvent themselves next year with no Lance and little contributions from Levi or Klodi.
9. Cervelo
-2008 points: Didn't exist
-2009 points: 6030 (5)
-What the 2010 riders earned in 2009: 5125
-Points earned so far in 2010: 3070 (9)
Work to do: Oops! Haussler beats Ivanov's fall by 10 points! What a Glorious fall from Grace! But regardless of if Haussler riders the Worlds or not I expect him to pick up some points in some of the remaining races so Ivanov will overtake him by year's end.
Looking at the whole team, they still stand a chance at approaching last year's points totals. Haussler I just talked about. Hushovd is in better shape now than he was in the Tour and the Worlds course is easy on his eye. Tondo will be fresh for the Vuelta and Lombardia, while if anyone can do back-to-back Grand Tours successfully it's Sastre (and not Menchov or J-Rod or whomever else you want to throw out). So while they can't make up for the early season injuries to Haussler and hushovd they could still clear 5000 points. These guys are gonna be very busy starting this Saturday night.
10. Sky Professional Cycling Team
-2008 points: Didn't exist
-2009 points: Didn't exist
-What the 2010 riders earned in 2009: 5296
-Points earned so far in 2010: 3050 (10)
Work to do: Lots. I've come down hard on this team in recent race comment threads and I stand by that. This is the most underperforming team of the year. From paying a premium for too many riders including one guy with exactly one decent Grand Tour result (Wiggo) to not training the very young EBH so he missed the cobbles season to Lofkvist being a non-factor to...HEY! Ivanov? Pfft. Haussler? Don't make me laugh: the rider who's cratered the most from last year to this is Simon Gerrans, down 820 points. Add to these guys riders like KAA (down from 227 points to 0) or Vigano (160-0), Carlstrom (100-0) and man this team has a coaching problem. So they have a lot of work to do if the shit ain't gonna seriously gonna hit the fan before the season's end.
And they could pull out some good results too. EBH at Worlds. Lofkvist at the Vuelta. Um....I'm not seeing much else so, yeah, the shit should be hitting the fan this winter, if it already hasn't.
11. BMC
-2008 points: Zip
-2009 points: Zilch
-What the 2010 riders earned in 2009: 3475
-Points earned so far in 2010: 3040 (11)
Work to do: Just keep doing what they are doing. Evans will get some points at the Worlds and/or Lombardia/Emilia if he enters them. Ballan should be a Worlds dark horse. Be happy at this first year and prep for a step up next year.
12. *Lotto
-2008 points: 3910 (8)
-2009 points: 5428 (7)
-What the 2010 riders earned in 2009: 3700
-Points earned so far in 2010: 2770 (12)
Work to do: Release the Phil-Gil! Hope that Gilbert can approximate last year's fall. Not sure why they didn't set up Moreno for a serious Vuelta push but then I am not brain damaged and I can't figure out how Sargent thinks. Definitely a step backward this year even beyond losing Evans. To their credit they seem to understand this from their heavy involvement in the transfer market.
13. Caisse d'Epargne
-2008 points: 5649 (4)
-2009 points: 5237 (9)
-What the 2010 riders earned in 2009: 5086 (2678 without Valverde)
-Points earned so far in 2010: 2915 (13)
Work to do: Keep as many of these riders as possible through to next year. Really, when you take away Valverde's points, this team has taken a step forward. Lulu has become a Grand Tour dark horse and could do better next year. Arroyo had a wondrous Giro (and still my favorite day of the whole year was the stage where he tried to defend his Pink jersey by descending like a banshee.) If you look at this team as primarily a young team, they have a world of potential and you gotta like their chances to stake a couple big steps forward the next couple of years. They have a stacked Vuelta team which could cause them to crack the top 10 by year's end along with their Emilia and Lombardia results.
14. Lampre
-2008 points: 3820 (9)
-2009 points: 2580 (13)
-What the 2010 riders earned in 2009: 2508
-Points earned so far in 2010: 2800 (14)
Work to do: Um, figure out what's wrong with Cunego? Support Petacchi? Wait for Visconti to become the team leader next year?
15. Quickstep
-2008 points: 4601 (7)
-2009 points: 5273 (8)
-What the 2010 riders earned in 2009: 4503
-Points earned so far in 2010: 2510 (15)
Work to do: First it must be said that this team has fallen further than any other team this year. And its been a group effort. Here are as of today how many points various riders are down from last year: Boonen -460, Devo -265, Chavanel -608, Seeldrayers -350, Barredo -185, Van Impe -240. Christ allmighty that's awful. So to salvage the year? Well its beyond salvaging and like their pathetic Belgian rival team, they know that (I LOVE the Terpstra pickup. Love. It.) Hopefully Boonen can come back and put in a good Paris-Tours* win and maybe Paris-Brussels too. Maybe Chavanel can have a decent Worlds-his kind of course in theory.
* Speaking of Paris-Tours, it is I see nine days after the Worlds RR. That's gonna leave a bunch of potential Paris-Tours contenders with a serious jet lag for P-T. If Boonen regains his health he should be the prohibitive rested favorite there.
16. Euskaltel
-2008 points: 2304 (12)
-2009 points: 3375 (12)
-What the 2010 riders earned in 2009: 2850
-Points earned so far in 2010: 2460 (16)
Work to do: Have Anton podium in the Vuelta. Maybe get Sam San on the podium at Lombardia. Then go home happy.
17. Vacansoleil
-2008 points: ------
-2009 points: 1910 (16)
-What the 2010 riders earned in 2009: 1890
-Points earned so far in 2010: 2355 (17)
Work to do: Excellent but weird year. I mean if I told you in February that this team would have more points right now than all of last year you'd think that Bozic and Hoogie would be having even getter years than last year right? The thing is Hoogie is down 480 points from last year and Bozic is down 515. What they've done right is getting more riders to score. Good coaching there.
18. Bbox
-2008 points: 1295 (19)
-2009 points: 1290 (21)
-What the 2010 riders earned in 2009: 1295
-Points earned so far in 2010: 1860
Work to do: Be happy. They've had a decent year.
19. Androni etc.
-2008 points: 425
-2009 points: 1766 (17)
-What the 2010 riders earned in 2009: 1076
-Points earned so far in 2010: 1538 (19)
Work to do: Find someone better than SELLA! to replace Scarponi.
20. AG2R
-2008 points: 2111 (13)
-2009 points: 1645 (18)
-What the 2010 riders earned in 2009: 1855
-Points earned so far in 2010: 1555 (20)
Work to do: I dunno. I keep falling asleep when I think of these guys and so since I am doing that now, I'll go take a nap. See ya later.
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I was reading along and enjoying and then...
AAAHHH!!!
I would vote for Vaughters as the best DS in the world right now.
I’ll read the rest after I recover.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
The best method of ranking the DS catagory
is by the evilness of their sideburns. So it is Vaughters by a mile.
Just curious
whom would you vote for?
(if you say JB then you can apply the same comment to yourself)
"Until you shoot me off my bike I'll keep looking for a contract" - Jens!
Quitter's People United member # 42
Not sure, certainly not JB
Maybe Stapleton, whether it’s as a manager or DS not sure.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Stapleton is interesting
They win a lot, but there is and have been complaints from former and current HTC riders about the somewhat one-sided sprint focus.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Aug 23, 2010 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions
If I could be unbiased, I would probably vote Riis.
Would make a nice Poll.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Nothing flippant in picking Riis.
He’s got a great team that has success across the racing calendar. I like the versatility.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
I applaud your lust for analysis
Prod or poke fun all you want, you won’t draw it from me.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
We'd have to decide whether
we were referring to sports directors or team managers. I’d say Stapleton is a fab team manager, though he doesn’t really do much with the day-to-day racing. On the sporting side, hmm, maybe someone like Kim Anderson, formerly of Saxo.
And actually, on the subject of sports directors, I’m interested to see what Damiani can do with Lampre. They strike me as a team in need of better direction on the road. Saronni has the business side pretty well dialed – I mean, they’re always getting new sponsors – but on the road, meh…
Yes, true.
I tend to wrap up the management of the team under their leader who I mis-title. And Damiani-can he go anywhere but up? ;)
Ha!
Damiani, it can’t get worse, can it?
Team management – Well, part of team management is hiring talented guys to drive the cars and run the team on the road. So, it’s not totally odd to lump them together. There are some teams, though, were the directing on the road is just so poor, but the business side seems pretty together. I’m looking at you, Lampre.
Garmin have just won their first ever stage race, so I wouldn't call Vaughters the best DS either (not yet).
by blackswangreen on Aug 23, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
That's not true
Two victories in Tour of Missouri, and Millar won something earlier this year.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Aug 23, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Huh? I count at least 7 in the past 2 years
Last year: Jayco Herald Sun Tour, Delta Tour Zeeland, Tour of Missouri, Circuit Franco-Belge
This year: Tour of Poland, Driedaagse de Panne, Delta Tour Zeeland
I really do not understand the truth.--Riccardo Ricco (per Google Translate)
They are the Greipel of teams
"Until you shoot me off my bike I'll keep looking for a contract" - Jens!
Quitter's People United member # 42
by Phil H. on Aug 23, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What stikes me with Garmin
is the sort of opportunistic, almost anartichal approach to racing which somehow leads to results here and there. I don’t think a team can win anything big this way, but with limited stars on the rooster, perhaps this is the right approach.
It's not anarchic . . .
what it is is working towards increasing the marketing potential of the TEAM, as opposed to the marketing potential of the RACES.
As long as the major stakeholders in cycling are the UCI and the race-organizers, nothing of substance will change because the teams won’t have any year-to-year clout.
What Vaughters and Stapleton are doing seems designed to build a brand for a particular team dynamic and strategy that is slightly different than the traditional model: there’s much more of an awareness of “slipstream” and “high-road” than there ever was of “tailwind” or “olympus sarl”
good points
And I think both Vaughters and Stapleton are smart managers in this respect. Riis has actually taken a similar tack with his Riis Cycling branding, though it’s maybe not as pronounced as what Vaughters is doing.
I understand what you are saying
but I am referring to the race tactics, not the management of the team brand itself.
I don't think the two are exclusive.
It’s pretty obvious that Matt White or Ralf Aldag COULD summon out of their memory the tactics to protect a big GC rider, but with the exception of Cavendish, it’s pretty clear that the vibe at both places is that the team can make the rider, and the team’s tactics shape the race.
I think that tactical mission comes from outside the team cars.
In other words, the idea is that creation of a “team brand”—evident in a wide range of tactics and exposure beyond the Tour—will create a more stable marketing platform than the Bruyneel approach. I could well be wrong, though.
HTC team tactic (as in race) seems completely the opposite
to Garmin’s opportunistic approach. The race plan in very rigid, just like it was in the T-Mobil days. I still agree with your argument related to team branding and management however.
the difference, of course, is that HTC wins . . .
For several years there, Walter Godefroot was like the Jack Kevorkian or Dementor of the peloton: riders signed and their careers died or their souls disappeared.
And I’ve seen better execution of team tactics in cat4 races . . .
Kool Aid
Help the Wenatchee Wonder finish off a career year as the best sprinter in the world this year (based on number of results).
According To CQ Farrar has 6 wins. By contrast:
Greipel 17
Cav 8
Petacchi 7
EBH 6
Jimmy Casper 6
Oscar Freire 6
Francesco Chicchi 6
Not meaning to derail your post (which I really like) but I just don’t find the Tyler Kool Aid to be that tasty. Obviously these results aren’t weighted at all and I’m not going to say Chicchi is as good a sprinter as Tyler, but results are results
"It was getting colder and colder as we went up. About halfway up, I started to go a little backwards and as I passed Thor he looked at me and said, "If you lose my wheel I will smash you." I took his wheel and found an extra gear." João Correia
And 5 Tour stage wins for Cav>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2 Giro stages for Tyler
yo Ursula I like Garmin too but lets calm down a bit with the love.
"Until you shoot me off my bike I'll keep looking for a contract" - Jens!
Quitter's People United member # 42
Maybe you two should read more closely: over the season Farrar has been easily more productive by how I am measuring it
Farrrar- 1585 points, results in 17 races
Boonen- 1065 points and results in 5 races
Hushovd-945 points and results in 17 races
Petacchi-930 points and results in 15 races
Cavendish-790 points and results in 12 races
Greipel-682 points and results in 13 races
EBH-620 points and results in 11 races
Freire-596 points and results in 11 races
Goss 512 points and results in 6 races
Bennati-456 points and results in 6 races
Brown-430 points and results in 14 races
McEwen-335 points and results in 11 races
JJ Haedo-310 points and results in 7 races
I could go on but you get the picture. Farrar has been the best sprinter over the course of the year. So what if Cav owns the Tour sprints? He didn’t show up at a lot of other places. You go and count wins, but I find that superficial.
There's a non-silly argument that the point of sprinting is to win...
…though I agree that you can’t compare all wins in all races as if they’re of equal value. Points and results does seem to account for those differences however, mostly.
So what you are saying is how you define the best is important
How about…
If the point is to win and the biggest sprint race of the year is MSR than you could say that Oscarito is the best sprinter of the year.
Obviously I'm not arguing that...
But I can see the point of view that says someone with more big wins than TF, but fewer ‘results’ otherwise, and even fewer points, might be superior.
I’m not sure how you resolve the question, since both views seem reasonable.
That doesn't make him the best sprinter
it makes him a more complete rider. And Cav can frolic around as much as he wants elsewhere when it counts the most he crushed Farrar in sprinting, that assessment comes from my eyes and not statistics.
"Until you shoot me off my bike I'll keep looking for a contract" - Jens!
Quitter's People United member # 42
So you are arguing semantics then.
Good luck. I stand by what I said. Farrar is the best sprinter of 2010.
And serious, noticing that Cav can beat a hurt Farrar at the Tour is like saying Farrar is better because he owned a hurt Cav at Tirreno-Adriatico. What i am doing is looking at their season’s as a whole, not cherry picking races as you are doing.
Now if you asked me if you evened everything up, who is the best sprinter in the world? I’d say Cav, easily. But that’s not what I am saying.
When you say "best sprinter" I read it as "best sprinting rider" which I would argue is not Farrar this year
now if you mean it as “best year for someone defined as a sprinter” I’ll give you that.
"Until you shoot me off my bike I'll keep looking for a contract" - Jens!
Quitter's People United member # 42
Okay. Let's leave it at that.
And with the Vuelta, Worlds and Paris-Tours and Paris-Brussels left, maybe even I will see someone overtake the WW.
Obviously you are referring to Andre Greipel...
"Until you shoot me off my bike I'll keep looking for a contract" - Jens!
Quitter's People United member # 42
Isn't the biggest difference in Farrar's performance over 2009 his spring classic performance?
I had to look at CQ since I don’t have VDS 2009 results. But it looks like he scored huge points this spring in the classics this and essentially 0 last year.
Between him, David Miller and their other currently underproducing classics riders, I think Garmin could have a great spring 2011 if they chose to focus on it as a primary goal.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
by lieutenantmudd on Aug 22, 2010 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
He's won 6 races
It’s all well and good when he get’s points for finishing 6th at RVV, but the point is to win races not to score vds points. No doubt he’s the best sprinter vds wise, and if there were a season long green jersey comp, he’d probably win it. I guess to you that makes him the years best sprinter. To me it’s the guy who wins the most races (meaning legitimate races- sorry Greipel). So maybe we are arguing semantics
"It was getting colder and colder as we went up. About halfway up, I started to go a little backwards and as I passed Thor he looked at me and said, "If you lose my wheel I will smash you." I took his wheel and found an extra gear." João Correia
Meh.
Arguing semantics = having a discussion about the meaning of words. Contrary to popular belief, it’s always pointless at all (even if it can be tiring), especially if the meaning intended isn’t clear. It is, however, annoying as hell when someone keeps changing meanings to protect their claims from objections.
What’s going on here doesn’t seem to be any of that. I think there’s a real question regarding what is the appropriate standard according to which sprinters, in particular, should be evaluated. Ursula has a view on that, and others aren’t quite sure they’re comfortable with it. Related to the questions surrounding it is the further question of what counts as being a ‘sprinter,’ which turns out to have an awful lot of fuzziness involved when the classics come into play. But even if those two discussions are somewhat distinct (and probably both would be interesting to have), neither of them seems semantic to me. Both are, I think, quite legitimately conceptual.
In other words, we’re asking how we should understand what counts as a sprinter, or what it means to be a good sprinter. That’s not a semantic question.
I agree, but I don't think it's semantics
Good for Tyler that he rarely if ever sits up. So he collects points that other sprinters don’t. He should win the green jersey some day soon. But even if he should finish the year with the most points of any other sprinter, he doesn’t earn the title “best sprinter in the world”, just the sprinter with the most points.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
ja
I’d call him consistently good. But I’m not on the Best Sprinter bandwagon for Farrar.
But really, I’m more intrigued by his chances of winning a big classic than I am with his bunch sprint count.
Plus, I think Farrar is a bit like Hushovd
I think he is versatile enough to be in non-bunch sprint finishes – the sprint finishes where the “pure” sprinters have been dropped long ago.
I think Cav is faster than Farrar. I haven’t seen them go head to head in awhile, but that’s what I think. But I think Farrar can win races Cav wouldn’t even try his hand at. And I think Farrar can stay in the group in stages where Cav would get dropped.
(I don’t mean this to denigrate Cav. Having all that fast twitch muscle comes at a cost. Pure speed in exchange for versatility)
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
by lieutenantmudd on Aug 23, 2010 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Tyler was injured last spring,
Broken collar bone in one of the early stage races I believe. He has always targeted the spring races, that’s why he moved to Belgium. In his mind he’s a classics guy that has sprinter speed.
Bah eyeball test
Jens! doesn’t have a shadow because he dropped it repeatedly until it retired, climbing into the CSC team car and claiming a stomach ailment.
by dees ees en drama on Aug 23, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
cav was injured
Which counts for some of his not turning up
if you take results from May onwards, so about when Cav started operating at top level this season, Farrar has 910 vs Cav’s 640. The difference is his win in Vattenfalls or second in Plouay. So essentially one race
Now Farrar was injured at the tour which works in his favour but to say he’s the best is stretching it a little IMHO
by thebongolian on Aug 23, 2010 4:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Cav's faster, Greipel wins more.
VDS writes off whole stage races from Greipel’s calendar.
I used to like Farrar, but there’s a bit much homerism going round.
Greipel will most
likely win bigger races next year when he rides on a non Cav centric team.
Time will tell
He never seems to do well under pressure though.
"It was getting colder and colder as we went up. About halfway up, I started to go a little backwards and as I passed Thor he looked at me and said, "If you lose my wheel I will smash you." I took his wheel and found an extra gear." João Correia
I think he will be more confident
with a more defined role on his new team. I certainly can’t see him suddenly becoming less productive.
I can.
Because, well—now he has to sprint against Cav.
I really do not understand the truth.--Riccardo Ricco (per Google Translate)
So you are predicting
that Cav will win just about all races where he faces Greipel?
Yes.
Isn’t everyone? As long as he stays healthy, he won’t have any trouble beating Greipel.
I really do not understand the truth.--Riccardo Ricco (per Google Translate)
Obviously not everyone, but
your creavat is noted.
Even HTC's B team leadout
Is much stronger than what he will be working with next season.
"It was getting colder and colder as we went up. About halfway up, I started to go a little backwards and as I passed Thor he looked at me and said, "If you lose my wheel I will smash you." I took his wheel and found an extra gear." João Correia
Depends
Looks like he will bring some of the B team with him
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Aug 23, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
And Lotto has a proven record of what exactly?
Organizing sprint teams? Organizing domestiques to support their GC leader at the Tour? What exactly do you see that Lotto does well other than rely totally on the amazing gifts of their best riders?
Did I say they have a proven record of anything?
You’re being ridiculous now.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Aug 24, 2010 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I am. As I said before
Greipel cannot beat Farrar….and Cav…he is above everybody so.
"Last time I had a broken chain nobody waited for me. I had to chase all the freaking way to the finish. It is race!!" Alexandre Perez
Yes and no
Yes – he currently misses the biggest races as team is Cav centric. But it is not just Cav that keeps him of the roster of certain races. And the upside of that this year was he got the Giro as Cav was sent to Cali.
No – as the team he leaves is sprint centric in a way OLO isn’t to anywhere near the same degree – in all races he or Cav ride.
On known evidence he loses to Cav in a straight up sprint, and he will start next year with a weaker team. But a match up has not been seen for a long while – and the prospect makes next year a whole lot more interesting.
In general the current group of
sprinters seems to offer limited collective quality compared to earlier years. This years TdF highlights the situation a bit: Cav won a bunch of sprints by wide margin against elderly statemen such as Petacchi and McEwen. Bring on the Cav-Greipel rivalry.
I wish
but I think The Glorious One will have a better shot at creating a Cav rivalry than Greipel will.
"It was getting colder and colder as we went up. About halfway up, I started to go a little backwards and as I passed Thor he looked at me and said, "If you lose my wheel I will smash you." I took his wheel and found an extra gear." João Correia
as in Green jersey
perhaps, but no chance in bunch sprints.
But MSR is no bunch sprint in a GT but a monument
HH’s CQ sheets show he is mainly absent in GT sprints and not exactly an everpresent in other sprints – Cav’s forte.
He does well, in the main, in classic races and sprints at end of very hard stages or breakways – while being able to sprint if everything on a going day.
When was the last time
HH rode as the designated sprinter in a GT? I don’t know when that was. He looked pretty goos in Switzerland this year before getting hurt. I get the feeling that Thor is losing interest in the Green Jersey (no doubt caused by his slowing down), and would rather focus on one day races. I think 2011 could be a big year for Barbie if he stays healthy.
"It was getting colder and colder as we went up. About halfway up, I started to go a little backwards and as I passed Thor he looked at me and said, "If you lose my wheel I will smash you." I took his wheel and found an extra gear." João Correia
Thor didn't get to have a proper Tour build up filled with sprint training, that was a big cause of his slow down.
Most guys could just focus on one-day racing in March/April and be ready for Tour time in July.
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
by Vlaanderen90 on Aug 23, 2010 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I hadn't heard that
From listening/reading Thor’s interviews, it just seemed that his heart wasn’t in it. I knew he had an illness early in the year. He had another setback, post P-R?
"It was getting colder and colder as we went up. About halfway up, I started to go a little backwards and as I passed Thor he looked at me and said, "If you lose my wheel I will smash you." I took his wheel and found an extra gear." João Correia
He broke his collarbone in May.
Some little girl took him out, if I remember correctly.
I really do not understand the truth.--Riccardo Ricco (per Google Translate)
Thanks
Completely forgot that.
"It was getting colder and colder as we went up. About halfway up, I started to go a little backwards and as I passed Thor he looked at me and said, "If you lose my wheel I will smash you." I took his wheel and found an extra gear." João Correia
"...not training the very young EBH so he missed the cobbles season..."
Sounded kind of strange to me. Explanation?
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
+1
He’s young.. As is Boom.. You can’t say they failed or their preparation wqasn’t right.. Just taht they weren’t totally up for 260km on cobbles and hills..
Unlike Boom or say Sagan
EBH was immediately installed as the centerpiece of Sky. He had a heavy pre-season and his Achilles broke down. He was overtrained by his team and almost every coach in every sport knows you have to be careful with child prodigies.
Funny that you mention Sagan
The rider who had to abandon Tour de Suisse because he was too tired. And he’s a neo-pro, as opposed to Edvald. One would also believe that the centerpiece of Sky has something to say for himself when it comes to which races to start.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Aug 23, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
That right about Sagan!
He started hot and Leeky rode him till they rode him into the ground at Suisse. And he hasn’t done squat since-nor should he. But maybe he’s coming to life with that 7th place at Ouest-Plouay. But they had let him rest after California I’d bet he would have been a terror at Poland and going forward from there.
And yeah you would like the centerpiece of your team to have a say on what races he should race but, do you really want to give that type of decision making to a guy who turned 23 in May? Talk about inmates running the asylum, Eddie is no where near wise enough to be making executive type decisions like that and if Sky management did do that they should be brought up on child neglect charges.
23 year old is one side of the coin (and that's a weak point in my mind)
Third-year pro is the other. Edvald has always struck me as quite smart about what he can and can’t do, he’s not stupid. And if there is a certain age when a rider becomes wise enough, I can only assume that age comes well above thirty. If at all.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Aug 23, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, he might be smarter about what he can and can't do
once he can keep the races straight. You are talking about the guy who, at the sign in for E3 Prijs Vlaanderen, couldn’t remember whether he’d done the race before or not (he had).
I really do not understand the truth.--Riccardo Ricco (per Google Translate)
That's not necessarily about intelligence
I’m very bad at remember names, even of relatives, but I know a lot of less useful stuff.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Aug 23, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
No, it's not necessarily about intelligence
but how can someone make good decisions about which races he can and can’t do if he can’t remember which is which?
I really do not understand the truth.--Riccardo Ricco (per Google Translate)
OK, so we jumped to the idea that he designs the race schedule all by himself now?
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Aug 23, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Have we? I certainly haven't.
You said above:
Edvald has always struck me as quite smart about what he can and can’t do.
That’’s what I was responding to. As to schedule, I’m guessing from what I’ve read in interviews with other racers that the management sits down with him before the season starts and they work out a schedule together. So it should matter at least some that he knows which race is which.
I really do not understand the truth.--Riccardo Ricco (per Google Translate)
That was not specifically about race scheduling
Nor about to his knowledge of geography and history. There are, after all, more aspects of cycling than those, And regarding the schedule, I wrote this earlier:
“One would also believe that the centerpiece of Sky has something to say for himself when it comes to which races to start.”
I guess that when they sits down and have a chat, he’s capable of asking which race is which if he needs to. And that the team can give him an answer.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Aug 23, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
The important thing here
Is that any team that has young talent, which is most any team, needs to treat that young talent carefully. That’s because their bodies are still developing and their minds are too and they don’t have the awareness of themselves and thus the needed control over either that a vet like Sastre or Petacchi or Horner have. Hell, even Horner has remarked that he’s still learning over the past year what is best for his body in racing. There’s no reason to expect at a young kid like EBH to have much of a clue.
And that’s true with any major sport and in every major sport you find management (coaches, managers, DS’s, whatever you call them) who are good developing youth and management who absolutely suck at it, and who manage to mess up kids at every opportunity. In fact I was just talking to someone about US collegiate distance running programs and we agreed that, to take two school, UCLA is a place where high school distance phenoms go to get injured, not develop, and get out of the sport within three years of enrolling.
So I am questioning Sky’s management of EBH, who was brought along so nicely by Columbia. I could be way wrong I know. Let’s see how EBH develops and see how other kids in Sky develop. But I really smelled a rat when EBH got hurt. I just don;t think it could have happened with Columbia.
But there's still no indication that Edvald's beginning of this season was out of the ordinary
Even for 23-year old. You smelling rats is not much to rely on, I’m afraid.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Aug 24, 2010 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions
I think Tony Martin was an over confident youngster this year with Columbia
because he had a very nice quote for being just 24 years old: “I know my body, I have mastered it.” He over did it in the winter and paid for it. He was also being brought very nicely along with Columbia but that’s the chance you take with young professionals because many of them want to be good now and think they have developed enough. It can happen on the best team’s so we don’t know if it would have happened with Columbia or not. It would have been a lower chance with how much experience there is around there but as Figurehead says below, he didn’t really do anything out of the ordinary.
The only thing I can think of is him coming into a new team as one of the leader’s of the squad and wanting to start where he left of last year. That situation probably wouldn’t happen with Columbia because youngsters like Van Garderen, who had legitimate talent, weren’t coming into the place with expectations of big wins and such. It could of happen with many teams, not just SKY.
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
by Vlaanderen90 on Aug 24, 2010 3:03 AM EDT up reply actions
where's that photo from the 5 hour snow ride he did in the off-season?
Both Boss Hog and Devolder lost significant chunks of early season fitness because they tried to tough out the nasty Euro-winter.
Yep.
Devolder is, if anything, the more egregious example.
Yes...blasting Boonen for going to Spain when he was stuck riding a BMX track
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
by Vlaanderen90 on Aug 23, 2010 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
That one has its very own chapter
in the Annals of Ill Advised Hissie Fits.
So making him ride a prologue, 1 full stage and half of another killed him even after a prolonged break?
He was scheduled to have a break until Poland anyways so I doubt that that took so much out of him. There were not great Sagan stages in Poland apart from stage 4. He isn’t going to outsprint Greipel. He is just back on the upswing and probably doesn’t want to be on any top form until close to world’s because that will be a course that will suit him to a T. Why go for shit races when you can slowly build up to a great race? Plouay showed that he is on his was back up because it was unlikely that in a bunch sprint he wouldn’t outsprint Goss and Farrar.
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
by Vlaanderen90 on Aug 23, 2010 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Wasn't the achilles injury a result of a crash a couple of years ago?
I read somewhere that he had messed up his back, causing him to put much more strain on one of his legs. I could be wrong about this.
by quarantanamo on Aug 23, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
You're right
It was mentioned in this article, but it sounds more like a theory (and I can’t tell if it’s a plausible one or not) than fact.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Aug 23, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Time for a Wenatchie Wonder Kool-Aid bath!
UCI standings have Tyler in the top 10. He’s rubbing elbows with stage racers and Fabian. Ha, take that!
Umm...Vaughters isn't even the DS...he is the manager. Matt White is usually the head DS for Garmin and in the team car, calling the shots
Unless we count select races or the Tour of Utah, behind the wheel with the Holowesko Partners feeder team. Whitey is the guy who makes the selections for the big races and runs then by Vaughters but Whiter has final say. You can go for team of the month though for August.
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
Most improved maybe
Garmin is the best team…right now because of Martin, Farrar and Tuft getting the wins and supporting cast members.
Probably manager of the year could go between Vaughters, Stapelton + one other
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
by Vlaanderen90 on Aug 23, 2010 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that's the point I guess I buried here
I am talking just for this year. I see Garmin/Vaughters getting more out of his team this year than the other managers. Stapleton is always near the top IMO; Riis is obviously good too and there are others: some decent, some not so hot.Euskaltel has been interesting from a management point of view for instance. In talking about EBH above, I am implying that Sky management bit off more than they could chew-and not just with EBH. There is the Wiggo thing and Lovkvist and Gerrans way underperforming, and smaller stuff too. Hopefully this was a learning year and they actually learn something. I think Katusha probably learned something from their rookie year too, though I am not clear on what they learned other than not to sign dopers.
Last year I would have put Stapleton as #1 for 2009. Perhaps we should do a poll and thread at year’s end on the best managers for the year.
SKY needs a winner...They were too optimistic with their G.C. picks though I will leave that open for now and see how Tommy doesat the Vuelta
but I totally agree about Garmin. Took a much bigger step with finally getting Farrar down and rider’s finding their niche
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
by Vlaanderen90 on Aug 24, 2010 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Gerrans isn't underperforming particularly, he overperformed last year
Same with Wiggins, probably
Though I do think Sky aren’t too great at the improvisational stuff. Tend to commit to GC or Sprint finish too much even if they don’t have a good target for it, rather than going after the breakaways where guys like Gerrans can pick up wins
Riis is a serious candidate for top manager.
As manager of the team he has set up his team to win big next year by signing Contador. That’s a big part of managing, keeping your team looking good for the next year while accomplishing things in the current year.
Riis's signing of Contador
will be another data-point in the ongoing attempt to determine whether or not Contador can be integrated into a team structure, or whether a team has to attempt to adapt to him.
(Uh . . . oh . . . there’s a post shaping up in here about those few riders who are (sorry Sui) . . . sui generis in that they don’t adapt to a team, the team adapts to them.
That's correct
JV is the public face. Whitey, and to a lesser extent the other DS’ have far more impact on the actual racing side of things. JV was actually banned from being in the team car for a period in ’08.
Excellent analysis of Vacansoleil’s coaching stuff!
And they have balls too! Ricco signing is a proof of that!
I used to be a big fan of the Racer Formerly Known as Bert! But then again, I used to believe in Santa ,Tooth Fairy and innocence of Floyd!
.
Farrar vs. Cavendish
Farrar has won the following this year:
2 Giro stages
Vattenfall Cyclassics
Delta Tour Zeeland
Scheldeprijs
One stage of Driedaagse De Panne
A few very nice wins, though I could at least two… ahem “small” races. o:)
Cavendish has won:
5 TdF stages.
A stage each in the Tours of Catalunya, Romandie, and California.
Cav has the “small” wins to more than match Farrar’s, and his five Tour wins beat the heck out of 2 Giro wins + Vattenfall + Zeeland. So Cavendish has a more impressive list of victories this year, unless you put a lot of weight on Vattenfall & Zeeland. I don’t see any reason to count those victories any more than a Tour victory.
Looking at minor placings, Farrar has the upper hand because he is simply better at staying in the mix. He seems to have more slow twitch muscle than Cav, but less than Thor.
Farrar:
2nd & 3rd at the Tour de France, 3rd at the Giro, 4th at the Giro, 5th three times at the Giro (that’s eight top-fives).
5th at a Monument
2nd, 3rd, & 9th at other classics
Cavendish:
One 2nd in the Tour
One 3rd at Tour of Cali
2nd and 3rd in two “Minor Races.”
Farrar has racked up a large quantity of meaningful results, but hasn’t won any of the year’s biggest races. Cavendish has the biggest wins of any sprinter in the peloton, but not a whole lot else. So the question of “who’s better this year” really comes down to the kind of results you are most impressed by. If you like consistency & CQ/UCI/VDS points, then Farrar is King. If you want to look at a rider’s few biggest accomplishments, then Cav is Da Man. Simple as that.
Jens! doesn’t have a shadow because he dropped it repeatedly until it retired, climbing into the CSC team car and claiming a stomach ailment.
by dees ees en drama on Aug 23, 2010 11:49 PM EDT reply actions
Most likely to score late in the season:
Saxo could realistically win the Vuelta, the WCRR and the WCTT.
Liquigas have Nibali, a favourite for the Vuelta and a fair pick for Lombardia.
Katusha could do much in the Vuelta if Rodriguez tries to improve his 8th (?) on GC last year, and Pozzato is apparently leading the Azzuri in Geelong.
Don’t expect quite as much from the rest.
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