US Worlds Team "Taking Shape"
by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 25, 2010 1:34 PM EDT
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PrintOr so says Cycling Weekly, though as a British magazine I think in light of the Cav-Farrar matchup anything they say here reeks of treachery. Still, the scuttlebutt is that the US will construct around Farrar, but most of the big names won't be available (yes, Tyler remembered to mention Levi). Craig Lews, Tejay Van Garderen and Brent Bookwalter are in with Farrar, leaving five more spots. So much for actually taking shape.
In order to add some value besides pointing at someone else's work, here's what I'd do: add as many Gar-men as the US team can swallow. Zabriskie is a likely fit assuming he's interested in contesting the time trial. Christian VandeVelde says he's going to the Vuelta to help someone, so it's possible he might be interested in performing the same trick in Australia with an even bigger reward in the offing. And he could be the #2 for the time trial, though Bookwalter may have earned that slot. After that, it gets tricky: guys like Stetina, Cozza and Peterson come to mind, though the worlds road race is not kind to the untested. But hey, the only way to get tested is to show up and race. Cozza seems like a guy who's always useful, so I'll give him a vote.
Another strategy is loading up on BMC guys. [And by implication, I am indeed suggesting avoiding Cavendish's HTC teammates.] Jackson Stewart and Jeff Louder are both good guys for this race. Louder in particular is on good form, though we're five weeks out so stay tuned.
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lance isn't going?
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
he already won.
Cozza, CVV and Dave Z would be a great start. I think the trick for the US is going to be to try and drive things hard enough to drop the pure bunch sprinters (specifically Cav), and yet controlling it enough to protect Tyler. The course itself shouldn’t cause many problems, but we all know it’s the riders that make the race.
"It was getting colder and colder as we went up. About halfway up, I started to go a little backwards and as I passed Thor he looked at me and said, "If you lose my wheel I will smash you." I took his wheel and found an extra gear." João Correia
They've already given Cav the drive he needs by writing him off
No way Tyler makes it to the finish without Cav there as well (sorry Chris). And I don’t understand why others like the Italians are motivating Cav by claiming he won’t be there to contest at the end. It may happen they way they are seeing it, but why spur a guy like Cavendish?
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Agree.
Can’t see Farrar dropping Cav on the hills and if they both join a mass sprint, I give Cav 70% chance of winning against all sprinters collectively. Odds simply not worth building a race plan on imo. Instead build a team around CVV and DZ as captains with the purpose of dropping spinters such as Cav and have Farrar tag along in case the plan turn sour.
How often have we seen Cav in a pure sprint? One without a leadout train?
And, more pertnet to the Worlds, how often have we seem him in the decsve break and winning from there?
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Cav outclassed the entire sprint group on one or two occasions during
this years TdF with very little support. He can do it again.
But them was bunch sprints. I don’t see the World’s coming down to a bunch sprint. It’ll be a group away or a rder soloing it.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Why do people forget how Cav earned his leadout train.
By winning races on his own. I’m certainly not going to downplay the importance of teammates, but there are other strategies to employ to get the win. Essentially it comes down to the legs. If he has the legs like he did at MSR where George was actually holding him back, then Betinni may be eating some crow.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Not forgetting at all
and if he’s in the lead group at the finish, he wins. But he’s going to need help chasing breaks and a helpful wheel the last couple of times over the climbs.
"It was getting colder and colder as we went up. About halfway up, I started to go a little backwards and as I passed Thor he looked at me and said, "If you lose my wheel I will smash you." I took his wheel and found an extra gear." João Correia
Cavendish benefits if there are multiple strong teams who neutralize everything
and are working to set up a sprint. If that’s the case, he’s more than capable of profiting from another team’s work.
Cavendish is in trouble if the strong teams ride an attacking race with multiple breakaways and lots of start/stop chasing.
Yea, what he said.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Except Cav may not have the team
As resourceful and driven as he is, he’ll need teammates. Specifically teammates that will shepherd him on the climbs and make sure no significant breaks get away without him.
"It was getting colder and colder as we went up. About halfway up, I started to go a little backwards and as I passed Thor he looked at me and said, "If you lose my wheel I will smash you." I took his wheel and found an extra gear." João Correia
Tyler was saying that may not help him either
in a Pez interview the other day
PEZ: Cav only has two team mates in Melbourne – is that good news for you?
I wouldn’t agree with that; I’ll need all the help I can get to bring back the break – the more strong sprinters’ teams that are represented, the better. It’s a certainty that there’ll be a break gets away and if there was strong, committed, nine man GB team there to help bring it back then that would be good for me
Farrar clearly believes (as he should) he will take the win over Cav
should it all boil down to a mass sprint. I think Cav would be very happy should Team USA plan such an ending.
At least Tyler's smart enough
To not give Cav any further ammunition. I agree that Tyler could benefit by others chasing down breaks, but Cav’s going to need a lot of luck re: punctures, mechanicals, etc… Certainly others are going to try and isolate him, right? They must have learned something from MSR last year.
"It was getting colder and colder as we went up. About halfway up, I started to go a little backwards and as I passed Thor he looked at me and said, "If you lose my wheel I will smash you." I took his wheel and found an extra gear." João Correia
Agreed with Cav needs luck in avoiding
accidents at key points along the road. However in the final, everyone needs a bit of luck to win the worlds. If Farrar sits with five support riders on the final hill and gets a puncture, his chance to come back is very limited anyway.
Agree
Cav needs luck, and to benefit off other, stronger teams doing the work. His teammates only job should be to stick with him as long as possible. It is a tribute to his talent that he remains a rider others still seem to have to worry about despite such a small team.
(I know it isn’t a GT sprint – but he seems in the position Oscar or Robbie are often left in in a GT when rest of team is supporting a GC hope – and they are around for the finale enough without teammates)
Tyler a very interesting rider in the context of the worlds.
More than good enough to envisage full team backing (particularly in the seeming absence of other US riders tipping their hat into the ring), good enough classics rider to put up with some hurt along the way, but not good enough of a climber to go with certain other (types) of rider that can really lay it down to the field on the hills and then try to stay away.
On balance probably favoured by a race that ends in a sprint of sorts.
He/US just has to work out how to still be there for one – ideally without Cav, and even if that is achieved he is similar enough to riders such as Goss, Davis, Greipel, Breschel, others that they will probably survive to the end with him- although imo he is better than them more often than not.
Spain, Italy, Australia, Germany among the teams with 9 riders also have sprinters who can climb – so some sort of sprint not totally out of the question.
One thing to remember
worlds is at classic distance, not at GT stage distance.
I know Cavendish has won MSR, BUT that’s really winning a 6 hour motorpace session with a couple of bumps at the end.
This’ll be different.
Totally agree
Cav needs US to commit to Tyler, Spain to commit to Oscar (quarter/half done), Germany to commit to Greipel (half done), hope a few other teams with fewer numbers (e.g., Norway, Denmark) play along – and then have the legs to stay with them.
But if all those teams have a vested interest in getting a sprinter to the line, then his chances of staying up there improve a little
So the more teams like Australia and Italy
that move away from relying on a sprinter makes Cav’s chances start to dwindle.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Have to say that's probable
And arguably so do the chances of Tyler, Greipel and others.
Aus/Italy (Coni dependent) have back up sprinters so have two cards to play, like Aus and Spain. Nederlands team seems sprinter light. Russia, Belgium, Switz and France unlikely to be sprinty either.
Ironically Tyler and Greipel emerging as Cav’s best bet for on the road allies
The problem for Britain though
When/if the race unfolds where the sprinters just can’t keep in touch, Britain is screwed. For the other large teams (all the ones you mentioned) they are gonna have to use resources at the minimum to keep the breaks under control. Probably though they will be joining in the attacks themselves. If the US is gonna be a player at all they have to have a couple of their guys (more like 4-5) not babysitting Farrar.
When it comes to strength in depth...
USA appears to be the new Luxembourg.
Bunch of slack-jawed faggots around here. This stuff will make you a god damned sexual Tyrannosaurus, just like me - Jens! Voigt, Predator (1987)
Dave Zabriskie
is always a good idea. For everything.
edible chammois cream? what the hell is wrong with you?
by With Ferentz Like These... on Aug 25, 2010 1:54 PM EDT reply actions
I think they should send Kiel Reijnen...he could provide just as much support some of the Garmin's
and can climb outstanding
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
Horner?
My first thought is where is Horner, but I guess he must be passing. His ride in the World’s a few years ago helped get him back to Europe with Saunier-Duval (Prodir maybe). He is not riding the Vuelta, so I thought he might be interested.
I’d like to see John Murphy get a shot, but I might be a biased on that. I’m not sure what his schedule is for the remaining of the season, but he had some good results earlier in the year.
Matthew Busche has had some good results lately with a 3rd at the Tour of Denmark and 16th at the Tour of Austria. I believe last year was his first as a pro, so I think he has made some big strides in a short time. World’s might be good for him.
Tommy D might be coming into form and he is riding the Vuelta so it might fit into his schedule.
Domestically, Ben Jacques-Maynes and Scott Zwizanski are high up on the NRC standings.
good question regarding horner
i’d like to see him out there. he’d make a great road captain.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Yeah! You right, where is Horner?
Intense first half of the season? Age? Hey! send him anyway, so we can read his racing report after the race.
I used to be a big fan of the Racer Formerly Known as Bert! But then again, I used to believe in Santa ,Tooth Fairy and innocence of Floyd!
.
Racing reports
Yeah, I really enjoyed his racing reports. During the Tour (and all season), his were better than anybody’s. I’d like to see him become a commentator, but he’s smart enough to go DS on us.
After Giving it some thought
here is what I think might be the US team (I didn’t go back and look at results – just thinking about who is out there):
Tyler Farrar
Craig Lewis
Tejay Van Garderen
Brent Bookwalkter
Ted King
Christian Vande Velde
Tom Danielson
Jonathon McCarty
Danny Pate
Alternates:
Matthew Busche
Steven Cozza
Peter Stetina
John Murphy
Tom Petereson
This is assuming Horner, Levi and George decide not to ride. I’m not sure the team I have has many people to lead out Tyler. John Murphy might be a better fit than some of the others, but I’m not sure who I would take out.
I think Dave Z would be great for the Time Trial with either Bookwalter or Taylor Phinney taking the other spot (does Phinney even qualify?)
or
what he did to get sent to Denmark.
"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell
by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 25, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Struggling to make up the numbers Uncle Sam
Maybe there’s not enough pride or $s involved…just a thought.
next time....don't forget the gravy!!
I blame Levi
"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell
by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 25, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Prepare yourself... I blame Lance.
To the extent that if he had gotten on board for this WC it would have brought the other guys for sure (GH, Levi, Horner, Zabriskie, CVV). We could have had a hell of a team to both support Tyler and to go in breaks. I don’t get the lack of interest at all.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
He talked about it early in the year, didn't he?
Lot of talk about helping Farrar win but that was before all the Floyd stuff (and Farrar re-upped with Garmin)
Yea he was hyping it early in the season.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
His world has change a lot since
My official ELPMO position is that it was more of a Farrar-wooing move but there is a chance it was honest and if his season had gone better and he had less legal issues to worry about he would have done it.
But LA would never use mother's little helpers!
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
I'm so old
I know what you’re talking about. Gah!
"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell
by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 26, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
i'm not old
and i know.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Well I'm so old I rarely know what you're talking about, so this was fun :)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Stupid question alert....
Besides the jersey, glory, fame, history, etc – what’s the WC get for the win?
Ie. Is there a cash prize? (I am guessing there is, but how’s it compare, say to winning a classic or the Tour?)
Also, anyone know if there is any splitting of prize money with the “team”…???…
Just wondering if money is why top pros (Americans) don’t seem as motivated to do the WCs as other countries…Just feels that our “stars” sit out the WCs a lot.
Yes, I will have an Ultra Liberal MoCo Latte please.
A kangaroo
"Until you shoot me off my bike I'll keep looking for a contract" - Jens!
Quitter's People United member # 42
who wouldn't want a kangaroo?
Yes, I will have an Ultra Liberal MoCo Latte please.
by JustJoshinYa on Aug 26, 2010 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions
A Wallaby?
"Until you shoot me off my bike I'll keep looking for a contract" - Jens!
Quitter's People United member # 42
Try a bilby, they're smaller again...
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
My theory for why they skip is that almost none of them in year's past have had no chance to win at all
so they see no reason to show up.
It is hard to believe but the World RR champion receives a stunning 7,667 euros. To put that in perspective, Jonathan Cantwell won probably double that in a weekend of racing criteriums in illinois this year. The total price purse 16,101 euro. Countries might do something similar to the Olympics where they if riders receive medals they get a bonus and I’m not sure if the U.S. does the same thing. Most money probably comes from endorsement deals and what not…but really, America besides George and now Farrar (sorta-kinda) doesn’t have any legitimate classics racers so unless the course is tailor-made for them, forget about it.
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
by Vlaanderen90 on Aug 26, 2010 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions
None have had NO chance to win?
so they have all had the chance?
/mind explodes
"Until you shoot me off my bike I'll keep looking for a contract" - Jens!
Quitter's People United member # 42
Wow...grammar fail
Let’s make that none of them had any chance to win at all.
Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!
by Vlaanderen90 on Aug 26, 2010 2:44 AM EDT up reply actions
ok, your original theory was what I was thinking - lack of shot, so f' it. Seems American enough to me...
The money is paltry – but I know that the title opens up opportunities to earn in the future as others have noted.
Yes, I will have an Ultra Liberal MoCo Latte please.
by JustJoshinYa on Aug 26, 2010 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Yah...so...
The jersey is still worth bux. Just in post-Tour crit dollars alone.
"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell
by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 26, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
In terms of money, it’s usual to bid for the services of your teammates. So take the seventies, Maertens and Merckx were offering BF 100,000 to each rider who’d help him win.
Obviously then the race s going to be worth dfferent amounts to different riders.
About eight or nine years ago one of the Italians said the same thing was still going on the night before the race, but today the natonal federation might also dip into its pockets. You used to be able to count on support from trade-team-mates, but that fades once the nat feds start putting cash on the table and you get stories lke British Cycling bannng Wegelius for ridding for club not country.
What’s in it to win it? The endorsements, yes.
There are also the local races, where you get an appearance fee, which might explain why, say, an Italian might be more hungry for the Rainbow Jersey than an Amercan. There’s simply more of those races in Italy and they pay better, than there is in the US.
Your own sponsor might cough up some extra cash, seeing as the Rainbow Jersey is so distinctive and the camera likes to linger on it. But at the same time there’s stories – at least one concernng Festna – of teams not wanting the Rainbow Jersey, feeling it takes away from the branding on the team jersey.
So really, all in all, it’s a pretty complex financial equation which is dfferent for each rider.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
It's funny that here in America...
we celebrate the best football or baseball team in the world, but only US teams will participate in the tournaments (World Series). But, then when it comes to cycling, we’ll say the best cyclist is the one that wins the Tour. Wonder if that will still be the line if Contador wins it 8 times?
Yes, I will have an Ultra Liberal MoCo Latte please.
by JustJoshinYa on Aug 26, 2010 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions
But the World series was named after a newspaper, The World, not designated to be a global series.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
http://roadsidephotos.sabr.org/baseball/name.htm
Origin of the Name “World Series”
One baseball myth that just won’t die is that the “World Series” was named for the New York World newspaper, which supposedly sponsored the earliest contests. It didn’t, and it wasn’t.
In fact, the postseason series between the AL and NL champs was originally known as the “Championship of the World” or “World’s Championship Series.” That was shortened through usage to “World’s Series” and finally to “World Series.”
But, anyway, I was just trying to say that this sport does contain worldwide participants – other do not. Anyway, was a stupid question from a stupid mind (mine), so pointless to drivel onward…
Yes, I will have an Ultra Liberal MoCo Latte please.
by JustJoshinYa on Aug 27, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
A riders contractual value is directly proportional
to his Palmares. Winning the worlds will probably double the earnings for a rider in future years, unless his is already a big star.
I don't think lack of winning$ is the issue either.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
If I haven't run out of stupid questions...
Has the WC ever forced riders to participate? Ie. Countries could only send their top xx riders, based on some point system?
If a rider chose not to go, the slot was simply left empty.
Yes, I will have an Ultra Liberal MoCo Latte please.
by JustJoshinYa on Aug 26, 2010 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions
If
I meant, “I haven’t run out of stupid questions”
Yes, I will have an Ultra Liberal MoCo Latte please.
by JustJoshinYa on Aug 26, 2010 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions
After a certain amount of stupid questions
one should question whether it is the questions that are stupid or the mind producing them.
Also I would assume you can not formally force a rider but you could ask some Italian and Russian riders and some may tell you there was some pressure there(just to go with the mafia stereotype there). The organizers are pretty powerless when it comes to riders who race I think,
"Until you shoot me off my bike I'll keep looking for a contract" - Jens!
Quitter's People United member # 42
Um
play nice.
"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell
by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 26, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I...was...not...being...serious
"Until you shoot me off my bike I'll keep looking for a contract" - Jens!
Quitter's People United member # 42
Phil can spot one when he sees it (similarily minded - I think...)
:)
It is kind of a dumb question, I know. Just wondered if there ever was a “rider ranking” system that qualified riders for Worlds – instead of these federations picking their riders…
Guess not…
Yes, I will have an Ultra Liberal MoCo Latte please.
by JustJoshinYa on Aug 26, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
If you mean
has the UCI only allowed a federation to come if they bring rider X, I seriously doubt it. The federations control the UCI, not the other way around.
"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell
by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 26, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
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