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Ranking the Rankings

Today seems like a good time to check in on one of our major initiatives for the 2010 cycling season -- our Podium Cafe World Rankings! Note, these rankings and numbers are identical to the data we use to calculate the VDS rankings, on the theory that our little game is a pretty good reflection of reality. But the bigger point here is that we have tried to come up with a definitive ranking system, for a sport that doesn't really have one. The final word on this project will have to wait til October, but let's take a peek in on our rankings and see how they stack up against some of the other alternative methodologies. Top ten only:

UCI World Rank

Podium Café!

CQRanking

CyclingFever

Contador

482

Contador

1996

Contador

2092

Greipel

4553

J Rodriguez

428

Evans

1630

Evans

1549

Petacchi

3639

Cadel Evans

390

Vinokourov

1482

J-Rod

1464

Contador

3376

LuLu Sanchez

363

A Schleck

1360

LuLu Sanchez

1428

Farrar

3306

Gilbert

304

Cancellara

1347

Vinokourov

1318

Evans

3235

Vinokourov

283

Gilbert

1345

Cancellara

1266

Sagan

3172

Andy Schleck

258

J-Rod

1300

A Schleck

1187

McEwen

3037

Cancellara

250

Farrar

1135

Sam-San

1178

J-Rod

2895

Sammy Sanchez

239

Boonen

1065

Gilbert

1113

JJ Rojas Gil

2883

Gesink

239

Sam-San

1020

Greipel

1091

Graeme Brown

2864

This isn't the full list of rankings, no doubt, and if you know of a better one, feel free to do more comparisons. But I've been a CQ fan for a while, and the UCI is the governing body of the sport. I added Cycling Fever because I really like their work.  So what do we see?

Star-divide

The first thing to do here is to eliminate the right and left hand columns from serious consideration. Sorry, Cycling Fever, but any methodology that calls Andre Greipel the #1 rider in the world is flawed. Now, the Cycling Fever folks do excellent work in general, so I am open to correction here, but this data comes from the Cycling Fever Ranking page, so I don't think I am misreading this. My hunch is that they are not weighting wins heavily enough, so that Greipel's "shit races" (thank you for this endless source of humor, Mark Cavendish) are on the level with Contador's grand tour exploits. That doesn't tell me enough, IMHO.

The UCI's rankings must also get the heave-ho. We've discussed this before, but their "methodology" is less science than marketing. No sentient being would give the Tour of Poland more weight than Paris-Roubaix, and yet there it is. But hey, I'm not a UCI basher. For example, I think they have a wonderful rulebook. Oh, and killer offices.

That leaves the Podium Cafe and CQ Ranking. There are two main differences in our methodologies: the point scales and how we handle races before Het Nieuwsvolk. CQRanking hits the ground running on January 1, meaning the TdU and the Arabian Peninsula stuff gets counted. They also include more minor races than we do, though I don't think those results are affecting the top ten individual rankings. Our decision not to include every minor race had to do in part with how those results might skew the team and country rankings. Save that topic for later.

As for the scalings, I can see a couple points that illuminate the differences. Joaquim Rodriguez got 240 points from CQ for winning the Volta a Catalunya and 200 points for finishing 8th in the Tour. From us, he got 150 for the Volta win and 225 for 8th in the Tour. Between the two, our Tour points were pretty close but they gave JRod 60% more points for the Volta than we did. I definitely think their Volta scores are too high -- for example, second in the Volta is scored equally to 9th in the Tour de France, and I personally think the latter is far more important and difficult -- but I guess you could question why our Volta rankings are so low. [Answer: because the 2009 Volta was thoroughly uninspiring, so we downgraded it. Overraction??]

Another big difference is the treatment of Luis Leon Sanchez. Of the 1424 points awarded LuLu in CQ, 35% of those were in races we didn't count. Twenty-two percent came from races too early on (TdU and Algarve) while we declined to include the Circuit de la Sarthe, where he cleaned up, in favor of some other French races. I'd have to go back and review the thinking, but I know we talked that one over a good bit, so I stand behind how we made our decision. In any event, while LuLu is a great racer, he has utilized races of questionable quality to vault ahead of guys like Cancellara, Andy Schleck, Farrar, etc., in their poll. For me, I'll take the historic cobbles double and E3 Prijs over Paris-Nice, San Sebastian and some smaller wins.

Someday we will find a way to give some credit to a few of the earlier races, but otherwise I am feeling pretty solid about our ranking system compared to the rest. Thoughts? I am very open to constructive criticism here. And not in a Chairman Mao Hundred Flowers I am taking down all your names for future retribution sort of way.

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I for one,

welcome our new German sprinting overlord.

Jens Voigt doesn’t know where you live, but he knows exactly where you will die.

by OnTheRivet on Aug 6, 2010 5:33 PM EDT reply actions  

I will explain CF's ranking..

All races high enough to be ranked.. I guess… EEH dunno get the same value. Points can be earned by placing in stages. No GC. So Place 1 100, 2 80, 3 70, 60, 50, 40, 30, 25, 20, 15, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 for place 20.. Because Greipel won that ,any small races.. He’s highest placed

by Frinking on Aug 7, 2010 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think the best way to handle the weighting

is to largely measure the strength of the fields in the race the previous season.

There is a reason why you weigh the Tour so heavily- because the cycling teams themselves do.

This principle applies across the board it seems to me. Of course, there is the specialist issue, Contador is not riding P-R. But that can be factored in as well.

Obviously you do this in a not formal way already, but you could do so.

by BTD on Aug 6, 2010 6:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Agreed

we do this a bit by feel — Catalunya didn’t feel like a strong field in 2009, so we kicked it way down. “strength of field” isn’t easy to pin down and changes from year to year. But yes, that’s the key criterion I think.

"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell

by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 6, 2010 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you have an easy tool for measuring strength of field

Take you previous year’s rankings and calculate the races with the strongest fields.

by BTD on Aug 6, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

I can see that. Maybe top 20 or 25 gets it done.

"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell

by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 6, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Perhaps

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rvmartin2/ could help with that.

Ceci n'est pas une signature.

by tedvdw on Aug 6, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

(of course, it’s all on CQr as well)

Ceci n'est pas une signature.

by tedvdw on Aug 6, 2010 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am resistant to just take what happened last year

races change in strength. Sometimes a lot like Catalunya from Chris’ example, and sometimes in a subtle way like Sarthe did this year. Ultimately there’s no way to get things perfect and with that I prefer to believe our eyes and minds.

by ursula on Aug 6, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's fair

but clearly there was an editorial decision to not weigh the Tour more than the Giro and Vuelta, which obviously does not fit your eyes and minds, but more your hopes.

If the idea is a pure objective ranking, then measurables are pretty appealing.

by BTD on Aug 6, 2010 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sad but true.

The Tour has a stronger field than either.

by ELVISGOAT on Aug 6, 2010 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I do believe that it is quite difficult to compare the best Italian GT riders with those from other countries

Italians rank the Giro more highly than the Tour, they aim their seasons for it, and while preparing they mostly use Italian races (Most Tour riders use French/Spanish/Belgian races to prepare) to prepare for the Giro. After the Giro few carry much form into the Tour.

This year for example Basso is likely a better GT rider than either Menchov or Sanchez but since they never faced each other this year on equal form we will never know. Since an Italian who wins the Giro is set for life (he will always find a ride on and Italian team of some kind or other), the Italians do not need to target the Tour the same way that everyone else does. If the same was true of the Vuelta we may never have seen an on form Valverde or Contador at the Tour in the first place.

'When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning' - Dr. Reiner Knizia

by bought with blood on Aug 6, 2010 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hm

I would say that Italian GC guys rate the Giro higher than the Tour only until they think they’re ready to step up and get a big result at the Tour. From that point they rate the Tour higher. I seriously doubt you’ll see Basso plotting for a Giro win next year. He only aimed for it this time because I don’t think Liquigas had much confidence in his ability to win the Tour after last year’s slow comeback. Now that he’s built himself back to his pre-suspension form, it’s goodbye Giro. Remember, Nibali had planned to skip the Giro this year for the Tour as a sign of his progression.

"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell

by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 7, 2010 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

well, basso has stated that he wants to go after both the giro and tour next year as well

"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind

by umwolverine on Aug 7, 2010 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here's a radical idea

Score each race according to the startlist. I can see why that wouldn’t be so practical, though.

by Triki on Aug 7, 2010 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

To expand

If Cycling Fever rankings had any effect on racers’ decisions on where to race, then attempts to establish race schedules aimed at leading that ranking system would be seen in racers’ schedules.

What I like about how PdC tries to do it is you are trying to reflect the criteria that the cyclists and their teams have established. I guess a little bit more formality (or perhaps transparency on how you do it)would be in order.

Here is my subjective view of who have been the best cyclists this year – Contador, Cancellara, Evans, A. Schleck, Gilbert, Vino, JRod, Gilbert, Menchov, Petacchi.

As you can see, my ranking put in very heavy weight on the Tour. But I do that because I think the riders and the teams themselves do.

One caveat- I think Igor Anton has been great this year and his decision to skip the Tour does him a lot of damage in a ranking. I assume he is aiming for the Vuelta, as others might be also effected.

by BTD on Aug 6, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gilbert twice

My brain is vaporized today.

by BTD on Aug 6, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Once

for each 75 races he does!

"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell

by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 6, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

See what happens

when you turn a novice into a Spring races aficionado?

by BTD on Aug 6, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

worth the risk

"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell

by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 6, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

agreed. I watched the TdF and that's it until finding PdC

A couple years later, I’m in Belgium. PdC has a tendency to make you spend all year thinking about Spring.

"Thanks again, Floyd Landis, Yellow Jersey Wearer: Nuisance Category"

by PopUp Rolen on Aug 6, 2010 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ha!

Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...

by TheFigurehead on Aug 7, 2010 2:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

I take this as a sign of things to come from deep within Chris' subconscious

Riccardo Riccó will dominate the Tour de France in 2011
(and possibly Stefan Schumacher will dominate the Giro)

by Jens on Aug 7, 2010 4:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Chris

If you were Christaian Prudhomme (yikes) I am sure you would quickly learn that there are a few cobbled alpine climbs ….. ;)

moo

by Willj on Aug 7, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

a couple of thoughts (not that i know much, if anything, about these things)

for the earlier races, such as tdu, oman, qatar, algarve, murcia, etc, why not include them in the prior year calendar, so that the vds calendar year would run from march (omloop) to february.

also, when considering races for the vds, imho, a race that has live streaming should be considered as an addition to the vds races. as can be seen this year, eurosport is expanding their racing coverage. just look at the past few days for instance with ursula’s “stage raceaggedon”: four stage races, and only one of those had no live race coverage.

cheers

"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind

by umwolverine on Aug 6, 2010 6:10 PM EDT reply actions  

I don’t like the idea of having the competition run like that. I like the current calendar for the competition.

But maybe the rankings could be January to October. We could rank the riders on the entire season, but only earn points starting in March.

"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"

by ncrow on Aug 6, 2010 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

It should be possible to have non scoring (VDS) races.

This would then differentiate the VDS from the World Rankings.

'When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning' - Dr. Reiner Knizia

by bought with blood on Aug 6, 2010 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

More programming

Maybe Superted can crack this one in the offseason. But we definitely didn’t have time to finish that this year.

"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell

by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 7, 2010 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Another option, perhaps...

Start the season (i.e. finalize teams) at the usual time, but give points for the “pre-season” races… just boost a rider’s cost to compensate—say 1 point of cost for every 50 points earned in the preseason. So you can have your TdU wonder and his points if you want them… but you have to pay.

Cazzo, it's going to be a bloodbath! The Mortirolo is a horror, absolutely interminable. -- Michele Scarponi

by tgartner on Aug 7, 2010 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

or run a separate comp that closes the day before HNB, wherein the next one starts. We’ll sort it out. Ursula is running 10,000 virtual seasons on his computer based on these scenarios, and he and Majope are flying to MIT to analyze the data next weekend.

"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell

by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 7, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

what exactly is the point of nonscoring vds races?

"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind

by umwolverine on Aug 7, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

To make the PdC world ranking, hopefully, the most accurate rider ranking

PdC can use its own criteria. But if you ignore 3 months of races, the rider rankings would be slightly off – even if those 3 months wouldn’t affect the overall too much

"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"

by ncrow on Aug 7, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

What one can see

is Andre Greipel is far superior to Mark Cavendish and that isn’t even debatable…

"Until you shoot me off my bike I'll keep looking for a contract" - Jens!
Quitter's People United member # 42

by Phil H. on Aug 6, 2010 6:13 PM EDT reply actions  

Rolling rankings are better than annual race type ones

Thus CQranking is the best, and Cuddles is world number one at least until the World Champs.

I think I read the UCI are planning to change their ranking to something less stupid? No arbitrary division between the world and continental rankings, and a two year rolling system

by William H on Aug 6, 2010 6:14 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree with the roilling

Cuddles is the best is funny though.

by BTD on Aug 6, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's easy for him to be the best on a rolling cycle

He’s done three Grand Tours in a row. He had a great fall last year and a great spring this year. The cards will never be so stacked in his favor again for a rolling 12 month ranking.

"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"

by ncrow on Aug 6, 2010 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

A Grand Tour thought/question

Something that has been rolling around in my head is how to compare the Grand Tours with each other. We (VDS) weight the Grand Tours the same; CQ, UCI and I think other places weight them differently. I am tending to think we should do likewise.

Otherwise our system rocks the hardest.

by ursula on Aug 6, 2010 6:19 PM EDT reply actions  

I did not know that

I figured you weighted the Tour as the highest, then the Giro and then the Vuelta.

by BTD on Aug 6, 2010 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

weighed

not weighted. Nice English from me.

by BTD on Aug 6, 2010 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

From a ranking point of view I agree

Not so sure from a game point of view. Contador shouldn’t be a must pick, and it would be bad if he costed half a team too. Also, it might make things too dependent on the one race

by William H on Aug 6, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

GTs

Yeah, I think this might be the one place where the game makes us act a bit differently than we otherwise would. I didn’t want to skew to the Tour too much. And anyways they’re the Three Grand Tours, and I didn’t want to have a debate about whether the Giro should be scored higher than the Vuelta. But maybe we give the Tour a little extra something for 2011?

"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell

by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 6, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I love the Vuelta

But the Giro has the stronger field no? Is that even debatable?

by BTD on Aug 6, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

In the early 2000s

the Vuelta was better. But since Puerto, no.

"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell

by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 6, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eh

by what measure? I’d say it’s pretty mixed. They’re practically dead even in our country rankings (Spain leads 11,258-11,236), slightly larger lead for Spain in CQ’’s rolling rankings but they’re 1-2. Italy have more top-level teams. Italians have wins in a wider variety of races. Subtract Contador and Italy would be a bigger presence by almost any measure. So I guess you can argue it either way but I wouldn’t say that Spain is far stronger.

"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell

by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 7, 2010 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder if what you say is because of Spain's never ending regional stage races.

Hear me out. Spain has a pretty homogenous set of week long races. They tend to last 5 or 6 days and are decided by a big climbing stage with the main option on weather to have a TT in it or not. A homogenous set of races produces a homogenous set of riders, starting with the best stage racer of all (what a surprise in retrospect) and going on down thru Caisse’s and Euskaltel’s lead riders (and their alumni that have gone to other teams) ten on to the relatively very few Pro Conti teams and the Conti teams. All of those riders are trying to do the same thing. They are all more or less poor copies of Bert.

There are very few sprinters and only one of real note (sorry Klodo) and he’s aging, a holdover. IMO I think there are a bunch of riders who could have at least as much success on cobbles as Van Der Flecha but they never get a real chance. Again Flecha is the exception that proves the rule.

Spain is fairly good with chronomen because they feature in about half of their stage races but very few of the big butt-type of chronomen like Cancellara or Grabsch. Spain’s good time trialists have to be able to climb too.

So the end result is less of a variety of rider than Italy and even many other countries. They have loads of talent their races shape them all to be the same type of rider and so they actually underperform as a country since other countries have races that don’t fit the one style that Spain excels in.

But that style I’ll bet performs way better than any other country in stage racing. It’s no coincidence that two of the last three great stage racers (Indurain, Armstrong, Contador) are Spanish-and probably the next one will be too. Comparing countries in this sense; comparing Spain with Italy is almost like comparing apples and oranges.

by ursula on Aug 7, 2010 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

OK

nothing to object to there. And if Lt. Mudd was only referring to stage race quality, I would concede that ESP > ITA. As a cycling nation more broadly I would disagree; Italy is stacking every conceivable competition except the grand tour GCs.

"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell

by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 7, 2010 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

I was referring to grand tours

And the Vuelta having a weaker GC field (apparently) than the Giro despite Spanish stage race talent

"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"

by ncrow on Aug 7, 2010 3:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

poor Rojas didn

this is easier than rbjhan i hope....

by JessicaH on Aug 7, 2010 2:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

didn't even get a sorry from ursula....

but yeah, i agree with you. it’s the races shape the riders.
say, Noval, if he’s from Belgium, probably would be a good cobbles guy.

this is easier than rbjhan i hope....

by JessicaH on Aug 7, 2010 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

This year it very much is

Basso, Nibali, Evans, Vino, Scarponi, Arroyo, Sastre for the Giro
Menchov, Anton, Nibali, J-Rod, Lulu, Arroyo, Mosquera, Sastre?, Sammu?, Kreuziger, both Schlecks and pretty much every top sprinter alive for the Vuelta.

"Until you shoot me off my bike I'll keep looking for a contract" - Jens!
Quitter's People United member # 42

by Phil H. on Aug 6, 2010 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

No I don't want to skew too much either.

But it must be said most everyone else weights the Tour more than the Giro which is weighted a little bit more than the Vuelta. Its not much of a debate really. Even majope would agree with that.

But yeah I don’’t want the Tour to have too much weight.

by ursula on Aug 6, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

IMHO

Giro = Vuelta < Tour

"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell

by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 6, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

for next year

"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell

by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 6, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

If that were the standard...

Tier 1: Tour of Flanders, Paris – Roubaix
Tier 2: E3 Prijs, Gent Wevelgem, Ardennes races, Amstel, Het Nieuwsvolkblad
Tier 3: Giro
Tier 4: Tour
Tier 5: everything else

"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell

by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 6, 2010 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some

not enough.

"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell

by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 6, 2010 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not a chance!

'When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning' - Dr. Reiner Knizia

by bought with blood on Aug 6, 2010 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

blasphemy

"Thanks again, Floyd Landis, Yellow Jersey Wearer: Nuisance Category"

by PopUp Rolen on Aug 6, 2010 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

MSR over Amstel indeed

Amstel is a 200k neutralised zone, and then 30 minutes of actual racing.

by tgsgirl on Aug 7, 2010 5:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ha!

As opposed to 250 km and 15 minutes?

Ceci n'est pas une signature.

by tedvdw on Aug 7, 2010 5:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good point, but I still like MSR better.

Helps that it’s the first classic of the year, so I can’t help but be excited. Amstel is just warm-up for the real Ardennes :)

by tgsgirl on Aug 7, 2010 5:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

MSR = most overrated race evah

"Thanks again, Floyd Landis, Yellow Jersey Wearer: Nuisance Category"

by PopUp Rolen on Aug 6, 2010 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I differ without begging

No race that finds Davis Phinney attempting to hitch a ride at an Italian Tollbooth in 85[after abandoning] or witnesses Sean Kelley’s world class descent, on his Vitus 992, in 92 can be overrated.Lombardy is overrated IMHO.

"Waar is die Idioot?" R. McEwen to F Dostoyevsky-Post Stage 6 2010

by frans verbiage on Aug 7, 2010 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Small shit races ahead of the Giro?

No way

"Until you shoot me off my bike I'll keep looking for a contract" - Jens!
Quitter's People United member # 42

by Phil H. on Aug 6, 2010 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with you

I download most of the races. I rewatch Tier 1 and 2 way more often than I rewatch Tour stages – even important Tour stages. Classics are just more entertaining.

"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"

by ncrow on Aug 6, 2010 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

you can say Italians way the Giro much more…well yeah and Spaniards the Vuelta(although not as much it seems). But when it comes to neutral riders I see both riding at about the same levels.

"Until you shoot me off my bike I'll keep looking for a contract" - Jens!
Quitter's People United member # 42

by Phil H. on Aug 6, 2010 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

As long as we all know the rules

The end effect is the same. We spend our 150 budget on maximum points and the GTs being equal on points is part of the strategy. It makes the game more interesting to me.

It doesn’t really matter what values we assign to it in a game. It doesn’t change the reality that the Tour is the big show.

The only drawback in my mind is the PDC World Ranking is a little less accurate.

"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"

by ncrow on Aug 6, 2010 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Please don't do that..

It will make teams more TdF minded.. While the Tour don’t deserve that..

by Frinking on Aug 7, 2010 2:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

How do you know? By your own admission, it's not a race you can see much of.

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Aug 7, 2010 5:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not a TDU fan, and it gets way too much weight in the UCI rankings...

But to not count it at all is a bit harsh I think. It’s a race that gets targeted by people (ie, there’s people saying they really want to win there), which to me means it should count for something. Though not too much.

by tgsgirl on Aug 6, 2010 6:22 PM EDT reply actions  

I feel some not so minor races get excluded. But I get that it would be a lot of work to add them.

That is a definite advantage that CQ has. Starting the season in February: it seems a bit snobbish, sorry. Also the UCI’s ranking system has a real effect on the importance of races, so it can’t be ignored. I agree that generally the strength of the field should be the measure. It cheeses me off a bit if people ride one race in the year and get some of the highest scores, but that’s not neccesarily unfair. It’s hard to judge which system I agree with most because I’d need to know a few rider’s seasons inside out, and compare them as wholes. The Cyclingfever ranking is a funny one, though. Even if it’s biased towards numbers of victories, what’s McEwen doing there? No offence.

by Triki on Aug 6, 2010 6:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Even with just a quick glance

I think PdC’s ranking is better in a few ways. Cycling Fever is just silly. Seeing Lulu so high up on UCI and CQ rankings jumped out at me as odd, especially ahead of Cance. Like Chris pointed out, E3 and the P-R/ Flanders double trump Paris-Nice and whatever Lulu has doen which hasn’t caught my attention.
 
The diversity of riders on our list is a bit better. I actually like that Boonen is on ours because I think he has been stellar this year, just a notch below Cance in almost everything. Too bad he couldn’t make the Tour and make the Green jersey comp even better.

I think you wizards are the best at keeping on top of things and tweaking them to make improvements.

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Aug 6, 2010 9:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Diversity

yeah, I like that we have more of a balance of classics and tour riders. That was certainly planned. One of the differences between us and the others is that we are trying to strike a balance for our interests as well as the teams. Yes, we rank races in accordance with the teams’ priorities, but the list of races we chose had to do with my interest in seeing a real balance between classics and tour riders, so that people’s teams weren’t 80% grand tour guys. I want my game to give people a reason to check in on the Ronde van het Groene Hart.

"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell

by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 7, 2010 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

So who's with me?

Who else says that Gilbert will top the VDS rankings by the end of the year?

by ursula on Aug 6, 2010 10:04 PM EDT reply actions  

Chris

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Aug 6, 2010 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well

I did subtract him from my team for Boasson Hagen, so in a way I have guaranteed this.

Srsly though, of the guys in front of him only Vino and Evans seem like they’ll still be out to get a few results.

"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell

by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 7, 2010 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Did you say Vino?

Yes, he may very well top the damn rankings, isn’t he done racing yet? Or A. Schleck actually, he’s doing Vuelta… anything else?

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Aug 6, 2010 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Andy

is riding for Frank at the Vuelta, so while you never know, I’m guessing he won’t score a ton of points.

"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell

by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 7, 2010 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sounds like a potential 1st or 2nd place with a stage win or two.

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Aug 7, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

We'll see

He’s coming down off a huge high and trying to build a team, so I don’t smell a big Andy attack, but he’s capable.

"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell

by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 7, 2010 2:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

J-Rod

"Until you shoot me off my bike I'll keep looking for a contract" - Jens!
Quitter's People United member # 42

by Phil H. on Aug 6, 2010 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tell me of someone else

who can win Vuelta stages, finish high on GC and will probably do the Italian October races and can contend there? He is just behind Gilbert as well.

"Until you shoot me off my bike I'll keep looking for a contract" - Jens!
Quitter's People United member # 42

by Phil H. on Aug 7, 2010 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Another funny!

You think he will do all of those things?

by ursula on Aug 7, 2010 1:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

I am definitely with you...I'm picking his for world's podium if not the win

and then multiple late season podiums (if not wins). I hope he gets the top honors

Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!, Tommeke!

by Vlaanderen90 on Aug 7, 2010 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

The PdC rankings look pretty good... especially compared to the competition.

I do think that giving more weight to the TdF and including the early season races are no-brainers to make the ranking more accurate.

I also think some re-weighting within other categories might be in order—for instance, surely Fleche Wallonne and Amstel Gold are a bit above races like Plouay and Vattenfalls?

The balance between classics and GTs is a VERY subjective thing… really it’s apples and oranges. The PdC top ten feels pretty right, with four classics guys in there but not at the top. On the other hand, it feels wrong to me that a GT stage win is worth less than a Category 6 win in a one-day race. Wouldn’t mind seeing some tinkering there.

Cazzo, it's going to be a bloodbath! The Mortirolo is a horror, absolutely interminable. -- Michele Scarponi

by tgartner on Aug 7, 2010 3:03 AM EDT reply actions  

Stages

well, we give the GT stages a lot of cred in the media sense, but a lot of them are raced by a small handful of people… while other stages are bloody armageddon. So I dunno… scores reflect something in the middle I guess. And some of those Cat-6 wins are pretty decent.

"Good thing I never said out loud that I was pulling for France, before this all started." -Mark Blacknell

by Chris Fontecchio on Aug 7, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

How many points

did Ted, Albertina, Mr Van P etc. get for doing the Tour de Flanders cyclosportive?

moo

by Willj on Aug 7, 2010 3:52 PM EDT reply actions  

PdC rankings look good to me

though obviously i’m biased. The only thing that stands out to me is Basso not in the top ten. But i guess he’s done nothing besides winning the giro. Oh well, i guess he can live with that.

by yeehoo on Aug 9, 2010 8:31 AM EDT reply actions  

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